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Trump Acquitted In Historic Second Impeachment Trial; Rep. Madeleine Dean (D-PA) Is Interviewed About The Impeachment Trial; Rep. Mike Turner (R-OH) Is Interviewed About The Impeachment Trial. Aired 9-10p ET

Aired February 13, 2021 - 21:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[21:00:11]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CROWD: USA! USA!

SEN. PATRICK LEAHY (D-VT): The Senate will convene as a court of impeachment.

REP. JAMIE RASKIN (D-MD): This cannot be the future of America.

BRUCE CASTOR, TRUMP IMPEACHMENT LAWYER: We are really here because the majority in the house of representatives does not want to face Donald Trump as a political rival in future.

REP. JOE NEGUSE (D-CO): These false claims about election fraud, that was the drumbeat being used to inspire, instigate.

MICHAEL VAN DER VEEN, TRUMP IMPEACHMENT LAWYER: The president's remarks explicitly encouraged those in attendance to exercise their rights, peacefully and patriotically.

RASKIN: The children of the insurrectionists, even the violent, dangerous ones, they're our children, too. They are Americans and we must take care of them and their future.

LEAHY: The yeas are 57, the nays are 43. The Senate adjudges that the defendant, Donald Trump, former president of the United States, is not guilty of the articles of impeachment.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. You are in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Saturday evening.

Now, just a few hours ago, the Senate voted to acquit former President Donald Trump for the second time. The overall outcome was expected. But the vote itself, well, that was rather surprising. The 57 guilty votes were more than predicted, because seven Republicans broke with their party to convict. And that makes the result the most bipartisan impeachment conviction vote in history.

For context, Mitt Romney was the only Republican who voted to convict in the first impeachment trial. He voted to convict again today.

While 43 Republicans voted against holding Donald Trump accountable for the attack on January 6. The seven defections are a testament brought by impeachment managers.

And one of those impeachment managers joins me now, Pennsylvania Congresswoman Madeleine Dean.

Congresswoman Dean, thank you for coming on.

REP. MADELEINE DEAN (D-PA): Pamela, thank you for having me.

BROWN: Seven Republicans voted guilty. That is historic. But you needed ten more for a conviction. What was the lesson here for people who think there was no accountability or that this was a waste of time because the acquittal was preordained?

DEAN: Well, really, I'm thinking a lot about the gravity of this day, the gravity of this week's work, both in the Senate and the managers, as well as the defense attorneys. I was in the chamber at the time of the vote, and what the Senate said to me was extraordinary courage, doing the right thing in the face of extraordinary, damning evidence against a president who incited a riot against a co-equal branch of government, when his own vice president was presiding.

So I see that history will remember, and I think will ever record the evidence, the (INAUDIBLE), the moral, the facts, and the damning dereliction of duty by a president of the United States. And so, I thank the seven Republican senators who voted guilty, literally stood, I think you maybe saw the solemnity and the sadness of it, as members, that senators stood and said guilty or not guilty.

BROWN: So why do you think 43 Republican senators voted to acquit? Do you think Democrats could have done more to get more Republicans on board?

DEAN: I have a confidence that we could not have done more. Think about it, every single person in that room were a witness to the insurrection and to the incitement by a president over weeks and months. So I have every confidence that we did everything we could possibly do.

What does that say about the other 43? I'm going to leave that for history to decide. But I'm very mindful of the opening prayer of the chaplain, and maybe you think back on it, too. The chaplain so beautiful and wise and eloquent and full of faith, and I'm a person of faith. And he focused on the notion of truth.

What I think the other 43 maybe lost focus on was truth. And maybe they were focused on something else.

I am contented that we did the very best job we could do. I have to tell you what an honor it's been to be part of this team, a team of nine who worked so beautifully together, because of -- and under the leadership of Lead Manager Jamie Raskin, and, of course, the speaker of the House, and our entire caucus who gave us confidence.

[21:05:01]

What these people decided -- that the other 43 -- is up to history.

BROWN: Well, some of those GOP senators who voted to convict, they're already facing backlash from their constituents. In theory, senators' terms are six years to insulate them from instant voter reaction.

