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WSJ: Intelligence On Sick Staff At Wuhan Lab Fuels Debate On COVID-19's Origin; U.N. Allocates More Than $22 Million To Gaza Relief Effort; GOP Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene Compares Mask Wearing To The Holocaust; Trump's Big Election Lie Infects Georgia With More Bogus Ballot Claims; Pre-Pandemic Hoops Bounce Back With Sellout NBA Game. Aired 6-7p ET

Aired May 23, 2021 - 18:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[18:00:00]

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Well, tonight, The Wall Street Journal is reporting new bombshell evidence on whether the COVID-19 virus actually escaped from a lab.

Meantime, pre-pandemic basketball is officially back as the Knicks and Hawks play to a sold-out crowd. We are live at Madison Square Garden.

And also tonight, Georgia Election Official Gabriel Sterling weighs in as Trump's big lie spills into the Peach State.

I am Pamela Brown in Washington. Welcome to our viewers in the United States and around the world. You are live in this CNN Newsroom on this Sunday.

And tonight, this killer disease that has kept you, and me, and the whole world in lockdown for year, we still don't know for sure where COVID came from, was it a laboratory, an open market, or a military base. Of course, we can spend hours on the conspiracy theories and claims that have no grounding in reality.

But tonight, right here, some of the clearest wheres and whens about the first days of the coronavirus pandemic are coming to light. And let me remind you, this is the disease that has taken the lives of nearly 3.5 million people worldwide, so many of those people dying alone, their loved ones unable to even hold their hands as the contagious virus did and continues to do its damage.

This piece publish tonight's in The Wall Street Journal, puts a pin in the timeline of the pandemic and the world map.

Joining me now, one of the writers of that explosive piece coming out tonight, Michael R. Gordon. Michael, thanks for coming on.

From the very beginning of this emergency, Chinese officials have adamantly denied that the virus escaped from one of their laboratories, even the World Health Organization said that was unlikely. But what did you and your colleagues at The Journal find out?

MICHAEL R. GORDON, NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT, THE WALL STREET JOURNAL: Well, throughout this whole medical crisis, no theory has been proven -- fully proven. The theory that it came from a bat and then went to an animal and then went to human being, that's never been proven because they have not found any animals that have been contaminated with the virus. The theory that it emerged, it escaped from a lab was initially discounted as a conspiracy theory.

But what we found is, there's a renewed effort to take a look at the lab theory, primarily because of circumstantial evidence, but significant circumstantial evidence.

BROWN: And you said the new effort renewed. Why? What is that circumstantial evidence? And what more are you learning about the timeline and what happened to some of the employees in that Wuhan lab?

GORDON: Right. The main thing I found out with my Wall Street Journal colleagues is that there were three researchers from the lab who, according to American intelligence, fell ill in November 2019, and were so ill that they went to a local hospital.

Now, you can't say that it was COVID. You can't say it was a seasonal flu, but, circumstantially, it's quite significant because the first known confirmed case of COVID-19 in China is December 8th. And so now here you have researchers in the lab going to the hospital just in the weeks prior to the known outbreak, and so there's lot of interest in this in the U.S. government because it could be a telltale sign that the virus escaped from the lab, not that it was a biological weapon or that it was, in any way, engineered by the Chinese, but perhaps they took a virus into the lab to work on a potential vaccine and, inadvertently, it escaped.

BROWN: What more can you tell us about this intelligence, the circumstantial evidence here, and how U.S. officials are viewing it? Because from reading your article with your colleagues, it seems as though U.S. officials have different opinions about this intelligence.

GORDON: Right. And, you know, we are taking -- we're straight shooters at The Journal. We are just playing it down in the middle. We are not taking an individual stance in this debate. But a number of scientists who previously discounted the lab theory are now coming around to that view.

In terms of the government, well, the government did put out a fact sheet on January 15th that was issued by the state department, which said that some of the researchers fell ill and that it deemed as to be significant.

