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Interview with Rep. James Clyburn (D-SC); Soon, Biden to Deliver Remarks on Economy from Cleveland; GOP Unveils $928 Billion Infrastructure Counteroffer; Witness in Trump Case Told to Prepare for Grand Jury Testimony; Studies: People Who Test Positive for COVID-19 May Develop Long-Lasting Immunity; Vaccination Interest Increased after CDC's New Mask Guidance. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired May 27, 2021 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:30:00]

REP. JAMES CLYBURN (D-SC): It does not mean absolute. We are treating it as if it means absolute.

So I hope that the committee will work on that to give a good, clear definition of what it's all about. And so that's all I've ever said.

And I did say at one point, a half loaf is better than no loaf at all. Now the full loaf would be to get rid of qualified immunity. No loaf would be to keep it.

So what's the half loaf? Somewhere between getting rid of it and keeping it.

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: So respectfully, to make sure I'm understanding you correctly, would you accept a bill that does not change qualified immunity as it stands today?

CLYBURN: I'm not going to -- I'm going to accept whatever Karen Bass tells me is the best thing that they can do. And Tim Scott, who is the Senator from our state, had been in negotiations with her. I've been supporting those negotiations.

And I'm going to accept whatever they come up with. I may not be happy with it but I'm going to accept it.

One thing I've learned in this business, you aren't always happy with the product. But you really try to do the best you can to get to where ought to be.

A good bill, I've said, is better than no bill at all. A perfect bill, no, you don't usually get perfect bills.

CABRERA: Yes.

Congressman Clyburn, I really appreciate your time. Thanks for joining us.

CLYBURN: Thank you. CABRERA: A critical moment for bipartisan talks on a massive

infrastructure deal. Today, Republicans delivered their counteroffer. But are the two sides any closer to compromise?

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:36:50]

CABRERA: President Biden is about to deliver a speech on the economy and will make the case for more investments. And he now has a counterproposal from Republicans on infrastructure.

CNN's Jessica Dean is on Capitol Hill. But, first, CNN's Phil Mattingly is in Cleveland where President Biden will be speaking this hour.

Phil, what is the White House saying to this proposal?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think there's some encouragement. If you go back and forth over the course of the last several weeks, Ana, you recognize the two sides have been very far apart. They still are quite far apart.

The White House's latest proposal, $1.7 trillion. The Republican proposal today, about $928 billion. So, far apart on the top line. Also far apart on a lot of details and, perhaps, most importantly, how to pay for the proposal.

But White House officials I've spoken to do feel like this is progress. Republicans have continued to move towards the White House on the top line. They have opened the door to more investment in particularly critical areas the White House used.

And therefore, a Memorial Day deadline the president had set is going to be extended a little bit. They are going to continue talking throughout the course of the next week.

But President Biden, who spoke to the lead Republican negotiator, Senator Shelley Moore Capito, by phone today, made it clear to reporters earlier today that the window is closing.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I told her we have to finish this very soon. And there's another Republican group that also wants to talk. But we're going to have to close this down soon.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: So, Ana, making very clear that the window is closing.

And there are a number of bipartisan discussions that are happening right now. But there are also a lot of progressive Democrats who want the president to start moving forward as quickly as possible.

The president today will be talking not just about that infrastructure plan but also a $1.8 trillion economic plan that the administration calls the Families Plan.

That is a lot to get done, a very narrow window of time. Negotiations will continue for now. How long they'll last, well, that kind of depends on where they end up -- Ana?

CABRERA: Let me ask Jessica on Capitol Hill right now about this $928 billion counterproposal on infrastructure spending.

What are the details? And is a bipartisan deal becoming more likely?

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it's still possible. As Phil said, they're still far apart and they've got to figure out where to meet in the middle, both with the numbers, the top line numbers, but also critically how to pay for this.

Let's take look at side-by-side comparisons. We can get into the details so people at home can see.

The $1.7 trillion proposal from President Biden versus the $928 billion counterproposal that was released this morning from Senate Republicans. And you see kind of where they are on various issues.

If you take a look at that list there, you'll notice they're all talking about physical infrastructure, so-called hard infrastructure.

That we've had a lot of talk here on the Hill about what is infrastructure. President Biden in the White House had included home care and other items within their proposal.

Senate Republicans are very much focused on this hard infrastructure, things like bridges, roads, things that you think about, airports, things like that, which they consider very much to be infrastructure.

And, again, it's about finding that definition.

And then the second key is also how are they going to pay for it. They're pretty far apart, still, on how they want to pay for this.

[13:40:00]

Senate Republicans have doubled down on their proposal, that they use, unused COVID relief funds to really support this bill. They also want to use user fees.

The White House has countered that much of that COVID relief money is already being used. They would prefer to repeal the Trump tax cuts and tax people making over $400,000 a year.

So, Ana, as Phil illuminated there, they're far apart. But the talks will continue.

And Senator Joe Manchin, of course, a key vote in all of this, signaling today he thought the Republicans had done a good job on this and he wants to see how this moves forward.

We will continue to see this play out here on the Hill.

CABRERA: There has been movement on both sides. I guess that is a sign of some progress.

Jessica Dean and Phil Mattingly, thank you both.

We've just learned at least one witness has already been told to prepare to testify before a special grand jury that could decide whether to indict former President Trump.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:45:49]

CABRERA: Welcome back. The criminal probe into Donald Trump's business moving forward at a fast clip.

CNN learned prosecutors told at least one witness to prepare for grand jury testimony, suggesting the Manhattan D.A. is now transitioning from collecting evidence to presenting the case.

