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Soon, Prosecution Calls More Witnesses in Chauvin Trial; TSA Reports, 6 Million-Plus Screened Since Thursday in Spring Break Travel Surge; Attack at U.S. Capitol Raises Fresh Questions about Security. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired April 05, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: Top of the hour, good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Just minutes from now, the murder trial that has gripped this nation begins its second week. After a powerful, often emotional week of eyewitnesses testifying about the final moments of George Floyd's life, prosecutors could today bring to the stand a man who fired Derek Chauvin from the Minneapolis Police force following this killing, the department's chief of police.

HARLOW: That is critical testimony. Also expected to be called by the prosecution, one of the doctors on duty at the hospital where George Floyd was taken as those doctors tried to save his life.

Let's begin this hour with our colleague, Josh Campbell. He joins us live from Minneapolis. Good morning to you, Josh.

So, last week's testimony was really stunning. It was heartbreaking. It was emotional from eyewitnesses on down. What is the goal of the prosecution team this week starting with today?

JOSH CAMPBELL, CNN SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's going to be a building on what we saw last week, Poppy, and as you mentioned, gripping testimony. We heard from George Floyd's girlfriend who humanized him, telling about him as a person.

We also heard last week from two key witnesses for the prosecution. These were two senior officers with the Minneapolis Police Department that were devastating for the defense because they rejected this idea that somehow Derek Chauvin was operating within policy when he put his knee on George Floyd's neck for over nine minutes.

What we're expecting this week again is building on that same theme, to include two witnesses, one the chief of police himself. This is going to be a key witness. We know that the chief of police has already come out publicly criticizing Chauvin's actions, describing what he did as murder, also criticizing of the three other officers for not stopping Chauvin when that incident happened here Last May.

And then, as you mentioned, another key witness we're expecting to hear from, one of the chief physicians who was on duty that night, trying tried to save George Floyd's life.

Now, the prosecution said in the opening statements that this doctor was also supervising, taking blood samples. Why is that key? Because we know that toxicology reports are important because the defense is trying to turn the tables here and say that it wasn't Chauvin's action that caused Floyd's death but perhaps the fact that Floyd may have been under the influence of some kind of drug.

So what we're expecting, robust questioning from the prosecution, from the defense, really building up this narrative that Chauvin was not acting within the standards of the police department and then also getting some more insight about what actually transpired in the immediate aftermath after George Floyd was taken to the hospital. Poppy and Jim?

SCIUTTO: Lots to watch this morning. We will bring it you to live. Josh Campbell in Minneapolis, thanks very much.

Joining us now, former federal prosecutor Laura Coates and Charles Ramsey, former Philadelphia Police Commissioner and Chief of D.C. Police. Thanks to both of you.

Laura Coates, I want to ask you what the defense's potential answers are to the prosecution argument that, yes, Derek Chauvin was trained but the training said, don't do this. And, by the way, he's got his boss. He's got other officers testifying to that, fellow police officers. How does the defense respond to that?

LAURA COATES, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Well, it's an uphill battle for them to do so. You have the more and more people that you have were testifying that not only is not training, it also ended in at a certain point, the idea of when training told him to essentially go from reasonable force to stop when someone is subdued.

But he'll talk about this being a subjective interpretation, that that line that we talk about now is really hindsight being 2020. The idea of when it goes to reasonable use of force over actual assault, which is the underlying claim for second-degree murder charge, saying killing somebody even intentionally in the course of actually committing a felony, that being assault.

They'll argue that, look, everyone can Monday morning quarterback right now. But at the time, he believes that he was waiting for the paramedics. He was within his rights to do so and had no idea this person was actually in such physical duress.

Now, that's going to be an uphill battle, of course. We see all the different people who were putting him on notice. It was no longer reasonable.

HARLOW: Commissioner Ramsey, last week in the trial, the body camera evidence was presented of then Officer Chauvin speaking with his supervisor shortly after Floyd's death. Watch this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DEREK CHAUVIN, FORMER MINNEAPOLIS POLICE OFFICER: We got to control this guy because he's a sizeable. And it looks like he's probably on something.

I was just going to call you and have you come out to our scene here.

[10:05:00]

Not really but we had to hold the guy down. He was -- he was going crazy from that moment, wouldn't go in the back of the squad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: So this morning, the attorney for the Floyd family told our colleague, Alisyn Camerota, on New Day that Chauvin had an increased responsibility to watch over Floyd because he suspected he was in an altered state do. You agree with that assessment.