[18:05:12]

What we came up with was the underlying intelligence that informed this fact sheet

Now, Trump administration officials, not surprisingly, give more credence to this circumstantial evidence because they are skeptical of China. The Biden administration did not provide a comment as to whether they believe it or not, but they do say they support a fuller investigation.

And by the way, while the WHO team that visited China said they did not give any credence to the lab theory, the head of the WHO says the precise opposite, that it needs to be given -- being taken more seriously and more fully investigated.

And I would also say that China's own behavior in not sharing information on the safety record of the lab enough or the test that the lab searchers may have undergo to see whether they have antibodies, by not sharing a whole host of date about people who got sick in Wuhan Province, that behavior, withholding information, has also led to suspicions that, well, maybe they have something to hide.

BROWN: All right, Michael Gordon, thank you so much for bringing us your latest reporting on this. And as you noted, Michael, a number of high-ranking scientists and health officials subscribe to the COVID-19 lab leak theory. In March, former CDC Director Dr. Robert Redfield told CNN he's one of them.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ROBERT REDFIELD, FORMER CDC DIRECTOR: If I was to guess this virus started transmitting somewhere in September or October on Wuhan--

SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: September or October?

REDFIELD: That's my own theory. It's only an opinion. I'm allowed to have opinions now. You know, I am of the point view that I still think the most likely etiology of this pathogen in Wuhan was from a laboratory.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: All right. So let's bring in CNN Medical Analysts and Cardiologist, Dr. Jonathan Reiner, also CNN Global Affairs Analyst, Susan Glasser. Great to have you on.

Dr. Reiner, let's kick it off with you. Tell us why it's important at this stage to know where the virus originated and who may or may not be responsible in light of this most recent reporting. I mean, denials or not, 166 million people got sick with this virus that we know of.

DR. JONATHAN REINER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Right, Pamela, and 3.5 million people around the world have died. But this is not just a blame game. This is just not where we can place the blame for this virus.

The Wuhan municipal authorities first announced that there was a cluster of mysterious pneumonia on December 31st. Well, if this report is true what the Chinese knew was that workers from that lab were sick a month earlier, which meant that the virus had -- if this is true -- escaped the lab a month earlier.

And the world needed to know that a novel virus had escaped containment because during that period of time efforts could have been made to isolate China, isolate parts of that country and protect the rest of the world. But if this is true, the Chinese chose to remain silent, that's the reason.

And going forward we really need safeguards around the world to prevent this kind of lab accident from happening again and the world would need to know if it indeed -- if there's a virus that breaks containment.

BROWN: And you say if this is true, and that's because intelligence, as we know, is not a perfect science, according The Wall Street Journal, this was provided by an international partner, according to one of the sources speaking, and is being viewed as potentially circumstantial evidence. But the bottom line here, Susan, if China keeps stonewalling any investigation into the origins of the virus, what options does Biden have here, President Biden?

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFIARS ANALYST: Well, I think, listen, this existence of this intelligence, and Michael, who is a great (INAUDIBLE), rightly pointed out, that this is, what, apparently underpinned a report from the state from as far back as far as January, I think, to me, indicates first of all, why the Biden administration obviously has already been aware of this intelligence, why they have actually had a pretty consistent line here of being pretty tough and saying, China needs to be more forth coming, we don't rule out this lab theory and we demand more investigation.

You know, I was sort expecting them to take a different tone in a way when they came. And so I think the fact of this intelligence, helps me to understand why the Biden administration has actually continued to press China on its lack of cooperation.

There's also the issue of the credibility of the World Health Organization. And, again, this is in the context of an investigation. Clearly, it was insufficient. The investigation was initially done last year. And I think for the sake of understanding the virus going forward as well as looking backwards, it's pretty obvious that there's this lingering uncertainty, which is extremely troubling.

[18:10:09]

BROWN: Right. And it's interesting, just in light, Dr. Reiner, of what Dr. Redfield said to our Sanjay Gupta, that his theory, his theory was that it leaked out of the lab. And at the time, there were critics who came out and said, well, you know he's saying this without evidence.

But as we know, he had access to intelligence that others didn't regardless of whether COVID-19 leaked from a lab, because we still don't know that definitively, should this entire experience lead to changes and how these labs conduct their work?