With us now, CNN legal analyst and former federal prosecutor, Jennifer Rodgers.

Jennifer, you say this is big news. Why?

JENNIFER RODGERS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Well, as you said, Ana, it means that they're not just kind of taking the steps of putting in all the background information they need to put in, the bank records, the communications records, that kind of tedious part of grand jury service.

But they're actually going to bring in real, live witnesses, which is something that you typically wouldn't do until more of the end of this process.

So it suggests to me, not necessarily that they're charging everyone in the next few weeks, but that they might be moving forward on one particular person, for example, Allen Weisselberg, as an attempt to get him to flip.

Or at least that this phase of the grand jury is going to take less time than it might. So a matter of a few weeks instead of six months or so.

CABRERA: Would prosecutors, do you think, have convened this special grand jury if they didn't already have a bunch of people ready to testify?

RODGERS: They might if they were going to start with, as I said, the kind of heavy lift of documents and that sort of thing. Because that takes so much time.

You know, there are rules about having to put this kind of evidence in the grand jury. And it becomes very, very slow moving sometimes.

So I could have seen them do it, you know, if they were, say, a month out from live witnesses.

But the fact that they may be ready for live witnesses now, that's why I say, I think things are moving faster than expected.

CABRERA: There are a few possibilities here, if this does, in fact, lead to indictments, right? We could be seeing indictments against people, or we could see an indictment against the business itself.

Explain the difference in that.

RODGERS: Well, individual charges, of course, means that there will be a person sitting there at the defense table.

Whether it's, you know, Don Jr or Eric Trump, Donald Trump himself, Allen Weisselberg, or someone eve never heard of, there will be a person at that table who, at the end of the day, might be sentenced to jail time if convicted.

Convicting a company is a little bit different, of course, because there's no one to put in jail, which is typically the biggest penalty you face in criminal trial.

When a company is indicted and convicted, ultimately, then you're looking at remedies like dissolving the company. There may be a big fine for the company.

But it's not the same penalty so it doesn't have the same feel when you're charging an individual person.

CABRERA: Is it harder or easier to indict a company versus a person?

RODGERS: I think it's easier to indict a person, you know, in some ways because, of course, that's what we all expect, and that's what juries know how to handle, and how to think about that.

But there are challenges with indicting people because, of course, you have to prove their intent.

CABRERA: OK.

RODGERS: You have to kind of get into their mind a little bit.

It's different with a company. You know, you don't have to prove intent in that same way. You have to prove purposeful action on the part of people who were acting on the company's behalf.

But you don't really have to kind of get into the company's brain in the same way. So in that sense, it's a little bit easier.

CABRERA: Jennifer Rodgers, thank you.

We'll be right back.

[13:48:59]

RODGERS: Thanks.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[13:53:27]

CABRERA: A new coronavirus study finds people who test positive for COVID-19 develop long-lasting immunity after recovering from the virus.

CNN's Elizabeth Cohen is joining us.

This sounds like good news. What are you learning from this new research?

DR. ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Ana, it is good news. There's been so much question about how many immunity people have after infection.

And these two studies, along with some others, show antibodies are still there and looking pretty good about a year later.

We don't know how good. Is it enough to fight off COVID? They still need to figure that out. But definitely this is pointing in the right direction.

CABRERA: New data shows interest in COVID vaccines spiked after the CDC announced vaccinated people could go maskless. Tell us more about this.

COHEN: This has been another big COVID-19 question.

When Dr. Rochelle Walensky, at the CDC, announced on May 13th that if you were vaccinated, you could take off that mask in almost every situation, there were questions, would that incentivize people to get vaccinated?

So we asked the folks at vaccines.gov, hey, tell us about the visits to the Web site that day of May 13th.

Let's take a look at what those visits looked like. As you can see, on the left-hand side, you know, it was kind of going along in the morning, kind of a nice clip, and then it started to dip a little bit.

And that's normal. It usually goes down in the afternoon. But then once Walensky talked -- that's the first arrow at 2:00 p.m. -- it went up. And it kept climbing and climbing, which is very atypical for that time of day.

It reached a peak when President Biden started speaking about this issue, saying that there was this new mask guidance.

And then it started to go down. But it got to a higher level. And that higher level stayed there for quite a while.

[13:55:01]

Now, of course, I'm sure you're wondering, well, what did this mean for vaccinations? That's a whole different thing.

And so, what they found -- that's actually a measure of first doses administered. And what they found was that, in fact, the vaccination rates that were going down, down, down. That's the slope that you see there. And then it started to go up once she made her announcement.

Part of that is because children ages 12 to 15 all of a sudden were able to get vaccinated at around that exact same time. But we factored that out.

And part of it is, you know, it appears it may just have been her announcement that it really had an effect.

Now, I was talking to Dr. John Brownstein, who is the brains behind vaccines.gov, and he said maybe this really meant something to someone. But he said maybe other people will need something different.

So, for example, at CVS, they're giving away cruises if you get vaccinated, or a chance to win a cruise, a chance to win a trip to Bermuda.

In New Orleans, you get a pound of crawfish if you get vaccinated.

In Ohio, you get to enter the Vaximillion Lottery. And that led to a whopping 45 percent increase in vaccination rates.

So as Dr. Dr. Brownstein was saying, different people need different incentives.

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

COHEN: So the key here is to throw them all at them. Right.

CABRERA: I guess they can't hurt.

Elizabeth Cohen, thank you for that reporting.

And thank you so much for being with me today.

The news continues next with Alisyn and Victor.

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