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New Evidence on Trump Pressuring DOJ Officials to Overturn Election; CDC Sounds Alarm on Delta Variant. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired July 30, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:28]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Welcome to NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Victor is off today.

The CDC sounding the alarm on the Delta variant, saying -- quote -- "The war has changed." New data shows the Delta variant causes more severe disease than the original variant and is one of the most transmissible viruses ever. It is just as contagious as chicken pox and spreads faster than the common cold, the seasonal flu, smallpox, Ebola, and SARS.

And we now know that the Delta variant does not just affect the unvaccinated. It is causing breakthrough cases among the vaccinated. This new data shows, if you are infected, you can carry the same viral load in your nose and throat whether you are vaccinated or unvaccinated.

And each infected person on average can infect eight or nine others. This Delta variant causes more severe illness than earlier strains, so here is where being vaccinated really pays off. Vaccines still protect almost 100 percent against death and still roughly 96 percent against hospitalization.

The CDC director, Rochelle Walensky, says she is not crying wolf here, and other doctors agree.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ROBERT WACHTER, UNIVERSITY OF CALIFORNIA, SAN FRANCISCO: We can't pussyfoot around with this thing. We have to get more people vaccinated, because this virus is better at its job than the original, but it's going to take a while to do that, even if we're successful.

So, until then, we have to go back to more universal masking, what we have, or else this thing is going to spread like wildfire.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So we now know the reasons for why the CDC is saying put masks back on.

Within the past hour, the CDC released new findings on a big COVID outbreak among vaccinated and unvaccinated people in Provincetown, Massachusetts, sparked by July 4 gatherings. So, CNN's Polo Sandoval is in Provincetown for us.

So, Polo, tell us what you're seeing in the town and how they're reacting.

POLO SANDOVAL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: And, Alisyn, that's key, right, now because now what we know based on this new data release is that the outbreak that was certainly seen here and still to a certain degree, to a lesser degree, being felt here was part of that evidence that was considered by the CDC when it told the rest of the country that it would be wise to put those masks back on, regardless of vaccination status.

And that's what we're seeing largely here. Folks inside are adhering to this new mask mandate that requires people wear those masks while in indoor public spaces here in Provincetown. But when it comes to the actual numbers, let's break them down for you.

This is a sampling that the CDC considered as it revisited that mask guidance and found that 469 Massachusetts residents were infected during this Fourth of July outbreak. That's generally in Barnstable County, and that includes here in Provincetown; 74 percent of those -- and this is what is concerning -- were fully vaccinated, 79 percent of them actually being symptomatic.

But this is also a very telling number, which is zero. That is, so far, according to local officials, nobody has actually died because of that infection. And researchers here, what they found here is essentially that it's still important to obviously get vaccinated here.

Now, we should also mention that since that sampling was taken and considered by the CDC, this particular cluster in this part of Massachusetts continued to grow and at one point even made it up to close to 900 infections over the last several weeks.

Now, some good news and what was described as a silver lining by the local town manager here in Provincetown is that the infection rate, which is obviously a very telling number, went from its peak at about 15 percent test positivity here in Provincetown in mid-July, and has now dropped to below 5 percent, about 4.6 percent as of last check, and it's a number that continues to decline.

So that's certainly a good number that businesses here want to see, especially with a busy summer travel season. I spoke to one business owner just down the street here, Alisyn, a short while ago who decided to just close up during the height of the pandemic last year, and just the last few weeks reopened again.

And now he's prepared to have to shut down again, should that be necessary. But it's certainly a topic of conversation, but, as you see, people still out and about, enjoying this Friday without masks outside, but largely putting those masks back on when they go back indoors now that they know that what happened here just a few weeks ago certainly got the CDC's attention.

CAMEROTA: We will speak to a business owner there in just moments.

Polo Sandoval, thank you very much.

Let's bring in Dr. Megan Ranney. She's an emergency physician at Brown University. She's also the associate dean of public health there.

Dr. Ranney, it sounds like the Provincetown outbreak, the cluster there, was a game-changer for doctors and for researchers.