REINER: Well, indeed. Look, there are very few labs around the world that handle, for instance, smallpox because of the concern if that kind of pathogen would break containment.

It's always been a remarkable coincidence that the epicenter for the virus was the home of a lab that specialized in the study of bat coronaviruses. Your prior guest mentioned that we have not found the animal vector, the animal reservoir for this virus. We haven't found a bat in the wild infected with this virus.

And now, if this is true, three workers with, by report, potentially respiratory illnesses from that lab are getting sick at the end of November, very, very concerning. Again, all circumstantial, but, really, when you start to get so many coincidences, it really starts to raise the concern.

BROWN: OK. Dr. Jonathan Reiner, Susan Glasser, thank you both so much.

REINER: My pleasure.

BROWN: Well, up next, did Donald Trump's Middle East policy make the Israeli-Palestinian violence even worse, as some critics contend? I will ask his ambassador to the United Nations, Kelly Craft.

Also ahead, Election Official Gabriel Sterling weighs in on Georgia's new ballot inspection and the damage the big lie is doing to democracy.

Plus, basketball is officially back. Isn't that just -- isn't that great? Isn't that exciting, as the Knicks and Hawks play to a sellout crowd. Our Carolyn Manu is live at Madison Square Garden for us tonight.

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[18:15:00]

BROWN: Over the fourth day now, a fragile truce is holding between Israel and Gaza. More than $22 million worth of U.N. humanitarian aid now allowed to enter Gaza following the widespread devastation from some ten days of Israeli bombardment. And this comes as a key Israeli cabinet warns Hamas, if rocket fire resumes, Israel will, quote, eliminate the group's Gaza's leader.

Secretary of State Tony Blinken, address the next steps in securing peace.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ANTONY BLINKEN, SECRETARY OF STATE: President Biden has been very clear that he remains committed to a two-state solution. Look, ultimately, it is the only way to ensure Israel's future as a Jewish and democratic state and, of course, the only way to give the Palestinians the state to which they are entitled.

But I hope that everybody takes from this, is that if there's not positive change and particularly if we can't find a way to help Palestinians live with more dignity and with more hope, the cycle is likely to repeat itself.

(END VIDEO CLIP) BROWN: Joining me now, former U.S. Ambassador to the United Nations under President Trump Kelly Craft. Ambassador, nice to have you on the show.

KELLY CRAFT, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATION: Thank you, Pamela. Thank you for having me this evening.

BROWN: First off, what is your read on the ceasefire and what needs to be done to ensure that this is not just temporary?

CRAFT: You know, I have to say I was very encouraged. I watched Secretary Blinken today and I was really encouraged by his optimism and also by saying he was going to engage both sides to see real improvements. And I think what was really important and what made me very happy was the fact that he said that equal measures so that the Israelis and Palestinians both have security, peace and dignity.

And, you know, I will take all roads back to Iran and I would like to hope that this ceasefire would stay in place. However, as long as we have the Iranian regime, which is funding the terror group, Hamas, and the Islamic Jihad, I just can't see that this is going to be long lasting.

BROWN: I want to -- because, that is a concern for many officials we have been speaking with, I want to get your reaction to something former Defense Secretary Robert Gates said about the situation. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT GATES, FORMER DEFENSE SECRETARY: I think there's very little prospect of peace between them at this point. I don't think there has been in quite a long time. And I think, in fact, one of the things that produced the breakthrough with the Abraham Accords between the Israelis and the Gulf states and others has been sort of essentially setting aside the Palestinian issue and moving on to a region that has changed in some pretty dramatic ways, which basically leaves Palestinians out in the cold.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: I want to get your response to that. What do you say to the former defense secretary?

CRAFT: You know, I have to say that the Abraham Accords, what the common thread to these accords was that every one recognized the common threat was Iran. So I feel as if this really, to me, opened up more of a prospect, more of an opportunity for the Palestinians to see what normalization is like with Israel.

