Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Prosecution Questions George Floyd's Brother in Derek Chauvin Trial; Prosecution Questions Seth Stoughton, a Use-of-Force Expert, in the Derek Chauvin Trial. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 12, 2021 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

STEVE SCHLEICHER, PROSECUTING ATTORNEY: And you say the family left Fayetteville shortly after he was born. Is that right?

PHILONISE FLOYD, BROTHER OF GEORGE FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: You grew up in Houston together?

FLOYD: We all grew up in Houston.

SCHLEICHER: Who are George's parents?

FLOYD: Larcenia Floyd -- Larcenia Jones Floyd and his father was George Perry Floyd Sr.

SCHLEICHER: And did Larcenia -- is that your mother?

FLOYD: That's my mother. But they called her Miss Cissy.

SCHLEICHER: Miss Cissy?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Who called her Miss Cissy?

FLOYD: Everybody called her Miss Cissy. We just called her mom. But everybody around the neighborhood called her Miss Cissy. Anybody that knew her called her that.

And that was -- they have to be like 50 years of age. But everybody younger than that called her mom. George's age. Because she was a mom to so many people in the community.

SCHLEICHER: What community was that?

FLOYD: That was in third ward. And I grew up in the Cuney Housing Authority Projects. It was low-income, poverty. So we stayed with each other all the time. Me and George, we grew up together playing video games a lot. His

favorite game was on Nintendo. We played Double Dribble and we played Tikki Timbo.

And I finally beat him in a game. And I was just so happy just thinking about that. And he reset the game and would say, come on, let's play again. I'm like no, I got to do my chores now. Let me do my chores.

But George, also, he used to make the best banana-mayonnaise sandwiches and he used to make syrup sandwiches. Because George couldn't cook. He couldn't boil water.

So -- and also if you all were there in the house, you'll see George had lines on the wall because he would always measure with his height trying to see how tall he is.

Because he wanted to be taller all the time, because he loved sports. So he always wanted to be the best. And --

SCHLEICHER: Sir, I'm going to interrupt you for a moment. I appreciate you sharing that with us.

I'd like to show the witness what's been marked for identification as exhibit 284.

Do you recognize the picture in 284?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Is that a picture of your mother and George when he was younger?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: I'm going to offer exhibit 284.

PETER CAHILL, HENNEPIN COUNTY DISTRICT JUDGE: Any objection?

ERIC NELSON, DEFENSE ATTORNEY: No objection.

CAHILL: 284 is received.

SCHLEICHER: Permission to publish.

Sir, would you please describe this photo and what you know about it.

FLOYD: That's my mother. She is no longer with us right now. But that's my oldest brother George. I miss both of them.

They are -- I was married. On May 24th I got married. And my brother was killed May 25th. And my mom died on May 30th. So it's like a bittersweet one, because I was supposed to be happy when that month comes.

SCHLEICHER: Sir, I'm going to ask you some questions about your mom's passing a little bit.

If you need a moment, take a minute. And just let me know when you're ready.

FLOYD: OK.

SCHLEICHER: Going back to growing up in the Cuney Homes, can you please tell the jury what role George Floyd had as the older brother in that household?

FLOYD: He was so much of a leader to us in the household. He would always make sure that we had our clothes for school. He made sure that we all were going to be to school on time.

And like I told you, George couldn't cook. But he will make sure you have a snack or something to get in the morning.

But he -- he was one of those people in the community that when they had church outside, people would attend church just because he was there. Nobody would go out there until they seen him.

And he just was like a person that everybody loved around the community. He -- he just knew how to make people feel better.

SCHLEICHER: And, sir, you indicated -- well, first, you are aware of where George Floyd went to school?

FLOYD: Um-hum. He went to school at Blackshear Elementary. And from Blackshear, it was Ryan Middle School. And from Ryan, it was Jack Yates High School, where he excelled in sports and basketball and football.

[14:35:07]

He was -- he had received a scholarship to attend south Florida college. And from there -- he played basketball there.

And he transferred to Texas A&M, Kingsville, where he played football.

SCHLEICHER: I'd like to show the witness exhibit 285 for identification.

Sir, you recognize what's shown in exhibit 285?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Is that a picture of your brother when he was at the Jack Yates High School in Houston?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Offer exhibit 285.

CAHILL: Any objection?

NELSON: No objection. CAHILL: 285 is received.

SCHLEICHER: And permission to publish.

Approximately how old would George Floyd have been when the picture was taken.

FLOYD: Looks like 18 or 17 at that time.

SCHLEICHER: You talked about basketball and playing basketball.

