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Senate Acquits Donald Trump, 57 Vote Guilty, 43 Not Guilty; Key Biden Aide Resigns After Threatening Reporter; "Lincoln: Divided We Stand" Premieres Tomorrow At 10:00 P.M. Aired 8-9p ET

Aired February 13, 2021 - 20:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST (voice over): Award-winning actor and bestselling cookbook author Stanley Tucci is coming to CNN and taking you on an unforgettable journey through Italy. A new CNN original series, Stanley Tucci, Searching for Italy, airs tomorrow night at 9:00.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT): It is therefore ordered and adjudged that the said Donald John Trump be and he is hereby acquitted of the charge in said article.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN (on camera): I'm Pamela brown in Washington. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. You are in the CNN Newsroom.

The second impeachment trial of Donald Trump ended this afternoon with the same outcome as the first, acquittal. But that's where the similarities end. 57 senators voted to convict, including seven Republicans, more than expected, making this the most bipartisan guilty vote in U.S. history.

Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell voted -- minority, we should say, Mitch McConnell voted to acquit. But immediately afterward, he echoed the House impeachment managers when he laid the blame for the insurrection squarely at Trump's feet.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day, no question about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Let's get you straight to CNN Congressional Correspondent Ryan Nobles. Ryan, the trial is over, the Senate has adjourned, history has been made, but there is still plenty of activity in D.C. right now. What is the latest reaction from lawmakers?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Pam, I don't think there's any doubt. There will be plenty of fallout by this decision from the United States Senate to acquit President Donald Trump, the former president, in his second impeachment trial. But this outcome is what we expected but there were many twists and turns and surprises before we finally got there.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NOBLES (voice over): For a second time, Donald Trump has escaped conviction by the U.S. Senate.

LEAHY: It is therefore ordered and adjudged that the said Donald John Trump be and he is hereby acquitted of the charge in the said article.

NOBLES: The final vote capped off a dramatic and unpredictable day where House impeachment managers initially announced plans to call witnesses in the trial of the former president.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): We would like the opportunity to subpoena Congresswoman Herrera regarding her communications with House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy.

NOBLES: Calling witnesses would have most likely sent the trial in a dramatically different direction, leading to a much longer affair. After hours of negotiations, the two sides agreed to submit into the record a statement from Republican Congresswoman Jaime Herrera Beutler, which detailed a phone call from Trump to House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy on January 6th, where Trump told McCarthy the rioters cared more about election fraud than McCarthy. Impeachment managers decided to call her as a witness following a CNN report on the call, Friday.

RASKIN: The point is that no number of witnesses demonstrating that Donald Trump continued to incite the insurrectionists, even after the invasion of the Capitol would convince them. They wouldn't be convinced.

NOBLES: With the witnesses off the table, the two sides presented their closing arguments. The prosecution arguing that the evidence made it clear the riot was incited by the former president.

RASKIN: He named the date. He named the time. And he brought them here. And now he must pay the price.

NOBLES: And the Trump defense warning the constitutional questions of convicting a former president were impossible to ignore.

MICHAEL VAN DER VEEN, TRUMP'S DEFENSE ATTORNEY: This has been perhaps the most unfair and flagrantly unconstitutional proceeding in the history of the United States Senate.

NOBLES: When the votes were cast, seven Republicans joined Democrats and voted to convict Trump but fell short of the two-thirds majority necessary. Richard Burr of North Carolina and Bill Cassidy of Louisiana voted to convict despite earlier voting the trial was unconstitutional.

After it was all over, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell, who voted to acquit, hammered Trump's actions, saying he was responsible for the riot and even suggested he could be tried in a criminal court.

MCCONNELL: He didn't get away with anything, yet. Yet, we have a criminal justice system in this country. We have civil litigation. And former presidents are not immune from being accountable by either one.

NOBLES: But Majority Leader Chuck Schumer argued the Republican were using the constitutional argument as a copout.