Are most Republicans still operating out of fear of Trump and the Republican base, do you think? I know you said history will decide, but what do you think?

DEAN: I can't imagine that one would run from the office of the United States Senate to be a senator of my commonwealth or of any state in the Union and worry more about his or her political future than worry about the protection of the Constitution, the recognition of the truth that this president was not only derelict in his duty, but was guilty of incredible, highest high crimes and misdemeanors.

So I have a problem with some notion that this should be political. This vote has to do with our oath. This vote has to do with our Constitution. This vote has to do, what are you telling your constituents back home that you believe in?

You either believe in public service and your oath, and then the president must uphold his oath, or what in God's name is that oath worth?

BROWN: What was going through your mind with Mitch McConnell on that note? Because he actually said he didn't vote to convict because of the Constitution. He felt like he didn't have the power, he said he didn't have the power under the Constitution to do so. But he basically laid out, he reiterated your case that the president incited the insurrection at the Capitol building.

As you're listening to him, what was going through your mind?

DEAN: Well, former Leader McConnell's comments were puzzling to me. They were strong in damnation of the president's actions and words inciting an insurrection and attack on our capitol that left five people and then more dead. That left hundreds injured. That left capitol police officers wounded, injured, losing fingers, losing an eye, that left custodians to clean up the mess, the shattered glass, the splintered wood, the blood-stained floors.

So what was going through my mind with Mitch McConnell was, on the one hand he said absolutely the managers proved their case beyond a reasonable doubt. In some ways, he said, you know, it was a clear dereliction of duty by this president. On the other case, he hung his vote on a technicality, which is bizarre because it's actually technicality that doesn't exist because his own Senate which he'd used to lead (ph), voted that we had jurisdiction, that they had jurisdiction over this. So, it's a false (INAUDIBLE) BROWN: Yeah, it's interesting, because Senator Burr actually pointed that out, saying why -- he said, look, I don't -- I don't think this was constitutional. I voted it was unconstitutional. But once that was settled by the Senate, looking at the facts, I voted to convict.

All right. Congresswoman Madeleine Dean, thank you for coming on.

DEAN: Thanks for having me, Pamela. Good night.

BROWN: Good night. And I want to bring in CNN reporter Kara Scannell right now.

Kara, this historic trial and now acquittal is not the only thing on Donald Trump's legal radar right now. What else is going on?

KARA SCANNELL, CNN REPORTER: Well, Pamela, there are a lot of issues that the former president is facing. This week, that really escalated with in Georgia, the Fulton County district attorney announcing they are opening a criminal investigation into the former president's efforts to overturn the elections, specifically they're looking at the phone call he had with the secretary of state, Brad Raffensperger, in which he asked him to find the votes, find enough votes to overturn the election.

That is just one of the criminal investigations. Another one is in Manhattan. That's the district attorney is investigating the president and his company. It's a broad, wide ranging investigation that's looking at everything from violations of tax fraud to misleading lenders and financial institutions. That is a very serious investigation, one that's been under way for quite a while.

But in addition, there are all these civil investigations and lawsuits, as well. In Washington, D.C., the district attorney there has filed a lawsuit against the Trump Organization, saying that they misused some of the funds that were raised for Donald Trump's inauguration. In addition, he's also working with the Department of Justice and looking at the riot and looking to see if there is any local rules and laws that he could potentially bring charges against the former president.

But in addition, there are also the two civil lawsuits that were brought by women who have accused the former president of sexual assault. Those were defamation lawsuits stemming from the president's denial of their claims. Those lawsuits are going forward. In one of those cases, one of the women who had accused the president, E. Jean Carroll, the magazine columnist, she said that he raped her in a department store in the mid-1990s. She wants to obtain his DNA.

So the president, the former president is going to continue to face a lot of legal issues. Some of them could potentially have impacts on his freedom, but also will likely affect him financially -- Pamela.

[21:10:11]

BROWN: All right. Kara Scannell, thanks for breaking it down for us. We appreciate it. And coming up on this Saturday evening, the Louisiana Republican Party censured Senator Bill Cassidy for voting to convict Trump. So what is next for the party? I'll talk live with two Republicans on opposite sides of the impeachment debate, Congressman Mike Turner and former Congressman Charlie Dent.

