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Facebook Oversight Board Upholds Trump's Suspension; Rep. Liz Cheney's (R-WY) Days as Number Three Republican Appear Numbered; Biden Sets Goal of One Vaccine Shot to 70 Percent of Adults by July 4th. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired May 05, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: All right, 10:00 on the east coast, and we do have breaking news. Good morning, everyone. I'm Poppy Harlow.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Our breaking news this morning, the ban of former President Trump from Facebook and Instagram upheld, extended a further six months. That decision coming from the company's independent advisory board, which includes a collection of people from around the world as diverse as the former prime minister of Denmark, also a Nobel Peace Prize winner from Yemen.

We should note that in making this decision, the board also encouraging Facebook to set standards for how they institute these bans. The board stated, quote, it upholds Facebook's decision on January 7th, 2021 to restrict then-President Donald Trump's access to posting content on his Facebook page and Instagram account.

However, it was not appropriate for Facebook to impose the indeterminate and standard list penalty of indefinite suspension. That's an interesting sidebar there.

HARLOW: The board basically punted on making a final concrete decision. And they're giving Facebook six months to -- it seems it's going to be the head of Facebook to make this decision. There is no question though, the former president has spend cemented his standing as the leader of the GOP, whether he's on Facebook right now or not. And this all comes just one day shy of the four-month mark of January 6th deadly insurrection at the Capitol, a riot. Many point to social media, the post, comments by the president inciting.

We begin with the implications of this decision, Donie O'Sullivan and Brian Stelter back with us. Guys, thank you.

You were with us last hour as this news came down. Now, you've had a chance to read through all of it, to listen to Facebook's response, which I'm sure was fascinating on the phone call, Donie. Explain it to our viewers. DONIE O'SULLIVAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Yes. This is basically, I think, a nightmare situation for Facebook. They set up this oversight board, purportedly independent, to basically make the difficult decisions for them. But what has happened here now is that the board has said, well, you guys were right to suspend Trump at the time in the immediate aftermath of the insurrection, but we're not so sure you were right to suspend him forever, and has now given the company six months, so until November, to figure out if Trump should be suspended or not.

So, what's going to happen next? Well, it's all back on Facebook. It's all back on Zuckerberg and it's going to create a public debate. I'm sure we'll hear from Trump saying he should be left back on, from Democrats saying he shouldn't. But all the pressure and the decision is now on Zuckerberg.

Over the past hour, the oversight board held a press call and we heard from one of the co-chairs of this Facebook oversight board. Here is what they had to say.

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HELLE THORNING-SCHMIDT, CO-CHAIR, FACEBOOK OVERSIGHT BOARD (voice over): The board has made a clear decision. Facebook's initial suspension of President Trump was correct. That's very clear. But also we're saying that an indefinite ban was not acceptable. And the reason that was not acceptable is because Facebook actually failed to follow its own rules on removing harmful content by choosing an indefinite suspension.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SULLIVAN: So, with this six-month timeline now, what that does really is it puts the spotlight back on Mark Zuckerberg and the really, really powerful role he has over public discourse in this country.

SCIUTTO: Listen, six months is a lot of time in politics. But, Brian, I want to draw attention to a particular statement from the board in the summary of the case. It says the board insists Facebook review this matter to determine and justify a proportionate response that is consistent with the rules that were applied to other users of its platform. So, in other words, he's a former president, he's a private citizen. What do we know of what those other standards are? And can I ask the simplest question, is one of those standards that the post has to be true?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: That is not a standard that Facebook upholds. Instead, it applies fact checks to inaccurate or to lies and false information, and the application, those fact checks is unclear and not always consistent. But a lot of folks expected Facebook to allow Trump back today by having the board make that decision, because these board members, many of them are free speech advocates, many of them -- they care deeply about free expression.

[10:05:08] And yet these board members looked at the evidence, looked at the aftermath of the riot and said Facebook was right to do what it did in January, it just needs to be more transparent going forward and not have indefinite suspensions.

Facebook has been raked (ph) over the calls by this report, by this board, and I heard it's probably a good thing for users and the global digital community because it's going to compel Facebook to be more transparent and to come up with clearer rules of the road that we are all driving whether we want to or not.

