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Biden Set to Speak on Afghanistan amid Chaotic U.S. Evacuation; Chaos, Desperation as Taliban Take Control of Kabul; Taliban Spokesman to CNN, America Should Trust Us. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 16, 2021 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

JOHN KING, CNN ANCHOR: Have a good afternoon.

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and thanks for being with us. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York.

America's longest war ending in disastrous fashion, and any moment now, President Biden will be arriving back at the White House. In just a few hours, he will give his first remarks on what's happening in Afghanistan.

The scenes unfolding there today are stunning, chaos at the airport in Kabul. You can see that terrified Afghans are so desperate to evacuate, they actually chased after and clung to U.S. military planes as they tried to take off. This as the Taliban completed their takeover of the country at a speed no one in the U.S. government seemed to anticipate.

At the airport's perimeter, sporadic gunfire. Earlier, U.S. forces exchanged fire with a group of armed men, killing two. In Kabul itself, armed Taliban fighters, many of them carrying American weapons, patrol the streets. And now, there are growing fears that the revived Taliban will again turn Afghanistan into a staging ground for terrorism.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is on the ground in Kabul. Nick, set the scene right now. Are you able to move freely? Is the city in lockdown?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: No. It's quite calm, actually. And even as foreigners, we were able to drive around the city quite freely. It's stunning to see Taliban fighters in the city I've only known secured by Afghan soldiers and U.S. troops. The Taliban are walking around holding their guns, sitting on street corners, a lot of them as well.

We moved out towards the airport though where things are tragically completely out of control. Towards the airport, you begin to see the traffic thicken, and then a lot of time there's shots fired in the air to get people to move away because of the vast crowds that have simply been flooding that particular airport for the last few days now. The reason why, well, obviously, the U.S. flights headed out, civilian and air traffic now being stopped here and every wall I could see, there are people trying to climb over or run through the gates.

The Taliban were the ones essentially doing the crowd control right up at the entry point of the airport there. It's startling to see the U.S.'s enemy for 20 years essentially keeping back Afghans in order to let the Americans get on with the job of evacuating their own personnel. It seems though extraordinary to see that airport modern, a symbol of how much money the U.S. has poured into this country in utter chaos, people running on the tarmac, desperately throwing themselves, cargo planes.

And then inside too, you see walkways. I've seen diplomats, contractors walk down now flooded with Afghans just trying to throw themselves onto whatever aircraft they could. Startling and shocking scenes and one, I think, really which explains the speed and chaos in which the 20-year project here has unraveled.

CABRERA: Clearly, people are desperate but do Afghan civilians seem fearful or are they relieved? Have there been any clashes?

WALSH: What's been so remarkable is how quiet Kabul has been. I can't speak for that universally and that we haven't had eyes on every single parts of the city. But for a city of 6 million people, where most of the Afghan security forces were, we have not seen street to street clashes between those security forces and the Taliban. We have reports of them taking off clothes to dress like civilians. We've seen calm, frankly.

There's the occasional crackle of gunfire but, as I said, that could be moving crowds away. We hear a bit of noise often, some now, in fact, near the direction of the airport behind me. But that notion that if the Taliban came in here, there could be street to street fighting lasting in matter months simply hasn't materialized.

And so what now for Kabul is who have possibly been fearing this moment for some time, I think there is a sense of fear. There are the occasional rumors, reports heading that possibly Taliban are looking for former government employees here for those who worked with the Americans. But at the same time too, you simply have to look at the streets and observe the calm, in which the shops are open, a sense of order, frankly. At times, briefly, on the streets, it seemed almost slightly more orderly than it was when the Afghan government police were running the show.

So, that may change, Ana. That's not to say there won't be backsliding human rights issues for women and other people possibly in the years ahead. But what I've been shocked by is the peacefulness, in which just 20-yearlong enemy has simply walked into a capital many thought were impregnable pretty much without a fight. Ana?

CABRERA: We do know though the Taliban freed prisoners as they took over the country. I think a lot of people are concerned about who those people are and what kind of potential threat could they pose to the U.S.

WALSH: Well, the nature of counterterrorism has massively changed since 2001. So, yes, within Bagram Prison, which is now under Taliban control, other facilities run by the Afghan intelligence service that were what they would refer to as high-value targets.

[13:05:04]

So, people accused of having Al Qaeda affiliations, ISIS affiliations, top ranking Taliban warlords.

