Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Now, CDC Advisers Meeting on Future of J&J Vaccine; Criminal Prosecution of Police Officers Emerges as Key Sticking Point in Senate Police Reform Talks; Biden's Ambitious Policy Agenda Shows no Signs of Slowing. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired April 23, 2021 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN BUSINESS REPORTER: This could be a very useful fundraising tool for him as well.

[13:00:03]

He's got 30 million on Facebook

JOHN KING, CNN INSIDE POLITICS: Circle back, my friend, as we learn more. Donie O'Sulllivan, grateful for that important reporting, and thank you, grateful for your time and this very busy news week. Have a great week. We'll see you Monday.

Don't go anywhere, a busy new day. Ana Cabrera picking up our coverage right now.

ANA CABRERA, CNN NEWSROOM: Happy Friday, and thanks for being with us. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

We begin with new information just in to CNN from a meeting happening right now with CDC advisers. They're talking about the future of the Johnson & Johnson coronavirus vaccine after the rollout was paused here in the U.S.

The CDC has now learned of 16 cases of a rare, very rare clotting condition found among people who received that COVID vaccine. To be clear, this is still very rare.

Today, a vote is expected. We could see updated recommendations for this vaccine. Vaccine advisers met last week. They punted on a decision on how to move forward, saying more time, more investigation was needed.

Remember, the FDA and the CDC initially reported seven blood clot cases that led to the pause. So they are now looking at whether there are even more cases and whether other types of blood clots might be associated with this vaccine.

CNN Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is following today's advisory meeting. You have been listening in, Elizabeth. An expert source telling you that disallowing this vaccine is off the table. What more are you learning? ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Right, Ana. They are going to be keeping this vaccine in distribution. Let's look at what we have learned from our sources. Again, this vaccine is going to stay in distribution. However, they might do one of two things or both of them, put a warning on it saying, look, we have been hearing about these blood clots. This is what you need to know. And they might also put a restriction on it. They might say people under a certain age can't get it because these clots have been reported mostly in younger people.

So let's look at those reports and what we know now. And this is just in from the CDC committee. What they found is that there have been 16 total cases reported, all but one in women. One was in the clinical trial and the rest were in the vaccine rollout. 14 of those 16 were among people aged 18 to 49 and two were in aged people 50-plus. Remember, and I can't emphasize this enough, that's out of nearly 8 million people who received the Johnson & Johnson vaccine.

So, Ana, the best way to say this is, look, a reasonable person could say, I understand all this, I know what the risks are, I want Johnson & Johnson. It's one shot, and for whatever reason, I only want one shot. I don't want to come back a second time, like you do with Moderna and Pfizer.

A reasonable person could also say, you know what, I want Moderna and Pfizer, I don't want anything with an increased risk of blood clots. Moderna and Pfizer also have better efficacy. Johnson & Johnson is excellent efficacy, but Moderna and Pfizer are better. And you could decide to get Moderna or Pfizer. Either one of those decisions would be reasonable. Ana?

CABRERA: Okay. We know you will stay on top of it and bring us new headlines as they come out. Elizabeth Cohen, thank you.

Joining us, Dr. Richard Besser, who is former acting director of the CDC and the president and CEO of the Robert Wood Johnson Foundation. Dr. Besser, it's always good to see you, especially on a day like today, where we need somebody who really understands all of these issues.

Should the CDC lift the pause on the J&J vaccine?

DR. RICHARD BESSER, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, CDC: Well, Ana, before I answer that, I want viewers to know that the Johnson Foundation was founded with dollars that came from J&J. And we have stock in J&J. When I think about this question, I think having a pause was the right thing to do to fully understand what's going on and what levels of risk are.

I would expect that the CDC, that the advisory committee will allow use of the vaccine, that it will probably go down the route that Europe is doing in terms of providing a warning. And I think that there will also state that people should have a choice. And as we think about what it's going to take to get more and more people in America vaccinated, giving people information so they can make an informed decision and giving people choice will be important. That's going to be challenging for many states that have tended to have one vaccine at each clinic site. But it is something that can be worked in.

CABRERA: Explain why, why this vaccine is needed, if there is a risk. We know there have been no red flags with the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines, and according to the White House, there is ample supply of those vaccines.

