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A Bipartisan Group Of Lawmakers In Washington Wait For The Compromise Agreement On Police Reform; India Desperate For Help Since The Massive Surge And Lack Of Oxygen For Their High Cases Of COVID-19; The Captain Of The Capsized Boat Off Of The San Diego Coast Is Now In Custody; Two Prominent Lawmakers Under Fire For Speaking Against Former President Donald Trump. Aired 9:30-10a ET
Aired May 03, 2021 - 9:30 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[09:30:00]
POPPY HARLOW, CNN HOST: Elizabeth County -- Elizabeth City, North Carolina shot the 42-year-old while they were trying to serve a warrant. An independent autopsy commissioned by Brown's family found that he died from a gunshot wound to the back of the head.
The fatal shooting has sparked protests and demands to release all of that body camera footage publicly. A court order is needed to do that and the judge has not made that decision to allow it to be released publicly.
Brown's family was shown a 20 second clip of the video only. Last week a judge ruled they can see more footage, but said the video will not be made public for at least 30 more days.
JIM SCIUTTO, CNN HOST: A bipartisan group of lawmakers in Washington wait for it believe they are close to a compromise agreement on police reform. The House has passed the George Floyd Justice in Policing Act.
It's now stuck in the Senate. Republican Senator Tim Scott as well as Democrats Senator Corey Booker and Representative Karen Bass they're working on a compromise.
A sticking point in those negotiations has been the doctrine of what's called qualified immunity. That protects police officers from civil suits following police shootings and other acts of violence.
Colorado was the first state of several states to pass police reform despite a lack of federal action so far, becoming the first state in the country, in fact, to ban qualified immunity for officers.
Joining me now is the state's Attorney General Phil Weiser. Mr. Weiser thanks for taking the time this morning.
PHIL WEISER (D), COLORADO ATTORNEY GENERAL: Jim, please to be here.
SCIUTTO: So you did this last summer. You've limited lawsuits against officers to a maximum of $25,000 and I know you haven't had any cases yet in this category, but tell us why. What was the motivation for making this change?
WEISER: The Doctrine of Qualified Immunity has become a bit of a circular doctrine. It doesn't allow cases to be decided on the merits. It asks whether the right that's been normally violated has been clearly established, which tends to just continue to say the rights have not been clearly established. You don't end up getting rulings on the merits.
That problem has been identified by people on all sides. We said, how do we fix it in a way that is fair to officers. And so law enforcement was at the table, it was a bipartisan compromise.
And what it says is if there's a lawsuit that's judged, where someone's civil rights are violated the officer is only liable to pay, as you said, up to $25,000 if the officer didn't act in good faith. That protects those officers who were acting in good faith and provides a path for liability and accountability for those who aren't.
SCIUTTO: Yes, it's a great point on the legal issue there. Like it has to be clearly established, but if it's -- if it can't be clearly established it can never clearly established and that's sort of like the answer to the question.
I do want to ask you about the way a compromise is at least being discussed on Capitol Hill, that you would end qualified immunity not -- you know, for the in affect direct these civil lawsuits to the department rather than the individual officer. And I wonder what you think of that compromise.
WEISER: In Colorado law, like most states, that's the way it works which is entities are responsible for their agents. And the agents only pay -- in Colorado we have a similar doctrine. If they're acting in bad faith at which point the responsibility to indemnify, if you will, the employee's ends.
So what we did in this case was in some sense follow the law that we have in tort law, for example, if someone is hurt on the job because someone was negligent the state can still be liable but that doesn't mean that employees are liable for every mistake the make.
SCIUTTO: So you're saying that at least at the national level you, for instance, wouldn't be opposed to a compromise like that in Congress to direct these civil lawsuits at the department rather than the individual officer?
WEISER: I absolutely, and in Colorado we already are there.
SCIUTTO: (Inaudible).
WEISER: So right now these lawsuits have to be brought in the (ph) state court under state law, it would be to our mind a natural, to say, federal lawsuit conformed to Colorado state law. Colorado's leading the way for this compromised solution.
SCIUTTO: Understood. OK, the other issue of disagreement at the national level and I want to ask about your state experience on this, is this question of willful versus reckless. In other words when a police officer would kill or harm someone the standard for criminal prosecution today is that they had to willfully to do -- to do so.
What's being considered in slightly different language at both the House and Senate proposals is to change that too knowingly or with reckless disregard. This is Section 242 as it's done at least in the Senate -- the Senate bill. In your view would that be a fair change? Is it a necessary change?
WEISER: Well under many areas of law, for example take manslaughter, you don't have to act willfully if you are acting with reckless disregard. So, if you are driving through a stoplight you might now intend to hit somebody but doing that is reckless and that can generate civil and potentially criminal liabilities. So that change again is conforming to how the law generally functions in other cases. I don't know all the specifics on it, but the principle, as you articulated, it does make sense.