Taliban have always stressed since they began negotiations with the U.S., they do not want to see the territory of Afghanistan used by foreigners, used by extremists to attack any other country. But that promise was the first point of the peace deal the Taliban signed with the United States. There was a lot of assessments, U.S. assessments, former Afghan now government intelligence assessments suggesting that Al Qaeda are doing quite well here.

Although I had a phone call from a Taliban spokesperson who very forcefully rejected that particular idea, they say this country is for Afghans and why would they encourage a return to the sort of 9/11 attacks that the U.S. put in there after bin Laden used it as a sort of a haven to attack the United States? We'll have to see in the years ahead precisely what is happening here, precisely what sort of society the Taliban run.

There had been indications today that they want to possibly broaden the kind of government we're seeing here. Abdullah Abdualla, Hamid Karzai, chief executive of the former government and a former president, have released a message essentially saying that they're in talks. There's a possibility of some kind of compromise going forward. Because that will, I think, make police who were associated with the previous governments calmer to some degree. We just don't know quite how this will evolve in the months ahead, but there appears to be a part of the Taliban immediately very keen to burnish their international image. Ana?

CABRERA: Okay. Nick Paton Walsh. Thank you for your excellent reporting in Kabul.

Let's bring in now former NATO Supreme Allied Commander, CNN Military Analyst General Wesley Clark. General, thanks for spending time with us.

We knew this withdrawal was coming. We've known for months. We knew before Joe Biden entered office. So when it was finally implemented, why did it go haywire? What could have been done differently?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, I think it started many years ago with the corruption from the U.S. influence in there. We were unable to control corruption. And the corruption undercut all the efforts at governance in there. Money was changing hands and it was the same old Afghan game, this time with the Americans rather than the Russians. And we were never able to really establish the kind of civic culture that was required here. And then starting in 2014, we withdraw from combat operations.

Now, one country that hasn't been mentioned is Pakistan. And yet, Pakistan is the country that maintained and supported and, to some extent, directed the Taliban for many, many years. I wonder why it's not being mentioned right now.

I wonder why Pakistan has sort of ducked its head because this is a tremendous triumph for Pakistan's intelligence services. This means they can rely on driving the Indian influence out of Afghanistan and rely on Afghanistan as a secure rear (ph) area. So, there's a strategic play here.

As we went forward from 2014 on, we didn't have the same level of combat operations. And then once President Trump started peace talk without involving the Afghan government, that was the end. That meant they weren't really our allies. And from that moment on, men in the field began to change sides. They surrendered peacefully.

They surrendered quietly. They gave weapons and this rolling process started well before President Biden became president. And when he became president, I don't think he really had any alternative. Put 100,000 troops in, fight your way back in, try to change things, sure, but is that our vital national interest at this point?

So, Ana, when we look at this, I think the ending was -- is really tragic. It's horrible to see the humanitarian chaos there and the fear, and, naturally, we wish we could do something to alleviate it. And I hope the presence of our troops will provide some iota of stability there. I hope we will be able to get out the Afghans who worked with us that we have a sense of obligation toward. But we have to understand that we have other competing national interests.

We have to try to avoid this sort of circular firing squad that's starting in right now, pointing fingers at everybody, trying to make this a political issue in the United States. The truth is all administrations made errors in judgment. They had bad policies. There was bad reporting. There's plenty of blame to go around for everybody.

CABRERA: Sure.

CLARK: What we have to do now is pick up the pieces and move forward with America's national interests doing the best we can to alleviate the suffering and the fear of those who relied on us in Afghanistan.

CABRERA: But there's still the question of what could have been done differently, how we can understand what errors may have occurred here or why the situation resulted in this outcome after so many years of U.S. military training and all the money and the blood that was shed in order to try to create a more stable country, to create a more free society for the Afghan people, and yet, the Afghan forces, the people, all just folded in a matter of days to the Taliban.

[13:10:29]

And you talk about how you could see this coming over the course of years, well before President Biden took office. Do you think the generals and the intelligence community saw it coming? Did they just get it wrong or did they just not give warning to what was the reality?

CLARK: I think they didn't realize how bad it really was at the bottom. But there were plenty of indicators along the way. There were indicators that the government from the top didn't have the loyalty of the regional governors and province leaders. There were indicators that the army was siphoning off funds that soldiers weren't being paid, that policemen weren't being paid. And then from top to bottom, there was a sense of everybody, every man for himself. Get ready.