You won't want to miss this conversation. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), SENATE MAJORITY LEADER: This trial wasn't about choosing country over party, even not that. This was about choosing country over Donald Trump. And 43 Republican members chose Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So, for the second time, Donald Trump dodges an impeachment conviction. But it's a hollow victory for the party he once led. The vote forced Trump critics to square off against Trump loyalists again. Will it cause more fractures within an already divided party, enough to launch a third party?

Joining me now with more is Ohio Republican Congressman Mike Turner who voted against impeaching Trump, and CNN political commentator and former Republican congressman, Charlie Dent of Pennsylvania, who resigned before the end of his second term and says Trump should have been convicted.

[21:15:07]

All right. I want to start, gentlemen. Great to see you both.

First of all, thanks for coming on together. We appreciate that. I think it's important to hear from both of you.

I want to get your reaction to the stunning statement from Mitch McConnell after he voted to acquit. He said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY), SENATE MINORITY LEADEER: President Trump is practically and morally responsible for provoking the events of the day. No question about it.

Former President Trump's actions preceded the riot were a disgraceful, disgraceful dereliction of --

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right. So, Congressman Turner, I first want to go to you because you just heard there from Mitch McConnell. He said this was a dereliction of duty. It was disgraceful. He went on and on -- basically agreeing with the House managers' case that Trump incited the insurrection.

He voted not to convict, because he cited the Constitution. But did you agree with what he said there about Trump's behavior, that it was a dereliction of duty?

REP. MIKE TURNER (R-OH): Well, I think most people were very shocked by the president's behavior and certainly are very, you know, horrified by the pictures of that day and what occurred in the criminal prosecutions that are ongoing. I think what's important though is that -- and you said it at the beginning of your show. You know, the Constitution is not a technicality and it's not procedural issue.

The Constitution I don't think ever contemplated that is speaker of the House would take a resolution to impeach straight to the House floor without any hearings, without any evidence, without any discussions or debate, and send that over to the Senate.

We saw the turmoil that happened today because the groundwork had not been done, but it was a discussion of having witnesses or not having witnesses. You have a not surprising outcome because they basically did news clips and Twitter feeds. And that's just not sufficient evidence, not sufficient processes.

At one point, you had the most managers who even said, well, we gave them due process, we give the ability to give exculpatory evidence or show up. Well, that's not due process. Due process is the ability to question witnesses and put them on the stand and test the evidence. And that's not what happened here.

BROWN: But even Mitch McConnell said there was a process by delaying the trial until after Trump was in office.

Congressman Dent, I want to get your reaction from we heard from Congressman Turner, because you think that this was a slam dunk case to convict Trump, right?

CHARLIE DENT, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: I did think it was a slam dunk case to convict. I completely agree with what Senator McConnell said.

Let me say that Mike Turner is one of the most thoughtful members with whom I served in Congress, even though we might disagree on the conviction, I do have a great deal of respect for him.

But I would say this, many Republicans want to clean break from Donald Trump and Trumpism. That has become abundantly clear. And Mitch McConnell has sent that signal very clearly.

The challenge right now for the Republican Party as it has to cleanse itself with some of these extreme elements that have gained a total -- whether they'd be the crowd noise, the QAnon types, and some of these other white nationalists. It's really imperative for the Republican Party to clean itself up, because there will be a new faction that is going to push back hard against this. I don't think the GOP is this currently constituted, can expect blind

loyalty from a lot of folks who have been frankly disgusted by, you know, the president's behavior over the last few years, and particularly in the aftermath of this election, where I think this man really does have serious legal and criminal exposure.

BROWN: And I want to talk about that, because, actually, Congressman Turner, you were one of the few Republicans who voted not to decertify the election results, despite the big election (INAUDIBLE).

So, I want to point that out. But on January 6th, at 3:33 p.m., you tweeted this. You tweeted: I am appalled at what is occurring in the U.S. Capitol right now. President Trump needs to call for an end to this violence and permit Congress to facilitate a peaceful transition of power.

So, in that moment you believed Donald Trump could stop the violence, although you waited hours to tell the rioters to go home. Yet, a week later, you voted against impeaching him for inciting it.