[18:20:00]

How the countries -- a few of them which have rather large diasporas of the Palestinian population are now going to be normalized with Israel, which is going to only increase their economy, commerce, tourism. And I generally feel that, you know, with Abbas and Netanyahu both understanding that the biggest threat is Hamas and Iran, Abbas said to himself, that the Iranians are funding Hamas, as did Netanyahu.

You know, I will tell that just on Christmas Eve of last year, Christmas Eve morning, I met with Prime Minister Netanyahu that morning, and felt very warm and welcomed, the hospitality. We discussed the Abraham Accords. And then that evening, I was a guest of the Palestinians in Bethlehem, which I received equally the warmth and hospitality.

But I can tell you, the biggest concern between both the Palestinians and the Israelis are Iran and the fact that that regime is causing havoc, not only with the Hamas terror group and Islamic Jihad. But look at what they have done in Houthis in Syria -- look, excuse me, in Yemen. Look at what they have done with Assad. Look at what's happening with Lebanon, with Hezbollah. I mean week ago, on and on.

And you know the common thread, all the roads lead back to the Iranian regime and we have must see a behavior change, because until we do, the Iranian people are also at risk. So we have to remember, we care about the Iranian citizens and we have to protect them also?

BROWN: I hear what you are saying about Iran and its influence on the global stage, but, particularly, when it comes to Israel and the Palestinians, as you well know, critics have pointed out that during the Trump administration the moves were pro-Israel and they argue anti-Palestinian. Trump reverse nearly seven decades of U.S. foreign policy by recognizing Jerusalem as the capital of Israel. The Trump administration cut off aid to Palestinian and closed the Palestinian Delegations Office in Washington.

Last night, Aaron David Miller, a former Middle East Negotiator at the State Department, told me that he thinks some of those policies may have contributed to the escalation. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AARON DAVID MILLER, FORMER STATE DEPARTMENT ANALYST: Mr. Trump said he took Jerusalem off the table, but the reality is the issue of Jerusalem has now become the table and Hamas is trying to set that table.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: What do you say to those critics, Ambassador, who contend that those policies contributed to the violence we just saw and has made it easier for Hamas to exploit the situation?

CRAFT: You know, I firmly believe that Iran has been funding Hamas for many, many decades. They have been funding them both with financial means and also with military. You know, the situation, until we change the behavior of Iran, we are not going to see any change.

Hamas doesn't care about the Palestinians. You know, a matter of fact, they portray themselves as the people that care about the ordinary guy on the street. Well, you know what? They take those ordinary people, ordinary Palestinians, and they put them in harm's way, they use them as human shields.

You know, they were -- they were placing their rockets from the areas of schools from very congested neighborhoods. So what do you think Israel has to do? They have to respond and send theirs back in the same area.

So I feel -- I feel very firm about the fact that until we change this behavior, you know, the Trump administration brought forth a whole new era of peace with Abraham Accords, and I find that that has separated the issue of the Palestinian and Israel coming to the table. It has not put on pressure.

What it has done, is for the Palestinians to see that the countries that also support them that are normalizing with Israel, that they are reaping benefits and this too is available for the Palestinians. You know, as I had you every day at the --

BROWN: Let me just quickly ask you Ambassador --

CRAFT: Yes.

BROWN: Go ahead. I just want to quickly ask you, because you brought up the Abraham Accords then and touted it as a new era in peace, but a couple of -- I wanted to ask a couple of things on that. First of all, after what we just saw with the violence and escalation, does it show you the limits on creating peace in the Middle East?

Does it show you that? And were you surprised or are you disappointed that the countries involved in the Abraham Accords, the UAE, and Bahrain, did not step up more to help with the ceasefire? We've -- reportedly we've heard Egypt did, the United States, but not those countries involved in the Abraham Accords.

CRAFT: But, you know, if -- Egypt done and Jordan have also normalized with Israel. But if you notice that the countries in the Abraham Accords did not come out in support of -- excuse me, of the Palestinian -- of the Hamas terror group. They did not come out and support because they all agree that the biggest threat to the peace in the Middle East is Iran.

