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Vaccinated Americans No Longer Need Masks; Mask Mandate Stays In Place On Planes; House Votes On Cheney's Replacement; Former Sen. Jeff Flake Is Interviewed About The Republican Party; Stefanik Replaces Cheney. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired May 14, 2021 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:00:00]

POPPY HARLOW, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning, everyone. So glad you're with me. I'm Poppy Harlow. Jim Sciutto is on assignment today.

And we begin with a massive and a maskless sigh of relief for tens of millions of Americans this morning, but the sudden shift brings new questions, many that are tough to answer. After 14 months of all of us masking up, the CDC now says it is safe for people who are fully vaccinated, and that part is important, to leave their home without their masks. With more than 118 million people in this country fully vaccinated, it's a decision that impacts more than a third of the country.

But how can you know if the people right around you, sitting next to you, walking next to you, have they been vaccinated? And what does this mean for young children and people who can't get the vaccine yet? All of this we're going to address in a moment.

Also happening right now on Capitol Hill, a consequential vote. Right now House Republicans are meeting behind closed doors, holding a vote to determine who will replace Liz Cheney as conference chair, the number three leadership position. Congresswoman Elise Stefanik the likely choice. We'll go to Capitol Hill as soon as that vote is in and we'll let you know.

But let's begin on COVID and this huge news from the CDC. Our Elizabeth Cohen is with us.

Elizabeth, good morning to you.

A long and difficult journey here, but this news really does feel like the bright light at the end of the tunnel. For everyone watching, waking up to this, what does it mean for them?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: What it means for them is that if they are vaccinated, Poppy, the CDC says they don't have to wear masks, indoors or outdoors, except in certain situations, for example, being on a plane or train or a bus. And so there was the elation yesterday over this. Elation still today. But, you know what, some businesses and some states weighing in, saying, eh, not so fast. Let's take a look at a list of businesses where they say, you know

what, we are still going to require masks. For big ones like Home Depot, Kroger and Starbucks will still require masks. And then several stores are reviewing their mask policy. They're not just jumping to do what the CDC suggested. That's Macy's, CVS and Walgreens. And some jurisdictions, for example, Hawaii says they'll still keep their statewide mask mandate.

And what's interesting, Poppy, is this seems like it's contradicting the CDC. It's really not. The CDC set this out as sort of a general guideline but the CDC is always aware that specific businesses, specific states, specific cities might want to do something different. Maybe there's a lot of COVID where they are. Maybe the vaccination rates are low. Maybe their stores are particularly crowded. It is OK that individual places have decided to ignore them or modify what the CDC has said.

Poppy.

HARLOW: OK, Elizabeth. It is really big news. I think -- I certainly wasn't expecting it.

COHEN: Right.

HARLOW: We're going to talk much more about this ahead. Thank you for that.

For more on how people are reacting, let's go to my colleague, Miguel Marquez, in Times Square.

Miguel, no mask. Is anyone wearing masks? Because, as of last night, all my neighbors were wearing masks.

MIGUEL MARQUEZ, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Interestingly enough, here in Times Square, you know, a year ago it was terrifying in this area with nobody around. This year, lots of people and most of them wearing masks. Probably 80 percent of the people we see walking around Times Square here this morning wearing masks still despite that new guidance from CDC.

Look, it has been an absolutely hellish year. Many people are traumatized. Many people live in mixed households where some are vaccinated, some aren't. Some can get the vaccine, some can't. So it's going to take time for all of this to work through the system.

Here's how one person in the Bronx described her situation to me.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: How welcome is this news?

RENEE MADISON, BRONX RESIDENT: I am so happy. I couldn't wait.

MARQUEZ: Why? What -- wait, what does that mean to you, to the world, to where we are?

MADISON: It means more freedom. I'm tired of ordering things online and not going into the stores because the mask has to stay on so long.

MARQUEZ: Right. You don't like wearing it?

MADISON: No.

MARQUEZ: Why? It's just -- it's uncomfortable, hard to breathe, you mean like for makeup? What's --

MADISON: It's hard to breathe. I'm also diagnosed with anxiety, so I'm out of the store quicker than I'm in.

MARQUEZ: So you feel it adds to your anxiety to have a mask on? It makes you feel like claustrophobic or what's the --

MADISON: It does. Yes. I have to regulate my breathing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARQUEZ: So even those that took the coronavirus very seriously, that wore masks, that got vaccinated, they are incredibly happy to be rid of those masks. You know, that woman I spoke to as well, she was happy because, you know, she likes to dress up, she likes to feel good, she likes to have makeup on.