Here is the statement, by the way, from Facebook a few minutes ago. The company is saying, as we stated in January, we believe our decision back then to ban Trump was necessary and right. And we're pleased the board has recognized the unprecedented circumstances justified the exceptional measures we took. Nick Clegg going on to say, we will now consider the board's decision and determine an action when it's clear and proportionate.

None of this is happening in a vacuum. This is happening as Trump's voice has faded since leaving office. But as he plots a comeback and he continues to poison the democratic well. Just a few minutes ago, he repeated lies ability the election and ended a statement by saying, quote, never give up, telling his supporters not to give up on their fantasies that somehow Trump actually won when he lost six months ago.

I know lots of people like to kick Facebook, especially when it's down. It's an incredibly powerful that deserves a lot of scrutiny. But we're only talking about these rules and these regulations and these questions because of the former president's misconduct, because of his autocratic streak. I just want to remember, that is why this is on the table in the first place.

SCIUTTO: And his tendency to say and post things that aren't true, right, repeatedly, including about the election, which he's still doing. Brian Stelter, Donie O'Sullivan, great to have you on as we digest this. Thanks very much.

Well, the Facebook oversight board's decision to push out this final decision and get some standards over the next six months holds major implications for the GOP, particularly as conservatives battle, if they're still battling over the soul of the Republican Party.

HARLOW: Joining us now is John Avlon, CNN Senior Political Analyst. You always have smart takes, John Avlon. What's your take on this, connecting the power of big tech to the state of play in politics right now?

JOHN AVLON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: First of all, just step back. I don't think you can deal with the state of politics today without understanding the impact of algorithms and technology. But the duality that it's somehow free speech versus big tech doesn't actually, I think, work.

There are some important details in this report that I want to highlight, because while they're kicking it back to Facebook and saying it shouldn't be indefinite, they also say that there are certain standards should be met. One of which I think is quite significant, they say, for example, Facebook should be satisfied that Mr. Trump has ceased making unfounded claims about election fraud in the manner that justified the suspension.

Well, we know the president -- ex-president has not stopped making those unverified claims. In fact, he's doubled and trickled down on the big lie. And that virus has spread to the Republican Party writ large. So while they're right to say, there needs to be more transparency, there needs to be clarity, there should be similar standards for similar people. That line alone provides a big reality check in effect for any folks who thinks he's going to be brought back to the platform in six months.

SCIUTTO: John, let me ask you this. So it's been four months since January 6th, he's been banned from Twitter, which he used multiple times a day, 80 some odd millions followers, can't reach them via Twitter and Facebook and Instagram, that's now extended six months.

Despite that ban, you have still 70 percent of self-identifying Republicans believing his big lie about the election. You still have Republican Party leaders cowering of him, right? They need his stamp of approval. They may very well force out one among who was willing to call out. I just wondered, does this show us that Trump doesn't need that platform to own the party, those platforms?

AVLON: I think what it shows is that there's a broader right-winger echo chamber ecosystem that exists beyond anyone or even multiple political platforms. Because of the advent of hyper-partisan media, that echo chamber is perpetuating polarization, and that Trump's comes from that intimidation factor, from the base, from the money flow, from all the things that create this incentive structure to have the Republican Party embrace a lie as a litmus test and condemn people who are telling the truth.

And, look, all these things matter, right? The algorithms we know increase receptivity to extremism. But it's not the sole driver. So there is a deeper problem. And the fact that Donald Trump's press releases that are taking place of tweets now are sort of even more transparently absurd and sad and desperate, doesn't decrease their impact in a polarized political party where power has moved to the extremes. And no one except Liz Cheney apparently has the guts to tell the truth and gets punished for it.

[10:10:03]

HARLOW: What a time. John Avlon, thank you very much.

AVLON: Thanks, guys.

HARLOW: Still to come, support for Liz Cheney within her party is quickly crumbling as the GOP attempts to push her out of her leadership position. And we're now learning House Republicans may already have a replacement in mind. The details, ahead.

SCIUTTO: Plus, President Biden is setting a new role to vaccinate millions more Americans by the 4th of July. It's new strategy to speed up those shots, particularly in the face of slowing demand. Stay with us.