If he was still in office, would you have voted -- if the circumstances were different in that regard, would you have voted to impeach him?

TURNER: Couple of things here. First off, I want to thank Charlie Dent. He is (AUDIO GAP)

BROWN: I think we are having some technical issues.

(INAUDIBLE)

BROWN: OK, go ahead, sorry, we're having technical issues. I'm going to have you go ahead, Congressman Turner. Hopefully, we can hear you know.

TURNER: OK, great, wonderful.

So, I think that what's very important is the fact that our party is greater than Donald Trump. The people (INAUDIBLE) at the Capitol coming crimes were not representative of the Republican Party. I think what Charlie Dent says is exactly important that our party is bigger (INAUDIBLE) Trumpism and we need to come together and move --

[21:20:03]

BROWN: Right, but I want to know the answer to the question of, you were clearly really concerned on January 6th, and yet you still voted to not impeach President Trump. And, of course, there was a constitutional argument in office --

(CROSSTALK)

TURNER: Yes. We are having audio difficulties. So, I didn't hear you in part. I was hearing someone else from CNN.

But to answer your question, I absolutely believe the president had a role in able to stop the violence. I called for that. I think (INAUDIBLE)

BROWN: Interrupt you, Congressman Turner. We're going to work on your audio because there are some issues there, which happens, right?

So, let me go to Congressman Dent just to get your reaction, Congressman Dent, on the fact that so many Republicans had issues with Trump's behavior, that he didn't move to stop the riots earlier and so forth, and yet they still didn't vote to impeach like Congressman Turner, or vote to convict.

DENT: Well, I think, you know, Jaime Herrera Beutler, you know, she released her statement and she talked about her conversation with Leader McCarthy about that conversation between the president and Kevin McCarthy.

Frankly, I heard that same story from other members who, you know, validate and really enforce what Jaime Herrera Beutler has said, but I think what has really gone on now is that too many Republicans for too long who have been frankly disgusted and, you know, have a lot of resentment and hostility toward the president by many members, including those who did not vote to impeach or did not vote to certify.

You know, they have had to answer for the president's conduct or misconduct, horrible offensive statements, incendiary remarks. They had to do that for so long and they have been put in a horrible position. And I think many of them are glad he is gone and they want a new direction.

And as far as I'm concerned, we have seen strong leadership from people like Adam Kinzinger and Ben Sasse and Fred Upton and Jaime Herrera Beutler. But these are the folks I think who can help us make that clean break.

It's clear there is a desire to do so. I say seize the moment and do it. If that this does not happen, this party will fracture, and it will not be able to win national elections going forward.

BROWN: So, do you agree with him, Congressman Turner, assuming when he had to say and that Republicans, many Republicans are glad that Donald Trump is gone and that the parties going into a new direction.

Do you agree with what he said?

TURNER: Right. I think our party is broad enough to include both Trump supporters and non-Trump supporters. I think you saw in the vote that occurred in the last election, there are people who voted for Trump, who didn't vote for members of Congress who were Republican, there are people in reverse.

I think we're a diverse party. We certainly saw that in this election. We had some of the most diverse electorate voting for a Republican candidate, and even elections of Republican candidates that were running.

So, I think -- I think this is part of the discussion that we had, but our party is broad enough for everyone. And it's certainly not about one person. And as we move forward and talk about those Republican principles, a strong economy, and showing we have a strong border, those are going to be the principles on which we all agree.

BROWN: OK, gentlemen, stay with me. We are going to talk on the other side of the break.

And I want to hear more about your conversations, Congressman Dent, about forming a new party. On that note, so stick with us. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:27:12]

BROWN: Back with an Ohio Republican congressman, Mike Turner, who voted against impeaching Trump, and CNN political commentator and former Republican congressman, Charlie Dent of Pennsylvania.

Congressman Dent, you are part of a group of some 120 anti-Trump Republicans who are considering branching off as a center-right Republican Party. Anthony Scaramucci, Evan McMullin are said to be part of this movement.

Does today's impeachment vote push that closer to reality? And are there any Republicans involved with this who are currently in office?