The mask was a pain with that. That pandemic beard (ph), that can go. Brushing our teeth, looking good, you know, all that sort of stuff is coming back. But I think it is going to take a while just based on what we're seeing here this morning.

HARLOW: Yes.

MARQUEZ: Poppy.

HARLOW: Miguel, you look good in a mask and without a mask, but I'm glad we can see your whole pretty face again. Thank you.

MARQUEZ: Thank you.

HARLOW: Oh, much.

All right, well, still, the TSA says it is mandatory to wear masks for flying.

[09:05:03]

Our aviation correspondent Pete Muntean joins me now from Washington.

I'm getting on a plane this afternoon with my family. So we'll all be masked. But I -- it's going to be interesting at the airport to see, I don't know, and on the plane, like, what are people saying? Are they annoyed? How are the airlines explaining this?

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, we're going to have to see how this pans out, Poppy. You know, CDC Director Walensky said there will be new travel guidance at some point soon, it just needs to consult with more agencies. But the message right now is pretty clear, if you're fully vaccinated,

you still do have to wear a mask on board all forms of transportation. In fact, the TSA tells me the federal transportation wide mask mandate during the Biden administration will stay in place. That means planes, trains, buses, boats and in terminals until September 13th. It was just extended, was set to expire actually earlier this week.

This is a pretty key caveat here. And one the head of the Association of Flight Attendants tells me there should be no confusion about. But we will have to see how people react to this because the FAA says there's been a big uptick in the number of unruly passengers on board planes. Thirteen hundred reports in the last three months alone.

And all of this comes as more and more people are flying. We're going into the summer travel season. In fact, the TSA says 1.74 million people pass through security at America's airports just yesterday. That is a new record of the pandemic. So we'll have to see if this creates more problems or if people follow the rules, Poppy.

HARLOW: Let's hope they all follow the rules. Thanks, Pete, very much.

Let's talk about all of these big headlines with Dr. Paul Offit, director of the Vaccine Education Center at the Children Hospital of Philadelphia, also a board member for the FDA Vaccine Advisory Committee.

It's great to have you, Dr. Offit, because I do think -- and maybe this is just me as the mom of two young kids, but like I can take my mask off now walking with them or inside with them, but they're three and five so they need to wear theirs, right? Kids are still at risk, no?

DR. PAUL OFFIT, DIRECTOR, VACCINE EDUCATION CENTER AT CHILDREN'S HOSPITAL OF PHILADELPHIA: Right. And I think at some level we're all still at some risk. I mean if I was -- if I'm in my office and I know that there's fellows and residents in my office who are all vaccinated, I'm perfectly comfortable not wearing a mask. If I have people over and I know they're all vaccinated, I'm comfortable not wearing a mask.

But if I walk into a grocery store and I see people who are masked and unmasked, I would have to assume that all those people who are not wearing a mask are vaccinated, which I think is a big assumption. This really is the honor system. So I'm still going to wear a mask if I'm in a public, indoor place and I see people who aren't wearing a mask because I don't know whether or not they received the vaccine or not.

HARLOW: You are? I mean you're so right. That word you used, make the assumption. And it's a big assumption because it's about your health and it's about -- it's about safety and essentially the CDC here is telling us to trust one another, right? I mean that's the bottom line. There's no verification, really.

OFFIT: Right. And we're not there yet. I mean there's still tens of thousands of cases a day. There's still hundreds of deaths a day. And I think if -- when those number comes way down, I guess I'll feel a little more comfortable. But you know that there's variants out there.

You know that no vaccine is 100 percent effective. And so -- so until we get there, I'm still going to wear a mask in a public place where I don't know whether or not those who aren't wearing a mask are vaccinated or not.

HARLOW: I had mentioned that you are on this FDA vaccine advisory committee. So you're in the room, or the virtual room these days, like when they're deciding about approving things like COVID vaccines for certain age groups.

Can I ask you about Dr. Fauci's comments just a few moments ago that elementary aged schoolchildren will likely not be vaccinated, he said, until the end of the year, right? So as I'm watching my, you know, niece and nephew who are like teens being vaccinated now, I'm thinking about my kids. Why is it going to be so much longer for the youngest of kids to get vaccinated?

OFFIT: Well, we've been working our way down. So initially adults, now children down to 12 years of age and now we'll go down to six years of age and then hopefully even younger than that. But that takes time. I think, you know, you want to sort of test the water with one foot. And I think also when you get to younger and younger children, you have to do more in the way of dose ranging trials.

HARLOW: Right.

OFFIT: The 12 to 15-year-old was easy. It's this -- for the Pfizer vaccine, it's the same dose -- same dosing interval. But I think as you get to younger children, you want to make sure that you have the dose exactly right and that, I think, takes a little more time.

