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Biden Won't Raise Refugee Cap This Fiscal Year, a Reversal On Earlier Pledge; Researchers Test Pfizer Vaccine on Children as Young as 2; GOP Lawmakers Push New Bills Restricting Voting Access; Activist & Rapper "Killer Mike" Discusses Police Shootings of Black Men and Criminal Justice Reform. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired April 16, 2021 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[14:31:07]

BROOKE BALDWIN, CNN HOST: Got breaking news for you out of the White House. This major reversal from President Joe Biden on the number of refugees allowed into the United States.

So let's get right to the chief White House correspondent, Kaitlan Collins.

Kaitlan, what have you learned?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Brooke, this is significant because this is something you saw President Biden talk about often even when he was asked why is he running for president.

He talked about the way President Trump treated the immigration system. And one of the things he did was lower the refugee cap, the number of refugees allowed into the U.S. each fiscal year to historic lows, to 15,000.

And President Biden said he was going to raise it by thousands of refugees when he got into office.

His secretary of state notified Congress they were bringing the cap up from 15,000 to 62,500. So over 60,000. You can see what a difference that is.

But time and time again, we had not seen President Biden sign the paperwork formally raising the cap. But it's something the White House was being asked about on a near daily basis, Brooke.

Now we're learned that they are walking back that pledge. They are no longer going to be raising the refugee cap. And instead, they are changing these allocations of which refugees can come from where.

This is something that you kind of tried to see the Trump administration try to circumvent which refugees were coming because they only allowed them from certain countries.

Not allow them in great numbers from places like Africa. Of course, there are a lot of refugees in Africa trying to come to the United States.

What they are is changing those numbers in a declaration that you're going to see President Biden sign today.

But, by not raising the number, you are already seeing a lot of outrage. Definitely from progressives.

People like Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortes, tweeting earlier today, saying she believes this decision by President Biden not to raise this refugee cap is unacceptable.

And we've asked the White House for reasons why they are not doing this. What is the change?

Because, last week, I had asked the press secretary, Jen Psaki, if President Biden was still committed to raising the cap to 62,000, given he talked about it so much and his secretary of state had talked about it.

And, Brooke, last week, she said, yes, they were still committed to doing so by September 30th, by the end of the fiscal year. But now we are seeing them change it.

And one reason they did say, was not just the way the Trump administration changed the refugee program in the ways they did, but also because of the surge of migrants that you see at the southern border.

Even though it's one office that processes this, there are two different programs that do it. But they say that's a contributing factor to why you are seeing President Biden walk back on this big campaign promise.

BALDWIN: Kaitlan Collins, thank you for the update on this change on the fundamentals. Thank you, at the White House for us.

Let's get to COVID. Researchers now testing the Pfizer COVID-19 vaccine on children as young as 2. Stanford Medicine in California started administering doses Wednesday to kids ages 2 to 5.

This is all part of a larger, three-phase trial that will eventually, they say, include children as young as six months, all the way up to 12 years of age.

According to researchers, the first phase of the trial is geared toward finding a safe dosage for preschool-age children.

Let's talk about that with Dr. Roshini Raj. She is an associate professor of medicine at NYU Langone Health.

And, Dr. Raj, how will protecting our youngest finally help put an end to the pandemic? DR. ROSHINI RAJ, ASSOCIATE PROFESSOR OF MEDICINE, NYU LANGONE HEALTH:

It's so important, Brooke, not only for the young children themselves but for all of us because we know we can't truly achieve herd immunity until we really attack the people that are under -- the children under 18, and even under the age of 5.

We are already seeing the studies the vaccine works well for children over the 16. Now Pfizer asked for age of 12. But we need to go even younger.

We know, especially the young kids, are the ones that can spread it very easily. They're not as -- you know, it's not as easy for them to wear masks and practice good hand hygiene.

[14:35:04]

So until we really get them vaccinated, we're not going to be out of the woods yet.

BALDWIN: I know that at least kids under the age of 16, they remain unvaccinated, even as they head back to school. Could we see COVID vaccine requirements then for kids?

RAJ: It's very possible. And you know, schools colleges, some of them are already talking about that requirement. Elementary schools, high schools may be doing it as well.

Because, again, this is where kids are in close quarters. It's almost impossible to really keep kids appropriately distanced if they're not vaccinated.

