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Soon, Historic Second Impeachment Trial against Trump Begins; Aides Say, House Impeachment Managers to Lay Out Devastating Case that Trump is Responsible for Riot at U.S. Capitol. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired February 09, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: It is the top of the hour and a really significant day. We're glad you're with us. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Today, the first day of former President Trump's second impeachment trial. This time, the senators, turned jurors, will determine if the former president himself incited last month's deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol.

The Democrats' goal, take lawmakers back to that terrifying day using video footage and Trump's month's long campaign to overturn, question, diminish the election results. Impeachment managers are looking to convince Republicans if Donald Trump should be barred from running for office as well.

HARLOW: Any moment now, those House impeachment managers will release the final pretrial brief basically laying out their plan to take on Trump's defense. That defense will be focused on claims of unconstitutionality, political motivations and First Amendment free speech rights.

Let's get to all of it. Our team is on Capitol Hill. Let's begin with our colleague, Lauren Fox.

Lauren, what is the rest of the week and it seems like into the weekend is going to look like?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONT: Well, that is exactly right, Poppy. Look, Today will kickoff with a four-hour debate about this question of whether or not it is Constitutional to be holding this impeachment trial at all, given the fact that former President Trump is to longer in office. We expect that by the end of the day, there will be a vote on this question of constitutionality and that it will come down along the same party lines that we saw just a couple of weeks ago when the Senate voted on a similar resolution and a similar question.

We expect five Republicans would likely vote with Democrats, 45 Republicans voting against that question, saying that it is not constitutional. Then we expect to have two days of arguments from the House impeachment managers. They'll have 16 hours followed by 16 hours from the former president's defense team. After that, there will be four hours allotted to senators to ask questions and these questions come in the form of written questions that the presiding officer will read and then deliver to whoever they are directed toward.

After that, there could be a vote on witnesses or documents. We are still unclear whether or not House managers will request either of those things. After that, there will be closing arguments and then that final vote on whether or not to convict former President Trump.

Now going into this trial, we have seen a lot of evidence that Republicans have largely made up their mind over whether or not this is constitutional, arguing that it is not, at least many of them. That probably gives you a pretty good indication that not a lot of Republicans are going to be willing to convict Trump and not the 17 needed to actually convict him.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Although we should note that some of those Republican senators have said that even though they voted for that motion, they didn't necessarily vote that it was unconstitutional, just that they want open debate. Anyway, we'll see if they hold to that.

Let's bring in Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju. Manu, senior aides to the impeachment managers are telling you they intend to lay out a devastating case that Trump is responsible for the riots. How do they plan to do that and particularly without necessarily calling witnesses?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. They are planning to lay out a compelling story looking at video evidence that we have seen come out through the course of the last several weeks as well as testimony from insurrectionists, charted insurrectionists, and how they said that Donald Trump was the reason why they were there and the reason why they acted and they were listening to Donald Trump.

We do expect some new evidence as well at trial, things that we have not seen yet. It is unclear exactly how these managers got this information. They have not shown their cards about exactly what that new evidence is. But we are hearing more about that they plan to at least bring out something that we have not seen yet.

Now, also, Democratic aides to the Democratic managers just told a group of reporters they expect play to lay out a, quote, devastating case against the former president. They said this is not going to be like a constitutional history lesson of sorts, this is going to be in the words of one senior aide more like a violent crime, criminal prosecution because that is what it is.

Now, today, as Lauren said, the argument is going to be on the constitutionality of this case. The three Democratic impeachment managers will lead that charge on the Democratic side. That is going to be led by Jamie Raskin, the lead manager, followed by Joe Neguse, who is a Colorado Democrat, and also David Cicilline, a Rhode Island Democrat. They're going to be making the arguments on the Democratic side. The Trump attorneys will make it on their side. And then there will be that vote on the constitutional question.

But the Democratic managers, guys, are going to try to make the case the constitutional question is different than the question on the merits and could they convince Republican senators to separate those two out, that is the big question going forward.

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SCIUTTO: Yes. Initially, they'll lean more on video than on constitutional lawyers, et cetera, like we saw last trial. They're aware of people's attention spans, maybe. Lauren Fox and Manu Raju, happy birthday, thanks very much to both of you.