DENT: Well, Pamela, let me clarify one thing. I was part of a summit about 8 days ago, a week ago yesterday to discuss the future of the party. Many people within the party, I consider myself part of the group that wants to create a right faction hopefully that would operate within the GOP or independent of the GOP.

There are others who prefer a new party. I was not one of them. But these folks were all united around with core foundational principles, like truth, decency, rule of law, democracy.

But they all shared, they all wanted a new direction so badly. They are so disturbed by what we have experienced over these last four years. They think -- I consider myself -- we do not think the current trajectory of the GOP is sustainable, especially given the fact that some extreme elements have gained a toehold, like I said earlier, whether it's QAnon, Proud Boys, other white nationalists, conspiracy theorists. There's really no room for them.

I am all for a big tent, but we need to center right alliance. And for too long, the Republican Party has spoken derisively and dismissively of the center. So, let's build a party from the center out. Center hopefully pick off more to the right, and some of the left.

But we're going to be very clear, that if the party is going to have a situation where they have a Mark Kelly, Senator Kelly versus a Kelly Ward in Arizona, we're going to support Mark Kelly. We're not going to tolerate these extreme elements being the standard bearers.

BROWN: Uh-huh. What do you think about that, Congressman Turner? Because it sounds like you were saying earlier, everyone could fit under the same tent.

Do you still consider yourself a Trump supporter? Do you see Donald Trump support as critical to your reelection in the 2020 midterms?

TURNER: Well, Donald Trump is the ex-president of the United States and certainly I think there are a number of principles that he pursued as president that have made America greater and stronger. And there are things that we are going to want to continue, certainly the America first agenda.

There are things that obviously we're high on President Biden's agenda to reverse, such as opening the border again and killing the Keystone pipeline's where we saw thousands of job losses.

But let me talk about what Charlie Dent is saying. Charlie Dent was a strong voice in the House Representative and still a strong voice now, for, you know, common sense principles, making certain that we find the right solutions.

[21:30:07]

And that's a process that I think we can do within the Republican Party and as Americans and with the electorate, having a conversation as America, and I think it's not going to take a division in the party.

I think it's going to take unifying the party. I think that's a process that's going to be ongoing and I think it's going to be very beneficial.

BROWN: Well, we talk about how you unify, but real quick. You mentioned, Trump is a former president, but he is still very much alive, and a big influence in the Republican Party. You're seeing Republicans who go up against Trump, like just today, Senator Cassidy in Louisiana, get censured by the Republican Party in Louisiana.

So, I mean, he is still a very a big influence. Have you ever worried about in this sort of retaliation of that kind of thing if you were to go up against Trump?

TURNER: Well, again, you know, at this point, if you look at my record, and what happened in the last four years, I think we accomplished a great deal that was important for America, redoing the tax code, making certainly had a strong economy, even the response to COVID resulted in the vaccines that we see today. And the first COVID response resulted in payments, and loans, directly to businesses. I think it is a great foundation of work there.

And there are still going to be people who support Donald Trump, and I think there are people who have great emotions about this impeachment. I mean, as we know from Democrats, they started before he was sworn in, claiming they wanted to impeach him. And now, after he's out of office, they voted to impeach him again. There's strong emotions with respect to this. BROWN: Well, they voted to impeach him after an incitement at the

capitol building, where five people died this time around.

But I wanted to ask both of you, and I will start with you, it's your turn, I think, Congressman Dent. Despite the deep divisions within the GOP, what do you think? Do you expect them to stay united in opposing the Biden agenda? What do you think about that, Congressman Dent?

DENT: What I do think the party should do is they should oppose President Biden when he engages in policies that are detrimental to the country, like Congressman Turner said, the Keystone pipeline. I think that was a mistake of the Biden administration to shut that down, given all of those jobs.

But, going forward, this party does have to engage more constructively. We have had too much nihilism, too much nativism, too much protectionism, unilateralism.

I don't think it's going to help us as this country, you know, at least as a country, and as a political party.

So, bottom line is, we got to do it better. I would love to see the party unified, but it's hard to unify. How do you reconcile Liz Cheney with Marjorie Taylor Greene right now?

