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Soon, Trial Resumes for Ex-Cop Charged in George Floyd's Death; Soon, CDC Set to Release Travel Guidelines for Fully Vaccinated People; Prosecution Questions Minneapolis Police Sergeant. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired April 02, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: A very good Friday morning to you, Good Friday. I'm Jim Sciutto. Poppy Harlow has the week off.

Just moments from now, new witnesses take the stand as prosecutors plan to cap off just an emotional week of testimony in the trial of former Officer Derek Chauvin.

CNN's Josh Campbell, he's been following the latest from inside the courtroom in Minneapolis. Josh, tell us what can we expect today, what new witnesses, but also the biggest takeaways from the week so far.

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Jim, we're waiting for court to start. We don't know who the witness will be called today. We're expecting at least one. The court is keeping the names of the witnesses under wrap prior to the day of their testimony. But if it's anything like yesterday, we will probably learn a lot more about the incident surrounding the events surrounding the death of George Floyd.

Yesterday, the defense has dealt a very serious blow, that after a prosecution witness, a former senior officer, testified on the stand saying that he thought that that use of force against George Floyd should have ended much sooner. I was in court and as soon as that questioning started, the defense objected. They didn't want that officer to be able to comment on the Floyd situation. The judge eventually overruled and allowed the prosecution to ask that question. Take a listen to what the witness said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVEN SCHLEICHER, MINNESOTA SPECIAL ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Do you have an opinion as to when the restraint of Mr. Floyd should have ended in this encounter?

RETIRED SGT. DAVID PLOEGER, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE DEPARTMENT: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: When is it?

PLOEGER: When Mr. Floyd was no longer offering up any resistance to the officers, they could have ended their restraint.

SCHLEICHER: And that was after he was handcuffed and on the ground and no longer resisting?

PLOEGER: Correct.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMPBELL: Now, we also heard from two paramedics who arrived on the scene here in Minneapolis, one of them saying that he attempted to check the pulse on George Floyd. He was still on the ground with handcuffs. He actually looked to Derek Chauvin, the former officer, and asked him to get out of the way, his knee was still on George Floyd even as paramedics arrived.

And then, finally, we also heard some emotional testimony yesterday from the former girlfriend of George Floyd, really doing two things, providing a sense of humanity, talking about George Floyd as a person, talking about him loving his children, loving sports. Again, we talked so much about George Floyd as a victim but hearing her talk about his humanity was so important there in court.

She also talked about some -- George Floyd's prior drug use. That was actually brought up by the prosecution, seemingly attempting to preempt in the defense claim that perhaps George Floyd's death didn't result from the officer but perhaps him being under the influence of some kind of substance.

Basically, the key take away of that exchange being that, yes, George Floyd may have used drugs in the past but it obviously never killed him. It wasn't until that day when he was pinned to the ground by an officer for nine minutes that eventually he took his last breath. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Yes, the prosecution trying to humanize both the victim and also the addiction. Josh Campbell, good to have you there, thanks very much.

And we are going to speak to our legal experts on all this in just a moment. First though, some news. The CDC is expected to announce new travel guidelines for fully vaccinated Americans. Those are going to come through at any moment.

Joining me now, Dr. Shereef Elnahal, he's the president and CEO of University Hospital in Newark. He also once served as New Jersey's state health commissioner. Doctor, thanks for joining us this morning.

Do we have any idea what kind of guidelines to expect from the CDC this morning on travel?

DR. SHEREEF ELNAHAL, FORMER NEW JERSEY STATE HEALTH COMMISSIONER: Well, thanks for having me, Jim. One thing is that we, of course, have to wait until Dr. Walensky announces them. We do expect to know that being vaccinated will give some degree of relief on this but we do have to be careful with travel, especially with the rise of COVID-19 variants across this country. We've seen because of travel variants coming from abroad, from Brazil, from the U.K. There is a strong suspicion that the U.K. variant is dominating in many part of the country, including right here in the city of Newark and the New York metro area. And it's concerning because these variants are more transmissible and in some cases can cause severe COVID-19 disease and increase the risk of death.

And now this is a race, of course, against the vaccination effort but we have to be very careful and I hope to see those announcements very soon.