RAJU: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: All right. Let's turn to CNN Senior Political Analyst John Avlon. Okay. So different players this time around from the last impeachment trial, who should we look for including from the president's defense?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANAYST: That is right, guys. Well, as you know, Donald Trump had a hard time locking down his legal defense this time around, but he settled on a team led by two people. We've got David Schoen and Bruce Castor.

Let's start with David Schoen. He's a trial attorney and might have first surfaced on Trump's radar and was a member of Roger Stone's legal appeal team. And he has a history of taking on unpopular clients, including the Ku Klux Klan and accused mob bosses.

He was also notably asked by Jeffrey Epstein to take over his defense before Epstein's death and has subsequently said that he does not believe the fact that Jeffrey Epstein committed suicide while in federal custody.

He's also a former law professor at Seton Hall a regular conservative commentator on cable news.

Now, Bruce Castor, his colleague, is a former Montgomery County P.A. district attorney. Just outside of Philadelphia. He is best known for declining to prosecute Bill Cosby back in 2005. And that was an elected position. And he was challenged in a subsequent election by someone who believed Cosby could be prosecuted. Cosby, of course, was prosecuted, and now he's in prison.

He also served as a solicitor general and acting attorney general for Pennsylvania. And, interestingly, his cousin served on the president's defense in the last impeachment trial. He's a House Republican staff attorney.

So expect those folks to be leading Donald Trump's defense in this historic trial.

HARLOW: And they will be, John Avlon, up against the impeachment managers that will be led this time by Congressman Jamie Raskin. AVLON: That is right. It is Jamie Raskin. He's going to be the lead manager joined by nine of his colleagues and rising stars in the Democratic Party. But Raskin is going to be really the compelling figure, the tip of the spear of this argument. He is a former constitutional law professor at American University, author of two books on the Supreme Court cases, serves on Oversight and Judiciary and Rules Committee, served three terms in the Maryland State Senate.

But he is coming into this moment also under the weight of incredible, unbearable personal tragedy, having lost his son to the disease of depression at the end of the New Year and indeed buried his son the day before the attack on the Capitol. He is somebody who is deeply inspired by his love of the Constitution and he's going to be taking this case to the president on the floor of the House today.

HARLOW: And his son was following in his footsteps in law school at the time. John Avlon, thank you very much.

AVLON: Thank you, guys.

HARLOW: Shan Wu is with us, former federal prosecutor and CNN Legal Analyst.

Shan, you put this great little video, a minute clip on Twitter the other day, trying to explain to everyone sort of what is about to happen. What is the biggest thing you're looking out for today and tomorrow, really, when the arguments get underway?

SHAN WU, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well what I'm looking for is how visceral and visual can they make this because it is like a violent crime. I used to prosecute violent crimes. And it is really compelling evidence when you have victim testimony, people who can make you understand the violence of that situation. So even if they don't have witnesses, as Manu was pointing out, there is an enormous treasure trove of evidence here which could convey the violence, can convey how hectic and dangerous that situation was. So the better job they can do of making it visual and visceral, the more persuasive it will be.

SCIUTTO: we had Robert Ray on last hour, of course, defended Trump in his first impeachment, and I asked him the question. I said, okay, if you buy this argument that, constitutionally, the former president could not be tried even though he was impeached while he was still president, what is the sanction for presidents who abuse their power in the last days or weeks of being in office. And he said, well, you could prosecute them criminally, not via the impeachment process. What is your answer to that?

WU: Well, it is true, you can be prosecuted criminally, but there has to be a political remedy for a political figure, and that is in the Constitution, that is impeachment. So if we were to buy Ray's argument on that, then there is no political remedy and any official can just kind of skedaddle out of there right in the last minute to avoid any sanctions.

HARLOW: Well, what is going to be the biggest test here, Shan, right? There is the argument from Anne Milgram, an attorney on last hour, about this is going to largely circle around sort of Brandenberg versus Ohio and the Supreme Court precedents all the way back in 1969? Do you think that will take the focus or do you believe it's going to be an argument over the constitutionality of even having the trial?

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WU: Well, they'll open up with the constitutionality for four hours, and that is -- it is equivalent of arguing jurisdiction in a regular court trial, and that is appropriate. That is not going to go anyplace. I mean, it's going to come down to a party line vote and there is very solid evidence that this is constitutional.