BESSER: Yes, you know, in terms of -- there's a number of reasons for that. Many people are very averse to getting vaccines and having one where you can have one shot and you're done, one and done will be a plus. There are populations that are transient, that are harder to reach. Homeless populations where having a one-dose vaccine will be very important.

[13:05:01]

And it's a vaccine that is very effective.

I would expect that here in the United States, many states that have geared up and are being very effective at administrating the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines will continue to do so and can effectively vaccinate their populations without having another vaccine.

The other piece of this that I think is important, Ana, is that what we decide here in the United States could have implications for what other countries do. And having a vaccine that can be used around the globe that doesn't require ultra cold temperatures, that can be administered with one dose, will be really important in terms of vaccinating people in countries that have fewer resources.

CABRERA: We have also learned this week the U.S. might be nearing a tipping point. Vaccine supply could soon outpace demand here in the U.S. we saw daily vaccine doses administered have now dipped below 3 million per day. Only 41 percent of Americans have been vaccinated, Doctor. That is nowhere near herd immunity. So how concerned are you that we won't get there?

BESSER: Well, I think that when we talk about herd immunity and reaching 80 percent, it's an elusive concept, for many reasons. One is that there are no vaccines currently licensed for children. And so I tend not to think about herd immunity in the current state because until there are vaccines for kids, we will have a large segment of society that continues to be at risk. And it's going to be important for us to continue to follow the recommendations of public health in terms of wearing masks and keeping distant.

The other issue is that there are a lot of people who have concerns about vaccination. There's never been a public health crisis that's been more politicized than this one. And you see that play out in terms of people's interest in getting vaccinated. So there's a hard core group of people, no matter what you say, they're not going to want to get vaccinated.

But there is, I think, a large group of people where if you understand their concerns and you reach people where they are, and as people know more and more friends and family members who are vaccinated, they're going to get vaccinated. We're not going to see the 3 million doses a day because the pent-up demand will have been met, but I think we're going to see a slower trickle, and those numbers coming up.

CABRERA: I'm getting my second Pfizer shot today. I'm very much looking forward to it. A little nervous about the possible side effects, like I know so many have experienced, but I'll be posting my updates on how I feel this weekend on Twitter for those who are curious.

Let me also ask about booster shots, because today, Moderna announced it's working to have a booster ready by late summer, early fall to address the variants that are out there. When do you think people who have already been vaccinated would need a booster?

BESSER: Well, I'm about three weeks after my second dose of the Pfizer vaccine, and I can tell you, Ana, that in terms of my emotional health, it just feels good to have that protection.

The question of boosters is one that's still unanswered. And, you know, I think that some of the statements that have come out of Moderna and Pfizer about boosters has more to do with stock price and shareholders than it is around science. Because until we know the current state, right now, the vaccines that are being used are covering the variants that are circulating in the United States. And if we can reduce transmission, and everyone doing their part, we're less likely to see newer variants that pop up that the vaccines don't work for.

So it's great that they're working towards having those vaccines, but I think we're a long way from saying that people who get vaccinated now are going to need a booster.

CABRERA: Good information, Dr. Richard Besser. Thank you for being with us. Have a wonderful weekend.

BESSER: You too.

CABRERA: To North Carolina now. We have new developments in a deadly police shooting there. The White House says President Biden is aware of this shooting. What they won't say is whether the body cam footage should be released. That is what protesters in Elizabeth City are demanding. They want to see the video after the killing of Andrew Brown Jr., which happened on Wednesday. Police say they were serving Brown a warrant for felony drug charges.

Brian Todd is there for us in Elizabeth City, where a protest is going on right now. Brian, what are you seeing?

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, this is a new strategy by protesters to take their protest to the streets of Elizabeth City in midday. They had not done early before. They had done it kind of after rush hour, trying to move around and block intersections in the evening period. This is a very effective way of perpetrating their strategy here of trying to disrupt commerce in a very, very peaceful way, which they have really done for the most part here.

[13:10:03]

Right now, they're blocking -- this is Ehringhaus Street. This is a main drag in Elizabeth City where a lot of businesses are. They have been blocking this intersection and intersections down here to our right, beyond those police vehicles. They have blocked an intersection there earlier. They have got this intersection blocked, and down here, they have got another one blocked, kind of out of eye sight, but they blocked a truck from proceeding. Now, he's trying to back up there.