HARLOW: Well, can you explain that a little bit more because we've seen, sadly, the number of just other vaccines plummet across America during COVID. So polio, MMR, et cetera. Now that more parents hopefully are going to catch their kids up on those vaccines if they have missed them, they can do that, right, at the same time as a COVID vaccine, right?

OFFIT: Right. So both the American Academy of Pediatrics and the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention both said that. They said that -- they're weighing these sort of two factors, one is that we have an under vaccinated childhood population now.

So while you have them in hand, give them the vaccines they need, and if it also means getting the COVID-19 vaccines at the same time, do that, even though we don't necessarily have those so-called concominate (ph) use studies where you prove that when you give those vaccines at the same time you don't interfere with the safety or immunoginistic (ph) profiles of those vaccines.

[09:10:12]

But, on the other hand, there are some people who would say, well, I know that the -- that my patients are going to come back. So what I want to do is give them the COVID vaccine two weeks before these other vaccines or two weeks after the other vaccines because I know I'm not going to lose them. And I think that's fair also.

HARLOW: All right. OK.

What are the big questions that you have this morning? Like, we were just talking to our colleague Pete about planes. You have to wear them on planes, and trains, any I guess any buses, any crowded transportation. Can you explain why?

OFFIT: I think that's the right thing to do. I think businesses should do that also because that way you sort of take the honor system out of it. And for people like me who walk onto a plane or into an airport, I know that everybody is going to be wearing a mask independent of whether they've been vaccinated and, therefore, I know that I'm safe because otherwise you have to trust that all those people you see indoors, who aren't masked, are vaccinated, which I think is a big thing to trust.

HARLOW: But -- no, I hear you, it is, but aren't we always going to have to trust? I mean unless we reach herd immunity in this country, it's always going to be a question of trust, right?

OFFIT: No, that's exactly right. So my feeling on this is, as we move through the summer and hopefully more and more people get vaccinated so we get closer to 80 percent population immunity, either from natural infection or immunization, and those numbers start tumbling way down from where they are now, then I think, you know, even though you really can't trust that situation, the risk is much, much lower.

HARLOW: OK. Thank you so much, Dr. Offit, on all these fronts.

OFFIT: Thank you.

HARLOW: OK.

Well, still to come, House Republican members are voting right now to replace ousted Congresswoman Liz Cheney. Is this a civil war within the GOP or is this really just a purge?

And two officers attacked on January 6th speaking out to CNN. Their reaction to lawmakers who called the deadly insurrection a tourist visit.

We're also going to take you live to Arizona, where a Republican-led so-called audit of the 2020 election hits pause. Why more than 2 million ballots are being moved to a storage facility next to the -- you can't make this up -- Crazy Times Carnival.

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:16:46]

HARLOW: Right now House Republicans are meeting behind closed doors and we're told they're voting right now for the new conference chair. That is the number three position in leadership. Congresswoman Liz Cheney, of course, just ousted from that position.

Our Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill.

Manu, voting happening now. Talk to us about how soon we'll know the results. I mean it's pretty much a foregone conclusion, right?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, it really is. We'll probably know within a matter of minutes here. This is a secret ballot election, so there's really no way to confirm how members ultimately vote.

They could tell you one thing and they can vote another way, which is why sometimes there are surprises, but there are not expected to be surprises here. It is widely expected that Elise Stefanik will rise, will be elected by her conference to become the number three Republican replacing Liz Cheney in the aftermath of Cheney's battle with Donald Trump.

Cheney calling out Donald Trump for his election lies. Stefanik has allied herself with Donald Trump and has Trump's support in addition to the support of Kevin McCarthy, the House Republican leader, and the House Republican's number two, Steve Scalise, all of which essentially assures that she will get the position.

Now, behind the scenes, in the -- during this conference meeting, which started about 8:30 Eastern Time, members from each side gave nominating speeches to talk about the candidates that they support. One of them was John Katko.

He's a Republican who actually voted to impeach Donald Trump but he did nominate Elise Stefanik, despite Stefanik's close alliance with Trump, he came in her support, as well as Ashley Hinson, who's an Iowa Republican, someone who comes from a swing district, came out in support of Stefanik.

There had been some conservative members who did come out for Stefanik's opponent, which is Ken -- which is Chip Roy. He's a Texas Republican, member of the House Freedom Caucus. Some members came and spoke up for him, including Ken Buck, who's a -- who came out actually supporting Liz Cheney staying in that position, but here backing Buck because -- because Chip Roy has a much more conservative voting record than Stefanik.

