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Biden Administration Defends Afghanistan Withdrawal. Aired 3- 3:30p ET

Aired August 17, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK ESPER, FORMER U.S. DEFENSE SECRETARY: What we could do about the -- about the credibility of the agreement, about our trust in it, and about what would happen or not happen as we looked ahead.

So, I think we had a very sober assessment of the situation. We -- again, I was convinced that a conditioned-based process was the way forward and also believed, at the same time, that a political solution was the only way ahead, which is why I supported the agreement we set forth.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Top of the hour. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

The Biden administration again defending the decision to withdraw troops from Afghanistan. National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said last hour that President Biden takes full responsibility, but he also subtly placed blame on the actions of his predecessor.

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JAKE SULLIVAN, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: What has unfolded over the past month has proven decisively that it would have taken a significant American troop presence, multiple times greater than what President Biden was handed, to stop a Taliban onslaught.

And we would have taken casualties.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Let's talk about the evacuation.

Sullivan says they're ongoing. And the U.S. deployed more C-17 military planes to transport almost 800 people overnight, including 165 Americans, none on the flight that you're seeing the picture of there.

Pentagon spokesman John Kirby estimates there are 5,000 to 10,000 Americans still in the region. The Pentagon also says they're communicating with the Taliban to keep these evacuations go.

CAMEROTA: And this picture that we're showing is incredible, seeing people packed on to this, we think, C-17 plane. It's incredible. We don't know completely the backstory, but we are going to get to that. Our reporter has found out some more information about what was going on here in this incredible picture.

CNN chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins was in that briefing.

So, Kaitlan, what did we learn?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, I think one of the biggest things we have learned is apparently the United States has secured the assurances of the Taliban to commit to safe passage of civilians as they are making their way to that airport in Kabul to board planes, hopefully not as packed as the one you just saw there, given that was incredibly unusual how many people were packed on that C-17, but in order to facilitate this withdrawal and this evacuation that is under way.

And, to be clear, that is certainly the primary goal of the administration right now, which is making sure that they can get everyone who is still there and needs to get out can get out safely. And a big concern has been about people who are not at the airport as we speak, the people who still have to make their way to the airport, given the Taliban is in control.

And so that is one thing Jake Sullivan said. They said they intend to hold the Taliban to that commitment. Of course, it is the Taliban. So whether or not that holds remains to be seen, because, of course, back in July, President Biden said he does not trust the Taliban.

So that is certainly a big factor as to what is going on. But I think there were also a lot of questions about what happened and what led the United States to having to force -- or having to surge -- excuse me -- 6,000 troops to the area to conduct this evacuation.

And Jake Sullivan, the national security adviser, said that he takes responsibility, that President Biden takes responsibility, the defense secretary the intelligence arms, of all the decisions that the U.S. has made when it comes to Afghanistan, though he did say that there are other factors on the ground there to blame.

Part of that was former President Trump's agreement with the Taliban about removing U.S. forces. They also continued what you heard President Biden say yesterday when it comes to a lack of willingness to fight from the Afghan security forces.

So that has been a big factor of this as well. And Jake Sullivan says they are going to conduct an assessment of where the weak spots were in the U.S.' response here, in the U.S.' role, essentially, in how this evacuation and this drawdown went forward.

And one big question I think that we have also had is what President Biden is doing behind the scenes when he's at Camp David, because that is where he returned after giving that speech here at the White House. And he did get a briefing from his team this morning.

But, notably, Jake Sullivan did tell us the President Biden has not spoken to any other world leaders.

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COLLINS: Has the president spoken to any other world leaders since Kabul fell to the Taliban?

SULLIVAN: Sorry. I was looking at the wrong person.

He has not yet spoken with any other world leaders. Myself, Secretary Blinken, several other senior members of the team have been engaged on a regular basis with foreign counterparts. And we intend to do so in the coming days.

Right now, the main issue is an operational issue. It's about how we coordinate with them to help them get their people out. And we are operating through logistical channels and policy channels to try to make that happen.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: So, the White House saying that they are focused on the mission that's at hand right now, getting people out of there, but it is notable President Biden hasn't spoken to any of his allies since Kabul fell on Sunday.

We have seen some communications between other European leaders, including the German chancellor, the French president speaking to each other about, of course, what is happening and making sure everyone safely gets out of Kabul.

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BLACKWELL: Kaitlan Collins for us there at the White House.

We do know that the head of NATO echoed a lot of the president's defense of the pullout of Afghanistan. He also said that the speed of the country's collapse was a surprise.

CAMEROTA: But he could not provide answers when one Afghan journalist pressed him multiple times about the future of Afghan women.

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QUESTION: There is thousands of women already don't know for the future what is going on and what should have informed them.

And they are always asking, what does it mean 20 years, NATO, with all the international communities inside in Afghanistan, and then we are going back again 20 years after we were on that place.

I would like to ask, how that possible? And I would like to ask, a woman, please don't recognize the emirate Islamic Taliban without any condition, like the agreement which is signed between Taliban and the government of Trump, and then only to is following that. Please, don't recognize the Taliban don't put us again the same situation.