[14:05:00]

So, what did that teach us?

DR. MEGAN RANNEY, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: That taught us that unfortunately, Alisyn, although being vaccinated does continue to protect us against severe disease and hospitalization, vaccination does not fully break the chain of transmission.

In other words, unmasking indoors for fully vaccinated people is no longer a safe choice, especially if you have people at home like kids or elderly parents who are at higher risk or who are unvaccinated themselves.

CAMEROTA: But, Dr. Ranney, do you mean that universally? I mean, do you mean that across the country? Because isn't it's still regional?

In places like, say, Connecticut where the positivity rate is low, can your behavior be different than in places like Florida, where the transmission rate is so high?

RANNEY: So, certainly, if I were in Missouri, Florida, Nevada, Mississippi, states where the positivity rate and the case rate are through the roof again, I would be way more careful and cautious than I am here in Rhode Island, in Massachusetts or in Connecticut, where infection rate is still pretty low.

But that Ptown outbreak, that happened in a place where folks were fully vaccinated. Massachusetts is not a place that was having substantial transmission prior to that outbreak. So, my advice to folks across the country right now is, if you are going indoors into a public space, put a mask on, regardless of whether you're vaccinated or not.

CAMEROTA: Here's what really got my attention from the Provincetown cluster. Four of the people who were hospitalized were vaccinated, meaning they had bad enough symptoms to seek hospitalization.

So, did that surprise you? Or are those the numbers to be expected when you have an outbreak of 469 people?

RANNEY: That's exactly it.

So there was an outbreak of 469. Four were hospitalized. That's horrible. I wish it weren't happening. I am so frustrated and exhausted by this pandemic, just like everyone else across the country. But the really good news is, that was four out of almost 500 people.

If those folks had been unvaccinated, you know that the number that were hospitalized would be more like 100 out of those 500 people, based off of the stats that we have seen around the vaccines. It also, of course, depends on your immune system, on your other risk factors. If you are elderly, if you are immunosuppressed, if you have cancer, you are going to be higher risk for getting hospitalized if you catch this virus, unfortunately, regardless of whether you are vaccinated or not.

CAMEROTA: I mean, that's the metric that I have used all along, which is, I don't want to die. Vaccines keep you from dying.

So there are no deaths, OK, in this cluster, and the vaccinations across the country, virtually 100 percent. I mean, it virtually protects you against death by 100 percent. So I think that that's a really important one for everybody to keep in mind.

However, I think that all this stuff about the Delta variant is very sobering in terms of it -- them finding out, I mean, in this new research that we just read an hour ago, that it -- one person, one infected person doesn't just spread it to one more person. They spread it to eight or nine others.

RANNEY: That's exactly right.

We saw super-spreaders earlier in the pandemic. There were those super-spreader events that were responsible for hundreds of infections. What's really surprising here is that a vaccinated person can be a super-spreader. That's what's so disturbing about this cluster to many of us.

CAMEROTA: Do you have any idea, and did has the CDC done any research on whether or not, if you're vaccinated, and you get one of these breakthrough infections, can you still get long COVID? That's another thing that people are really trying to protect against.

So it's one thing to get a positive test, and you can go along with your life if you're asymptomatic. But long COVID symptoms are something that people are scared about. Do we have any new research on that?

RANNEY: We don't, to my knowledge.

Many of us are waiting for that. I have many friends and honestly family members who were infected by COVID prior to being able to be vaccinated who are still experiencing symptoms. My own sister still can't smell more than six months after catching COVID at work.

So it is a very real concern. And we just don't know with these breakthrough infections yet whether those long COVID symptoms happen or not.

I can only guess that they will. I mean, we're reporting viral loads in vaccinated people who catch COVID that are similar to the viral loads in unvaccinated people. And it's that viral load that's going to cause the immune response and then potentially cause long COVID symptoms.

But that's a guess. We're waiting on data still.

CAMEROTA: What's happening in your area and your E.R.?

RANNEY: So, I'm heading into the E.R. after I get off with you this afternoon.