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[10:15:00]

HARLOW: Well, It sounds like we're going to hear soon from Congresswoman Liz Cheney on all of this hubbub about leadership, this as House Minority Whip Steve Scalise says he would back Republican Elise Stefanik to replace Cheney as the number three in the caucus.

SCIUTTO: So what's Cheney's response? A spokesperson for Cheney says, quote, this moment is about much more than a House leadership fight. Next week, we should note, a vote among GOP House members could end up stripping her of her leadership role.

CNN's Manu Raju is following the latest on Capitol Hill. And, Manu, this is now only going to need a simple majority to oust her from leadership. I know you're doing informal whips of GOP votes up there on the Hill. Does that mean this is likely over for her?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, almost certainly. In talking to multiple Republican sources who are very familiar with the process, the process they're going to use to replace Liz Cheney will be set in a simple majority of the 212 House Republican conference. That means almost certainly she will not have the votes to hang on.

Now, this is done by a secret ballot election, so it's hard to ultimately handicap how members will come down. But in just a survey, members with different factions of the House Republican Conference, it's hard to see her coming up with a coalition to hang on to her position.

And then Elise Stefanik, as you see on your screen there, is building support. I am told that she is calling various members, making clear that she has support across the conference. And a very important development is that the two top House Republicans, Kevin McCarthy and Steve Scalise, are both signaling that they would get behind her. And the fact that they're setting this as a simple majority, instead of a 2/3 majority vote, it means that they have very much little threshold to ultimately getting her into a position as the number three House Republican.

Now, what McCarthy has been privately and publicly is displeasure with Cheney. And he's been more blunt in private, getting caught on a hot mic, first reported by Axios and confirmed by us, saying very clearly that he has lost confidence in Liz Cheney.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA) (voice over): I think she's got real problems. I've had it with -- I've had it with her. I've lost confidence. Well, someone just has to bring a motion. But I assume that will probably take place. (END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Now, of course, the reason why she has been in this position has been because of her escalating war of words with the former president, Donald Trump. She's one of ten House Republicans who voted to impeach Trump. She has called on Trump's election lie that he won the election. That has not been the same as other House Republicans, including, Elise Stefanik, who voted to overturn the Pennsylvania electoral results even after the January 6th riot. Guys?

SCIUTTO: Yes, based on a lie, right? And the war of words is Cheney calling a lie a lie. It's remarkable. Manu, thanks very much.

Joining us now to talk about all of this is Republican Strategist Doug Heye. He is the former communications director for the Republican National Committee. Doug, always good to have you on.

DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Great to be with you. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: So, you've got a couple things happening. The Wall Street Journal Editorial Board, it says, purging Liz Cheney for honesty would diminish the party. I just wonder, does it matter? Clearly, Trump voters, one, they buy the lie, 70 percent, by CNN's count, GOP leadership is about to push out the only person willing to state the facts on the election. Is it done? Does Trump own the party?

HEYE: Yes, and, frankly, he has for a long time. So, part of this isn't terribly surprising. But, Jim, I've been in a whole lot of House Republican conference meetings back when I worked for the House majority leader. And I've seen a lot of contentious ones. This has taken on a different toll. And to me, it really reminds me of the end of the movie, The Joker. And if you see that movie, at the end of it, the Joker has inspired the crowd to do the fighting for him. That's Donald Trump and that's January 6th.

So what we see now is that this is a fight now within the House Republican Conference. The call is quite literally coming from within the House. And what I would say to my Republican friends, who are constantly hustling to pick up points where they now exiled or some or semi-exiled Donald Trump. Never forget, Donald Trump does not give points. He only takes them away one at a time.

HARLOW: I'm interested, Doug, in your view. I know you've been talking to Republican members, sitting members of the House right now. So I'm interested in what they're telling you, but then also your view that you have you said that you fundamentally think the Republican voter has changed over the last five years. What does that mean as it relates to the importance of facts?

HEYE: Well, first and foremost, I've heard so much from members, some who are outspoken in their support of Cheney, some who oppose.

[10:20:00]

Most of what I've heard from members is, if they would use emojis -- I disabled emojis on my phone so I don't get them.

HARLOW: You do?

HEYE: That is a (INAUDIBLE). They fundamentally don't know what's happening yet.