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CAMEROTA: OK. We have learned that that journalist you just heard reportedly fled Afghanistan after the Taliban threatened her life.

Now a spokesman for the Taliban claims they do not want to victimize women. He says that women's standing in society would be guaranteed, but there was this caveat -- quote -- "within the framework of Islamic Sharia, taking into consideration national and Afghan values, in order to set the conditions for work and education and setting the conditions for the presence of all human sectors."

CNN senior international correspondent Sam Kiley joins us live.

Sam, that seems like too big of a caveat for this to be some sort of new improved Taliban.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, he was very keen to try to get across that the Taliban had learned from the mistakes of the past, that it had reached a greater level of maturity.

But time and again, as you rightly point out there, Alisyn, he referred to everything being within the context of Sharia law, so that, for example, the rights of journalists to continue to prosecute their trade would be allowed under Sharia law, so long as they were respecting cultural norms.

This kept coming back. But they were trying to drive home a much moderated image, if not a reality. But one of the key political announcements that they have reiterated at this very important first press conference that they have conducted in Kabul since they were driven from power was this, that they were going to give a blanket amnesty to all government officials that have fought them in the past.

This is what he said:

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ZABIHULLAH MUJAHID, TALIBAN SPOKESMAN: We want Afghanistan not to be the battlefield. So, today, that fighting is over.

So, the honoroble (INAUDIBLE) decree, to whoever was against -- our opposition, they all have been given blanket amnesty.

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KILEY: Now, the key about blanket amnesty is that they recognize that large elements of the Afghan National Army, the other security forces, and indeed warlords across the nation folded up in the face of the Taliban advance, not necessarily because they supported the Taliban, but they didn't want to die fighting them.

And, as a consequence, they're going to have to realize that they have got to govern, not rule, perhaps, particularly if they want to get international recognition and that critical international aid, as well as international trade. They cannot go back to being isolated as they were in the past.

So this press conference and other statements, particularly to CNN, Alisyn, Victor, have all been in this terms of the public relations. The truth, though, will emerge in the coming days.

CAMEROTA: Thank you for all that reporting, Sam Kiley.

BLACKWELL: With me now, Ambassador Richard Haass. He's a veteran diplomat and the president of the Council on Foreign Relations. He's also the author of "The World: A Brief Introduction."

Mr. Ambassador, thank you for your time.

Let me start here with some of these promises coming from the Taliban. The president says that he doesn't trust the Taliban. We heard from Jake Sullivan that these promises of being a reformed Taliban now are not trusted.

However, on the question of getting Americans to the airport, they say, well, the Taliban has confirmed that there will be safe passage. Why have confidence in that? And do you have confidence in that?

RICHARD HAASS, PRESIDENT, COUNCIL ON FOREIGN RELATIONS: Look, I don't have confidence in anything the Taliban commit to.

They let out of jail already al Qaeda people. So I think every step of, they have got to -- it's got to be made clear to them what's expected. And we will have to see how they perform. And then we will also have to think then how we respond.

[15:10:08]

But there's questions again of their relationship with terrorists, how they deal with people trying to leave the country. And then, in the longer term, there's all the questions you have all been talking about, which is essentially how they rule their country. What is their definition now of Afghan society? And is there a Taliban 2.0 that in any way is different from the original?

BLACKWELL: Looking forward, Jake Sullivan said that, just as the U.S. has in other countries, named Yemen specifically, it can keep an eye on counterterror, it has this over-the-horizon strategy that does not require a permanent presence, does not require fighting a war.

Is Afghanistan applicable to that model? And even, as Yemen, the best example, what do you think about what potentially was lost in counterterror efforts?

HAASS: Look, President Biden's own CIA chief, Bill Burns, said that physical presence on the ground in Afghanistan is an important factor in our ability to monitor and ultimately deal with terrorists.

So can we do some things -- quote, unquote -- "offshore" from a distant position? Sure. But at the moment, we don't have any sort of regular access to the neighboring countries. So our ability to cope or contend with terrorism areas is significantly diminished. But I have got to say, the bigger factor is, do the Taliban invite

people back, and do the Taliban, even if they don't do that, do they have the capacity and the commitment to police Afghan terrorism?, so groups like al Qaeda and the rest don't come back? And we will just have to see.

But we shouldn't kid ourselves. Our ability to contend with terrorism is diminished.

BLACKWELL: And what then are the options for the U.S.

Sullivan talked about potential sanctions. I don't know if sanctions or economic controls are the best option. What do you think the U.S. can do, short of going back in?

HAASS: Well, sanctions have clear limits as a policy tool, particularly with the kind of people that the Taliban have historically been.

The choice isn't -- quote, unquote -- "getting back in." I think the era of American physical presence in Afghanistan is probably over. Could we do discrete attacks, using missiles, aircraft, drones, even Special Forces on occasion? Yes, I think we're looking at something much more tactical than any reentry into Afghanistan.

BLACKWELL: You wrote about in your piece for "The L.A. Times" the nightmare scenario that the Taliban then expands into Pakistan.