I mean, this has happened before in Afghanistan. Remember how quickly they switched sides when we put our special forces and our airstrikes in there in 2001. And before that, there was another civil war, and before that, there was the fight against the Soviet domination.

So these people in Afghanistan have learned to survive. Things happen very quickly there with the illusion of -- when they had the image of the changing of power. And so you had at the very top a government that wasn't resolute. It wasn't connected to its armed forces. It wasn't connected to its populous in a strong way. These are people just trying to survive at the bottom. Who will fight for a regime that doesn't care anything about them?

CABRERA: General Wesley Clark, thank you. Thank you so much for your insights, your analysis. I want to call our attention to the screen right now as we have live pictures of President Biden arriving back in Washington D.C. He was at Camp David over the weekend. He's returning to the White House this afternoon and will be addressing the American public in a matter of just a couple hours or so from now to speak specifically about what is unfolded in the last couple days in Afghanistan, the impact it could have on the United States.

I want to bring in our Chief National Affairs Correspondent Jeff Zeleny and CNN Chief White House Correspondent Kaitlan Collins.

And let me start with you, Kaitlan. What do we expect to hear from the president when he speaks to the American people around 3:45 is when it's scheduled to happen today?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Ana, we should note that the White House did just tell that this morning, before President Biden left Camp David, to come back here to Washington to make these remarks, his first remarks, on Afghanistan since last Tuesday. They say he was briefed by his national security team, including Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin and Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Milley this morning on what is happening at the airport.

We have seen the images of some of the Afghan nationals clinging to the tires of U.S. planes, trying to get out of there. Of course, several of them have fallen to their death, really a tragic situation unfolding. And the White House says President Biden is aware of what's been happening on the ground there.

They say he was also briefed on the ongoing efforts to safely evacuate citizens, U.S. embassy personnel and local staff, including, of course, the Afghan nationals who served alongside U.S. forces and they say other vulnerable Afghans as well. That's been a big question about maybe those who would not qualify for a visa but are equally targeted by the Taliban. What happens to them once all the U.S. forces and the U.S. diplomatic personnel are out of there once they have secured the airport, given, of course, what's happened this morning.

And so those are big questions that are going to be facing President Biden when he does address reporters. Because the situation has changed dramatically since the last time we heard from him. And last Tuesday, we should remind people that President Biden was voicing confidence in the Afghan security forces, talking about the training and equipping that they've had from the U.S., and also talking about how it is their time to fight. It is their fight to fight, as given what's been going on. And, clearly, that has been something that did not happen since the Taliban takeover.

So, we'll see if President Biden makes any remarks here as he gets off Marine One. I don't think it's likely, but, of course, it's up to the president whether or not he wants to weigh in.

CABRERA: We see him right now. Now, he is walking across the lawn speaking to service members there to greet him, and he's look at the media. He just waved to the cameras but does not appear to be approaching them to make remarks.

As we await what he will say this afternoon, Jeff, I want to remind you the president recently expressed confidence in the ability of the Afghanis security forces to hold off the Taliban.

[13:15:06]

Let's just revisit that for a moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: You have the Afghan troops have 300,000 well-equipped, as well as equipped, as any army in the world and an Air Force against something like 75,000 Taliban. It is not inevitable.

There's going to be no circumstances where you're going to see people being lifted off the roof of an embassy of the United States from Afghanistan. It is not at all comfortable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: We've all seen the images in recent days of the helicopters helping to evacuate Americans. Do you expect the president to accept responsibility that his earlier assessment, what he told the American people previously, was wrong, Jeff?

JEFF ZELENY, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT: Ana, I do not expect him to say his overall decision was wrong. We know he believes this in his core, that he believes America's longest war should come to an end. But how and when it came to an end, that is the central question here. We will see if he acknowledges being wrong about this. But if he doesn't, that's not going to change the facts on the ground. He was wrong about this. So, certainly, there's going to be plenty of time to talk about the differences in the different administrations, the Trump administration, no doubt.

Those negotiations, with the Taliban led to this. But he is the commander in chief. And right now, the urgent concern, the urgent assignment on his desk is getting the American personnel out as well as the Afghans who helped the U.S. government for years. So if he acknowledges his mistake or not, it is still a mistake. So now, it's Biden versus the Biden.

So I do expect him to give a survey of the situation. As Kaitlan was saying, He's been briefed this morning about the situation at the airport. So this is something that's underway right now at this moment. In terms of next steps, how much he was wrong or not, we will see. But, overall, he believes his policy was right. So for all of the finger-pointing, the reality is, a few weeks ago, no one in Washington was talking about Afghanistan.