It's kind of hard to have a party with both of them given the schism. So, we have to figure out. You know, how -- I want to unify the party, but unifying the party is going to be very difficult to do until we deal with those radical elements, just as they did with Steve King, when they pushed him out. I think the same kind of work needs to happen again for those extreme elements.

BROWN: What do you think? Do you agree in that regard Congressman Turner? Do you think it's been too focused on cult of personality, tribalism, versus real fundamental substantive conversations on policies and principles?

DENT: You know, I think we are coming to a period that is right off the election, right after the inauguration, where the Democrats chose that we were going to throw the country and the Senate into a very divisive impeachment.

We now have to turn both the Republican Party, and our discussion, but also America, away from that and start talking about issues that are important to us -- getting this economy going, make certain we have an appropriate COVID response, decide what we're going to do, and have a debate over the border, because I think the president's views are very different from the rest of America as to what we need to do with our border.

Turning America to those issues is going to be what we need now, and I think that's going to need to have the Democrats to turn their view away from Donald Trump. And right now, they are solely focused, you just heard Chuck Schumer, they are still beating the Donald Trump drum. That's who they see themselves as running against.

We would like to be I think more focused on what the needs are of the American public.

BROWN: All right, gentlemen, thank you for a very civil discussion. You have disagreements, but we were able to come on and have a substantive conversation. Appreciate you both for coming on. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:38:04]

BROWN: Just a few weeks into the Biden administration, and already, a controversial resignation of a key aide. White House deputy press secretary, TJ Ducklo, resigned today, following a "Vanity Fair" report that said he threatened a reporter who is asking about his relationship with another journalist. He was suspended on Friday, and that afternoon, White House secretary, Jen Psaki, was asked about why Ducklo was suspended, and not fired.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It doesn't mean our standard, it doesn't mean the president standard. It was important that we took a step to make that clear. That included not just an apology directly from him, and apologies directly from us at the highest levels there, but it is also a step to suspend him for one week without pay. And that, in our view, was an important step to send a message that we don't find it unacceptable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: But multiple White House officials describe the situation as untenable because, they didn't feel a one-week suspension was sufficient, a sentiment that was made clear by the White House press shop.

Caleb Ecarma wrote the "Vanity Fair" article that led to Ducklo's resignation.

Caleb, thanks for joining us.

So, President Biden has said he never gong to permit any mistreatment of people by his staff, vowing they would be fired on the spot. What is your reaction to the fact Ducklo was forced out only after your story about him came to light, and not even right away after that? Choosing to suspend him initially.

CALEB ECARMA, STAFF WRITER, VANITY FAIR: It shows that there are deeper problems there. I think the bigger story here, the biggest story, is the cover-up. The fact that they tried to bury the story, they tried to hide it, and kill it.

And even at the last second, when you had the "Politico" reporter saying they were going to publish the piece in "Playbook", they came out and published a puff piece in "People" magazine to try and cover, and put a bow, you know, in all of this stuff, and turn, and spin it and into a feel good story, versus a story that shows the other deep problems in the Biden press shop.

And it's going to take a while for deep wounds to heal between the press -- between the press staff, you have to work with him on a daily basis. You know, those correspondents are going to have issues with him down the line. So, I think this is a very bad foot to get off on.

BROWN: Ducklo released a statement, no words can express my regret, my embarrassment, and my disgust for my behavior. I use language no woman should ever have to hear from anyone, especially in a situation where she was trying to do her job. It was language that was abhorrence, and disrespectful, and unacceptable.

The Ducklo-McCammond relationship wasn't exactly secret around Washington. Do you have any idea why Ducklo reacted to this "Politico" reporter in this way?

ECARMA: I don't, you know? I think -- I think because the "Politico Playbook" item, when it did come out, noted that outside of just the fact that there is a reporter who covers the White House, and a White House comms person dating, you know, there is issues there, already, material issues, in terms of the access of reporters reporting, since, officially, you know, starting to date Ducklo, including praising the Biden White House during inauguration week, saying that they take a much better tone than Trump, you know, sort of editorializing on that.

So, I think he took offense to the line that outside of just the fact that they're reporting the relationship was also, you know, took offense in the fact that they were sort of taking a critical approach, and questioning whether or not, it has an effect on the reporting that's being put out there by "Axios".