If I can show exhibit 287 to the witness, 87, 287.

Thank you.

All right, showing you what's been marked for identification as exhibit 287. Do you recognize this photo?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Is there a picture of your brother in this photo?

FLOYD: He is number 5, South Florida, all the way on the left-hand corner.

SCHLEICHER: All right.

I'm going to offer exhibit 287.

CAHILL: Any objection?

NELSON: No, Your Honor.

CAHILL: 287 is received.

SCHLEICHER: And permission to publish.

All right, you indicated your brother was number 5. Is that on the far left?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: And South Florida, was that a community college?

FLOYD: South Florida was a community college. I'm looking at -- I know there's a whole bunch of the ball players because I met a lot of them coming up.

SCHLEICHER: Did George Floyd maintain his level of fitness and love of basketball throughout his life?

FLOYD: Yes, sir. He loved to work out. He loved playing basketball. People -- he loved teaching people the game of basketball.

That's, to me, where I really learned how to play from him, because he guided a lot of guys on the court and showed them what they need to do to be better.

SCHLEICHER: When he would talk about playing basketball, would he use any particular term or phrase?

FLOYD: Oh, he said, hey, man, let's go are go hoopin'. And we would always say, let's go.

We always went hoopin'. You have to hoop every day, because if you don't go and shoot a whole bunch of shots, like 50 to 100 shots a day, my brother would always say you would never be able to compete.

Hoopin' was big. Because you had to watch the stars. We watched Michael. We watched Magic. We watched everybody who hooped, every day.

SCHLEICHER: And if you could take that down.

You indicated that George Floyd was also interested in football, had a passion for football. Is that right?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Would he play catch with you?

FLOYD: He would play catch with us. It's funny how I always thought that my brother couldn't throw. But he never intended to throw the ball to me.

He always threw it at an angle where I have to go chase it and jump for it or dive for it. And I came up to him one day and I said, man I see why you play tight end and stuff because you can't throw at all.

He was like, I don't want to throw the ball to you because, if I throw it to you, you'll never understand you have to go get the ball.

He said the ball should never come. You should always tell yourself I'm getting the football because you have to attack the ball. That's what he told me.

SCHLEICHER: Sir, was your brother a father?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: I'm showing you what's been marked for identification as exhibit 290. Just to the witness.

Do you recognize what's shone in exhibit 290?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Is that a picture of your brother with his daughter?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Offer exhibit 290.

CAHILL: Any objection? NELSON: No, Your Honor.

CAHILL: Exhibit 290 is received.

SCHLEICHER: And permission to publish.

And what's his daughter's name?

FLOYD: Gianna.

SCHLEICHER: How old is she now?

FLOYD: Seven.

SCHLEICHER: Sir, could you, please, for the jury, describe George Floyd's relationship with his mother?

FLOYD: Oh, it was -- it was one of a kind. George -- he would always be up on our mom. He was a big mama's boy.

And I cry a lot. But, George, he loved his mom. He would always be up on her.

You know, every mother loves all her kids. But it was so unique how they were with each other. He would lay on her in the fetus position like he was still in the womb.

[14:40:06]

I would see him every day. And I'd say, Perry -- we called him Perry instead of George. He would always say, let me kiss Mama before I come over there.

And being around him, he showed us, like, how to treat our mom, and how to respect our mom. He just -- he loved her so dearly.

And when George -- he had found out that my mom was passing -- because she had to stay with us for hospice. And he was talking to her over the phone.

But she perished before he even came down here. So that right there, it hurt him a lot.

And when we went to the funeral, it's just -- George just sat there at the casket over and over again, he would just say, Mama, Mama, over and over again.

And I didn't know what to tell him because I was in pain, too. We all were hurting. And he was just kissing her, and just kissing her.

He didn't want to leave the casket. Everybody was like, come on, come on, it's going to be OK.

But it was just difficult, because no -- I don't know who can take that when you watch your mother -- somebody who loved and cherished you and nourish you for your entire life, and then they have to leave you.

We all have to go through it. But it's difficult. And George, he was just in pain that entire time.

SCHLEICHER: Sir, you indicated your mother passed May 30, 2018. Is that right?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: And you described seeing your brother, George, at the funeral. Is that right?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: And was it around the time your mother's passing the last time you saw your brother George Floyd in person alive?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Did you maintain contact with him on the phone through texts and whatnot after that?

FLOYD: Yes, we text. We called each other. He would call and I would call him. But we would talk a lot of times early in the morning because I was a truck driver.