So, again, this has been very peaceful until just a few moments ago. We did see a moment where there was some tension between a motorist and some of the protesters here. A motorist was trying to move her vehicle through this part right here, and either go around or basically through the protesters. They blocked her. There was some shouting back and forth. A really tense moment there, but it only lasted for a few seconds when she realized she had to really just back up and go another way.

I have to emphasize, that was one moment. These protests here, I have to say, for the last two nights and now during today, have been very, very peaceful. They want transparency. They want that body camera footage released. They have not gotten it yet, and they're going to continue these protests until they get the answers they want, the transparency they want. But so far, the D.A.'s office and sheriff's office have not released the video. They say they're waiting for a court order to do so. Ana?

CABRERA: Quickly, if you will, Brian, have we been able to confirm whether or not this man who was killed by police was armed?

TODD: Well, Ana, several family members have told us he was not armed, and their family representative, Harry Daniels, has said that he was not armed. We have had family members tell us that he never carried a firearm.

So from all accounts, and, by the way, the sheriff's office has not come out and said anything about whether he was armed or not. So, by all accounts that we are getting, he was not armed.

CABRERA: Brian Todd in Elizabeth City, thank you.

The pressure is building on Congress to take action on police reform. Bipartisan talks are in full swing, but will key sticking points leave them stuck? We're on the Hill.

Plus, a frantic search for a missing Indonesian submarine with 53 crew members on board, oxygen set to run out in just hours. We have the latest.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:15:00]

CABRERA: A sweeping police reform bill stands on shaky ground right now on Capitol Hill, Democrats and Republicans at odds over how to hold police officers accountable.

Manu Raju joins us on Capitol Hill. Manu, where do these negotiations stand at this hour?

MANU RAJU, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, they're still moving but they're uncertain. It's uncertain whether they can actually get a deal by the Democrats' self-imposed deadline of May 25th, the death anniversary of George Floyd, and some key sticking points remain, one of which is how to prosecute police officers. Democrats are pushing to lower the threshold in order to bring charges against individual police officers.

According to Tim Scott, who is a top Republican negotiator, that is off the table, in his words. But the top Democrat negotiator in the House, Karen Bass, told me the opposite yesterday. She said it is essential to getting a deal. She went on to say, the point is that we have to hold -- we have got to hold police officers accountable. Essentially, now the standard that's used to prosecute an officer is so high, that's why they're never held to account. So you need to lower it, just like you would for anybody.

Now, this comes also as another key issue about whether or not officers can be sued in civil court is a sticking point as we. That's called qualified immunity. Democrats want to ensure that police officers can be sued. Tim Scott has pushed back and said how about police departments are sued instead? Karen Bass, the Democrats, are not sure if that's the way to go. It just shows you, Ana, a lot needs to get resolved if they want to get this to President Biden's desk. Ana?

CABRERA: Manu Raju on Capitol Hill, thanks for that update, Manu.

Former GOP Senator Jeff Flake is joining us to discuss further. Senator Flake, good to have you here. We have seen some compromises floated, but there are some clear battle lines being drawn here. Does this legislation have a chance?

FMR. SEN. JEFF FLAKE (R-AZ): I think it does. You have the right people working on it. Tim Scott and Karen Bass often reach across the aisle and they know what they're doing. So we're in a good place there. Whether they can bridge the divide, and it's a pretty significant divide on things like qualified immunity, remains to be seen.

CABRERA: Given your own experience in the Senate, can you just take us into the backroom negotiations? Help paint the picture in terms of what might be happening right now behind the scenes.

FLAKE: Obviously, this event, the George Floyd trial, is weighing heavily on people. And I think there's an understanding that some changes need to be made around the country. About 140 laws have been passed since George Floyd died by police departments, state legislatures, municipalities, but not anything at the federal level.

And I think there are things that need to be done at the federal level, and I think most of my Republican colleagues believe that it can be done. But there is genuine concern among Republicans that we're going to make it too difficult for people to enter the profession if we get rid of qualified immunity completely.

CABRERA: We did see a rare moment of bipartisanship yesterday. The Senate passed an anti-Asian hate crime bill. That vote was 94-1. The sole no vote came from Republican Senator Josh Hawley, saying he thought it raised big free speech questions. I'm just curious, what's your reaction to this no vote, not even willing to vote against hate crimes?