That's part of the growing-up experience and part of the socialization that's goes on in schools is allowing them to be close to each other.

So I think vaccination is going to be a key element there.

BALDWIN: Dr. Raj, good to see you. Thank you so much.

RAJ: Nice to see you.

BALDWIN: Republicans across the country are still working to limit access to voting. Where things stand right now, next.

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[14:40:03]

BALDWIN: Right now, across the country, Republican lawmakers are trying their hardest to pass these voting laws the critics say would make it harder for so many people to cast ballots.

Supporters of the measures insist is makes voting safer.

These sweeping bills include measures that would limit access to ballot boxes and restrict mail-in voting, just to name a few.

And CNN chief political correspondent, Dana Bash, is following this for us.

Dana, tell me -- start with Florida. Tell me about the legislation.

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, Brooke, this is very similar to what we saw in your home state of Georgia to what with see trying to move through the legislator in Texas.

And I'll give you some examples of what is in this legislation in Florida.

It would require all votes to request -- all voters to request vote- by-mail ballots more frequently. It would limit hours for drop boxes.

Allow only immediate family members to drop off vote-by-mail ballots. And would have a signature-matching requirement.

So, again, just like we have seen in other states, this is being done by Republicans who argue that this is all in the name of protecting the authenticity and the integrity of the elections and not about suppressing votes.

And you certainly see in here a lot of people saying, you know, give me a break.

Just for example, a drop box, why won't there be more drop boxes for people, especially if you can make sure it is safe.

I mean, most of them -- look at 2020. There was surveillance, cameras. And there were ways to authenticate that -- you know, what they were putting in there were actual ballots.

And you know, it's just the open question, again, Brooke: Why would any state make it more difficult, not easier for people to vote? Especially given the fact that -- you know, despite what we have heard from so many --

BALDWIN: Yes.

BASH: -- you know, conservatives who are just not telling the truth.

There wasn't any evidence of widespread fraud, not even close.

BALDWIN: Or even drink water, have bottled water in the line.

BASH: Right.

BALDWIN: Tell me about the bill in Arkansas, this no water bottles for voters bill.

BASH: It's similar, really similar again to Georgia. And that is a bill that would ban water bottles for voters.

And it would -- non-voters would not be able to go to the perimeter of the polling place.

It would -- the bill would ban clerks from sending unsolicited absentee ballots to voters.

And the measure would require strict signature match for mail-in ballots.

Again, there are a lot of people who are looking at voting reform and voting integrity and saying, you know, there does need to be assurances that, you know, that the person giving the ballot in really is that person.

And it really does mean to vote for whomever it is, the slate of candidates that they are voting for. But that's fine.

But, you know, your question was important: Why not water?

BALDWIN: Right.

BASH: Why should people who -- because the election system is still really antiquated in a lot of places. People who are determined to vote sometimes have to wait in line for a very long time.

BALDWIN: Yes.

BASH: Especially in the south where it's still hot around election time, why shouldn't they be able to have water brought to them?

Again --

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BASH: -- these people who are putting these bills in place argue that, because you can't trust the people coming up to them in line. You don't know exactly what's going to happen.

But -- you know, there are ways to make it -- to allow people to hydrate and make it safe.

BALDWIN: Right. Right.

How do you think this affects mid-terms in 2024?

BASH: You know, I mean, it's -- assuming that these pieces of legislation go through the state legislatures in these key swing states that we're talking about, like Florida, like Georgia, it could really affect these -- these state races, these Senate races, these House races in particular.

Because one of the main reasons -- let's just stick with Georgia -- that Georgia, for the first time in generations, went to the Democrats for the presidency, the Democrats for the Senate, is because the Democrats followed the voting laws that the Republican legislature put in place and got out their voters.

And so if now the law makes it harder for voters to do that democrat duty, it could change the vote in a very big way.

Because the numbers were so high for Democrats. And that is the goal. There's really no other way to look at it.

[14:45:00]

And in any moment of candor, Republicans who are doing this will pretty much admit it.

BALDWIN: All right, friend. Thank you. Good to see you. Good to have you on.

BASH: Thank you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Thank you.

After weeks --

BASH: We'll miss you, Brooke.

BALDWIN: Oh, thank you, thank you, Dana.

After weeks of seeing black men die at the hands of police, is America ready to reform our criminal justice system? Activist, rapper, Michael Render, "Killer Mike," joins me next.