I think the First Amendment defense, Poppy, is very much of a red herring. Even if this were a criminal trial, which it is not, the First Amendment gives very limited protections under Brandenberg for inciting violence.

So I really think -- free speech through laws. Impeachment is not a law that abridges free speech. It is the mechanism to remove bad officials.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this, Shan, big picture. If we end up in a week or two where the winds seem to be blowing with another acquittal, perhaps some Republicans but not sufficient to convict and remove and prevent from running again, is the impeachment process, in your view, diminished, to have two in the span of a little over a year, largely along party lines, you know, issues like witnesses being blocked in the first trial and not pursued in the second trial, I mean, where does the process of impeachment stand?

WU: Well, I don't think that the process is diminished. I think this presidency is greatly diminished having gone through two impeachments. And it is a political process. That is what is so important for all of us to remember for our viewers to look at. It is not a court process. And politics is very messy. And it is a matter of persuasion. There is an appeal to passion. And that is what this is going to be about.

So I think it is actually playing out the way democracy is supposed to play out which is kind of a messy process that keeps moving forward.

SCIUTTO: Yes, lots of sausage-making going on. Shan Wu, always good to have your point of view, thanks very much.

WU: Good to see you.

SCIUTTO: Well, we just spoke with Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, who warned of dangerous consequences if former President Trump is not convicted. But can the trial sway enough sitting senators to make that happen?

Plus, the insurrection was a deadly and destructive day that will go down in American history, no question. CNN journalists who were there inside revealed what they saw what disturbed most.

HARLOW: And then later, exactly how many coronavirus variants are spreading right now in the United States and how dangerous are they for you? The Biden administration is moving to answer those key questions ahead.

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SCIUTTO: Just a few hours from now, we will begin the second impeachment trial of former President Trump. Last hour, I spoke with Illinois Congressman Republican Adam Kinzinger, one of the few Republicans who voted to impeach Trump and who is now willing to say that the former president must be held accountable for his actions, not only on January 6th but for his inflammatory rhetoric throughout his presidency.

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REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): We always had this kind of rule that governed presidents in terms of you're supposed to try to unite even in divisive times, you're supposed to encourage people's better angels and instead what we've had for the last four years, a president that is focused on division, stoking the darkness in everybody's heart.

And I fear what happens is there will be another president some day that sees that as a model and decides he or she is going to emulate that, and that is frightening.

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HARLOW: We're joined now by CNN Political Commentator and former Republican Congressman Charlie Dent, as well as our Presidential Historian, Douglas Brinkley. Good morning to you, gentleman.

And, Congressman Dent, if I could just begin with you, because Adam Kinzinger doesn't know if he'll have to pay a big political price for this, but he's made clear step by step by step in this really powerful op-ed in his great interview with Jim that he doesn't care, right, that if he loses his seat, so be it.

You wrote just a few weeks ago, this moment is a reckoning for your party, for the Republican Party. I wonder what you think this week tell us about that reckoning.

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Yes. Look, first, Adam Kinzinger is a very good friend of mine and he is absolutely right that there needs to be accountability of President Trump, former President Trump. It is simply out of control. The party is in a very bad place, as is the country. And Donald Trump has acted as an accelerant for many years. He's like gasoline on the fire.

This country always has divisions and there is always tension and anger. And the job of the president is to tamp it down and this president did just the opposite.

And so I think that Kinzinger is correct. There is a reckoning that is going to be coming to the party. Will the party be able to continue as it is? Can it embrace both Liz Cheney and Marjorie Taylor Greene? Many Republicans, like Kinzinger and myself and others, are looking for a new direction, whether that means a new faction within the Republican Party or a new faction that operates independent of the party or a new party all together. These are conversations that a lot of serious Republican leaders are having right now. So we're in a pretty tough spot.

SCIUTTO: Douglas Brinkley, give us some historical context here. Because you have a lot of talk about how -- well, the party, by and large, is sticking with Trump.

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But I wonder, when you look at ten Republicans voting to impeach him, the overwhelming support for Liz Cheney, despite claims to the contrary going into that vote for her leadership, and I believe there were 11 Republicans who voted to remove Greene from her committee assignments, I mean, are those significant moves that might signal a broader move away from Trump historically? I mean, these things don't happen in a day.