SCIUTTO: Right. And I should note the House version is called 101, the Senate version 202, in case people at home are confused.
[09:35:00]
But I wonder, listen, police officers have a tough job, right? I mean, they're encountering these kinds of situations more than you or I, right? It's just not the nature of what we do. They've got to chase people down alleyways. Those people might be carrying gun, right, or they don't always know. And I just wonder as an attorney general do you worry that changing that standard would police -- put police in the position of making hit harder for them to their jobs?
WEISER: Part of what this all brings up is training. I mentioned running a stoplight. Well, police officers do that all the time. The question is when do you do it, how do you do it? A lot of communities have been asked the question do they want their officers in hot pursuit. If so, for what crimes. Those are important conversations. We need to land those conversations and train officers accordingly.
As long as we give the officers the training, the tools, the guidance then they can follow the direction in good faith. These standards we're talking about today are for those officers who disregard the training, the guidance or who refuse to follow it.
SCIUTTO: Yes.
WEISER: And that is an area that accountability is important.
SCIUTTO: You -- I want to, before we go, talk about gun reform. You had a horrible shooting last month in Bolder. I've got a buddy who lives down the street from where that grocery store was, goes there. You know, these are scary things when they happen, particularly close to home.
Immediately following Colorado passed a tri of bills to help prevent this kind of thing from happening in the future. One, for instance, allowing municipalities to regulate firearms. Why is it that this can happen at the state level after tragedies like this, but just doesn't seem to go anywhere at the national level and still doesn't?
WEISER: Jim, we're living in a time when our national politics aren't functioning. The conversation we just had on police reform is going to be an important test of our national politics to respond to critical public policy issues. In Colorado we passed the legislation we mentioned, dealing with qualified immunity on a bipartisan basis with law enforcement at the table. That's what we need from Congress.
SCIUTTO: Yes (ph).
WEISER: The background check law that's been pending in Congress is a commonsense measure that is supported by such broad majorities, even of gun owners --
SCIUTTO: Yes.
WEISER: -- of Democrats and Republicans. It needs to get passed. We can do that in Colorado. For some reason you're right our Congress can't.
SCIUTTO: And, as you note, you did it in a bipartisan way, the state of Colorado. Attorney General Phil Weiser thanks so much for taking the time this morning.
WEISER: Great to be with you Jim. Thanks.
SCIUTTO: Thank you (ph).
HARLOW: Such a good interview. OK, well ahead for us desperation is growing across India. The country is now bringing medical students to help with the COVID surge as hospitals run out of oxygen. CNN takes you there to see how doctors are coping.
[09:37:40]
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[09:42:12]
HARLOW: India is in the grips of the world's worst COVID outbreak as essential medical supplies like oxygen are running out. Countries from around the world sending desperately needed aid, but it has been too late for many.
SCIUTTO: Yes. India's leader had declared the pandemic defeated. Clearly it's not.
HARLOW: Right.
SCIUTTO: CNN's Senior International Correspondent Sam Kiley, he's been on the ground in New Delhi in the midst of it. And Sam, it seems a consistent message you're finding there is just now overwhelming it is for healthcare workers.
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, though I have to say the public healthcare system has been so overwhelmed that you find me on the outskirts of Delhi at a makeshift camp being run by Hemkin (ph), which is a Sikh Charity.
They have been able to procure or had been able to find a few of these, the essential supplies of oxygen. This is now empty though. There are only two patients left, because there's only oxygen left here. This whole area had been full. All of these canisters are empty.
Now this is the scene in the makeshift stent of the story, but take a look at what it's like in a really significantly big and well equipped hospital.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KILEY: Tears for a much loved colleague. Dr. R.K. Himthani killed by COVID-19 in the same hospital where he'd spent a year treating other victims of the coronavirus. Grief and the inevitable silent question, who's next.
He died here in this intensive care unit because the Batra hospital where he worked ran out of the most basic necessity, oxygen.
He was not alone. The Medical Director of the hospital SCL Gupta gave the mid afternoon casualty figures in this war against a virus.
DR. SCL GUPTA, MEDICAL DIRECTOR OF DELHI'S BATRA HOSPITAL: Eight patients died today.
KILEY: Died (ph)?
GUPTA: Died just now. And five patients they are in under resuscitation may or may not survive. Just because in the capital city of Delhi and because of want of oxygen which is the lifeline.
KILEY: He knew the chances of reviving the five were slim.
When you heard this morning that you had just a few hours of oxygen and then eight patients died, what does that do to you, to the soul of a doctor?
GUPTA: I cannot explain to them my feelings. We are dying inside, we are the saviors not the murderers. And we cannot express our feelings to you. I cannot express my feelings to you sir, how I am feeling inside.
KILEY: Is it destroying you?
GUPTA: Yes.
KILEY: How long have you been a doctor?
[09:45:00]
GUPTA: What? What?
KILEY: How long have you been a doctor?