She had one of the most moderate voting records in the House. That's one thing that she has had to tell her colleagues over the last several -- two weeks in which this all came -- came up is that she won't buck her party. She claimed that she would stick with her party on big votes.

She will essentially toe the party line and she will only serve this term as conference chair, if elected, and try to opt for a chairmanship in the House, assuming that Republicans take the majority in the next Congress.

So all this playing out right now, defining the future of the Republican Party, and, in a lot of ways, showing where they are, which is with the former president.

Guys.

HARLOW: Clearly.

Manu, thank you. Let us know when that vote does finally come in.

As we await for that, let's talk to former Arizona Republican Senator Jeff Flake.

Senator Flake, good morning to you.

I'd like to start with a step back at the week that this has been for your party, for the Republican Party, to now have Liz Cheney's position likely going to another congresswoman who has decided to peddle in the big lie right alongside the former president. "Punch Bowl" put it this way this morning, it would be difficult to overstate how bad a week this was for House Republicans.

How do you think history will remember the week?

JEFF FLAKE (R), FORMER ARIZONA SENATOR: I agree, it's been an awful week for Republicans. Liz Cheney did a stellar job in explaining why she did what she did. I mean that speech on the House floor and then her interviews afterwards. It's been a bad week for Republicans.

[09:20:01]

Not because people care or even know who the, you know, House conference chair is, but the fact that this is a manifestation of a party that is unwilling to accept truth, that's what's really damaging.

HARLOW: You know, I thought -- I think we've been talking about this in terms of -- or framing it like a civil war within the party. But then this morning "Politico's" Jeff Greenfield pointed out something that was striking to me and said, this isn't really a civil war. In many ways, when you look at what's happening within the party, exemplified by what happened to Cheney, this is more of a purge.

Is he right?

FLAKE: Yes, I think that that -- that's more -- a more accurate description.

This is President Trump's party right now. It won't always be. I think he will lose influence more quickly than he would like. But right now this is a loyalty test. It's not a test on ideology, obviously. Liz Cheney is far more conservative than Elise Stefanik. But this is a test on whether or not you are loyal to a man. And that's a terrible place for a party to be in. And so, yes, it's more of a purge than civil war.

HARLOW: But, Senator, what tells you that he will lose influence more quickly than he would like? If a violent insurrection at the Capitol that played out, you know, before the eyes of the world didn't do it, what would?

FLAKE: Well, it's usually big election losses. Typically, with the losses that Republicans have experienced, it prompts more introspection.

HARLOW: Has it (ph)?

FLAKE: It hasn't as much yet, but it will over time. You can't just continue to go on winning elections and say outright, we're just doing the right thing.

So, over time, it will. And, frankly, no president, as much as they would like to hold influence after they lose an election, you know, they simply lose influence. And I think the president will. But he certainly hasn't now. At least a lot of Republicans are worried about running in a Republican primary and opposing the president.

HARLOW: So just this week we also saw, and there were reports of, Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene sort of chasing after Democratic Congresswoman Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez down the halls of the Capitol, yelling her name repeatedly. And now our colleagues at CNN K-file have found now deleted video that was posted in 2019 showing us this is not the first time she has done something like this.

Let's play for our viewers what happened. And, again, this is from two years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Alexandria Ocasio-Cortez, I'm an American citizen. I pay your salary through the taxes that you collect from me through the IRS. I'm a woman. I'm a female business owner. And I am proud to be an American woman. And I do not support your socialist policies.

If you want to be a big girl, you need to get rid of your diaper and come out and be able to talk to the American citizens instead of us having to use a flap, a little flap.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Kind of like, just kind of flappy.

GREENE: It's sad.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: You know, I think -- I played that for you because it's bigger than that moment or bigger than what she did to Congresswoman Ocasio- Cortez this week.

What does it tell you about the future that Republicans want?

FLAKE: Well, that's consistent with what Marjorie Taylor Greene has done in other circumstances. She chased down one of the Parkland survivors, too, with similar kind of questions.

HARLOW: Yes.

FLAKE: It's an indication that the party right now is a lot more about attitude than philosophy. It's just anger and resentment. And that's -- that's not a governing philosophy and it will only last so long. And it's certainly ascendant right now in the Republican Party. When Marjorie Taylor Greene and Matt Gaetz are cheered on by Republican audience and Mitt Romney is booed, you know that the party is in a bad place.

HARLOW: I believe it was in February that you were asked by someone, you know, well, what about a third party? What about the splintering off of the Republican Party. And you really did not think it was a good idea. That was then and a lot more has happened since then. Liz Cheney as an example. Has your mind changed?