SCIUTTO: The surgeon general on that issue of variants made the point that others have made, but he made it very definitively. He said, listen, you have got to get folks vaccinated now because the more the virus is out there and moving among unvaccinated people, the more it has a chance to mutate to a point which it hasn't reached yet but to a point where maybe the vaccines can't protect against it.

[10:05:09]

I mean, how much confidence should we have now given that at least to this point the vaccine protects against the U.K., South African variants, the ones that are out there right now?

ELNAHAL: The first thing I'll say is the surgeon general is exactly right. If this disease spreads, the likelihood of variants forming and getting worse, in fact, goes up. And so stopping the spread continues to be the most important priority.

What I would say is that preliminary data shows that the vaccines are, in fact, effective against the known variants. Pfizer just released data this week that showed it is effective against the South African variant. We also have the evidence that the U.K. variant is sensitive to many of these vaccines.

And so the doomsday scenario, of course, would be the rise of a variant that is completely insensitive to the vaccines we're using now. We haven't seen that yet. But the only way to stop that from happening is by stopping the spread and being very careful about the precautions.

SCIUTTO: Okay. Final question, the other guidance from the CDC relates to Easter. Everybody wants to get together. And it does say that fully vaccinated people can get together indoors, even without masks. Okay. But that is only about 17 percent of the country right now, one in six Americans. What do you recommend to folks who are not fully vaccinated? What is safe? What is unsafe this Easter holiday?

ELNAHAL: For folks who are not vaccinated and fully vaccinated, so, in other words, even if you only had one dose of the Pfizer or Moderna, you would fall under this category. Please do not gather indoors. Please continue to follow all the precautions we've been having up to this point. Vaccination and full vaccination affords you the ability to start gathering in small numbers indoors.

And remember, the CDC is preceding carefully because we're seeing cases rise significantly across the country, and at least in the New York metro area, hospitalizations as well with younger and younger populations against these variants.

So please continue to be careful and follow these precautions.

SCIUTTO: Yes, we're so close. I mean, I feel like that's part of the idea here. We're so close to having a big portion of the country vaccinated. Dr. Shereef Elnahal, thanks very much.

ELNAHAL: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Any moment now, testimony will resume in the Derek Chauvin murder trial. We're going to bring it to you live inside the courtroom the moment it starts.

Back with me now as we wait for the trial to resume, Laura Coates, Charles Ramsey.

Laura, can I begin with you? One, we don't know who the witness is going to be today, could be significant. They deliberately kept the names private until they appear on the stand. But at this point, four days in, what do you believe the prosecution has successfully established regarding Floyd and Chauvin?

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, they've established that there was a duty of care owed to somebody who was in police custody. George Floyd was clearly in police custody. They established that a use of force was applied at a time when George Floyd was refusing to go into the back of the squad car.

But they've also demonstrated at some point in time in a clear demarcation is when force was no longer necessary, no longer proportional. And that was at the point in time that he was no longer trying to be moved from the car, he was handcuffed, he was prone, he was unconscious and offering no resistance.

They brought this in through a variety of witnesses from those who were bystanders to those who were actually on the scene, to the testimony through the body cam video of even officers asking and questioning to the paramedics, to the sergeant who said, look, this should have stopped after no force was being used by George Floyd. All of these things have been established so far.

And so you're ticking off the different elements in the second-degree murder charge, the third-degree murder charge and manslaughter. They're not quite there but they have established a great deal in the first four days.

SCIUTTO: Charles Ramsey, of course, I know you're not a lawyer but you've led police departments, a lot of experience in uniform. Give me your sense of what the defense, in your view, has done successfully or not successfully? They've thrown a few arguments out there. One that Chauvin was following his training. Two, there were a lot, at a minimum, distractions from the crowd, as this was happening, possibly a sense of threat that interfered with his duty of care. What is your reaction to the arguments they've made so far? CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I haven't heard any persuading arguments, at least not from my perspective. They've tried, they talked about the crowd being hostile, for example. The video evidence, I think, shows clearly that this was not a hostile crowd. It was a concerned, yes. Obviously, you would be if you're observing what they observed. But they weren't hostile.