So he would always be up talking to me and getting pointers on how to back up, how to do the shifting gears, different things like that.

And I had great teachers. So I would also just explain to him what he needed to do. And that level to get to that next tier, that's what he was doing. He would just listen, and he became a student.

And I always had to ask him for advice because he was my big brother.

SCHLEICHER: Now, sir -- and this is a yes or no question. Were you informed that your brother, George Floyd, had died on May 26th, 2020?

FLOYD: Yes, sir.

SCHLEICHER: Thank you very much.

I have no further questions, Your Honor.

CAHILL: Any questions?

NELSON: No, Your Honor. I have no questions for this witness.

CAHILL: All right, thank you.

Thank you, sir.

FLOYD: Thank you.

CAHILL: Thank you for being here.

SCHLEICHER: (INAUDIBLE).

Let me make sure he is here, Your Honor.

Is he here?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: OK. Thank you.

Your Honor, the state calls Seth Stoughton.

CAHILL: Do you swear or affirm, under penalty of perjury, that the testimony you're about to give will be the truth and nothing but the truth?

SETH STOUGHTON, USE-OF-FORCE EXPERT: I do.

CAHILL: Have a seat, please.

STOUGHTON. Thank you.

CAHILL: And if you could remove your mask, if you are comfortable doing so.

STOUGHTON: Yes, Your Honor.

[14:45:01]

CAHILL: And let's begin by stating your full name, spelling each name.

STOUGHTON: My name is Seth Wane Stoughton. S-E-T-H. W-A-N-E. S-T-O-U- G-H-T-O-N.

CAHILL: Your witness, Mr. Schleicher.

SCHLEICHER: Thank you, Your Honor.

Good afternoon.

STOUGHTON: Good afternoon.

SCHLEICHER: Sir, how are you employed?

STOUGHTON: I'm an associate professor at the University of South Carolina School of Law, and an affiliate professor in the Department of Criminology and Criminal Justice.

SCHLEICHER: How long have you been a law professor?

STOUGHTON: I've been there for seven years now, almost seven years. And two years prior to that in a teaching fellowship preparing to be a law professor.

SCHLEICHER: And do you teach academic courses at the South Carolina Law School?

STOUGHTON: I do.

SCHLEICHER: What courses do you teach?

STOUGHTON: I teach criminal law and police law and policy.

SCHLEICHER: Do you also conduct any scholarly research?

STOUGHTON: I do, yes.

SCHLEICHER: What scholarly research do you conduct?

STOUGHTON: I study the regulation of policing and multiple aspects of the regulation of policing.

SCHLEICHER: And I'd like you to please describe your educational background for the jury so they can understand how you come be to be a law professor at the University of South Carolina.

First, where did you receive your undergraduate education?

STOUGHTON: Florida State University in Tallahassee.

SCHLEICHER: And what was your degree?

STOUGHTON: English with a focus in literature.

SCHLEICHER: And before we get into your law career, did you take -- have you always been in academia?

STOUGHTON: No, I have not.

SCHLEICHER: What was your prior career before becoming involved in academia?

STOUGHTON: I interrupted my undergraduate education to take a job as a police officer with the Tallahassee Police Department. And later, as an investigator with the Florida Department of Education's Office of Inspector General.

SCHLEICHER: I'd like you to please describe to the jury your experience as an officer with the Tallahassee Police Department.

First, what year did you join the department?

STOUGHTON: I applied to the department in 2000 and was employed in early 2001.

SCHLEICHER: Can you describe for the jury the training process that you went through to become a police officer in the state of Florida?

STOUGHTON: Sure. So Florida has a academy requirement. I went to a regional police academy, which means not an academy run by my particular agency but instead an academy that trains officers from a number of agencies in north Florida.

After finishing the approximately five, five and a half months or so of academy training, I went through additional pre-service training at my agency, about a month of classroom training and additional sort of lecture-style training and hands-on training.

And then went through four months, three and a half months of a field- training program.

SCHLEICHER: And after you completed your field training, you received assignment -- an assignment as a law enforcement officer in Tallahassee?

STOUGHTON: Yes, I did.

SCHLEICHER: I'd like for you to please describe for the jury at a high level the different assignments you had as a police officer with that department.

STOUGHTON: I was there full-time for just under five years. The entire time I was there, I worked on patrol. That was our uniformed capacity officers who are responding to calls for service or pulling over vehicles and the like.

I had some additional assignments as a patrol officer. I spent two years on our special response team.

I taught community self-defense classes and child abduction and molestation prevention classes in the community and the like.