[18:25:00]

So I think we saw a little bit of change of commentary from the Middle East. You know, I find that their silence spoke volumes and that they are enjoying this normalization process with Israel. And they too want to see the Palestinians and the Israelis come to the table. Because, you know, there are two seats at that table, there are two place settings and we are very optimistic that one day that the Palestinians and Israelis will come together.

And I would expect that President Biden would also be very supportive of the Abraham Accords because he knows that by the Palestinians seeing the normalization and what they too can have one day that this would actually bring them closer to the table.

BROWN: I want to ask you, as we are running out of time, unfortunately, Ambassador, about domestic issues. This morning on CNN, your former colleague, Ambassador Scott Brown, was asked about the Capitol attack. Let's listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Do you agree with them, that Trump bears responsibility for the insurrection?

SCOTT BROWN, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO NEW ZEALAND: Yes, absolutely. I mean, he bears responsibility. I think his presidency was diminished as a result of this.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: He obviously did mince word there. Do you agree with him that Trump bears responsibility for the Capitol attack?

CRAFT: You know what, I see this as -- you know, they impeached President Trump. What more are they trying to do to rile up the base? I mean, are they -- is the Democratic Party concerned about the elections in 2022 because of their failed policies? You know if Biden --

BROWN: He's a Republican. That was a Republican just saying that, that he was not a Democrat?

CRAFT: Correct. Correct. I have to say that President Biden ran on being a unifier, and it is my hopes that he will be a unifier and unify this party and that we will move forward and look after the working class people and the economy and the security and the stability of our country.

BROWN: Okay. And just to be clear, that was not an answer to my question about the ambassador saying that -- the Republican Ambassador and that Trump saying that he did bear responsibility. But before we go, I've got to ask you, you are in Kentucky right now, where I grew up. I've heard from sources on the ground there that you are thinking about running for governor in Kentucky. Can you confirm that that is true?

CRAFT: You know what, since I have been home, I have really enjoyed spending time with my family, with my grandchildren. And, you know, Joe and I are very much engaged in the Craft Academy which is our academy at Moorhead State University for juniors and seniors in high school, and we are really, really engaged in 2022 and making start -- and that Kevin McCarthy is speaker of the House, and Senator McConnell is the majority leader of the Senate --

BROWN: But yes or no, are you considering a run for governor of Kentucky?

CRAFT: You know what, are you a registered voter in Kentucky? Are you going to vote for me if you're a registered voter?

BROWN: No, but I'm not actually. But I am asking you the questions here, Ambassador. CRAFT: I am exploring all avenues to where I can be best suited to move Kentucky forward. We were very concerned right now about the education of our children. We are the second to last state in the country to lift the mask mandate in June.

So we have a real problem with our children with the education, with their mental health, you know, with the fact that we have not been able to have social workers come into homes. They have not been able to attend school so, therefore, they have not had that camaraderie with their classmates. We have a real problem. We have a real problem with our economy with the shutdown of restaurants, with the shutdown of businesses. We need to bring Americans -- Kentuckians back to work.

And I can tell you, when I was negotiating NAFTA, USMCA, Kentuckians love to work and we need to bring them back to work.

BROWN: Well, I myself, I'm a proud Kentuckian. Ambassador Craft, thank you for joining us on the show to share your perspective and your views. And, of course, we'll be keeping tabs on whether you do run for governor in Kentucky. Thank you so much.

CRAFT: Thank you, Pamela, for having me.

BROWN: And up next, Republican Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene doubling down on comparing the COVID mask mandates to the holocaust. Former GOP Congresswoman Barbara Comstock joins me next to discuss the state of her party. Well be back.

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[18:30:00]

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BROWN: Republican Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene has once again stoked outrage and has once again doubled down on the offending comments. Last week Greene equated COVID mask mandates with steps the Nazis took to control the Jewish population during the holocaust. On Friday she had the chance to walk back the absurd comparison but instead she said this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN (R-GA): I stand by all of my statements. I said nothing wrong and I think any rational Jewish person didn't like what happened in Nazi Germany and any rational Jewish person doesn't like what's happening with overbearing mask mandates.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Former Republican congresswoman Barbara Comstock joins me now.

