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COVID-19 Vaccine Not Linked to Heart Problems in Kids; Biden Shut Down Investigation of Lab Leak Theory; Biden and Putin to Meet Face-to-Face; Emilia Strong Sykes is Interviewed about Ohio's Vaccine Lottery. Aired 9:30-10a ET.

Aired May 26, 2021 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Are encouraged to report to this national reporting system when something goes wrong after a vaccine.

Notice I didn't say because of a vaccine but after a vaccine.

For example, if you get a vaccine of any kind and all of a sudden you get a terrible case of dandruff, you can report that. And then the FDA and the CDC will investigate to see if it was actually linked to the vaccine or if you just have dandruff.

So let's take a look at what happened in this case. Something much more serious than dandruff. Myocarditis, that is inflammation of the heart muscle. There were reports, they didn't see how many, but they said it was rare and relatively few reports of myocarditis after vaccination, mostly among teens and young adults.

But the CDC looked into it and they concluded that the rate of myocarditis was the same among these vaccinated people as among non- vaccinated people. Myocarditis happens. It even happens to young people. It especially happens this time of year.

That's because myocarditis is often caused by an infection and the caucsaki (ph) virus is sometimes the culprit. And so this time of year, in the spring and the early summer, is sort of the hot season for the caucsaki (ph) virus. So you see more myocarditis. So the bottom line is, CDC experts looked at this and said there is no link here. Parents, vaccinate your teens, young adults, get vaccinated.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

It's hard to be clearer than that, right? And it's not just you saying it. It's what the data indicates here.

COHEN: Right.

SCIUTTO: Elizabeth Cohen, thanks so much. COHEN: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Well, more than 15 months into this pandemic, new questions this morning over the origins of the coronavirus itself. CNN has learned that the Biden administration shut down a previously secret effort at the State Department to prove that coronavirus originated in a lab in Wuhan, China. Sources tell us they had concerns over the quality of the work.

HARLOW: But this comes as several of the nation's top health experts, like Dr. Anthony Fauci and others, are pushing for an investigation into the origins of COVID-19. Health and Human Services Secretary Javier Becerra tells a gathering of WHO delegates more transparent and a science-based probe is needed.

Let's talk about this with Dr. Celine Gounder, she's an infectious disease specialist and epidemiologist and a CNN medical analyst.

It's good to have you.

Let's start there, was it -- was it a mistake, in your mind, knowing what we know now and have learned in the last few days, of the science here for the Biden administration to shut down what was a closely held State Department effort under the Trump administration to at least investigate, look seriously at the theory that this could have originated in the lab in Wuhan?

DR. CELINE GOUNDER, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Poppy, I think it's really important to distinguish here between two different lab hypotheses. One is that this was an engineered virus in the lab through gain of function, research, something that's been talked about in various different congressional hearings. That is one theory. That really is a conspiracy theory.

The latter theory that involves a lab accident is a plausible theory. I mean, look, we've had our own lab accidents at the CDC involving anthrax and avian flu and Ebola. And so these are very plausible scenarios where the accidents do happen and you could have a leak in that way.

SCIUTTO: Well, what's changed, and we should be clear, is that no one is saying they've concluded it was a lab leak. But what has changed is that folks who had, if not eliminated that possibility, you know, dismissed it are now saying, well, it needs more work here.

Now, I wonder, just given your expertise, where does the science and the medicine, as we know it today, lead you? Is it an open question for you? Are you leaning one way or another?

GOUNDER: Jim, I think we just need to do a lot more investigating. So the two dominant theories here are the spillover from wildlife into humans and then possibly a lab accident. And so each of those -- for the lab accident, you would want to get the hospital records of the lab workers who ended up sick. We don't know if that was COVID. We would want to see, were their specimens retained that we could test them to see if they had SARS-CoV-2, what other laboratory testing was done, what scans were done.

And then with respect to the spillover theory, there are other things that have been recommended that have yet to be done. So some of that would include, you know, there's this bat cave where this virus may have emerged from. Have they done widespread testing of the local community to see what the exposures may have been? When we donate blood and people in China also donate blood, you know, you have a blood bank, you have specimens going back years. Have they tested to see when the virus emerges in those specimens?

You know, so there's a lot of things that could be done to really investigate both theories that have yet to be done.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HARLOW: Dr. Gounder, you were part of the Biden team in terms of advising them on COVID. That's correct, right?

GOUNDER: That's right. That's right.

HARLOW: Did discussions of this come up with you and the team given that -- you know, before this reporting from our Kylie Atwood today, we didn't know of the existence of this State Department program under the Trump administration and then the subsequent canceling of it in the spring by the Biden team.

[09:35:15]

I just wonder what the thought process was there.

GOUNDER: Yes, I mean, we certainly have been very concerned about a lack of transparency on the part of the Chinese throughout this entire process. And that really does feed into conspiracy theories whenever you have a lack of transparency.