And it's contrary to what a police would do in response to that. Because, quite frankly, if you are confronted with a hostile crowd, one, you call for backup, which they didn't do. And, two, you relocate, just like the firefighters did, so that you can properly deal with the subject that you have in custody.

And I also don't think that they had a persuasive argument about the use of force.

[10:10:03]

I mean, it -- they haven't even put on their witnesses yet. But, clearly, I think the prosecution in terms of being able to demonstrate that he was acting beyond department policy, it was not part of his training, I think it is pretty clear.

SCIUTTO: Laura Coates, Charles Ramsey mentions the testimony from the EMTs who came to respond, tried to save George Floyd's life there. I want to play some of that sound and get to the significance of this. Have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: You and your partner decided to do what is called a load-and-go, right?

SETH BRAVINDER, HENNEPIN COUNTY EMS PARAMEDIC: To get into the ambulance, yes.

NELSON: Right, and to leave.

BRAVINDER: To move -- we didn't leave. We moved to a different location, yes.

NELSON: Right. And that was out of concern because of the people that were around, right, and the general atmosphere at the scene at that point?

BRAVINDER: Yes.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Now, the EMTs made two points in the testimony. One, that by the time they got there, George Floyd, they didn't have much hope, if any, of saving his life. But at this point, it is something that speaks to the defense here, trying to establish that, well, the EMTs thought the crowd was getting in the way the buttress the point that Chauvin and others felt the same way. What is your response? COATES: Well, here is why that fails. Because the EMTs continue to render aid, they continue to perform the duty of care owed to George Floyd. And contrasts strikingly to the fact that police officers that were on the scene did not render aid, did not perform a duty of care that was owed to somebody in their custody.

And so if the EMTs were able to being nimble, if they were able to just continue their duties, then what does it say about the officers who chose not to? The idea of what Charles Ramsey and I have been talking about for several days now is the idea of if you believe the crowd was hostile and there is so much more you could have done to try to still render the aid, you had four officers on the scene. It wasn't as if Derek Chauvin was alone there. What he was alone in was in his complete obstinance in rendering aid and for what reason.

And if the juries wonder it now, ask yourself, if I told America right now, take your pulse or move your knee, you know how much minimal effort is required for anyone to do so? The question for the jurors are why didn't do you that minimal level of effort in the rendering of aid to somebody who was in your custody? They cannot go around that. And the EMTs showing up and still doing their job in spite of any perceptions of a crowd really undermines the defense argument as to why Chauvin couldn't act.

SCIUTTO: Understood. Charles, just quickly, looks like you had a point to add there to Laura.

RAMSEY: Yes, just to kind of add on something that Laura said. I mean, first of all, EMS handles folks, they aren't police officers. They don't deal with crowds. I mean, their job is to take care of that patient. They leave that to the police.

But the testimony of the fire captain that arrived afterwards, I mean, he walked through the crowd. That was his statement. He walked through the crowd, went inside Cup Foods, tried to figure out what was going on, came back outside. He didn't feel intimidated to walk through the crowd.

I mean, so perception is everything, but there are four armed police officers. They didn't call for help. They didn't do anything that would indicate to me they honestly felt that crowd was a threat to them.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And that EMT, he was not armed. He was not armed as he walked through the crowd.

Charles Ramsey and Laura Coates, hold the thoughts because we have a couple minutes before testimony begins. We're going to take a short break now and we'll bring it back to you live the moment it begins.

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[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: Welcome back. The murder trial against Derek Chauvin will resume at any moment. We'll bring it to you live. Prosecutors will present new testimony, a new witness as yet unidentified, giving insight surrounding the death of George Floyd, capping off what's already been an emotional, an impactful week of witness testimony.

Back with me now as we wait for the trial to resume, Laura Coates and Charles Ramsey.

Laura, an unaddressed question so far is establishing the actual cause of death, right? We've looked a lot this week at the excessive use of force or what the prosecution calls an excessive use of force, but you have these open questions about the toxicology report, what was in his system. Tell us where that stands and what has to happen next.

COATES: Well, you think about the prosecution taking the jurors on a journey. They're setting the scene, they're letting you know why police were called, what happened when police were called, the vantage point of bystanders, what officers did or did not do, the paramedics being called. And now, we've actually been all the way into the ambulance with the late George Floyd. We've heard from the sergeant what should have happened and when the force should have stopped.