GUPTA: For forty-five years. KILEY: Must be soul destroying. I can't imagine what it must be like for you. I'm sorry.
GUPTA: I'm sorry, sir.
KILEY: Over the next hour four of the five resuscitation patients died.
In a space of about two hours when the oxygen ran out 12 people died in this hospital, which in every other respect is a first-world facility. They simply asphyxiated.
The hospital coped by advising patients to source their own supplies of oxygen to cover its erratic supplies. Local and international efforts to get enough of the gas into India's capital are still failing. India's central and national government have been unable to explain the oxygen shortages.
And as the numbers of people infected with COVID-19 soar in India along with the daily death toll, the Batra hospital, like many others, will admit no more patients. There's no point.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will not take more admissions because we don't want people to die in front of us. So, they can go to the hospital where the oxygens are available.
Dr. Kishore Chawla runs a Hindu Temple charity. He pulled through COVID before the oxygen started to run out.
KISHORE CHAWLA, CEO CHATTARPUR MANDIR: From housekeeping these and even the nursing staff, the supervisors are not working very hard.
KILEY: Fair enough. But the Indian government's failure to ensure basic supplies to hospitals in the face of a long-term pandemic is simply not going to work.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
HARLOW: Yes. Sam, wow. I mean, you listen to that doctor saying we're dying inside and then as you just brought up at the end of the piece, the failure of the Indian government on so many levels, right. And now you have the Indian supreme court ordering the government to take more action to try to curb the spread and issuing them with a really stern warning as well.
KILEY: Yes, and extraordinary political intervention essentially by India's Supreme Court. They do have an interventionist court here, has to be said.
But on this occasion it is almost struck preemptively or partly to prevent any further attempt of what they are basically suggesting the government attempts to censor the media, to censor the social media in particular, during shout-outs for oxygen, censoring government officials who are very, very, very reluctant indeed to talk publicly about what's going on. But also to require under the Indian constitution the government to up
its game frankly to simply get involved and get the oxygen out into the communities that so need it. Poppy, Jim?
SCIUTTO: Sam, this variant that has made such a difference in India, a negative difference, has shown up in other countries, including here in the U.S., but also in Israel. But Israel has seen data shows that the current vaccines do have a lot of efficacy against this. And I just wonder where India's vaccination effort stands in the midst of this crisis?
KILEY: They've got a vaccination program that has only managed to vaccinate just over 2 percent of the population at the moment. They were supposed to have sort of reinvigorated on the 1st of May, but a number of states have simply said we can't do it because we don't have enough vaccines.
So in Maharashtra state, for example, they had planned before the increased effort was made to vaccinate 800,000 a day. They had to reduce that to 200,000 due to a lack of vaccines. There are donations coming from around the world. Even Pfizer has promised some 70 million jabs. But at the moment it's still very much in its infancy. Jim?
SCIUTTO: Yes. And some help from the Biden administration as well. But I know India wants more. Sam Kiley in New Delhi. Thanks very much.
And we'll be right back.
[09:49:15]
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[09:53:45]
SCIUTTO: This morning officials in San Diego say the captain of a suspected human smuggling boat is now in custody. This after that boat capsized killing at least four people. It sent 20 -- more than 20 others to the hospital.
HARLOW: Officials say the severely overcrowded boat stuck a reef that sent dozens of people into the water. Our Stephanie Elam is following the details this morning. I mean that debris says it all. It's a tragedy.
STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it's terrifying to look at what this must have been like, especially when you look at the conditions of the water at that time, Poppy and Jim. They're saying there were five to six foot swells. Someone described it as churning a bit like a washing machine.
There were two Navy sailors that happened to just be nearby jumped into the water to help rescue here. Some people making it off of the boat through the water on their own. Six people rescued from the water.
All of this a very dynamic situation as they're trying to rescue people in what they're saying seems clear to these officials that they do believe it was a human smuggling vessel. In fact, take a listen to what it was like as these rescuers were out there bringing people out of the water.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Border Patrol is inquiring as to ho many we have accounted for.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He was saying possibly 22 to 25 is what we heard out here.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're setting up a medical triage currently for all the victims.
[09:55:00]
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We have two CPR status and three bodies or thee people on the dock awaiting evaluation.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: All patients have been lifted up to the top right up there. We do have one critical at the beach. We're doing a secondary search of the beach itself.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
ELAM: And the injuries go from hyperthermia to people who have just physical issues because they were hurt as the boat basically disintegrated. It hit this reef and then the wave just kept pounding it and broke the boat apart.
So because of that some people injured in that way. And also knowing that this search continued through the night was they were looking to see if there was anybody else out there in the water. Jim and Poppy?
HARLOW: Wow. We hope all the survivors make a full recovery. Stephanie Elam in Los Angeles. Thank you for that reporting for us.
Well ahead, to politics and two of the most prominent lawmakers under fire in their own party, from their own party for speaking out against former President Trump. What they got in return ahead.
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