So, I think that is what made it different outside of the "People" magazine article where it was just these two people who have to work together on a daily basis, are dating now, and sort of feel good story. And the "Politico" story was not that way at all.

BROWN: All right. Caleb, thank you so much for coming on to talk about your reporting.

ECARMA: Thank you for having me.

BROWN: So, what kind of lasting impact will the historic acquittal of former President Trump have unconditional oversight of the executive branch? Presidential historian Douglas Brinkley, and Professor Andrew Rudalevige will be on with us next to weigh in on that, and much, more after the break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, no doubt the historic nature of the impeachment trial will reverberate within the halls of Congress for decades to come. Historians already drawing lessons from it, particularly the power of the impeachment process and the future face of bipartisan U.S. politics.

Joining me now, CNN presidential historian Doug Brinkley and Andrew Rudalevige, chair of the department of government at Bowdoin College and expert on presidential power.

Thank you both for coming on. Great to see both.

Doug, let's start with you. This is Trump's second impeachment. It was the most bipartisan impeachment vote in U.S. history.

At the same time, this is one of the most polarized political moments in our history. Where do you see the political divide going from here? Does it deepen or will more people coalesce around the center?

DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, CNN PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIAN: It's pretty deep right now, and I don't know if it's going to be centrist anytime soon. Joe Biden hasn't been in the news all week. He's kept a very low profile staying out of the impeachment flap, and this week has to continue to try to sell a pandemic relief package or perhaps work across the aisle with Mitch McConnell and other Republicans to get some infrastructure deals done.

So, hopefully, the era of working together isn't totally gone. But I have to tell you, more and more with our governing by executive power. Who signs executive power, because he can't get anything through Congress, then Obama does it. They may undo each other.

And, right now, I think we are having a breakdown of the U.S. Senate and Congress for its ascendancy of presidential power.

BROWN: Yeah, you are seeing that pattern with the executive orders.

Andrew, the GOP is that across roads. Party loyalty seems to override all other factors, whether it's ideology or policy or accountability, which has created a huge rift. Do we have any precedent for how this played out?

ANDREW RUDALEVIGE, CHAIR, BOWDOIN COLLEGE DEPARTMENT OF GOVERNMENT & LEGAL STUDIES: Well, I think the framers intended that people in elected office would have pride in their institution, right? They expected that your personal interest as an elected official would coincide with your ambition for your branch of government. But we are seeing now is a disconnect there, that peoples interests with their party, and very little institutional pride.

This impeachment result in the Senate is early Presidents' Day present to the executive branch, granting executive autonomy, really reining in the possibility of accountability long term, sitting a pretty low bar for the Biden administration, frankly, when it comes to cooperating with the legislative branch.

BROWN: That's interesting point you that out.

I want to actually go to you on this, Doug, because I believe it was Ben Sasse mentioned in his statement about how the legislative branch has been weakened and this acquittal essentially only weakens it even more, when in fact the executive and legislative branches are supposed to be coequal. What do you think about that?

BRINKLEY: I agree with him completely. Right now we are looking at an incredibly shrinking Congress Senate. They do not know what to do except complain and do not stand up for themselves. I mean the fact that we only had seven Republicans who were able to recognize in the Senate Donald Trump's insurrection.

And Joe Biden may be forced to just govern by executive orders. We saw Trump do that. And that's what I was saying, Pamela, perhaps the problem now, since Watergate we are kind of building of this imperial presidency and it would be nice to think that the legislative branch, can start being functional again, or otherwise the executive branch will continue to just garner more and more presidential power.

[21:50:02]

BROWN: And an imperial presidency is certainly not with the Founders had envisioned, Andrew. And, you know, Trump's -- I want to ask you before we let you go. Trump's former U.N. Ambassador Nikki Haley told "Politico" Trump won't run for office again. She said we need to acknowledge he let us down. He went down a path where he should not have. We shouldn't have followed him. And we shouldn't have listened to him, and we can't let that ever happen again.

It is stunning that someone who stood by Trump for so long pronounced him politically dead. Are we going to start seeing more Republicans feel like it is safe to turn against Trump now? When you think about that?