[20:05:00]

In his mind, the evidence was more than enough to convict.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Look at what Republicans have chosen to forgive. The former president tried to overturn the results of a legitimate election and provoked an assault on our own government.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

NOBLES (on camera): And there was a moment on the Senate floor that might have been a prediction as to what was going to happen later in the day. I was in the room and I saw Senator Bill Cassidy of Louisiana scrawl a note on a piece of paper, walk around and hand it to Senator Richard Burr.

Burr then turned around, looked at Cassidy and nodded. Those two men would end up voting to convict the former president. And that is significant, of course, Pam, because both of these men earlier had voted that they believe the process was unconstitutional. Pam?

BROWN: Yes, it was certainly a surprising moment for sure. Ryan Nobles, thank you so much.

And now let me bring in one of the jurors from the second Trump impeachment trial, Democratic Senator Ed Markey. Senator Markey, thanks for coming on.

SEN. ED MARKEY (D-MA): You're welcome.

BROWN: I was just talking to Ryan there about the surprise of Burr and Cassidy and other Republicans who voted to convict. Were you surprised that seven voted to convict, making it the most bipartisan conviction vote in history?

MARKEY: No. I give a lot of credit to Senator Burr, Senator Cassidy, all of the seven Republicans. But I think it's important for us to say, it was seven Republicans, and there are 50 of them. 43 voted not to convict Donald Trump. And that's a statement in itself. And now, they're hiding behind the United States Constitution, saying that they couldn't vote to convict because of the Constitution, while Donald Trump is trashing the United States Constitution.

So that's a very sad commentary on the Republican Party in general, although I have to praise the seven that stood up for the Constitution to protect our country.

BROWN: If the impeachment vote had been a secret ballot, do you think that 17 Republicans would have voted to convict?

MARKEY: Unfortunately, too many people in the Republican Party are more loyal to the Trump base than they are to basic justice. But if the Trump base did not know how senators were voting, yes. I think in a secret ballot, there would have been enough Republican support to convict Donald Trump.

But the Trump base controls this country. And Donald Trump knows that and he has created this right-wing, ultimately white nationalist party that is threatening the very stability of an otherwise respectable historical institution, the Republican Party.

BROWN: So what kind of message then do you think it sends to white nationalists and so forth? What do you think the acquittal does today to send that message to them?

MARKEY: I think there are parties going on all over America tonight, white nationalists, racists, neo-Nazis. The Republicans have given Donald Trump a get out of jail free card for the last four years. And today, he cashed it in. And he is now free to say things, to do things without any constraints, whatsoever.

He most likely will be running for re-election and emboldening this base of the party, which he had actually gathered on the Ellipse to attack the Capitol. He invited it. He incited it. And he delighted in it. And we know that from the voluminous information which the House impeachment managers presented to the Senate in eye-watering detail.

This was something that he planned. And we can see by the timeline that was presented by the House managers, that whether it be Senator Tuberville talking to the president, whether it be Congressman McCarthy talking to the president, the president's tweet at 2:24 that afternoon saying that Mike Pence was a danger to the Constitution and our country, even as Mike Pence was hiding, that Nancy Pelosi was in seclusion, that Mitch McConnell and Chuck Schumer and every member of the House and Senate was being told by the -- on the intercom the Capitol was under attack, a shelter-in-place, lock all doors, pull down the blinds, he still refused to do anything.

And I think that is something that should have been voted upon by the Republicans today in a way that left him as a convicted former president of the United States.

[20:10:10]

And instead, they allowed him, from his perspective, I'm afraid, to have a get out of jail free card.

And let me just say this, if we can't --

BROWN: So do you think -- well, hold on, let me jump in here. Let me just jump in. Because you said the Republicans essentially handed Trump and white supremacists and so forth, neo-Nazis a victory and that they're celebrating tonight, they're having a party.

This outcome though was predicted even before Trump was impeached. Do you think the Democrats miscalculated in pursuing this impeachment and should have left it to criminal investigators, left it to that jurisdiction to pursue possible criminal charges against Trump?

MARKEY: No. We had a constitutional responsibility to conduct this trial. And all of that evidence, the tweets, the affidavits, the videos, the timeline of Trump's actions, including after the violence had begun and we watched and we now know for certain that Trump then still sat there doing nothing, all of that had to be out in the public domain. I think we did convict Donald Trump in the court of public opinion. And it's important for all of American to understand --

BROWN: Why do you say that? Why do you say that?