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: Absolutely. I think people are starting to drift away from Trump. He's shrinking. He lost a lot of his social media platform. As ex-president, Trump's numbers are in the 20s, meaning most Americans really despise him. He does have the hardcore base.

We have now ten Republican Congress persons that are going to be seen in history as being profiles in courage, brave. We've got five U.S. Republican senators that have already spoken up. What I'm going to be watching, Jim, though is the leadership of the Republican Party, particularly Mitch McConnell. Mitch has got to decide whether he can use this as an opportunity to dump Trump and create a normal, conservative right-center Republican Party, or whether he's going to allow Trumpism so swamp the party.

And that is really what we're watching here. The Democrats are operating as united on this impeachment but where the Republicans are in disarray.

SCIUTTO: Okay.

HARLOW: Can you, Douglas, from your historian's perspective, not a political perspective, but pure sort of history here, explain what you mean when you say that the importance of this, even if there is another acquittal, is creating a historical record for the future.

BRINKLEY: It is absolutely everything. I've been reminding people at the end of World War II in 1945 when Dwight D. Eisenhower, supreme allied commander, went to the death camps, the holocaust camps of Europe (INAUDIBLE). And, immediately, the first thing he did was write a letter to General George Marshall that said, document everything. We need film footage. We need photographs. I want everything covered because people will claim it is a hoax and a conspiracy.

I used to think, wow, I mean, how prescient of Eisenhower but it sticks in my mind the main thing the Democrats have to do is compile a record of the atrocities of the years of Trump and of the big lie about that the election was rigged and the way he led an insurrection. And much of that is already in the public. There will be some new evidence but accumulate that to scholars and journalists and historians start having the spring board in which to try to (INAUDIBLE) what had occurred January 6th.

SCIUTTO: Charlie, if the conventional wisdom is right and the president is acquitted, that 17 Republicans don't come over and you don't have every Democrat voting to convict, does that embolden, not just Trump himself, but Trump supporters and Trump's tactics, beyond his words, his deliberate and repeated efforts to overturn an election?

DENT: Well, look, I think that Trump will certainly do what he did just after the last impeachment and claim that he has been vindicated and acquitted. But as Doug said, the president's numbers are terrible and he's a greatly diminished figure. His conduct was just so out of

bounds after the election that I think most Americans are rejecting him. They rejected in the election. They continue to reject him.

And, really, the fight now is they -- does the Republican Party want to move forward or does it want to move backwards? I think most want to go forward. They want a new direction and the battle is what type of future do we want.

Many Republicans now are talking about uniting around core principles, like how about truth and democracy and the rule of law, independent judiciary, things like that, as opposed to what we're dealing, with these QAnon conspiracy theorists and 9/11 truthers. Donald Trump himself was the ultimate birther conspiracy advocate.

So I think that is what we're talking about. We want a future that is bright and honest or one that deals with the dishonesty and the cronyism that they dealt with for the last four years.

HARLOW: Charlie, just really quickly, where is Mike Pence in all of this? I mean, he was the focus of so much of this ire and anger and violent threats on the 6th.

DENT: Yes, that is a great question. Where is Mike Pence? I mean he's clearly -- he seems to be hiding. I mean, who can find him? And why would he want to speak up right now? He may have presidential ambitions too. And what does he do? What does any Republican candidate in 2024 going to do? They're going to embrace what we've just been through with Donald Trump, are they going to do that or do they want to -- or do they want to develop their own identity independent of the president?

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I think this is a huge problem for Republicans. As long as Trump is in the picture, it is going to be hard to go in a new direction with new leadership. And I think most Republicans want a new direction, even those who aren't saying it right now.

HARLOW: Yes. Except if you stand up for what you believe in, even if you lose your seat, you can sleep at night, right? And that is the calculation that few are making, not many. Thank you both, former Congressman Charlie Dent, Douglas Brinkley, we appreciate it.

Up next, as the Senate focuses on this impeachment trial that begins this afternoon, President Biden is keeping his focus on, trying to get some bipartisan support for his COVID relieve bill. We'll talk about it, next.

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