We are definitely seeing an increase in cases locally, despite our excellent statewide vaccination rates. There are, of course, still communities and pockets that are not vaccinated, and we are now in substantial transmission here in Rhode Island.

[14:10:00]

We have put universal mask mandates back in place across our hospital. We have seen our governor put strong mask recommendations in place for all schools across the state. And many businesses are starting to put mass mandates back in place as well. I am concerned about the next month or so.

It feels once again like the surge, the wave is coming.

CAMEROTA: Gosh, that is so hard to hear.

But, Dr. Megan Ranney, we appreciate you giving it to us straight. Thanks so much for all of your wisdom.

RANNEY: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: OK, joining us now is Ken Horgan. He's the owner of the Pilgrim House in Provincetown, who is now requiring anyone who stays at his hotel to show proof of vaccination.

Ken, thank you so much for your time. We have been watching what's going on in Provincetown so closely.

So, how did you get to your decision that you're going to require all people coming into your hotel to show proof of vaccination?

KEN HORGAN, OWNER, PILGRIM HOUSE: Well, it's interesting.

Earlier, I think, Alisyn, you use the word sobering. We had a very sobering experience that -- shortly after the Fourth of July week, which is a huge celebration here in Provincetown. We started to get the initial reports of some strange infection rates among vaccinated individuals.

And then as time went on, we saw more and more cases, until we eventually saw a number that was large enough to make a lot of us kind of scratch our head and say, wait a minute, is this something?

We were under the impression, I personally was under the impression that it will be difficult to contract almost, as all of us thought, 90-something percent effective. I thought that meant 90-something effective from not getting the virus, but I was educated quickly, as all of us were here, getting vaccinated does not give you the ability to engage in high-risk activities or otherwise assume that you don't have to take any precautions.

So I think that once that happened here in Provincetown, not only did the local government react, but the business community, I'm proud to say, banded together and very quickly instituted our own policies of requiring masks doors.

And a lot of us businesses in town followed the lead of Jill Botway from the Boatslip. If anyone's been to Provincetown, the Boatslip is our Eiffel Tower. You can't come to Ptown without going to Tea Dance.

And she had required evidence of vaccination cards from the very beginning of the season. So, this was well before there was any sort of evidence of outbreaks or resistance or the Delta variant.

So, we all knew that it was a viable business option to make vaccination evidence mandatory to enter our properties. So we have done so in our restaurants, in our hotel, and also in our showroom.

And, overwhelmingly, the response has been not only positive, but almost celebratory. I think people are proud to show that they have been vaccinated and they're doing their part.

Provincetown is one of the highest vaccinated populations in the country. And I know the doctor before said it was surprising to see the outbreak here in Provincetown amongst the highly vaccinated population, I would say it's not so surprising when you see an influx of tens of thousands of visitors from all around the world.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HORGAN: Just highlighting the importance of vaccinations worldwide, definitely in the country.

But if you're planning to travel and you're not vaccinated, please, please don't pump the Provincetown. We really take our health seriously. And for our local businesses to thrive, we need to stay operational. And to stay operational, we need to stay healthy.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

That's a really important message, Ken.

So what's the mood like in Provincetown right now? I mean, I know it's always so celebratory, but, right now, are people approaching with caution? Have you seen the crowds thin out and have some businesses closed?

HORGAN: I can't -- well, I can say that we -- I can tell you what we have done.

We had some positive test results here with our vaccinated team. I'm happy to say all but one are returned to work fully healthy, fully vaccinated. And one hopefully we will be back soon. And I think that most other local businesses had a bit of a hiccup, a speed bump, after it was evident that our work force was really hit hard.

And so I think there was a bit of fear. The recent data that we're seeing and the indication is that we're on the other side of this, and now that we're requiring vaccinations and wearing masks, we're mitigating the potential risks.

And I think we're all becoming a little more educated about what COVID 2.0 is going to look like.

CAMEROTA: I think you're right.

HORGAN: And as far as the mood goes, Alisyn...

CAMEROTA: Yes.

HORGAN: ... and you will see next week, when you're here, it takes a lot more than masks to keep Ptown down.