When you heard her say that, the first comments and then doubling down on it, what's your reaction, Congresswoman?

BARBARA COMSTOCK, FORMER REPUBLICAN CONGRESSWOMAN: Well, such comparisons are odious, and so is Marjorie Greene, but, you know, she's not only ignorant, running around without masks and being, you know, inconsiderate, she's dangerous and what she is preaching, you know, her political politics, but also this anti-mask anger that she has, it's just dangerous for the country.

And actually it's dangerous for Republicans because you certainly had many stories here, certainly there have been stories on other networks that point out Republicans who are believing things that she or Donald Trump or others say that -- whether the virus was a hoax or masks are a hoax, and as a result some of these people have died.

[18:35:19]

And you know, we've had two Republican members of Congress who died. So given that according to reports, not even half of Republicans in the House have yet had a vaccine, to me it makes sense that they're still having masks, so, you know, and it also, you know, every time she doesn't wear a mask, I guess the American taxpayers can be happy because she will be fined and they will pay less money to her salary. It comes straight out of his salary. So that's about the only good coming from this. But she is a danger to herself and others.

BROWN: And it is so deeply offensive, I mean, trying to compare these things.

COMSTOCK: Yes.

BROWN: It's so deeply offensive to so many people. Why hasn't GOP leadership addressed this yet?

COMSTOCK: Well, I was happy to see my friends, Liz Cheney called it evil lunacy. Adam Kinzinger called it, you know, absolute sickness and I know Peter Meijer also called it out today in very strong terms.

And I hope others will because I remember when Steve King, who made very odious statements over the years in Congress, he was a member from Iowa, he was taken off his committees which actually Marjorie Greene already has been, but she was taken off by Democrats.

He was taken off by Republicans. And then people actively worked to get somebody to replace him. I think the same thing needs to be done to Marjorie Greene. I can't believe that there isn't one sane Republican in her district in Georgia who can step up and represent, you know, strong conservative principles without being as offensive and inconsiderate and ignorant as she is every day.

And as she's out inciting more dangerous activities from her rallies, and as she runs around with, you know, Matt Gaetz who has his own problems, so this is just a horrible face for the Republican Party. And back when she was kicked off her committees by the Democrats, I suggested Republicans should not only kick her off the committees but kick her out of the caucus.

BROWN: Right.

COMSTOCK: She is a continuing embarrassment and should not be -- you know, is not somebody who represents any of the principles of any Republican that I have known over the years. And I know --

BROWN: And to be clear --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: Yes, and just to be clear, the GOP leadership, Kevin McCarthy, and as you point out, Liz Cheney has been stripped her leadership in the GOP, but Kevin McCarthy and other leaders in the GOP, they have not condemned it. Others have like Liz Cheney and Adam Kinzinger, but the leadership has not. So I just want to make sure that that is clear.

Former Congresswoman Barbara Comstock, thank you for coming on the show.

COMSTOCK: Thank you.

BROWN: The state that helped tip the 2020 election of President Biden is moving forward with a vote audit for its biggest county, Georgia election official, Gabriel Sterling, remember him? Well, he has been very outspoken against fraud claims in his state, and I'm going to speak to him, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[18:42:44]

BROWN: Well, the Arizona audit continues to make news even if it makes no sense. Workers have used UV lights to find nonexistent water marks, hunting for bamboo fibers in ballots supposedly proving they were flown in from Asia, and they've even accused poll workers of feeding ballots to tens of thousands of chickens before incinerating them. True story.

There's zero evidence as we know of any of those claims are true but now Trump's big lie roadshow has arrived in Fulton County, Georgia, where some local voters are being allowed to examine copies of all 147,000 mail-in ballots.

A reminder, Fulton County is the home of Atlanta and is heavily Democratic. Fulton County Commission chairman Robb Pitts said in a statement that it was outrageous that the county has been a target of those who cannot accept the results from last year's election.

