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Soon: Historic Second Impeachment Trial Against Trump Begins; GOP Rep. Kinzinger Urges Republican Senators to Convict Trump; Sen. Bob Casey (D-PA) is Interviewed About the COVID Relief Package and Trump's Impeachment Trial; Key Metrics Improving but COVID Variants Spreading. Aired 11-11:30a ET

Aired February 09, 2021 - 11:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[11:00:29]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN ANCHOR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan. Thank you for joining us this hour.

It is another moment in history we are all going to watch play out together. Just two hours from now, the Senate will gavel in for the second impeachment trial of Donald Trump. The former president is accused of inciting the violent attack on the U.S. Capitol last month in what prosecutors call a grievous constitutional crime.

This is going to unfold over the next several day, but the focus today is an argument many Republicans have already been trying to make, that it is not constitutional to hold this trial now that Donald Trump is no longer president, though many smart minds disagree with that.

One Republican congressman, Adam Kinzinger, one of the ten House Republicans that voted to impeach Trump last month, is making an impassioned plea to his Senate colleagues now, in a new opinion piece, writing this in part: This isn't a waste of time, it is a matter of accountability. If the GOP doesn't take a stand, the chaos of the past few months and the past four years could quickly return. The future of our party and our country depends on confronting what happened so it doesn't happen again.

The focus for Donald Trump's legal strategy is the First Amendment, arguing words -- his words did not matter and his words were not intended to incite violence. They are going to, in making that defense strategy, they are going to have to defend comments like this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: We fight like hell and if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country any more.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: It is not just the words but the timing. This was moments before his moment ardent supporters turned their attention to the capitol and stormed the capitol on January 6th. And on the question of Trump's influence of his followers, Democrats

are going to be making the case against Trump, they are making it likely -- they are going to likely lean on hours of video evidence like this from the man known as the QAnon shaman. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What is your message to everybody now, like you're yelling at?

JACOB CHANSLEY, QANON SHAMAN: Oh, Donald Trump asked everybody to go home. He just said, he just put out a tweet, it is a minute long. He asked everybody to go home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president (INAUDIBLE), people are going home.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And in an interview last night, that man, the shaman's attorney says his client believed he was following Donald Trump's orders. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ALBERT WATKINS, ATTORNEY FOR "QANON SHAMAN" JACOB CHANSLEY: That Trump talk, that propaganda was going on nonstop. What he said day in, day out that we all permitted, included untruths, misrepresentations, out and out lies. There was a mess that created an environment on January 6th which was not one month in the making for people like Jake, for millions of Americans. They truly did hang on every word of their president.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BOLDUAN: And now those words are on trial, starting today, in just a couple of hours. Let's get -- let's get to Capitol Hill. CNN's Manu Raju is standing by for us.

Manu, what is this going to look like today and in the days ahead?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, the Democrats are saying they're planning to lay out what they call a, quote, devastating case against the former president. One Democratic aide who is on the impeachment team told a group of reporter this is morning, he told us this is like a violent crime criminal prosecution. So you have in mind what their planning to lay out through video evidence showing these insurrectionists -- charged insurrections acting at the direction of Donald Trump.

Now, this is going to start today on a procedural argument. Today, there will be four hours of debate about whether or not this is a constitutional proceeding. Most Republicans do not believe it is constitutional. Most Democrats and virtually all Democrats in the Senate believe it is.

Then there will be a vote about whether or not to dismiss the trial on a constitutional basis. That just requires 51 senators to reject that motion to dismiss. We expect 50 Democrats to join as well as at least a handful of Republicans, five Republican senators have indicated they would support the constitutionality of the trial so there could be enough to move forward.

And then we'll get into the merits of the case. At that point, each side will have up to 16 hours to present their cases. First by the House impeachment managers, that will be on Wednesday and Thursday, followed by the Trump team, which will argue on Friday and Saturday. And now once that is done, senators will have up to four hours to ask questions which we expect to happen potentially Sunday afternoon.