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: I do. I mean, first of all, they may have been able to observe that he appeared to perhaps be under the influence of something. But when all is said and done, this issue comes down to the use of force that was used against him. If they thought that he was -- he had overdosed, for example, then they should be taking him to the hospital as opposed to taking him to jail.

And so they're just grabbing at as much stuff as they possibly can. This was not something that occurred like many instances in policing where you have split second decisions and so forth. Chauvin had a lot of time to think about what he was doing. There's no question about that. When he had him in that prone position, he had the one knee on the neck, the other on the shoulder, he had ample time to think about what he was doing and to also feel the responsive reaction of George Floyd, to know is he still moving, is he still doing anything that would indicate that he is okay. And the answer to that is no.

I mean, so, you know, I'm not surprised what the defense is doing but it is weak. The only thing they've got is to really attack that medical examiner's report, in my opinions. And that's the only way because it's certainly not within policy. You'll find that from the chief today, who actually sets policy for the department. There is no better authority on that than him. And it is certainly not consistent with his training.

SCIUTTO: Well, Laura, I wonder what your view of that is. I mean, the defense has a lower standard, of course. I mean, they just have to create a reasonable doubt. They don't have to prove anything in effect. What is their best path at this point?

COATES: Well, it's a substantial causal factor aspect. Remember, what you saw last week was the notion that normally you have police officers in sort of blue code, this blue wall of silence. You saw actually the opposite. You saw the extension of a 10-foot pole from each officer who was testifying, from even the paramedic who are very clear that the person they believe who is George Floyd, they knew later, was actually already dead, they believe, when they saw him and trying to give him a, quote, second chance at life. You saw some people who were bystanders, no medical training and 911 dispatcher.

So all points -- all of the directions are saying, look this was not a reasonable use of force. What they're going to try to hang their hat on is that, okay, fine, even if it was not a reasonable use of force, that still was not the cause of George Floyd's death. They're going to point to other things, the idea of drug use, the idea of perhaps other conditions in his body.

But, remember, the jury has to know that the jury instructions that the defense and the prosecution will put forth will say that it need not be the sole cause of death. It has to be a substantial causal factor. So the dueling experts talk about what this means, they're really not as dueling as it's made out to be. One is talking about essentially a heart attack due to the behavior. One is saying asphyxiation. Well, when oxygen is not going to the brain, when the oxygen stops, what happens to the heart? It stops.

This is about common sense in terms of trying to follow this path. It's not quite as meandering but they will make it seem like it is.

HARLOW: Commissioner Ramsey, qualified immunity meant it has been extraordinarily hard for prosecutors to win in cases against police officers. Should the American people expect this will be different? Is there something in this case that is markedly different to you given all the protection officers have?

RAMSEY: Well, qualified immunity is not going to stop Chauvin from being convicted if he is found guilty, you know? I mean, that can make a difference in civil court. But under these circumstances, the city won't have to actually provide any kind of coverage for him because he's acting outside of his authority as a police officer. And, so you know, the qualified immunity part of it, really, I don't see that playing into this.

HARLOW: Thank you both, Commissioner Ramsey and Laura Coates, good to have you.

Again, the Derek Chauvin murder trial is set to begin in just a few minutes. We'll take you live inside the courtroom as the witnesses take the stand.

SCIUTTO: Plus, health experts are warning the possibility of another surge in new coronavirus infections as a record number of Americans traveled over the holiday weekend holiday weekend against, we should note, CDC recommendations. We're going to be live next on what all this means.

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[10:10:00]

SCIUTTO: Well, Americans are flying again. They just set a pandemic- era air travel record. The TSA announcing this morning that more than six million people have been screened at airports nationwide just since Thursday.

HARLOW: Let's go to our Pete Muntean. He joins us live this morning at Reagan National Airport with more on the spring break travel surge. And this is probably just going to keep going up, right, Pete, because the CDC says, if you're fully vaccinated, you can travel.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: That's exactly right, Poppy. And these numbers are huge for the pandemic. The TSA screened 1.54 million people at airports across the country yesterday, 1.4 million people on Saturday, 1.58 million people on Friday.