But now that lingering question, as you articulate, is absolutely right. What was the substantial causal factor of his death? We see kneeling on the neck of George Floyd. But this idea of opioid use and tolerance and what was in his system and what was identifiable, we know about a previous overdose.

The question is going to be about what the toxicology reports say, what a man of his size will be able to, you know, completely metabolize in terms of drugs in his system and how you're going to prove the case that, remember, it's not the sole cause of death but it would have been a substantial causal factor in the death of George Floyd.

[10:20:01]

They're going to move us on that journey towards that direction now to prove that very important element of the case.

SCIUTTO: Right, and then the defense will try to move them back from that journey, I imagine.

Charles Ramsey, during the cross-examination with the paramedics, the defense, they asked about drug use a lot, right, and that gets to the question that Laura Coates is describing as coming up next. He asked this one, whether overdosed patients can regain consciousness and then be aggressive. This is the defense speaking. And the paramedic answered to the defense, yes, that can happen. Significance of that as you heard that?

RAMSEY: Well, I know what he's trying to get at. When Narcan, for example, is administered for someone that has an opioid overdose, it's not uncommon for them to -- because it takes a lot out of them to be a little aggressive. This is a very different situation. And even if he had come to, you still got four police officers, you have a man in prone position and he's handcuffed. Even if he did come to, you still have control. You are in a controlling position. So, I mean, to me, the argument there is very weak and one has nothing do with the other.

Laura Coates, we don't know exactly how long the trial will go, folks talking about four weeks here. Give folks who are watching now a sense of what happens next when the defense as well will have a chance to more aggressively present their own case.

COATES: So you lead with your trump. You're going to have the very emotionally compelling witnesses. They're going to testify first. They're really going to give you the color to this story of black and white. Then you're going to go towards, we're going to be to the crowd, the court of public opinion, far less exciting testimony, much more scientifically-oriented, much more detail and nuance about what needs to be proven. You're going to see a lot more evidence that they're trying to get in, like the reports, like the autopsy, like actual hard data they're going to refer to.

There's going to be the part of the trial over the next several days to a week where you're really going to have to get that evidence in and the expert testimony is going to be about their credentials, about what you do in the autopsies, how you decide, toxicology reports, what the impact would be. It's going to be a lot of the data around it, not so much of the emotional provocative testimony. Because, now, if they're moving in that direction, Jim, you're talking about entirely disinterested parties, not bystanders, not people who watched what happen, not people who have personally known George Floyd. But you're talking about people who are far removed and are looking at the raw data and making decisions.

Now, that's going to be a little bit of a battle in that respect as well though.

SCIUTTO: Okay. We'll watch closely. Laura Coates and Charles Ramsey, stay there. We just saw the judge walk into the courtroom there in Minneapolis. You can see him there on the left-hand side of the screen and you hear him call the first witness. The witness is going to, of course, sit in that box there once called.

And the idea of this witness is something we don't know yet. The prosecution has deliberately kept this private prior to their appearance here. His first is to issue the oath. And here is the witness sitting down now. Let's listen in.

JUDGE PETER CAHILL, HENNEPIN COUNTY, MINNESOTA: -- we're having witnesses remove their mask. If you're comfortable with that, we prefer that so we can hear you a little better.

SGT. JON EDWARDS, MINNEAPOLIS POLICE: Absolutely.

CAHILL: And if you can pull up a little bit to the microphone.

EDWARDS: Right. CAHILL: And start by stating your full name, spelling each of your names.

EDWARDS: My name is Jon Curtis Edwards, J-O-N C-U-R-T-I-S E-D-W-A-R- D-S.

STEVEN SCHLEICHER, MINNESOTA SPECIAL ASSISTANT ATTORNEY GENERAL: Thank you, your honor. Good morning, sir.

EDWARDS: Good morning.

SCHLEICHER: Could you please tell the jury your occupation?

EDWARDS: Minneapolis police sergeant.

SCHLEICHER: How long you have held that position?

EDWARDS: 2007, so approximately 14 years.