[11:05:02]

Once the Sunday afternoon session is done, then each side will get a closing argument before there is a final acquittal vote. Now, Kate, one of the questions is still whether or not there will be witnesses in the trial. The House impeachment managers are indicating to me and others that perhaps that it is not necessary at this point. They have not said one said one way or the other they want to preserve the option of calling witnesses but also noting that virtually everyone in this building was a witness and they believe that the video evidence itself will be compelling enough to convince Republican senators to convict.

But I can tell you, Kate, at the moment, Republican senators are still in the idea that the president should not be -- former president should not be acquitted because he is a former president, they're concerned about the precedent, even as they grapple with the future of their party, many are just not quite there yet. One senator, the number two Republican Senator John Thune said he doesn't know yet if he would vote differently on the constitutional question tonight and a acquittal and conviction vote later in the proceedings. That is going to be a big question.

Will they vote the same today? Most senators are indicating they probably will -- Kate.

BOLDUAN: That is interesting though. What you're hearing from John Thune on that, though.

Thanks, Manu. Appreciate it, man.

RAJU: Yeah.

BOLDUAN: Joining me right now for more on this is CNN legal analyst, Carrie Cordero. She's also a former Justice Department official. And CNN's John Harwood, as well.

Carrie, as Manu lays out well, today is about the constitutionality of holding this trial. Manu has told us that Democrats are going to be trying to argue that the constitutional question is separate from arguing the merits of the case. How do you do that?

CARRIE CORDERO, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, the constitutional question, it is a separate issue in terms of senators deciding whether or not a former president can be convicted, tried and convicted for an impeachment that already happened. But there is really wide agreement in the legal scholarly community across a range of political ideologies of scholars who have studied this that agree that a president can stand trial by the Senate, can be convicted, and that the alternative would really just not even be a legitimate argument because what it would mean is that a president could act with impunity towards the end of their term.

So there has to be some measure of constitutional accountability. What is does do is this debate allows some senators to be able to hang their hat on that constitutional argument, which is really just a concocted argument so they don't have to get to the merits of the case.

BOLDUAN: Yeah, that's right.

John, a key unknown is, are there any minds left to be made up? Republican Senator Bill Cassidy, he had said this weekend, which you tell must what you think, is that we should not assume that the 45 Republicans that said they didn't think the trial was constitutional, we should not assume that they've already decided their vote on conviction. Do you think that's the case?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I think that is the case with some of them. Not with all of them. As Carrie indicated, this is a shield, a life raft for some Republican senators to cling to, to avoid getting to the substantive issues. You know, if you step lack and look at the current Republican Party, significant chunks of the Republican base have been radicalized and the same is true for a significant chunk of Republicans in Congress.

Those people not only think that the trial is unconstitutional, they would vote to acquit even if you assume there was a constitutional trial. More than 90 percent of House Republicans voted against impeachment process in the first place. But you do have some members beyond the five who said it was constitutional before, who potentially could be susceptible to strong arguments from the other side.

Does that number get you from five to 17? I think that is highly doubtful. But I don't think it is the case that you're only going to see the five members who have accepted the validity of the trial listening to these arguments.

BOLDUAN: And one really unique element of this, Carrie, is the fact that you have more than one of the rioters charged, pointing the finger at Donald Trump. We just played some sound from one of their attorneys saying that they were following his direction. They were hanging on his every word.

How big do you think that should play into this trial?

CORDERO: Well, remember, we've got two different things going on here. One, is that was an individual who is being charged criminally for violations of criminal law and that criminal defense attorney is making the best argument that they can in defense of their clients to be able to work in the criminal justice system. That is separate from the political process which the president is going through and that is the process of impeachment.

And that -- what is different about it is the Senate sets the rules for impeachment.

[11:10:01]

So traditional concepts of Supreme Court precedent, traditional concepts of what could be evidence are not the same in the political process of the impeachment versus what these criminal defendants are facing in court.

BOLDUAN: It is very important distinction as we get into this and this gets underway in just a little while.

John, none of this happens in a vacuum. As Carrie is laying out, that a political impeachment trial, a political impeachment trial, Republican senators, they see the backlash that Cheney has faced in the House and the threat that Trump is apparently now making to want to hold those people like Liz Cheney accountable.