This is the center of celebration of everyone. And we have been through much worse over the years. And Provincetown is unique in that way.

[14:15:07]

CAMEROTA: I know that to be true. It is a magical place. So I really hope just good health for all of you there.

And it sounds like you're leading the way in terms of showing how to keep businesses open and stay healthy.

Ken Horgan, thanks so much.

HORGAN: Thank you. Safe travels. We will see you soon.

CAMEROTA: Thank you.

OK, we have some breaking news surrounding former President Donald Trump and a phone call that he reportedly had with DOJ officials that shows just how far he was trying to go upend the election results.

Plus, the DOJ is now telling the Treasury Department to hand over the former president's tax returns to the House committee.

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[14:20:10]

CAMEROTA: We have two breaking news stories connected to former President Trump.

First, the Department of Justice dealing a major blow to Trump's efforts to keep his tax returns private, the DOJ instructing the Treasury department to turn over Trump's tax returns to the House Ways and Means Committee.

Also, sources tell CNN the former president pressured top Justice Department officials to declare that the election was corrupt on a phone call, though there was no evidence, and those DOJ officials took notes on everything he said.

CNN's Lauren Fox and Paula Reid are following the latest for us.

So, first, Lauren, what are you learning about the former president's tax returns?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, just a short time ago, Alisyn, there was new direction from the Office of Legal Counsel at the Justice Department laying out that it is their legal belief that the Treasury department must turn over Donald Trump's tax returns, which were requested more than two years ago, to the House Ways and Means Committee.

This has been a protracted battle, in part because Biden's team was just coming in January. And there was a discussion about whether or not they would continue to block the transfer of those tax returns from Treasury to the Ways and Means Committee.

After many delays, we have now learned that it is the Office of Legal Counsel's opinion that Treasury must turn those over. Now, this is significant. There are still questions about whether or not the former president will try to fight this action, but a significant step, because it does give us some indication that this is not going to be delayed much longer.

And, of course, we are getting new statements from the House speaker, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi saying -- quote -- "Today, the Biden administration has delivered a victory for the rule of law, as it respects the public interest by complying with Chairman Neal's request for Donald Trump's tax returns. Access to former President Trump's tax returns is a matter of national security. The American people deserve to know the facts of his troubling conflicts of interest and undermining of our security and democracy as president."

We should also add that this request happened two years ago from House Ways and Means chairman Richard Neal, who argued he needed these returns for a legislative purpose, to look into whether or not the presidential audit program, which automatically audits a president and a vice president's tax returns, whether or not that program was working properly -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK. Thank you very much for that.

So, Paula, what are the details that you're learning about this December 2020 phone call between President Trump and DOJ officials?

PAULA REID, CNN SENIOR LEGAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, these new details come from handwritten notes by then acting Deputy Attorney General Richard Donoghue.

And they reveal how the former president tried to pressure the two top officials at the Justice Department to help him overturn the certified results of the 2020 election. Now, these notes specifically reference a December 27 call between the president and the top two officials who oversaw the Justice Department in the final weeks of his administration.

Now, during this call, according to these notes, the former president pressured these officials to declare the election corrupt and illegal, despite no widespread evidence of fraud.

According to these notes, he told them: "Just say it was corrupt and leave the rest to me and Republican congressmen."

The then-acting attorney general told him, look, that's not the way it works. But, Alisyn, this is just the latest evidence indicating how the former president tried to pressure top Justice officials to help him push these claims of fraud.

Now, these notes are now being used as evidence in multiple congressional investigations.

CAMEROTA: OK, thank you both very much for all of that breaking news reporting.

Let's bring in now CNN senior legal analyst Elie Honig.

OK, Elie, first, let's start with the former president's tax returns. Does this mean the fight is over and that Congress will now see his taxes?

ELIE HONIG, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: It means it's almost over, Alisyn. This is a big step towards Congress getting those tax returns, not quite all the way, but right on the brink.

So, basically, the administration has now reversed position. Under the Trump administration, not surprisingly, the position was, we are not turning over these returns to Congress unless the courts force us to. Today, that's been reversed.