Now, that's not a smoking gun. That doesn't prove anything. And there are other reasons the Chinese may not be transparent. The fact is, they want to be, you know, a dominant superpower, and being dominant in science and technology is very much a part of that. So they may not want to share the insides of their laboratory work.

HARLOW: Dr. Gounder, thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, ahead, backlash over the upcoming summit between President Biden and Russian President Vladimir Putin with critics, some, accusing the administration of rewarding Putin, despite his country's bad behavior. We'll have more on that debate coming up.

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[09:40:32]

SCIUTTO: The highly anticipated first face-to-face meeting between President Biden and Russian President Vladimir Putin, it's happening, set to take place in Switzerland, Geneva, next month. Press Secretary Jen Psaki says there are no preconditions for this talk, this summit, but the meeting is face something criticism. Some saying that the administration is, in effect, rewarding the Kremlin after a series of malign activities.

Joining me now to discuss, Jill Dougherty, she's adjunct professor at Georgetown University's Walsh School of Foreign Service. She also happens to be former CNN Moscow bureau chief.

Great to have you on, as always, Jill.

JILL DOUGHERTY, ADJUNCT PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY WALSH SCHOOL OF FOREIGN SERVICE: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: So we saw this very same debate during the Trump administration, particularly with the summits with Kim, Kim Jong-un, right? Is a summit without preconditions, given that these countries like to be, you know, on a vaulted pedestal next to the U.S., is that a reward or is it an opportunity for the current president to signal a change in how the U.S. is going to approach Russia from the way Trump did?

DOUGHERTY: You know, Jim, I think, yes, of course people, and I'm watching it on Twitter, et cetera, that people would say, well, this is a gift to Putin. And certainly President Putin likes to be on the world stage. And this will be, you know, an indication of his status in the world, et cetera.

That said, there is very little communication going on between the two countries. Diplomatically or almost any other way, you look at diplomatically, just recently, you know, within the past month or so, diplomats have been kicked out on both sides. And granted there's a bit of discussion going on at the top levels, secretary of state, foreign minister, but there is a dangerous lack of communication, in my view. And sitting down -- neither of these leaders is particularly naive. You know, they know the issues. So there's not going to be any star-struck atmosphere between them. So I do think it's worth it.

SCIUTTO: Yes. You have seen a very celebrity effort from President Biden, both during the campaign and since his inauguration to mark -- to just describe Russia and Putin in markedly different terms. In March, he called Putin a killer. Trump, of course, infamously had his Helsinki moment, I mean described so by Democrats and Republicans in almost equally outraged terms when he stood next to Putin and, you know, straight up took Putin's word over that of the U.S. intelligence community that it had interfered in the 2016 election.

What does Biden need to do to mark a reversal of that moment for the U.S.?

DOUGHERTY: I think there needs to be some hard talk on some very serious issues. You know, you have, of course, always with Russia, the strategic stability issue. You know, they just -- both countries just extended the new START arms control agreement. So what happened after that? It's going to run out in five quick years again, and then what?

SCIUTTO: Yes. DOUGHERTY: Do you bring China in? And then you have other issues. You know, there's the pandemic. There are regional conflicts, as we know. Ukraine, et cetera. Look at what just happened to Belarus, in Belarus, with the plane being forced down.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

DOUGHERTY: Interference in elections. Cybercrime, hacking, you name it. There's a lot to discuss.

SCIUTTO: Yes. And none of that activity has changed, markedly, since Biden took over, right? Russia's still in Ukraine. They had that massive build-up on the border. It's still attacking in terms of cyberattacks.

I wonder, in terms of areas of potential agreement, is resurrecting the Iran nuclear deal, to which both the U.S. and Russia, along with China, Iran and others, were a party to, a potentially likely area of cooperation going forward?

DOUGHERTY: Yes. It's, excuse me, one of the only areas that they can really cooperate, it would appear, on some of these issues right now. And that's a very important thing. And so there are these issues that Russia and the United States ultimately have to work together. They don't agree on these issues but they have to work together. And I would add climate change. I think that that's very (INAUDIBLE) Putin is beginning to take it seriously.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Understood.

Well, Jill Dougherty, it's always good to talk to you about this. Few people know it as well as you. Appreciate you coming on.

DOUGHERTY: Thank you.

[09:45:00]

HARLOW: All right, ahead, a million dollars for getting a COVID vaccine. The prize set to be awarded tonight in Ohio. But there is bipartisan criticism of the Vax-a-Million lottery. We'll speak to one of the Democratic lawmakers criticizing it, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

HARLOW: Well, tonight, the first of five lucky vaccinated Ohioans will learn if they're a millionaire. This is part of Ohio's Vax-a-Million lottery. It's an effort launched by Governor Mike DeWine to get vaccine rates up. And it worked. The vaccine rates did jump after this got announced.