MARKEY: Well it's important because we need to put this --

BROWN: No. Why do you say that the court of public opinion, he has been convicted in the court of public opinion? Why -- what makes you think that?

MARKEY: Well, I think that it's very clear from these voluminous amounts of documentation which the House impeachment managers presented, that Donald Trump did engage in constitutionally criminal activity. And I think that by putting the spotlight on him and on those who he was encouraging, those white nationalists and others on January 6th, at least now we know what we're going to be dealing with over the next four years, because he is definitely coming back.

And the only thing I can say is that I was encouraged by the Republicans who did stand up, and I think it now mirrors a kind of an indication that there are people inside the Republican Party willing to battle Trumpism in the future.

BROWN: And it sounds like, what I hear you saying, you support DOJ criminal prosecutors looking into Trump. Is that right?

MARKEY: That's right. I think the DOJ, I think in Georgia, in New York, in the District of Columbia, we are going to need action to ensure that Donald Trump is made accountable now that he was not convicted today on the floor of the United States Senate.

BROWN: All right, Senator Ed Markey, thank you so much, I appreciate you coming on.

MARKEY: I'm glad to be with you, thank you.

BROWN: Well, President Trump's legal problems are far from over. Sources are now telling CNN that he's worried about being charged in connection with the deadly insurrection.

Plus, Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell blames Trump for the riot. So why did he vote to acquit him? I'll discuss with CNN Senior Political Analyst John Avlon and former Republican Congresswoman Barbara Comstock. We'll be back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:15:00]

BROWN: Well, an ex-president acquitted for the second time in a Senate impeachment, although few are surprised at this outcome, emotions are raw. Seven Republican senators voted with Democrats to convict Donald Trump and made some history of their own in this historic trial. It is the most to ever cross this kind of party line and it suggests the GOP is in for a rough ride ahead.

Joining me now to discuss is CNN Senior Political Analyst John Avlon and former Republican Congresswoman from Virginia, Barbara Comstock. Thank you both for coming on, great to see you both. Let's start with Mitch McConnell, the minority leader. He voted to acquit but he scorched Trump before he left the Senate floor. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MCCONNELL: The mob was fed lies. They were provoked by the president and other powerful people. And they tried to use fear and violence to stop a specific proceeding of the first branch of the federal government which they did not like.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Okay. You're back, John, miraculously. I want to get your reaction to those words that you no doubt heard when McConnell was speaking, in case you didn't just hear right then, about Trump. What do you think considering the fact that he voted to acquit?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, I think it indicates that the fact that Donald Trump was not convicted is far from a vindication. In fact, the first thing the Senate -- the majority -- the minority leader, the head of the Republican Party in the Senate did was to condemn Donald Trump in no uncertain terms, saying he was responsible for the attack on the capitol, in effect that he was not convicted because of a technicality, in his view, and should be open to criminal prosecution is a big deal. So there should be no of these fake celebrations in Trump quarters tonight. That was clear.

It's also, however, worth noting that McConnell is the reason in large part that there was not a trial in the Senate while Trump was still in office. So it's a little bit of trying to have it both ways. But it makes it really clear that this fact is the most bipartisan Senate trial number in history is a damning mark on Donald Trump's legacy, nothing like a victory, no celebration at all.

[20:20:02]

This is a man who is going to go down as a villain in history.

BROWN: And you're right, McConnell -- Pelosi and other Democrats have said, look, it was delayed because of McConnell. McConnell's office claims he always said the verdict would never happen when Trump was in office, so that is what his office is saying in this.

But I want to ask you, Congresswoman Comstock, you're a Republican, McConnell, did not vote to convict Donald Trump, but Senator Bill Cassidy did. And within hours, the Louisiana Republican Party censure him. So is this still the party of Trump or will the Trump cause the party to split? What do you think is going on here?