FLAKE: Well, it seems Josh Hawley likes to stand out sometimes. He certainly did on January 6th, or his response to the election.

[13:20:01]

So I think there may be more of that than anything else. Had I still been in the Senate, I would have been with my colleagues who voted for this. So I think it's more a case of wanting to stand out, frankly.

CABRERA: Fascinating new profile of Republican Congresswoman Liz Cheney in The New York Times magazine detailing a tense GOP conference meeting after her vote to impeach then President Trump. She was reportedly piled on by a number of congressmen. Ralph Norman of South Carolina reportedly told her he didn't like her attitude, John Rutherford of Florida accusing her of not being a, quote, team player, and then Mike Kelly from Pennsylvania reportedly said, quote, you look up into the stands and see your girlfriend on the opposition side. That's one hell of a tough thing to swallow.

So aside from the blatant sexism there, it really does speak to the tribalism, doesn't it, within the Republican Party? You either sit with us or you're against us.

FLAKE: It sure does. And my hat is off to Liz Cheney. I have been there. It's a tough place to be. And so I think she's done the right thing. And she doesn't back down at all. And, frankly, if she's to survive, I think it will be because she's not equivocating now. So she's done the right thing. The party, the Republican Party, desperately needs people like Liz Cheney if we're going to be a force in the future.

So I'm glad she's holding on. I'm glad she's speaking out. And my guess is she is more than used to these kind of cat calls or whatever you want to call them from the backseats. But she's in leadership. She's doing the right thing. I'm glad she is where she is.

CABRERA: I think a lot of women are used to hearing those sort of things, but you point out, you have been there. You kind of know what that feels like to be on the outside of your own party. And look where you are. You're no longer in Congress. She's holding on.

But I just wonder, when you talk about the strength of the Republican Party moving forward, do you see signs of these people who are so adamantly against the Republican Party that you represent, that maybe Liz Cheney represents, changing their ways, because right now, they seem to be in the majority of the party?

FLAKE: There are some signs. The fact that Liz Cheney, in a private vote, held on to her leadership role was pretty telling, because not many Republicans are willing to defend her publicly. But they know in their heart of hearts that the Republican Party, if we're going to succeed in the future, we have got to be more inclusive. So when they vote privately, they want her in there. They know that we can't be the party of Matt Gaetz or Marjorie Taylor Greene or others. So that is a good sign.

But it is pretty telling that you have so many Republicans that feel compelled to march down to Mar-a-Lago and, you know, obtain some wisdom from somebody there. I don't think it exists. I think the president's influence is waning. Every former president's influence wanes. He still has tremendous influence in terms of endorsing candidates. But that will lessen over time, and that's a good thing.

CABRERA: Former Senator Jeff Flake on this Friday, good to see you. Thank you very much for joining us.

FLAK: Thank you.

CABRERA: Now, listen to this. The Justice Department is charged an alleged Capitol rioter who was turned in by a woman he apparently met on the dating app, Bumble. Prosecutors say Robert Chapman bragged to his would-be date that he stormed the Capitol and, quote, made it all the way to statuary hall. The other Bumble user responds, we are not a match.

That woman then reported Chapman to the FBI, who took Chapman's Bumble picture and compared to footage from January 6th. According to court documents, nearly 400 people have now been charged in connection to the riot in the month since.

President Biden with the hard sell a day after announcing a new goal to reduce green house gas emissions, he's looking to talk up the economic opportunities. He says, go along with it. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:25:00]

CABRERA: In just a matter of days now, President Joe Biden will mark his 100th day in office. In many ways, this is just an arbitrary milestone. It's not necessarily indicative of what all a president can accomplish during their term, but it can expose what a leader prioritizes, how they view their role in history, how they plan to govern.

And President Biden's first 100 days have been nothing, if not, ambitious, bold, even. You can argue about whether he has succeeded or whether it's wise, but let's just lay it all out. The president did pass an historic $1.9 trillion COVID relief plan. He has surpassed his goal of administering 100 million COVID-19 vaccinations. We hit 200 million this week. He's focused on the climate, rejoining the Paris climate accord, shutting down the Keystone X.L. pipeline, and convening a world climate summit that is going on, as we speak, with 40 other world leaders, including Russia and China.

[13:30:05]

Speaking of foreign relations, Biden has promised our allies that, quote, America.