Do you think that has an impact in what is going to be playing out in the Senate?

HARWOOD: Absolutely, it does. And it is not an accident that people who have been among the more willing to speak out against President Trump, people like Pat Toomey, the senator from Pennsylvania, are people who are not running for re-election in 2022. Because they understand the wrath that could fall on them if they take an action like Liz Cheney took. That is why Liz Cheney is so justifiably credited with courage for what she did. Because a lot of heat came at her as a result of the decision she took.

Same thing with Adam Kinzinger, he's getting a lot of heat and he's stepping up trying to push back. There are some of the younger members of the party have an interest in trying to change the profile of the party going forward but that's a very difficult thing to do.

Long-term, the current Republican Party and its dependence on a shrinking share of white working class voter is the -- the prospects are not very good. But how you get from what you have now to the base you could build on the future is very difficult, and it is somewhat easier for senators to do that than House members because they're not up every two years. But a third of them are up every two years and they have a lot of difficulty looking past the grief that they're going to get if they take on this president and not just the president, but when you take on the president, you're taking on his supporters, that is what the problem is.

BOLDUAN: Yeah. It is good to see you both. Thank you so much.

And we also have an important programming note for all of you. A CNN town hall with Joe Biden, we are announcing today. It will be in the Milwaukee, Wisconsin, during his first official trip since being sworn into office. President Biden will be taking questions from socially distanced audience on the coronavirus, the economy, and much more. Anderson Cooper will be moderating.

The big event is one week from today, Tuesday, February 16th, 8:00 p.m. Eastern, right here on CNN.

Much more to come still this hour. Coming up, House Democrats are moving ahead with $1,400 COVID relief payments in this -- what will be the emergency relief package. But with the president signaling he could be open to a compromise, is that what is in the final deal? I'm going to talk to Senator Bob Casey next.

And later, some good news today in a fight against the pandemic, but are the new variants already threatening to reverse these positive trends?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:17:28]

BOLDUAN: With all eyes focused on the Senate impeachment trial this week, the focus behind the scenes right now, though is, on the future and fate of the coronavirus relief package. House Democrats rolled out a key pillar of President Biden's plan is which is sending $1,400 to those making up to $75,000 a year.

But with Republicans bulking at this and President Biden already indicating this is one area he may be able to compromise on, where does this key pillar go from here because it is not just about trying to win over Republicans. We're now learning it's also about not losing support from the liberal or moderate wings of the Democratic Party moving forward.

Joining me right now is Democratic senator from Pennsylvania, Bob Casey.

Senator, I -- you've said that you're not negotiating when it comes to the $1,400 direct payments, but where the income cutoff lands, there is room for compromise. Where is the middle ground for you?

SEN. BOB CASEY (D-PA): Well, I think the House, based upon the reporting, where the House has landed I think is about right, and I hope that we could coordinate between House Democrats and Senate Democrats, I think that is already underway. But we've got to make sure that we're providing direct relief to families, that this has been just a horrific chapter in the life of these families. The faster we get to legislating on this, the better.

So I think we're reaching a point where we're going to have consensus, but the idea of cutting back on this either by way of the amount or lowering the income levels, I think it is a mistake. We don't want to have wealthy Americans benefiting from this. So if you're making a few hundred thousand dollars a year, you shouldn't benefit from this.

But I think the House Democrats seem like they're zeroing in on the way to get this right.

BOLDUAN: You could see, though, it could like go below $70,000 -- the cutoff could go below $75,000?

CASEY: I hope it doesn't, that's not what I would favor. But we'll see where they -- where they end up. But we've got -- I mean, in some communities, that income level is not that high. And for other communities, it might be a little bit higher. I think it is better to err on the side of being high than being too stingy or too limited.

BOLDUAN: You know, President Biden doesn't think that the minimum wage increase will make it in the final version. Do you concede that at this point?

CASEY: No, I don't. Obviously, we have to await the determination by the Senate parliamentarian of these procedural hurdles that a minimum wage increase would have to surmount.