FMR. REP. BARBARA COMSTOCK (R-VA): I don't think the future of the Republican Party is going to be a bloated 78-year-old man who is so divisive within the country, as well as divisive within the party. So I agree with everything John Avlon just said. I think the statement you heard from Mitch McConnell could be testimony at a future criminal or civil trial, as would be the statements from Representative Jaime Herrera Beutler or Liz Cheney.

And I think there is going to be more coming out in the weeks and months ahead in all of these 200 or so criminal trials of these white nationalists and Proud Boys and others who were arrested on January 6th. I think there's still significant criminal and civil exposure that Donald Trump has. And if he has the kind of poor lawyers that he had for an impeachment, he's not going to have the benefit sort of a fixed jury, you know, in whether it's D.C. or Georgia or New York City. He's going to be suburban/urban juries who are not going to be favorable to a lot of these activities.

So I think he has a lot of problems ahead of him. He's not the future of the party. I think the future of our party is going to be people like Liz Cheney, like Representative Jaime Herrera Beutler, like Adam Kinzinger, like the people who stood up to the bully, Donald Trump.

That doesn't mean you're not going to have a hard time along the way or in really red states that you don't get Trumpy people. But majorities are made on the margins. And they're not going to be made with a man who 56 percent of the American people think should be convicted, which is just about what happened with the Senate, 57 percent.

BROWN: So you say you don't believe Trump is the future of the party. But, John, the evidence is that any Republican who goes against Trump, whether it's Liz Cheney or Senator Cassidy or Ben Sasse, just to name a few, they are then condemned by local Republicans.

AVLON: Yes.

BROWN: 43 Republicans voted for acquittal. Well, 43 Republicans voted for acquittal of Trump. So how did --

AVLON: Yes.

COMSTOCK: But then Sasse did a lot better in Nebraska than did Donald Trump. So Bill Cassidy, I think, he's going to be fine in Louisiana. These are a few, you know, the loud people in sort of the freedom caucus, they scream louder, but even the majority of Republicans are going to reject this type of vile behavior that you saw by Donald Trump and his majorities are shrinking. I mean, his --

BROWN: You have to wonder, John --

COMSTOCK: He never got a majority.

AVLON: Go ahead, Pam.

BROWN: What do you think, John? I mean, do you think if this was a secret ballot, it would have been a different outcome?

AVLON: 100 percent. I mean, Scott Jennings, a CNN Contributor and a former McConnell Aide, said last night if it were a secret ballot, it would have been 90-10. I don't think that's far off. Everybody knows he's guilty has seen. The House impeachment just put for a fact-based debate. The Trump's lawyers, I mean, it was being represented by Philadelphia slip and fall lawyer who lied so many times, I lost count.

Their main argument -- they had 16 hours, they used three, and it was primarily what Jake Tapper called a Sean Hannity mix tape of whataboutism. It was a pathetic defense rooted in lies. And, in fact, they lied to direct senators' -- to the senators' questions regarding Trump's involvement, whether or not he tried to stop this, after the fact.

You know, Jamie Gangel's reporting last night made a big difference in the tone of -- and trajectory, really, of the impeachment hearing, which is why there was a vote to allow witnesses. As we can debate whether that was a good idea or not but the Republican Party has got a real problem. The fact that the state parties are more polarized than their overall electorate is not a surprise. But those seven folks earned a chapter in profiles in courage. They did.

And history is not going to be on the side of conspiracy theorists. It's going to be on the side of people who stood up to extremes in their own power and a bully who used to be the president of the United States.

BROWN: And, Congresswoman, I want to get more of your thoughts on that, and it seems that the current version of the Republican Party still believes though in the power of Trump, certain people like Lindsey Graham, reportedly, due to meet with him to discuss flipping Congress in 2022 even though the former president faces the possibility of numerous trials, as you pointed out. Can you just be a little more specific of why do you think he is not the future of the party, and if so, why he still holds so much sway right now?

[20:25:02]

COMSTOCK: Listen, if you had Trump-like candidates run in Georgia, Arizona, North Carolina and Ohio Senate races, we're going to lose four Senate races. You know, we already lost two Senate races because of the Trump factor in Georgia. You know, certainly, in Arizona that happened too. So I think, you know, if the party goes that way, then they'll learn their lesson in 2022.