And part of that is, as you reference with Manu, this is a secret ballot. And if you go back to the vote that Cheney had, she won overwhelmingly in a secret ballot. And I would bet that some people who publicly oppose to her actually support her. That's what we typically call in the House the vote, yes, but no caucus. And that's certainly what we've seen so often with Republicans.

And it reflects that change in voters that you mentioned. What we've seen with the Republican voter, as it's gotten smaller, and this is important, the Republican Party has gotten smaller because Republicans have left the party. And that's increased since January 6th. So what are you left with? Essentially, a stronger base, a smaller but stronger, more intense base for Donald Trump that is loyal to Trump first and conservative principles second.

SCIUTTO: So, to that point, Doug Heye, does that mean you can overstate, one can overstate the power of Trump Republicans, right? Because if it's a greater percentage but of a smaller split of voters because they're more self-identifying independents, and, by the way, independents -- Biden won the election, they reject many of Trump's more offensive positions here, are you saying that, politically, electorally, this is not a good path for Republicans?

HEYE: It's not a good path for Republicans but it's a convenient one for elected Republicans or those who want to win primaries in saved seats, where congressional lines are drawn more favorably, where they can compare and detract with their Democratic opponent. I mean, that's the challenge that we face here. And it also shows again that conservatism doesn't necessarily really matter and loyalty to the truth doesn't really matter.

And so what is if Liz Cheney has committed an -- what is her real sin, that she won't tell that obvious truth that the election wasn't stolen, that Donald Trump, just as Kevin McCarthy said in January 6th, is responsible for what happened on January 6th.

I would say, so often, we have seen Republicans inconsistency on messaging. That's consistency.

HARLOW: Doug Heye, it's so nice to have you back on. It's been a minute.

HEYE: Happy belated birthday, Poppy.

HARLOW: Thanks my friend.

HEYE: 25.

HARLOW: 24. As the rate of vaccination plunges, the White House is aiming to get 70 percent of adults in America vaccinated with at least one dose by July 4th. How do they plan to do it, next.

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[10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: Today, President Biden will speak from the White House about his administration's new goals to end the COVID-19 pandemic. Yesterday, he outlined the ambitious new goal of getting 70 percent of the adult population of the U.S., at least their first shot by July 4th.

HARLOW: This morning on CNN, CDC Director Rochelle Walensky spoke about the administration's plan to fight vaccine hesitancy, particularly in some rural communities. Listen to this.

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DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: We are getting vaccines into pharmacy, over 40,000 pharmacies. 90 percent of people will be within five miles of a vaccine, are within five miles of a vaccine. We have walk-in appointments that are becoming available. We have rural clinics where we're shipping straight to rural clinics and providing resources to do outreach in rural areas.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Let's bring in our Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta. Good morning.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Good morning. How are you?

HARLOW: I'm well, thank you. What do you think Ron -- I mean, even Ron Klain last night to Anderson said, it's a stretch, right, it's going to be tough to get to 70 percent of folks with at least one vaccine dose by July 4th. But is it doable?

GUPTA: Yes, I think it's doable. I mean, if you just look at this from a math standpoint and look at the numbers, if we stayed on pace with where we are right now in terms of the vaccine rollout, we would get there by sort of mid-June. But we know that the numbers are continuing to go down.

So we calculated how much can they go down and still to get to the goal that they're setting out here, you could still decrease about 9 percent week-to-week and possibly get to the goal. But we'll see. I mean, obviously, we're seeing not only vaccine hesitancy come into play within those ceilings, but also vaccine fade, this idea that, look, do I really need this.

One nuanced point that I'd just like to remind people a lot is that when we think about herd or community immunity, it's really based on two things, how much of the country has immunity and how contagious is the virus. And the virus contagiousness does change to some extent based on seasonality.

Here is the point. Over the summer time, the contagiousness of the virus in the warmer and more humid conditions may be less so, so you could actually get the threshold for herd immunity more easily. But then the real question is, as you go into the fall and winter, when it becomes cooler and dryer, do you maintain that herd immunity or do you see resurgences. So even if things look good, people still need to get vaccinated, which is sometimes a hard sell.

SCIUTTO: Understood. Sanjay, until a very short time ago, even a matter of weeks, the challenge was supply and access, right?

[10:30:03]

I mean, we were all fighting to get our appointments, right? You were in line, it took forever to get it. And now that's changed.