[11:20:04]

But that decision hasn't been made. And I just was looking at a report this morning, Economic Policy Institute back in January, the last week of January, was saying that an increase in the minimum wage to $15 over several years would provide a wage increase to 32 million Americans --

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: Right. But Biden is already conceding that he doesn't think it's going to make it in the final version. It's not going to make it into the final version.

CASEY: Well, we'll see. I mean, that determination hasn't been made by the parliamentarian. We'll see what happens.

But if it does make into this bill, we've got to get this done this year. I think it's essential that we raise the minimum wage. It hasn't been raised since my first couple of years in the Senate. And we've never gone this long without a raise.

BOLDUAN: On impeachment, Republican Senator Lankford, he had something interesting to say that I wanted to read for you.

He said: I don't know of anyone that their mind is not made up ahead of the impeachment trial.

Do you think that's the case?

CASEY: No, I think there are a lot of senators that are -- have an open mind when it comes to this constitutional question. I think that was rushed last time we voted. I'm glad we're going to have the threshold debate will be about that issue, because I think there are some Republican senators who hope to have more time.

But on the overall issue about the evidence and the presentations and then the determination about conviction or not, I think my sense is -- and I haven't seen the presentation. But my sense is senators in both parties are going to learn a lot from this process and that is as much as we've seen some of the evidence, as much as we lived through a good part of it, that there will still be new evidence on the table for senators to consider.

But we have to make sure that an official like the president, now former president, is held accountable, because without a measure of accountability, you can't have justice and you can't send a signal to future presidents that you can do whatever the hell you want in last weeks of your presidency and get away with no accountability.

BOLDUAN: Should witnesses be called to testify?

CASEY: I am going to leave that decision to the House managers. Obviously they called one witness already, former President Trump. He won't -- doesn't want to testify.

(CROSSTALK)

BOLDUAN: But, Senator, I find it --

CASEY: But that's a decision they have -- they have to make.

BOLDUAN: It is a decision that they have to make but you and other Democrats including Chuck Schumer made pretty strong arguments in the last impeachment that a fair trial meant hearing from relevant witnesses. This time, I'm not hearing that from Democrats.

Is that just because Democrats want to wrap up this trial fast as well so they could move on to Biden's agenda?

CASEY: Well, at least not for me, Kate. I think that is a determination we have to make after hearing the presentations. There may be a need for more witnesses.

But this is a different kind of trial and a different body of evidence than you had in the first trial. The first trial involved what was said on a phone call and what people in the room had heard. John Bolton I think was relevant to that and I think his testimony would have been relevant and important.

But this is different. We'll see at the end. We'll have a probably a debate about whether or not to call witnesses. But the House managers know this case better than I do and I want to defer to them at least at this time and then we'll decide at the end of the presentation.

BOLDUAN: You have a very, very busy days and weeks ahead. Senator, thanks for your time.

CASEY: Thanks, Kate.

BOLDUAN: Still ahead for us, the number of new coronavirus infections and hospitalizations are starting to fall. Why then are health experts saying you cannot let your guard down now?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[11:28:48]

BOLDUAN: We are standing by for a new update from the White House coronavirus response team on the nation's vaccine supply. This as there is some good news today when it comes to the spread of the virus. New infections are trending down across the country.

Just take a look at this. The latest numbers showing 88,000 new cases reported overnight. That is still a big number. But it is the lowest daily case count since early November.

But there is also increasing evidence that the new variants are spreading. The CDC stressing that these variants remain a great concern and threaten to reverse these very good downward trends that we're looking at right now.

Joining me right now is infectious disease specialist and epidemiologist, Dr. Celine Gounder.

It's good to see you again.

So new cases are down. Hospitalizations are also trending down, but these new variants are spreading. How would you describe where we are in this moment, Dr. Gounder?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, INFECTIOUS DISEASES SPECIALIST AND EPIDEMIOLOGIST, BELLEVUE HOSPITAL: Look, I know people are sick and tired of the coronavirus, they're sick and tired of having to wear masks, of having to socially distance, but the virus is not sick and tired with us. The virus is not done with us.

What we're seeing right now is a down trend in the number of cases and deaths because what we were experiencing was a big bump over the holidays, over Christmas and New Year's and before that Thanksgiving where people were gathering with.