Now the administration's position is, we are turning these returns over to Congress unless the courts step in and force us. So if Donald Trump does nothing here, the returns are going over to Congress. If Donald Trump -- he still does have the ability to challenge us in court, but it's a serious uphill climb at this point. The law is stacked against him and now the administration is against him too.

CAMEROTA: OK. So if Congress gets them, does that mean the public will see them?

HONIG: It could well fairly soon.

We know the Manhattan district attorney already has these tax returns, but that's pursuant to a criminal subpoena. So they have very strict secrecy rules that they have to deal with. So we're not going to see those returns through the Manhattan DA for a very long time, if ever.

However, if Congress gets these returns, they're not subject to the same grand jury or same secrecy rules. So, if that happens, then, yes, we could see them in the public fairly quickly.

[14:25:03] CAMEROTA: OK, let's talk now about this phone call between former President Trump and Jeffrey Rosen and Richard Donoghue, OK, so these DOJ officials, in which -- I mean, I have read through it.

There's just notes and notes of these handwritten notes that Donoghue tough. And it reads like science fiction. I mean, it's just, again, President Trump throwing whatever spaghetti he can at the wall to see what they will bite on, to see what will stick, making stuff up out of whole cloth about his imaginations of election fraud.

And so what's going to happen with the contents of this phone call? What's the DOJ going to do?

HONIG: That's the big question, Alisyn.

Yes, lawyers do like to take notes, as you would think President Trump would have learned. But if you run through sort of what are the various avenues for accountability here, well, depending on timing, you can always impeach because of this. That's not going to happen there. We're not going to have a third impeachment this far out.

But if it happened while the president was in office, and we learned about it then, you could have impeachment. Congress has a big role here. We need to know all of these facts. They need to do serious fact-finding hearings, because this was such an abuse of power. We have to know what happened so we can prevent it in the future.

And, finally, there's potentially a criminal angle here. We don't know whether DOJ is looking at this criminally. They certainly have been circumspect, I would say, to be generous, about criminally investigating President Trump. We do know, however, that the Fulton County district attorney down in Georgia is investigating him.

This kind of phone call goes to intent. Was he trying to basically steal this election? I think this is powerful evidence that he was.

CAMEROTA: One of the interesting things is looking at their responses to it, which occasionally Donoghue records as well.

So you hear President Trump railing against Michigan and Arizona and, I mean, all the things that we have heard. And, occasionally -- I highlighted it -- you see Donoghue writes here: "Possibly true?"

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: I mean, do you make anything of their responses?

HONIG: Yes, look, I think DOJ absolutely did the right thing here, Donoghue and Jeffrey Rosen, who was the acting A.G. at the time.

This is why people like me often say DOJ needs to be independent of the president, because if DOJ, in fact, did whatever the president told it to do, which Bill Barr and other attorneys general have taken that position, then there would have been no safeguard here.

But because DOJ is independent and Rosen and Donoghue stood up for that, we did have a safety barrier in place to prevent sort of the worst-case scenario here.

CAMEROTA: Wouldn't it have helped if they had come out sooner and talked about this?

HONIG: Yes, I think that's a fair question.

Remember, this phone call happened December 27. That's about 10 days before January 6. If they had come out, this could have been a real sort of pulling back the curtain moment, because here you have Donald Trump acknowledging this is just nonsense.

He's asking DOJ, just sort of make it up for me, and I will take it from here. If that had become broadly known publicly, then perhaps it could have taken some of the steam, some of the momentum out of the big lie before January 6. I think that's a fair point.

CAMEROTA: I suppose. I mean, who knows? Who knows if the people who showed up there on January 6 were actually listening to reason at that point, or if they would have just chalked it up to some sort of deep state. Who knows?

HONIG: Yes. Sure.

CAMEROTA: But, still, it's fascinating to read those handwritten notes.

Elie Honig, thank you very much.

HONIG: Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: So, after a shaky start, the U.S. women's soccer team survives the first knockout games at the Olympics, and secures a spot in the semifinals.

So we're live in Tokyo with all of the latest for you next.

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