FLAKE: No, it hasn't. Third parties don't have a good history in this country. We are, for better or worse, a two-party system that has served us well, and I think we'll get back to it. The Republican Party will likely suffer more election losses, but, ultimately, the party will realize that we need to go a different direction.

HARLOW: Are you worried about the damage that happens until the party realizes that?

FLAKE: Yes. I do. I do. I mean the damage on January 6th to our democracy and the faith in elections was tremendous. So, yes, I worry a lot. I think we're more quickly back in a place, you know, where we can -- you know, we can get back to where we were in America, if we have two parties, two strong parties.

[09:25:09]

But we need two sane parties. And right now, when you look at what's going on in Arizona, you know, a recount of a recount of a recount of votes where the former president lost, we don't have a very sane party right now.

HARLOW: Well, not for nothing, it's being moved to a place called Crazy Times. Can't make this stuff up.

FLAKE: That's right.

HARLOW: Thank you very much, Senator Flake.

FLAKE: Thank you. Thank you.

HARLOW: All right, breaking news, let's get back to our Manu Raju on The Hill.

Manu, what can you tell us?

RAJU: Well, Elise Stefanik has been elected by her colleagues as the new Republican conference chair. The third highest ranking House Republican after Liz Cheney was ousted by the conference in the aftermath of her feud with Donald Trump. Stefanik winning overwhelmingly against the conservative alternative who came up against her late, Chip Roy.

She -- the final vote here was 134 votes for her, 46 for Chip Roy -- 134 votes for Elise Stefanik, 46 for Chip Roy.

Stefanik winning overwhelmingly in the aftermath of her support that she received from former President Donald Trump, from House Republican Leader Kevin McCarthy, from the number two House Republican, Steve Scalise.

All in an attempt in what they say is to unify, to avoid distractions, and also to show very clearly here where they are is in line with the former president, Donald Trump, after Liz Cheney called out Donald Trump's election lies, has been feuding with them for some time. Also had voted to impeach Donald Trump.

She was ousted from the leadership by a voice vote earlier this week. Stefanik, over the last two weeks, has lobbied her colleagues behind the scenes, trying to assuage concerns about her more moderate voting record and ultimately did win over those conservatives, largely because of the way she positioned herself as a loyal Trump ally, defending him in his impeachment, and also -- also questioning the election results that occurred in 2020.

But, nevertheless, she has won overwhelmingly here. She will be the new conference chair. A powerful position that could help drive the party's agenda as it tries to retake the majority in 2022.

Guys.

HARLOW: And, Manu, the practical consequences of this for the American people, just in terms of what they consume from what leadership says when they, you know, step up to the mic every week is that no longer will that dissenting voice on the issue of the big lie be there, right? Remember when Liz Cheney would stand next to Kevin McCarthy and then counter what he just may have said. That's not going to happen now.

RAJU: Yes, absolutely. And Liz Cheney -- the last time Liz Cheney and Kevin McCarthy appeared at a press conference together was more than two months ago when they were asked about whether or not Donald Trump should speak at the Conservative Political Action Committee event.

And what happened there was Kevin McCarthy said he should and then Liz Cheney said he shouldn't. And then since then they have not appeared together. Things got incredibly tense and ultimately leading to her being ousted from the House Republican leadership ranks.

Now, of course, she still has her seat in Congress. She has to face re-election next year. But, yes, not having that perch where they could drive the party's agenda, the message, and showcase some unity was important to Republicans who say they want their team in line here and now they picked someone who's been in line with Donald Trump.

Poppy.

HARLOW: So she said, Liz Cheney said last night, in that interview on Fox with Bret Baier, that she's not going to run for president. Now a lot of people who have run for president have said they are not. But it was a pretty clear answer from her.

My question to you is, having covered her so closely, what does her fight look like now, that fight to do everything in her power, as she said, to make sure Donald Trump does not assume the Oval Office again? If it's not a run for president, what is it?

RAJU: Well, it's going to use her microphone to appear and make her case on television interviews, on the House floor, in speeches and the like. And part of that strategy is still being formulated. The question is, how much she'll get in terms of pushing forward, in terms of oxygen in her speech and how much attention people will pay to her as well. That will be a big challenge for her.

But her biggest challenge, Poppy, right now is winning re-election next year. She'll have a challenge. A Trump-inspired challenge. Can she win a primary? That will be the big question.

HARLOW: A lot of folks, five or so at least, lining up against her there.

Thank you, Manu.

I know (ph) you're going to want to watch this afternoon, Congresswoman Liz Cheney will be on "THE LEAD" with the one and only Jake Tapper. That is in the 5:00 hour of his show tonight.

We'll be right back.

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