Joining me now is Gabriel Sterling. He is chief operating officer and chief financial officer for the Georgia's Secretary of State's Office. You may remember he spoke out forcefully against Donald Trump and other Republicans who attacked Georgia's election system during the first recount.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GABRIEL STERLING, CHIEF OPERATING OFFICER AND FINANCIAL OFFICER, GEORGE SECRETARY OF STATE: Someone is going to get hurt. Someone is going to get shot. Someone is going to get killed.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Obviously, sadly, Gabriel, that was more than a little prescient when you have those words coming before January 6th. So here we are nearly six months later, Gabriel. Three separate audits of the vote in Georgia, including a hand recount. Is there any merit to what's going to be taking place in Fulton County?

STERLING: Well, what the judge has ordered is not necessarily that the litigants get to look at them, but an audit needs to be done. The rules haven't been set for that yet.

It's kind of frustrating when Chairman Pitts said in an irony he actually beat for that position in 2017, their lawyers didn't file a motion to dismiss. They didn't do a closing argument. They submitted like a single deposition. They did next to nothing to try to stop this audit from happening.

BROWN: OK. But, I mean, is there any merit to this idea that something went on in Fulton County so they need to look through the mail-in ballots? Because this is a continuation of the big lie narrative of the election, is it not?

[18:45:07]

STERLING: Yes, it's from Trump supporter-ish kind of type of people. This is a person -- Garland Favorito is the main plaintiff and he has been filing suits for years on voter potential problems in the state and they've all had the same level of merit from our point of view. But the claims are there are pristine ballots that are unfolded ballots that were just inserted, that there's machine masked ballots.

There's no evidence for any of that. Our law enforcement officers from the Secretary of State's Office spent literally thousands of hours examining ballots in Fulton County and other counties, trying to track these kinds of claims down and so far we've seen nothing give any merit to it.

BROWN: But why is your boss, the Secretary of State Brad Raffensperger, seemingly supporting this? I mean, he was the target of Trump, as we know. He has stood by the integrity of the election in Georgia. He says Fulton County has a long-standing history of election mismanagement that has understandably weakened voters' faith in its system. Allowing this audit provides another layer of transparency and citizen engagement. Why is he supporting this?

STERLING: Well, we said from day one is that all Georgians should follow their due process laws, which is exactly what is being done here. We followed the law then, we're following the law now. That's the main thing about this, and guess what?

The judge -- a judge has ordered this. So we're going to follow what the law says. This is unlike Arizona where the state Senate willy- nilly kind of did this and handed it off to a third party and they are looking for coocoo achoo crazy town stuff, I get that.

But this is a ballot lawsuit. We have to follow the law. And that's what's going to happen here. Now we are going to try to make sure this is the actual audit. What's happening in Arizona isn't.

An audit means everybody is looking at it, you set the rules beforehand, you say we all agree that this is what this means, this is what this outcome means. What we can't hand it off to like random people who claim to be auditors with no election experience, who were -- the thing in Arizona.

And so many people here I think it's handed off them directly which I don't think it will be, is they are preternaturally disposed to finding things that are normal processes, saying, aha, this is the fraud. Because they're going to want to find it. If they don't find it, they're going to intellectually manufacture it.

BROWN: Right.

STERLING: And they're going to go on to other news (INAUDIBLE) that will then pump these things up into things that aren't real which is what we're seeing in Arizona and that's our fear --

(CROSSTALK)

BROWN: So how can you ensure that won't happen in Georgia?

STERLING: Because what we're going to try to do is make sure the rules are set up in the front. I haven't seen the judge who ordered it. He's spoken from the bench so far. I think we'll probably see that on Monday or Tuesday.

Our general counsel or the attorney general of Georgia's office was there and said we want to be a part of this process to make sure that they do follow all of the chain of custody laws. That nobody is left with the ballots alone.

That we're going to decide what are they looking for, they can't make up things as they go, which seems to be what's happening in Arizona, which would change the things they're doing to do, efficiency improvements which is not how audits work.

BROWN: Let me just ask you, Gabriel, you know, you say, look, the difference here is that they went through their due process, a judge ruled on this. We should let the court system play out.