As I said, majorities are made on the margins. They aren't made with this type of divisive, far right-wing -- it's not even actually, it's not conservative versus moderate, even. It's conservative versus QAnon and conservative versus crazy. And it's not going to work. And if people insist on following that Trump model, then they will lose.

But I think there are strong candidates who are good conservatives, people who voted for impeachment are all pretty conservative people. And I think those kind of people who stand up to the bullies and go out and return to strong forward-looking Republican principles, we will get a party that's about our country, not about, you know, one dude, as Ben Sasse very well put it.

BROWN: Yes, one weird dude, I think he said. All right, former Congresswoman Barbara Comstock, John Avlon, really great discussion, thank you both for coming on this Saturday night.

AVLON: Thanks, Pam, be well.

COMSTOCK: Thank you.

BROWN: Breaking news at the White House tonight. A key aide resigns after a heated confrontation with a reporter. Why the now former Deputy Press Secretary says he is disgusted by his own behavior.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[20:30:05]

BROWN: A key White House aide has resigned just one day after being suspended for threatening a reporter over a story about him and his relationship. CNN White House correspondent Arlette Saenz joins me now.

So, Arlette, do we know why the White House didn't fire the Deputy Press Secretary in the first place?

ARLETTE SAENZ, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pamela, the White House hasn't offered an explanation relating to that. And there are certainly a lot of questions about the timing relating to this incident. Now, yesterday, vanity -- Vanity Fair reported that T.J. Ducklo, the Deputy Press Secretary had made threatening comments to a female reporter who was working on a story about a romantic relationship he was having with another reporter.

Yesterday, the White House said that he would be suspended for one week without pay. And then this evening, we learned that T.J. Ducklo has offered his resignation. The White House press secretary said that that came after a conversation they had with him this evening and that it was a conversation that was done with the help of the White House Chief of Staff, Ron Klain.

Now, T.J. Ducklo has released his own statement tonight about his resignation, saying, "No words can express my regret, my embarrassment, and my disgust for my behavior. I use language that no woman should ever have to hear from anyone, especially in a situation where she was just trying to do her job." Ducklo added, "It was language that was abhorrent, disrespectful, and acceptable." Now, this all first came to light due to that Vanity Fair story, but the incident actually took place several weeks ago. So, there are questions about why the White House did not suspend him at that time instead waiting until the news came out in this Vanity Fair.

A story yesterday White House press secretary Jen Psaki was asked about that, and she said that they had been handling it in a private manner. There had been private conversations with a reporter that had been involved as well as the editors at her outlet and that they felt that that was the appropriate way to handle it at the time.

Now, you will remember that Joe Biden -- President Biden, on the day he took office, he told his staffers that if he ever learned they would -- he -- they were disrespecting or disrespectful to one another that he would fire them on the spot. So, there are questions about why it took so long for this resignation to take place.

BROWN: And we'll be speaking to the vanity fair reporter who broke this story coming up in the 9:00 o'clock hour.

Arlette Saenz, thank you so much for that.

A chaotic day on Capitol Hill, to say the least. The Senate voted to call witnesses didn't cut a deal not to use them. Coming up, Watergate whistleblower John Dean reacts to all of today's wild developments. We'll be back.

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[20:35:55]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): The number of senators who said guilty today did not match the number of senators I watched over days who were concerned and moved and bothered by what Donald Trump did. I can't explain why they could not find the will to say guilty.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: The Senate voted 57 to 43 to acquit former President Donald Trump of inciting January's deadly insurrection at the U.S. Capitol. Seven GOP senators voted to convict. They're right here on your screen. Richard Burr, Bill Cassidy, Susan Collins, Lisa Murkowski, Mitt Romney, Ben Sasse, And Pat Toomey.

Joining me now with his legal view of today's outcome is John Dean, a CNN contributor and former White House Counsel during the Nixon administration. He's also the co-author of, "Authoritarian Nightmare: Trump and his Followers."

John, nice to have you back on the show. So --

JOHN DEAN, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Thank you.