[10:15:10]

That is the record of the pandemic. All of this means about six million people have passed through security at America's airports since Sunday.

Now these numbers are about ten times greater than what they were a year ago but still about two-thirds of the numbers from 2019 pre- pandemic, travelers still say that they feel empowered to go right now even in spite of what health experts are saying. Here is what they told us.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JADE DEL ORBE, AIR TRAVELER: I feel like because people are just probably like just tired of being at home. You get tired at a certain point. And they're like, oh, whatever, I guess so. Some people have gotten the vaccines and they're like, oh, yes, we can go out now. It's a lot easier with the vaccines.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: So these numbers are so big that Delta Airlines actually filled some middle seats on its flights over the weekend to keep up with demand. Delta has been capping capacity during the pandemic but is done with that policy starting May 1st. So it had to do this early, it says, because of staffing issues and had to canceled 100 flights.

Now, the CDC says fully vaccinated Americans can travel right now with low risk for themselves, but the CDC is also telling people they should still avoid travel and if you're going to travel, be smart about it, wear a mask on the plane and in airports where it's federally mandated

right now. Jim and Poppy?

HARLOW: Pete, thank you very much for that reporting live for us at Reagan this morning.

Well, michigan is in the middle of another coronavirus surge in part fueled by more contagious variants and an increase in gatherings. That is key, Jim.

SCIUTTO: No question. More than 8,000 new infections were reported there just on Saturday. Hospitalizations, and that's key, they're rising as well. CNN's Polo Sandoval joins us now from Detroit. But, Polo, this is good news. As of today, everyone over the age of 16 in the state is eligible to get vaccinated. That's well ahead of a lot of other states. How are they managing to do that?

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's some the positive developments that we're getting here in Michigan, not only that but also the state plans to double its vaccination goal to, Jim, from about 50,000 shots a day up to 100,000 a day here pretty soon. So they do hope to cover more ground in terms of the vaccinations, because, as you mentioned, those numbers are certainly alarming for health officials here.

And as you mentioned, over the weekend, about 8,400 cases, that number, by the way, we haven't seen something like that in terms of daily new COVID-19 cases in Michigan since early December. So many health experts here are wondering if that dreaded, expected fourth wave is perhaps what is actually happening here in Michigan.

So, really, a lot of the focus is on vaccination and also on trying to bridge that trust gap, especially with communities of color. We've talked about that at length here, but it seems now months into the rollout of the vaccine that that is still an issue.

So, yesterday, we spent time during Easter service at a local Baptist church and spoke to some of the congregants there. In fact, some of the folks who had initially hesitated to get the vaccine told us that obviously they went ahead and not only got vaccinated but they are also now trying to spread the word among their congregants. And including also Kevin Lockett, who actually was infected last year, he's recovered and is now really trying to spread the word to actually get vaccinated among this community. Take a listen.

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KEVIN LOCKETT, DETROIT RESIDENT: You have to follow the signs. You have to mask up. You have to stay away from large gatherings. This is real. And all I can say is if you don't believe it, catch it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SANDOVAL: Now, the pastor at that congregation is also telling me that what they're really trying to get across or at least the people that they're really trying to get across to are the younger members of the congregation, those that are perhaps just waiting to get that vaccine or at least not actually taking the step.

But it's not necessarily because of vaccine hesitation, they told me. It is more because they feel like they can't get sick and that, if you look at the numbers, is certainly not true. Not only infections but also hospitalizations, many hospitals in and around the Detroit area reporting that they are seeing more younger adults in their emergency room with the coronavirus.

HARLOW: More younger adults in the emergency room. Polo, thank you very much for the update. We do have breaking news, and this is an interesting development. We just heard from the court in Minneapolis that it's not clear that we will see any audio or video from the trial today as it resumes in the case of Derek Chauvin.

Let's go to Laura Coates, former federal prosecutor and CNN Legal Analyst. Why would that be?

COATES: You know, it's unclear as of right now why, because they've been fighting tooth and nail, media attorneys trying to represent different newspaper organizations and media. Because the whole premise of having the cameras in the courtroom was twofold. On the one hand, because of the limited access based on COVID-19, for the family and other people who have a right to these sort of public hearings.

[10:20:03]

But also it's the idea of people will trust the process more if they're able to see it.