RUDALEVIGE: Well, they're going to be looking at the results of this vote to see how people who stood by the president despite all of his actions are treated. We've already seen, for example, Senator Cassidy getting hammered by Louisiana Republican Party. They're going to be incentives on both directions.

There's definitely going to be a room for a non Trump lane in 2024, but a lot will depend on how President Biden and Congress could perform in the interim to try to move the spotlight away from the former president.

BROWN: All right, Doug and Andrew, thank you gentlemen for spending your Saturday night with us. We appreciate it.

BRINKLEY: Thank you.

RUDALEVIGE: It's a pleasure. Thank you.

BROWN: And don't forget, you can tweet me @PamelaBrownCNN and follow me on Instagram.

This week, we learned a lot more about the bravery of the police officers during the attack on the capital. Our look back at the chaos they faced on January 6th.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[21:55:53]

BROWN: Well, the leader of the extreme far-right group that calls itself the Proud Boys has a new criminal charged answer to. Henry Enrique Tarrio was arrested shortly before the deadliest insurrection at the U.S. capital last month. He was charged with destruction of property and local weapons violations.

Well, now, two 2 judges say he violated his terms of release and they have ordered him to attend a court hearing later this month. Members of the so-called Proud Boys were among the Capitol rioters in January 6. More than a dozen of them have been charged.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Officer Goodman is in the chamber tonight. Officer Goodman, thank you.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: A rare bipartisan moment there in the Senate chambers. You are watching right now everyone standing up to applaud as the Senate votes to award Capitol Police Officer Eugene Goodman the Congressional Gold Medal for his heroism on January 6th.

And this week, for the first time, we saw Officer Goodman lead Senator Romney -- you're watching in this video running toward him, telling him to turn around to safety. Moments later, the rioters who stormed the Capitol would reach that area.

And this security footage was part of the impeachment's manager's exhibits. Officer Goodman was not alone. There were many officers who stood face to face with the rioters and before we go tonight, we want you to take a moment to highlight all of their heroism amidst the chaos on that fateful day. And we must warn you, some of the video is disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

POLICE OFFICER: Multiple capitol injuries! Multiple capitol injuries!

REP. JOAQUIN CASTRO (D-TX): One brave officer was killed. Others took their lives after the attack.

More than 140 police officers were injured, including cracked ribs, smashed spinal discs. One officer would lose an eye. Another was stabbed with a metal fence steak.

They were completely and violently overwhelmed by a mob and needed help.

POLICE OFFICER: They're starting to dismantle the reviewing stand.

POLICE OFFICER: They're throwing metal poles at us.

POLICE OFFICER: It's difficult to offer any resistance when you're only about 30 guys going up against 15,000.

POLICE OFFICER: This is now effectively a riot.

STACEY PLASKETT (D), DELEGATE TO HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES FROM U.S. VIRGIN ISLANDS: After attempting to dismantle the outermost perimeter, the rioters did everything in their power to storm passed the police and into the capital.

POLICE OFFICER: I remember guys were stripping me of my gear. These rioters were pulling my badge off my chest. They ripped my radio off of my vest. They started pulling ammunition magazines from their holder on my belt.

And then some guy started getting a hold of my gun. They were screaming out, kill him with his own gun. At that point, it was like self-preservation. You know, how do I survive this situation?

POLICE OFFICER: We need units! We're surrounded.

POLICE OFFICER: There was a guy ripping my mask off. And he's able to rip away my baton and beat me with it. He was frankly foaming at the mount. These people were true believers in the worst way.

POLICE OFFICER: They have bear spray in the crowd! Bear spray in the crowds.

POLICE OFFICER: The individuals were pushing, shoving officers, hitting officers. They were spring us with what we essentially called they bear mace.

POLICE OFFICER: We lost the line! All MPD pull back! Pull back to the upper deck, ASAP!

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: That was so difficult to watch. Thank you to all the officers on that day that showed so many -- so much heroism in that. And we mourn the loss of Officer Sicknick and the two officers who committed suicide after that day.

Well, thank you so much for joining me this Saturday evening. I'm Pamela Brown.

Ana Cabrera's continues our special coverage right now.