But there is this question about to what end, especially against this backdrop of the big election lie that has been fueling the Republican Party and GOP officials for months and months, even before the election. And I want to remind you of something you said to me shortly after the January 6th insurrection.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STERLING: When people make these kinds of claims they undermine sort of the underpinnings of how the republic is supposed to work, and if we get to a point where people just consistently blame cheating or we were wronged, or all those kinds of things, it undermines how the system is supposed to work and the reason we go to ballots is so we can avoid bullets. (END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So how many times do you need to go to the ballots? Where does this end, Gabriel?

STERLING: Well, this is the problem, Pamela, we are a nation of laws. They have filed a lawsuit and Fulton County was the one's supposed to defend this. This kind of goes into exactly what Secretary Raffensperger said, they just happened to be bad jobs oftentimes in many things. They did nothing to try to stop this. Like I said, they didn't do a motion to dismiss, the judge even said there's not a motion to dismiss before me so I don't have any choice in this matter.

They didn't put up any witnesses other than one deposition from one guy. They didn't do a closing argument. This is what happens if you don't try to defend your own system. So that is what's happening. Counties run elections, they sued Fulton County, so now we have to deal with the fallout from this because they continually do things that are not good for voters. And this is just another point in that matter.

BROWN: Gabriel Sterling, with the Georgia Secretary of State's Office, thanks for making time for us on this Sunday evening. We appreciate it.

STERLING: Thank you, Pamela. Have a great day.

BROWN: And up next, pre-pandemic basketball is officially back, as the Knicks and Hawks play to a sellout crowd. Our Carolyn Manno is live at Madison Square Garden when we come back. Stay with us.

[18:50:03]

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: A stellar statistic. Half of all U.S. states plus the District of Columbia have fully vaccinated at least half of their adult population. This is all from new CDC data. And in New York right now a sellout crowd is ready to watch the New York Knicks take on the Atlanta Hawks.

CNN's Carolyn Manno is at Madison Square Garden.

So, Carolyn, playoffs, the end of the pandemic, what is the mood there like tonight?

CAROLYN MANNO, CNN SPORTS CORRESPONDENT: Well, Pam, the energy is so good here. I mean, dare I say it feels like something of a normal night. Sports fans are out here, they're excited, you can see behind me. And it's really twofold like you said.

It's the fact that this is a sense of normalcy for sports fans who have been waiting so long for this. And also the fact that the Knicks are back and in the playoffs. They haven't won a playoff series in close to a decade. So fans couldn't be happier. They also told me they feel really comfortable with the protocols that are in place here. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHAUN, KNICKS FAN: The city's back, the tri-state area's back. It's a great feeling. We can get back to our regular lives and move on.

NICK, KNICKS FAN: Obviously we're being safe, taking the right precautions. So long as everyone's vaccinated, I see no problems with letting in as many people as possible using the right safety precautions because at the end of the day everyone needs to be safe. But obviously everyone here still loves their Knicks so we've got to get as many people in here as possible.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

[18:55:06]

MANNO: And Pam, Knicks' owner James Dolan said that about 90 percent of this crowd is fully vaccinated. And you can see behind me two things are happening. Vaccination cards are being checked or if a fan tests negative for the virus either in an antigen or other kind of tests, they can provide that proof and be entering into the arena as well. So everybody adhering the strict protocols by the state. And so far so good on a beautiful night in New York City.

BROWN: So far so good. It's just so nice to have good news talking about the end of the pandemic, basketball coming back. Thank you for bringing it to us there from New York City, Madison Square Garden, Carolyn Manno. We really appreciate it.

And I'm going to be back at 8:00 p.m. with another hour of CNN NEWSROOM. But class of 2021, join us as we celebrate you. Congrats messages from your favorite stars, musical performances, and a special message from Vice President Kamala Harris.

"GRADUATION 2021," a CNN special event is up next.

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ANNOUNCER: Tonight, you're invited to a star-studded graduation event with an address by Vice President Kamala Harris. Musical performances by Andy Grammer, Lukas Graham and Portugal the Man.