[09:50:01]

Right now 2.75 million Ohioans are in this drawing, meaning they've been vaccinated. There are many more rolling up their sleeves for a literal shot at a million bucks. But there is pushback coming from both sides of the aisle. And there's

a bill calling for an emergency move to cancel it altogether. My next guest says the lottery is a, quote, grave misuse of money. Emilia Strong Sykes is the Democratic minority leader in the Ohio House of Representatives. She joins me this morning.

You don't like this. Your words, Ohioans deserve better than this. But 19,709 of your fellow Ohioans have died from COVID so far. What is more important than getting as many people vaccinated as possible?

STATE REP. EMILIA STRONG SYKES (D-OH), MINORITY LEADER, OHIO HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: Thank you for that question. And you're absolutely right, it is of upmost importance to get people vaccinated. And Ohioans do deserve better than a lottery.

But what we have seen here in Ohio and across the nation is Republicans have put politics over public health during this pandemic, and it has gravely impacted and harmed our ability to respond to this COVID crisis.

And so now the governor, as he fights Republicans in his own party in attempting to get good, straightforward, honest health information to them is combating all types of disinformation, and conspiracy theories, and now we're in a lottery.

Had we been following public health from the beginning, we would have been able to have much higher rates of vaccinations, as we've seen in other states who did follow the public health guidelines much better, but that's not where we're here -- are here in Ohio. So we do deserve better. We do deserve better than the politics that has taken over our pandemic response. And we likely would have had much better response rates and higher vaccinations.

HARLOW: Just to be clear, Governor DeWine has not, you know, been a part of the lies about a vaccine, right? I mean he's been very straight on the science here.

SYKES: No. No. His --

HARLOW: Let me just finish the question. Because you're alleging this is about politics on his part, right? This was his idea.

Here's what he says about why he thinks it's so important.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GOV. MIKE DEWINE (R-OH): I know people are going to say, hey, DeWine's lost his mind, you know, this is a waste. But what I think is a waste is now to have the vaccine that can save people's lives, and to have someone die of the COVID because they did not get vaccinated. That is a horrible, horrible waste.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Is he wrong? SYKES: No, he's not wrong about doing what he needs to do as governor

to get vaccinations. And just as I said, I've not been a strong supporter of this, but I also have been supporting vaccinations from the very beginning and have pleaded with the governor many times not to concede to the far right extremists in his party and move forward the way that he had in the beginning to make sure everyone was safe.

Ultimately, I think we all agree, if people are getting vaccinations, we're moving in the right direction. And if this turns out to be a positive thing and more people getting vaccinated, which we have seen so far, that's great. People getting more money in their pockets for vaccines in arms, that's a good place to go.

HARLOW: OK. All right. Because you're right on the numbers. I mean the Ohio Department of Health laid it out really clearly and said, before the announcement, the week before the announcement of the lottery, you had a 25 percent drop in people 16 and older getting vaccinated.

Then the weekend after they announced it, you had a 28 percent spike. And then you've got folks like this in Ohio, like Grant Lonneman, saying, hey, let's get a vaccine. If I get a million bucks out of it, I can take care of my family or, or Alaunte Jones, I feel good knowing I'm going to be vaccinated but it's also a good feeling knowing I could win a million dollars.

And my colleague, Brianna Keilar, did the math here and figured out, it's about a dime a person, right, the total cost of this, the $5 million. So do you totally oppose it? Like, if this bill came up for a vote magically today, which it's not going to, would you vote to block it?

SYKES: No, I would not vote for the bill. But I would encourage my colleagues, as well as the governor, to look at the vaccination rates amongst our Medicaid population, which is only at 22 percent, and talk about what the disparities are and why certain groups have not had the same access.

It is startling that our lower-income Ohioans are not getting the vaccines at much higher rates. It's almost double for the whole population. And so the access and understanding that there was hesitancy and moving beyond that is an important part of this discussion.

And so it's easy to kind of pick and choose what you want to talk about, but this is a collective decision and there are many decisions that could have been made much earlier in the process to ensure that we were not here. Unfortunately, that did not happen despite the calls of many people, myself included, to say, hey, we know there's going to be hesitancy, let's combat that.

[09:55:02]

We know that there's going to be access issues. Let's make sure we're getting there. But we're right now in the middle of this vaccination lottery. It has increased and it has helped. But we ultimately did not need to be here. And we could have saved many more Ohioans had we taken the steps earlier in the process.

It's a really fair point and an important -- a nuanced argument that you're making. You wouldn't vote to block it but we didn't need to get here. And maybe there's a lesson for the future. And not for nothing, the fact that it takes a lottery to get some people vaccinated is astonishing in a world where many people are literally dying in line waiting for the vaccines.

We appreciate it. Come back soon. Thank you Ohio State Representative Emilia Strong Sykes.

SYKES: Thank you.

HARLOW: Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, Manhattan's top prosecutor has convened a special grand jury to decide whether to indict former President Donald Trump or possibly others associated with the Trump Organization. The legal implications for Trump, what it means for Republicans as well as elections approach, ahead.

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