SCHLEICHER: Not as a sergeant but as a police officer for 14 years?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: All right. So you started as a police officer in 2007. Did you start with the Minneapolis Police Department?

EDWARDS: I started as a cadet in the cadet program.

SCHLEICHER: All right. So that was your first job in law enforcement?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Okay. You started as a cadet. Describe that experience, if you would.

EDWARDS: The cadet program is a curriculum designed for those who have graduated college from accredited college to undergo more criminal justice and law classes, as well as partaking skills, as well as various scenario-based simulations pertaining to law enforcement.

[10:25:00]

It's a curriculum designed with the end goal of becoming POST- certified by the POST board.

SCHLEICHER: And the POST is the police officer standards and training board, is that right?

EDWARDS: Correct.

SCHLEICHER: Okay. And that's how you get your license to be a police officer in the state of Minnesota, correct?

EDWARDS: Correct. After obtaining that, you can be an officer, a licensed peace officer in the state of Minnesota.

SCHLEICHER: And you occasionally take --

CAHILL: Move up just a little bit.

EDWARDS: Oh, yes, not a problem. All right.

CAHILL: Thank you.

EDWARDS: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: All right. You occasionally take continuing education credits to keep your license current?

EDWARDS: Correct.

SCHLEICHER: Do you that as part of in service training, is that right?

EDWARDS: Correct.

SCHLEICHER: So after you graduated from the academy and became POST- certified, what was your job duties?

EDWARDS: After upon graduating the academy, you are a new officer on FTO.

SCHLEICHER: What do you mean by FTO?

EDWARDS: Every new officer is assigned an FTO, which is a field training officer, and that is usually a veteran officer who -- for about four to five months, you're on rotation with a new or with a veteran officer as you learn the ropes.

SCHLEICHER: After you completed your field training, then did you become a patrol officer?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Can you please share with the jury the different places within Minneapolis that you were assigned as a patrol officer?

EDWARDS: So I finished my FTO rotation in the third precinct. So, from there, I went and was assigned to the fifth precinct. And I was also south of Minneapolis located at 31st (INAUDIBLE), where I was a patrol, 911 responder.

And I primarily worked the night shifts. I worked in a meta watt (ph) shift and our dog watch shift. Our dog watch shift just pretty much means overnights. And we started at the night time and shift ends when the sun comes up. So, my journey started on the night shifts in the fifth precinct.

SCHLEICHER: Through the course of your MPD career, you've been assigned to different units or teams, is that right?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: And one of those was a community response team, is that right?

EDWARDS: Yes. I did approximately a year and a half in our community response team. That is a unit that's not bound by 911 patrol. That is a unit that's primarily focused on crime patterns that are happening within that precinct. So we do a lot of burglary suppression, robbery suppression, prostitution, things of that nature that we're highly focused on specific crimes in that precinct.

SCHLEICHER: And you've also been assigned to the community engagement unit, is that right?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: And can you describe what that unit is?

EDWARDS: I'm going to take some water for this.

So I was in the community engagement unit for approximately two years. Now, that unit is a unit that derived from former President Obama's 21st Century Policing Initiative, which pretty much means more community-oriented policing. And that unit that I was a part of was primarily focused on the specific needs of the community.

So I work directly with members of the community, things of like neighborhood watch organizations, a lot of meetings. But it was specific to specific needs of the community. We weren't 911 patrol.

SCHLEICHER: And after you finished that assignment, you mentioned that your current rank is that of sergeant, is that right?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Okay. And you take a test to be a sergeant and then you get selected, correct?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: And now you're a patrol sergeant, where are you currently assigned?

EDWARDS: I'm on leave right now.

SCHLEICHER: Prior to that, immediately prior to starting your leave --

EDWARDS: I was assigned to the third precinct dog watch shift, the overnight shift.

SCHLEICHER: Now, when you are working as a shift sergeant, do you typically wear a uniform?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Outfitted with a body-worn camera?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir. SCHLEICHER: Do you have a partner?

EDWARDS: No. I am one of three sergeants that are on that shift though, but no partner.

SCHLEICHER: Are you assigned a car?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: When you ride then, then you ride solo?

EDWARDS: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Now, as a Minneapolis Police officer, you signed a certification that you're familiar with various Minneapolis Police Department.