It's long-been a forgotten subject matter, which is perhaps one of the reasons that has led to this right now. There should have been a closer inspection in Congress of all of this. Perhaps this could have been foreseen. But for now, at least, he'll talk about the urgent situation there. And I cannot imagine him not reconciling his own mistakes here over the last several weeks.

CABRERA: Jeff Zeleny and Kaitlan Collins, thank you both.

The Taliban say they want peace, but exactly who are the Taliban and what does their takeover really mean for the Afghan people, especially women?

Plus, an approaching storm after a deadly earthquake in the midst of a political crisis. CNN is live in Haiti as that country suffers through multiple disasters.

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[13:20:00]

CABRERA: America should trust us. That is the message coming directly from the Taliban today. But as they promise peace, experts are sounding the alarm. Amnesty International's secretary general saying this, thousands of Afghans at serious risk of Taliban reprisals from academics and journalists who activists and women, human rights defenders are in danger of being abandoned to a deeply uncertain future.

And with us now is Ahmed Rashid, journalist and author of several books, including, Taliban, Story of the Afghan Warlords.

Ahmed, the Taliban say they're going to be a more inclusive society and government. They say women will have an education, that journalists can continue their work. Do you have reason to believe them?

AHMED RASHID, AUTHOR, TALIBAN, THE STORY OF THE AFGHAN WARLORDS: Well, I think it's very difficult to believe them because of their past record. And I think that's part of the problem related to the panic we've seen in Kabul in the last few days. And, you know, underestimating them has always been something quite wrong.

I think the real issue with the Taliban is they should be given the chance. Let's see what government comes out. Will it be a broad-based government and include non-Taliban people, maybe a woman or two? Or is it going to be a purely Taliban government, which is something that certainly their militant commanders want. They don't want to be messing around with non-Taliban, people who don't believe in the ideology as they want a hard line government based on Islamic law and they don't need any allies. That's what some of the feeling is.

But I think (INAUDIBLE) Taliban, some of those who have been around and has especially touring the region, the countries in their region, they will probably be wanting to make a more inclusive government.

CABRERA: If we could just take a step back for a second, how would you describe the Taliban to someone who is less familiar? Who are they?

RASHID: Well, they're a very conservative creation at war, basically. They emerged as fighters and wanting peace and security in Afghanistan. But during the civil war, which ripped the country apart, they're right out of the Soviet withdrawal. And they were do-gooders at one point in their history. They disarmed the population.

[13:25:00]

They were wanting to bring peace and security. And then the change happened just before they went into Kabul in '96, which is that they suddenly came up with this area that they wanted to rule Afghanistan. And so they became one more warlord faction with all the other warlords, and who are all battling the power in Kabul.

And that, I think, has been the real tragedy. They have kept that image of wanting peace and security, and in which they have (INAUDIBLE) the other Taliban or the other warlords that we want to bring our elders in to decide what kind of government we should have. We do not want to govern ourselves.

But they broke with that. And they've governed themselves and governed the country with horrendous implications as to how it ended with 9/11 and -- but they were able to rebuild themselves with the help of some regional powers, and there we have the situation as it is today.

CABRERA: And the fact that this takeover in Kabul was so swift with no large clashes on the street, is it possible that the Taliban might actually have the Afghan people on their side?

RASHI: No, I really don't think so. I think they have some support in the rural areas. But they don't have support in the other areas. And, remember, the last 20 years there's a whole generation of several generations of Afghans who become educated, held down jobs, traveled abroad and tasted a new life. They certainly do not support the Taliban.

The other issue is how is the Taliban going to govern? The last time they governed, they didn't have any technical people, bureaucrats, people who could run a government. Right now, I'm not seeing any more enlightened younger generation Taliban come out and make speeches and at least aim to become more modern as it were.

The lack of modernity is what the critical issue is for the Taliban, and they haven't really changed, unfortunately, because I think they are paying lip service to education, all the women in education, and even holding down jobs, but this is going to vary from district to district. Many Taliban commanders or governors of provinces will not agree with anything that the center puts out.

CABRERA: Ahmed Rashid, thank you for being with us. I appreciate your expertise on all of this.

Tragedy about to strike again nearly, 1,300 people are already dead in Haiti after a devastating earthquake. And now, the nation is bracing for flooding and mud slides as a major storm approaches. We go there live.

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