SCHLEICHER: And as a patrol officer, were you ever in a situation where you had to use force on an individual?

STOUGHTON: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: Did you ever have to arrest somebody?

STOUGHTON: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: Handcuff a reluctant subject?

STOUGHTON: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: Something that you would routinely do as a police officer?

STOUGHTON: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: Did you respond to calls for service and write police reports?

STOUGHTON: Yes, lots of calls for service and lots of reports.

SCHLEICHER: After you left the Tallahassee Police Department, you took a job with -- was it the Department of Education?

STOUGHTON: Yes, Florida's Department of Education as an investigator in their Inspector General's Office.

SCHLEICHER: Please describe your general duties there. STOUGHTON: So, as an investigator, I was charged with investigating waste, fraud and abuse within and affecting the Department of Education.

The investigations were both administrative, for example, sexual harassment allegations within the Department of Education.

And also criminal, private-school tuition voucher primarily. Although, there were some non-tuition voucher fraud voucher criminal cases I was involved in.

SCHLEICHER: When did you decide to go to law school, enter law school?

[14:50:01]

STOUGHTON: Having put my undergraduate education on hold as an investigator, I now had a regular -- a regular day job, so I was able to finish that degree.

It took me 10 years to get a four-year degree, because I can be a little slower than the average bear, sometimes.

As I was coming up on the end of that degree, I made the decision -- my wife and I made a decision to go to law school to continue to expand career options.

SCHLEICHER: Where did you attend law school?

STOUGHTON: The University of Virginia.

SCHLEICHER: And what year did you graduate from law school?

STOUGHTON: 2011.

SCHLEICHER: And at what point did you enter academia, generally?

STOUGHTON: I clerked for a year after law school. And I worked for a federal judge based out of Indiana for the year after law school. I then began my academic fellowship after that clerkship.

SCHLEICHER: And in your academic pursuits, did you decide to build on the experience you had as a former police officer?

STOUGHTON: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: And how so?

STOUGHTON: As I began law school, I really had no intention of becoming an academic. And I had some outstanding professors.

And between their influence and my interest in studying policing from an academic and a legal perspective, I realized there was a little bit of a niche where I could draw on some of the information that I had from firsthand experience.

To either ask questions that other academics maybe had not asked or to find answers in different places that other academics may not have thought to look.

SCHLEICHER: And is that where you focused your research?

STOUGHTON: Yes. All of my research has been on policing and the regulation of policing.

SCHLEICHER: Have you authored any scholarly publications?

STOUGHTON: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: What sort of publications have you authored?

STOUGHTON: I have written law review articles, which is the academic -- the type of academic journals that legal scholars publish in.

I've written for a number of different publishers, a number of different articles on a range of topics: Officers and off-duty employment, the use-of-force tactics, different ways that aspects of our legal system regulate police officers and affect officer behaviors.

SCHLEICHER: Have you authored chapters of books?

STOUGHTON: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: What books with publications have you authored chapters of?

STOUGHTON: I think my most recent publication was in critical issues in policing, which is a series of contemporary essays on policing. That chapter is on the regulation of police violence.

I've authored book chapters on police misconduct. And I'm authoring another on use-of-force review right now.

SCHLEICHER: You published a book recently, is that right? You co- authored a book, is that right?

STOUGHTON: Yes, I did.

SCHLEICHER: And what's the title of the book?

STOUGHTON: That's "Evaluating Police Uses of Force."

SCHLEICHER: All right. You have a copy with you here?

STOUGHTON: I do.

SCHLEICHER: You co-authored that book with Jeffrey Noble and Geoffrey Alpert, is that right?

STOUGHTON: Yes, that's correct.

SCHLEICHER: Sir, are you a member of any professional organizations?

STOUGHTON: I am, yes. SCHLEICHER: What professional organizations are you a member of?

STOUGHTON: I'm an associate member of the Virginia Bar, which is a nonpracticing member of the State Bar Association for attorneys.

I'm a member of the American Society of Evidence-Based Policing, a member of the International Association of Chiefs of Police.

I serve as an adviser to the American Law Institute's Principles on the Law of Policing.

I'm a member -- I believe technically liaison to the American Bar Association's working group of trust in the criminal justice system.

There are probably a couple other ones. I don't remember them all offhand.

SCHLEICHER: Do you occasionally provide consultation to law enforcement agencies in conducting use-of-force reviews through these organizations?

STOUGHTON: Not through the professional organizations, but I do work with consult or work with police agencies, yes.

SCHLEICHER: Does that include providing educational instruction?

STOUGHTON: Yes.