BROWN: -- there were several GOP senators that were willing to stand up to the party and GOP representatives and basically buck partisan convention in this case. Senator Ben Sasse, who voted to convict, said in a statement, that tribalism is a hell of a drug. Senator Pat Toomey said it was the right call. Republicans stood up to Nixon, and it worked. Why did it not prevail here?

[20:40:17]

DEAN: Well, I've got to tell you, Pamela, as the vote started, and I heard Burr say guilty, then I heard Cassidy say guilty, I did a flutter. I thought, my God, they're going to stand up and do it. But I was quickly disappointed. It didn't take long to hear too many guilty or not guilties that should have been otherwise.

Why those who stood up at this time is many of them have no real reason who could politically they cannot. Some of them think it's politically smart to stand up. What happened with Watergate, the Republicans were very slow, there's this poor of conservative Republicans who were really with Nixon to the bitter end. And it wasn't until the so-called smoking gun tape came out, and proved beyond any question that he had lied and he had obstructed justice did they actually go over.

But there was never a full vote outside of the committee, the House Judiciary Committee, never a House vote even on Nixon. There was sort of a tacit agreement that if he resigned, that would end it, which it did.

BROWN: So, then do you think that there was anything more that the Democrats could have done in their presentation? Do you think they should have pushed to bring witnesses?

DEAN: I think that they read the situation correctly. They -- when they learned this morning that Mitch McConnell was going to vote not guilty on a jurisdictional base, I think they realized there was no chance that that was going to be the hook or the fig leaf they hid behind, and the hook they use to get out of really facing the consequences.

But, Pamela, I can tell you, from historical point of view, this is long from over. This is going to be a capstone of this presidency, there are going to be more criminal investigations, there are going to be criminal prosecutions. Trump is going to be in the news in those. He may well be the subject of a criminal investigation or prosecution.

We've got Speaker Pelosi, who wants a 9/11 type commission, that could well be a public hearing and airing of this that would educate people as to what happened. There are going to be news story after news story, there are going to be book after book. And I can tell you, we're now approaching the 50th anniversary of Watergate, and those anniversaries get not recognized every year initially, and then every five years, and every decade for certain. So, this is long from over.

BROWN: Right. It appears though, it's interesting. I was talking to John Bolton in the last hour and he said, basically, everyone should move on for Trump. We shouldn't be talking about it, even if it is far from over. That was sort of his view of things. But I want to ask you big picture, given the results of the last three impeachment trials, and the fact that, you know, nothing came of it in terms of a conviction, do you think impeachment still carries the same weight?

DEAN: Well, you know, I -- I've actually been a student of all impeachments, from Andrew Johnson, through Nixon, where I was scheduled to be a witness, if it went forward, to Clinton where I was a commentator and an anchor buddy for somebody along to the -- to Trump impeachments. And I understand the -- it is the big cannon, and the House is really rather reluctant to bring it out. So, it takes a pretty jarring event before that happens.

I'd say there's an exception in there. The -- it was a very partisan with Clinton, Republicans were just itching after the Lewinsky affair surfaced, because they'd had him under investigation for years to find something they could impeach him on. And they did and they did -- they failed there. I think it's still an important tool. It is used sparingly, contrary to the impression that the defense counsel today and on the floor of the Senate tried to portray it as something that is frequently used. It's not --

BROWN: Let me just ask you really because -- I'm sorry. And I don't mean to interrupt, and I apologize. I know we're running out of time. But I wanted to ask you this question based on what you just said being a student of different impeachments.

When you look at the President's behavior here and what this impeachment trial was all about, incitement of an interaction, and you paired it to past -- compared it to past presidential conduct and past impeachments, how do you think President Trump's behavior stacks up?

DEAN: This is the worst it's ever been. This is the worst charge of against any president. It's worse than Andrew Johnson, far worse than what was being considered for Nixon and Trump's two impeachments both are ranked -- outrank anything that happened before him. So, he's got a stain on him. It's not going to be easily removed.

[20:45:11]

BROWN: All right. John Dean, thank you very much for sharing your important perspective. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Abraham Lincoln, the nation's 16th President, often hailed as one of America's greatest presidents for ending slavery and saving the country from collapse. But the truth is more complicated than that. And starting tomorrow, a new CNN Original Series, "Lincoln: Divided We Stand" looks deeper into Lincoln's tragic personal life and history making political career.