So this was really historic in Minnesota to have this sort of access in the courtroom. But now, a week into trial, after we've seen the emotional testimony of children as young as nine years old, we have not seen them, there was compromises that were put in place. You could hear them. But you could not actually see them. Their identities as of the jurors as well has been kept hidden. They have been referred to, I know at some points, in name to identify themselves. We haven't seen those things.

It's very odd right now that you would pull back the access that you have already given. You pulled back the transparency and make this not only opaque but possibly only able to be filtered through the eyes of the media.

That really runs counter to the very premise of why media active attorneys were trying to make sure everybody could see. And I don't understand at the moment as to why. It could be that there is a security issue at play, that the nature of the testimony is such that there are things that certainly cannot be made public that, have not been made public before, that might pose a security threat for somebody in the courtroom or otherwise. Or those compromises you can hear them but you can't see them, will not satisfy their threshold for the judge to say, look, I got an interest in making sure that those who are in my courtroom are protected. It could a number of things.

But it's really, really bizarre at this late stage to pull back the access and not to provide a reason why.

HARLOW: Right.

SCIUTTO: Laura, this is a judge's decision. Does the judge -- first of all, I assume the judge has the power to do this ad hoc, he can pull back for a witness and reinstate it for another one. By what standards does a judge have to justify or is the judge, you know, sort of blanket authority to make a decision like this?

COATES: Well, a judge --

SCIUTTO: Well, stand by, Laura. As I asked that question from what I -- it sounds like audio and video is back. A little bit of a roller coaster in the courtroom.

ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: I made those Friday morning in the chambers during a chambers' discussion, I made those same objections with reference to the motion (INAUDIBLE) that had been filed prior to trial to prevent every single officer from coming in and giving their two cents as to the reasonable necessary of the use of force.

SCIUTTO: So, Laura, you hear the defense attorney there speaking. Obviously, there is audio and video is on there. Confusing for folks watch at home and for us as well. Can this be a situation where you hear the lawyers but you don't hear the witnesses? What are the rules exactly?

COATES: Well, as I said, the idea of a judge -- they certainly do have level the prerogative. But once you have made a ruling, judges don't want to be contradicted by other judges, let alone their own findings beforehand.

Nothing changed over the course of the week, as far as we know so far. And, again, we're at a disadvantage in the media without having the prosecutors' exact chronology of witnesses are going to call to figure out why these witnesses might be the ones who could not have a compromise that we saw last week.

Certainly the threshold normally for a judge in allowing the access is having this compromise between the anonymity and the personal safety of the jurors. We don't know their identities. We're not publishing their identities, I should say. We also don't -- we also know there is a security issue in terms of people who are in this very, very high profile trial where we know tensions have flared for the better part of a year. And we remember last summer how hot the temperature got in terms of the reaction to the killing of George Floyd.

So the judge is going to be balancing the safety as well as the public's interest in this case. And he's already ruled about how he can make these compromises. So it might be if there is particularly compromising data -- and, I mean, compromising not because it makes somebody look bad or because it might cast somebody in a negative light but for some reason a security threat that they could not accommodate. That might be one reason to do so.

But as of yet, we have no indication that is actually a problem right now or anyone has been threatened in any way. Of course, the judge is not going to want to wait until the 11th hour to make that call if there are risks that have already been identified.

SCIUTTO: Okay. All right, thank you, Laura Coates. And just an update as we were speaking here, the judge has just issued a ruling that he's decided that there was no jury misconduct, this following accusation of that via the defense counsel. That is his ruling. We're going to continue to listen in and monitor the trial. As we do, we're going to take a short break and we'll be right back. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:25:00]

HARLOW: The latest attack at the U.S. Capitol is revealing an ongoing security gap, really gaps, and it raises major questions about public access. The chairman of the union for the U.S. Capitol Police officers said the department is, quote, struggling to meet existing mission requirements, which, Jim, you just talked to General Russel Honore about last hour.

SCIUTTO: That's right. He is the one who was charged by Nancy Pelosi with leading a security review of Capitol security in the wake of January 6th. So I asked him, does he believe that U.S. Capitol Police officers cannot meet the mission?

[10:30:01]

His answer was definitive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LT. GEN. RUSSEL HONORE (RET.), LED SECURITY REVIEW OF U.S. CAPITOL AFTER JANUARY 6 INSURRECTION: Well, we made the recommendation that the need to get the funding.