SCHLEICHER: Consultation?

STOUGHTON: Yes, it has.

SCHLEICHER: And specific use-of-force reviews?

STOUGHTON: It has, yes.

SCHLEICHER: And what agencies have you done that kind of work with?

STOUGHTON: I've done training and presentation to the training officers in the Richland County Sheriff's Office, which is, I believe, the largest law enforcement association -- largest enforcement agency in South Carolina.

I'm a member of the Civilian Advisory Council with my local police department, the Columbia Police Department. So I sit in what are called Command Review Boards, which involve assessing use of force in that context.

[14:55:01]

I've done presentations and training at the Federal Law Enforcement Training Center, which is not an agency, per se, but the audience had representatives of a number of different state, local and federal agencies.

I've provided training and presentations to the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives' senior staff, to the command staff of the Kansas City, Missouri, Police Department.

I've -- all of those are sort of formal. There might be a couple of others, as well as a range of informal consultations and discussions on a range of issues with a number of agencies.

SCHLEICHER: Are you a frequent speaker, lecturer on issues of in policing and use of force throughout the country?

STOUGHTON: Yes. Although, in the past year, most of those have been presentations from my home, via Zoom. But, yes, they are all over the place.

SCHLEICHER: What organizations do you present to?

STOUGHTON: Oh, I've presented well over 100 times at this point to organizations that include the American Judges' Association, the Conference of Chief Justices.

Judicial conferences in a number of states, prosecution or defense conferences in a number of states, security conference in Mexico City, a prosecution and defense combined conference in Canada.

Most recently, I've presented at several law reviews and symposiums. One hosted by the University of -- I'm sorry, by Loyola University in Chicago.

That was this past week, by the "Journal of Law and Criminology." That was the week before, I believe.

By the University of Wisconsin, Platteville. That was also this past week.

SCHLEICHER: Have you previously been retained as an expert witness?

STOUGHTON: Yes, I have.

SCHLEICHER: How often have you been retained as an expert witness?

STOUGHTON: I've been retained around 60 times at this point.

SCHLEICHER: Have you testified as an expert witness before at a deposition?

STOUGHTON: Yes, I have.

SCHLEICHER: Approximately how many times?

STOUGHTON: At deposition, I think over a dozen pretty easily at this point, I believe.

SCHLEICHER: In those depositions, have you testified as an expert witness in the area of use of force?

STOUGHTON: Yes, tactics, use of force, police procedure, yes.

SCHLEICHER: Have you testified in a trial before as an expert in use of force?

STOUGHTON: Yes, I have.

(CROSSTALK)

STOUGHTON: Use of force, including tactics and use of force and related issues, yes.

SCHLEICHER: What courts have you testified in?

STOUGHTON: There was a federal court in North Carolina, a federal court in South Carolina, a criminal court in Georgia. I think that's it for trial testimony.

As you know, most of these -- most cases don't actually make it to a trial.

NELSON: Do we have the file?

STOUGHTON: Yes.

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Elie, as they're in a side bar, another use of force witness, testimony here coming here after George Floyd's young brother, Philonise Floyd.

Are you surprised in the order of which these gentlemen are testifying?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: I'm absolutely surprised.

BALDWIN: Yes.

HONIG: Whenever you're putting together your case as a prosecutor, you want to start strong and end strong.

The first thing you do when you're putting together your order of witnesses, is say, who's leading off and who's going last?

Philonise Floyd would have been a perfect final witness. His testimony was searing and heartbreaking and visceral and really humanized George Floyd.

Why you follow that up with yet another witness on use of force? I can't understand what the approach is here.

BALDWIN: Let's listen back in.

SCHLEICHER: You were talking about depositions. Those are civil cases, is that right?

STOUGHTON: Yes, that is correct.

SCHLEICHER: All right.

Now, you've been retained in this matter to provide testimony regarding use of force that occurred on May 25, 2020 in the matter of the death of George Floyd, is that correct?

STOUGHTON: Yes, I am.

SCHLEICHER: Having been retained, you charge a fee for your services?

STOUGHTON: For my time in review, yes.

SCHLEICHER: What is your fee, your hourly rate?

STOUGHTON: $295 an hour in this case.

SCHLEICHER: You receive a different rate for trial days?

STOUGHTON: I have an eight-hour minimum on days I'm expected to testify.

SCHLEICHER: And to date how much have you been compensated based on your work in this case?

[14:59:57]

STOUGHTON: I would have to look at my records to see what actual compensation has been. In the area of maybe $24,000 or $25,000 received.