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BALDWIN: One-hundred, forty-seven. Counting last night in Indianapolis, that's the number of mass shootings we have had in the U.S. so far this year. That's according to the Gun Violence Archive.

[14:50:04]

And just in the last month alone, these are the cities that are dealing with all the tragedies across the country.

Cities like Chicago also in the midst of the reckoning of how police respond to these incidents. This 13-year-old fatally shot by a police officer in Chicago.

Of course, in Minneapolis, we've all been following the trial. George Floyd's family waiting for this verdict in one of the most consequential murder trials in recent memory.

So on my last day here at CNN, the one person I knew I wanted to have on, my friend, activist rapper, father, community leader, Michael Render, "Killer Mike."

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BALDWIN: Mike, I love you. Thank you for making the time.

I know you've been head down for months in a record studio. Thank you. Thank you for coming on with me.

MICHAEL "KILLER MIKE" RENDER, ACTIVIST & RAPPER: Thank you for having me.

You just unofficially announced I've been recording.

(LAUGHTER)

RENDER: But I've been recording the past six months. So I haven't -- I haven't --

BALDWIN: Sorry, Mike.

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BALDWIN: Sorry, Mike.

RENDER: It's well. What better place to come out and say, hey, I've been rapping, on your show.

(CROSSTALK)

BALDWIN: I love you. And I apologize.

Let's -- let's --

RENDER: Let's do it.

BALDWIN: Let's do it.

I interviewed you -- I think it was seven years ago, in the wake of Ferguson. Here we are again and again and again.

You know, we're having these conversations. This is America. You're a father. How are you doing?

RENDER: Well, man, it's been a rough week. My youngest son went on dialysis and is going to need a kidney transplant in the next couple of years. So I'm going to talk about more about that as the summer comes.

I want to wish similar solidarity and love. I'm supposed to be at the center with him.

But, Pony Boy, Michel (ph), Wendy (ph), your dad loves you. And I hope you're watching.

I would like to say, as a dad in this country, it's a scary time because officers of the state continue to use the uniform of the state in an abusive way.

That isn't just the killing. That is the abuse in the way I've seen people online be talked to by police.

That's in the way I've seen a U.S. soldier be engaged by a police officer, a lieutenant. That's in the way I've seen people who have the authority of the

state, including people who belong to the United States Army, bullying a black child in the same neighborhood.

There's something wrong in this country where regular citizens who are empowered by the state are choosing to abuse that power on other citizens.

And I think a day of reckoning is coming in which the proletariat, the greater base of us, the actual citizens who pay with our tax dollars, these people's taxes, there's a day coming in which everything must radically change.

Law enforcement and the way of law enforcement must change. The people who make laws is going to have to change or we will not be electing them.

And the way that people have the opportunity to be protected once they make brutal mistakes like killing people has to be changed.

Which is why Bitcoin and I, Ben & Jerry's Ice Cream are pushing the line to end qualified immunity, which will allow, finally, officers of the state to be held accountable.

BALDWIN: Your father was a police officer. You have two cousins who are police officers.

I have been in your barbershop, swag shop, right, where you all, the door is open, members of the community, members of the law enforcement community.

RENDER: Yes.

BALDWIN: But, Mike, ultimately, black men and boys and women continue to be killed at the hands of law enforcement in this country.

You mentioned your project with Ben, but how else, how else do we make it stop?

RENDER: Qualified immunity is a big one. Because in America -- America understands two things: violence and money.

If you're able to finally sue, to not only sue the departments and the cities -- because what happens is policemen are killing people that look like me and people who not look like me.

They're killing poor people, working-class people. They're killing people.

And then you get sue. And we have to not only pay for the police, continue to pay for their pensions, then as a city, as taxpayers, we have to pay the families.

The families would much rather have a live citizen, right, a live family member.

So let's get qualified immunity thrown out.

But beyond that, I am not a fan of people policing areas that they don't look like the people there. They're not sympathetic or empathetic to the people there. Or they don't live in that community.

If you're a white man --

BALDWIN: You think that matters? You think that matters?

RENDER: Yes.

BALDWIN: I was talking to Chief Ramsey, and he said not necessarily. You know, he's been in policing. Black man, been in policing for 40 years.

But you say absolutely?

RENDER: Absolutely. I have no personal disagreement with Chief Ramsey.