[20:50:07]

Who was the real Abraham Lincoln and all his complexity at imperfection? (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He becomes quite popular, and known around New Salem for his good human and colorful stories.

CONAN O'BRIEN, AMERICAN TELEVISION HOST: He used wit and comedy at his own expense to connect with people. He had a lot of fun with the fact that he was not a good-looking guy. I like stories where he's making fun of himself. There is that famous one where he was riding along. And a woman is riding the other way and stops him.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: She aimed a rifle at him and then he said, Madam, why are you pointing that gun at me?

O'BRIEN: You can see just Lincoln like Buster Keaton any great just staring.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And she said, because I always resolved that if I ever met a man who was uglier than I am, I would shoot him. And he looked at her and he said, Madam, if I am really uglier than you, then fire away.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: That made me laugh. Joining me now Harold Holzer, a Lincoln scholar at Hunter College and he's the author of "The Presidents Versus the Press." I have a feeling we're all going to learn a lot in this series coming up. So, thanks so much for coming on this year. Everything you know about Abraham Lincoln; we're going to get to him in just a second.

But I want to start with impeachment and the historic second trial of President Trump wrapping up today with acquittal. How do you think history will judge what we saw?

HAROLD HOLZER, LINCOLN SCHOLAR, HUNTER COLLEGE: Well, I think it'll judge Trump as overwhelmingly guilty, not quite enough to be convicted. I think they'll judge this as the most bipartisan rejection of Trump in the -- in the history of impeachments. And I think, you know, he'll be kind of condemned in history, even if he needed another tense -- or history needed another 10 senators to join the conviction.

BROWN: It's interesting, because this was all -- this was about Donald Trump, but it was also about the Republicans, and it made them sort of come out and show where they stood. When you look at the Republican Party of Lincoln and you look at the Republican Party today, what do you see? What is the difference? Compare and contrast.

HOLZER: Well, it's totally upside down from the way it was. When Lincoln rose to the presidency, then the Democratic Party was the party of permanent white supremacy. And the perpetuation of slavery is the brand-new Republican Party under Lincoln's banner in 1860. That was the anti-slavery party, the Progressive Party in America. So, it's done in a complete about face.

And in those days in 1860, that just the very idea of a Republican entering office was enough to outrage seven states into secession, even before Lincoln was inaugurated. And it was a difficult -- it -- if we think our transition was difficult, that was kind of the transition from hell in 1860, and '61.

BROWN: What do you think the history books get wrong about Abraham Lincoln?

HOLZER: Well, I think we've tended to evaluate Lincoln on slogans. And this -- and the image changes for each generation. It began with honest Abe, and then Father Abraham, the kind of the patron saint of the Union Army, then the Great Emancipator. All of these are simplistic, but so is the cancel culture counter image of Lincoln that I'm troubled to see is rearing its ugly head now.

And that's the culture in which his statue can be taken down by protesters in Minnesota, misunderstanding, I think, his policy on Native Americans, in which a San Francisco school board could change the name of a high school because they think Abraham Lincoln is racist.

I mean, I think the problem now is that we seem to be judging him through the wrong end of a historical telescope, expecting him to live up to the most progressive ideals of 2021. That's not going to happen for any 19th century man, I think. And so, Lincoln's caught in a vise.

I think what's fascinating is that he's still under discussion. If you look at the January 6th debates in the House and Senate on the certification of President Biden's victory, Democrats and Republicans were fighting each other over who owns the Lincoln quotations. And then you heard the same quotations on both sides of the aisle. So clearly, they still something to grab on to.

[20:55:02]

BROWN: All right. Harold Holzer, I could talk to you all day about this. Thank you so much. The good news is, we can all watch this series, the all new CNN Original Series, "Lincoln: Divided We Stand," premieres tomorrow night at 10:00 Eastern and Pacific only on CNN.

The House impeachment managers had an uphill fight to get a conviction. I'll talk to impeachment manager and Congresswoman Madeleine Dean up next.

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