But what I do say is Chief Eldrin Bell, out of Atlanta, Georgia, was inspired to be a policeman by the first eight black policemen in Atlanta who were not even allowed to carry guns or arrest white citizens.

They had to change clothes in the Butler Street Y because they weren't allowed to change clothes in a police station.

It's because of those first eight officers that Eldrin Bell, one of our best police chiefs, because a police chief. It's because of those officers that men like my father and cousins were able to be policemen here.

I absolutely, unequivocally disagree.

If your city is 50 percent black, and you don't have a 50 percent or better black police force, you're going to encounter problems. I don't care if that's Detroit, Atlanta, Chicago, Jacksonville, or anywhere in between.

[14:55:03]

If you're not only, not only black, but if you're not a black person that's sympathetic and empathetic to the community.

I introduced the world to Tommy Norman seven years ago.

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BALDWIN: Yes.

RENDER: -- Tommy Norman communicate, deal with his community.

You got a chance to see him marry a black woman. You got to see him be a person who was sympathetic and empathetic to the people he's policing. There's no way that an officer of the state who is brown should be

harassing and spraying in the eyes pepper spray of another brown person.

So that brown person shouldn't be a police officer. I need him replaced with a brown person that understands and will walk and talk that other brown person through.

In the same way I've seen a 61-year-old white man hit a policeman with a hammer, drive off with a cop on his car, and get taken in without being shot.

The state is empowering people who look like me and don't look like me to be less empathetic, to be less sympathetic and to be more brutal.

This must end. If you cannot empathize with the community you're in, you should not be policing that community.

BALDWIN: Just going to let that sit for a second.

I want to broaden this out. This is my final last question for you.

Something that you said, once upon a time, to me really sat in my heart. I wrote about it in my book. You offer -- this is outside of law enforcement.

Something so simple. Every single person watching can do this.

And it touched me so deeply when you said it to me in 2014, I had my team cut the sound byte.

Roll it.

This is Killer Mike in 2014.

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BALDWIN: On a daily level, how can we make this better?

RENDER: First of all, we can get out of our comfortable norms. Meaning, you can go to a different church with a friend on Sunday and have a different experience.

You can engage in in different social climate than you're accustomed to. You can make a friend that doesn't look like you.

And you can find someone who is not like you to converse with and be open and honest with.

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BALDWIN: Do you remember that and how that is so damned important?

RENDER: Absolutely. Absolutely. I challenge you, who just heard that for the first time, I challenge it for the people that heard it seven years ago that may not have done it, do it. This Friday, go with your Muslim friend. This Saturday, go to

synagogue with your Jewish friend. This Sunday, go to a Christian church with your Christian friends. Go to a different church or mosque or synagogue. Go to a different temple.

Go somewhere and meet someone and have a conversation with someone who is not like you, not from your cultural background, and continue to push humanity forward.

I got an opportunity to ask the Dalai Lama a question a few days ago. I asked him why, when every religious organization, every religion ever has told us love is the greatest conqueror as all, do we, as human beings, continually choose fear.

I don't know if he answered the question directly but the answer he gave me was profound. We must put our religious and cultural differences aside and out the door and see ourselves as one species and race and people.

The only way you ever get to that oneness is to acknowledge your differences, to make friends with people who are different from you, so you can see and acknowledge the differences on a personal level and then begin to see the similarities that bond us all.

The creator that put my people closer to the equator, which caused me to be dark, with curly hair, is the same creator that caused people in the Caucuses Mountains to have lighter skin and longer hair.

There's no difference in the origin in where we come because we were created a thing with a purpose to have us here to live in peace and love and harmony.

And every day we choose not to connect with others is a day we choose chaos and warfare over that.

BALDWIN: Killer Mike, I love you. I hope you'll still talk to me after I said the thing.

RENDER: Absolutely. I love and respect you. I always will.

What a better place for the world to know I've been rapping.

And non-CNN related, but fellow journalists. I want to send love and respect out to Jovita Moore (ph). She's local in Atlanta. You know her. She's having surgery for brain tumors.

And we just pray because she, like you, has been a person of integrity on our news station. And someone I would like my daughter to grow up and be like. Love and respect for her.

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BALDWIN: Love and respect. Love and respect.

Killer Mike, thank you.

We'll be right back.

RENDER: All right.

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