And discuss that a bit more of what potentially is ahead. And is that plausible in the short term?

HAASS: Yes, it's something that would be somewhere between ironic and frightening.

Pakistan provided a physical sanctuary to the Taliban for decades. And that's one of the principal reasons the Taliban has come back the way they the way they have. But what you now have is a Taliban that is not necessarily content with regaining control over Afghanistan.

There's Taliban that are also active in Pakistan, far more radical. They now also have much more equipment, thanks to what -- the American-supplied equipment. They are on something of a role.

So I just simply pointed out as a possibility that, once the Taliban feel they reestablished control over Afghanistan, they could train their sights on Pakistan. And, ultimately, Pakistan is a much bigger prize. It's got five times the population. It's got much larger territory, and, obviously, it's got nuclear weapons.

So this is something we have got to be worried about. And the same Pakistanis who now are toasting what the Taliban have done may come to rue it.

BLACKWELL: Ambassador Richard Haass, thank you, sir, for the insight.

HAASS: Thank you. CAMEROTA: Afghans' sense of desperation captured in this one

photograph, hundreds of people crowded on the floor of a cargo plane to flee the Taliban.

And we have uncovered new details behind this photograph.

BLACKWELL: And a "National Geographic" photographer escapes Afghanistan, but is now stranded in Qatar. We will talk to her next.

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[15:18:58]

CAMEROTA: Look at this incredible photo. It shows hundreds of Afghan people packed into a U.S. cargo plane leaving Afghanistan.

We have learned that this plane was carrying about 640 men, women and children. And they flew from Kabul to Qatar on Sunday.

BLACKWELL: CNN's Oren Liebermann is live at the Pentagon.

Oren, I understand that you're getting some new details about how the crew made the flight decision here. What have you learned?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: First, let's go back to Sunday night, the decision and the situation on the airport.

At that point, the airport had not been secured. There were thousands of Afghan Syrian that made it a difficult situation, not only obviously boarding on that flight and cramming on that flight, that stunning photo that shows you the desperation and the panic of those civilians trying to flee the country, but also those outside who made it an unstable situation.

And it's in that situation that a defense official says the crew of that C-17 made the decision to go, 640 people on board. The plane took off, that picture seen by everybody who's been watching not only our coverage, but pretty much all the coverage out there, because that's how powerful that photo is of, again, that desperation, that panic to get out of the country and perhaps even that relief on their faces that they are on a flight out of the country.

[15:20:18]

But 640 people certainly not the number expected to be on the other C- 17s coming out of there, and it appears that will be the main aircraft used in evacuation efforts.

The number, National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan said a short time ago, probably closer to about 300 on a flight. But that's only once this process of getting everyone out of there really gets up and running and ramps up.

The commander of U.S. Central Command, General McKenzie, was just in Kabul looking at the area, watching those efforts to get them ramped up. He says the airport is secure, which is a good sign for civilians and military aircraft trying to get in and out, but that that effort to evacuate everybody still building up, not at the numbers we're looking for yet, which is thousands a day.

CAMEROTA: Oren, I can't stop looking at that photograph. It's just -- it just tells such a story, I mean, seeing everybody packed in there, but just seeming relieved with babies on their laps and feeding children.

And so this is a different plane, right, than the one we saw people chasing on the tarmac and trying to grab on to?

LIEBERMANN: Correct.

So, the flight of this powerful, powerful picture was Sunday night. That flight, the flight of the airport -- or the aircraft departing with people running next to it was the following morning. So that was on Monday morning. And that, too, that video has also, of course, gone viral, again, because it shows you how desperate people are to get on anything and any way out of the country.

It is on that flight, according to a defense official, that human remains were found in the wheel well after the plane had departed. There was a problem, an indication that there was an issue with landing gear. And we now, of course, know the tragic reason for that. Somebody tried to or got caught in the landing gear as the wheels came up, human remains found in the wheel well of that flight.

Again, all of this speaks to how desperate and how panicked people are as they try to find some way out of the country as the U.S. and others try to ramp up their efforts to get flights in and out of Kabul International Airport, which is truly the international gateway right now for so many.

BLACKWELL: Certainly does.

Oren Liebermann there at the Pentagon for us, thank you.

CAMEROTA: My next guest is a "National Geographic" photographer who made it out of Kabul on Sunday night. This is the last photo she took before she left the city.

Kiana Hayeri is an Iranian Canadian, but she's been chronicling life in Afghanistan since 2013 and living there since 2014.

Kiana joins me now from Doha, Qatar.

Kiana, thank you very much. I know that you have had an exhausting 48 hours. Tell us about how you got out.

KIANA HAYERI, "NATIONAL GEOGRAPHIC": Thank you.

I was actually on assignment that day, started working at 4:00 a.m., had a series of things. And as they was going by, it was getting more and more intense on the street. And I could tell around 11:00 something was not really right. And we were hearing reports from here and there that Taliban has

entered the city from the west, from the southwest. And, eventually, by, say, 11:55 is the -- is that photo, when I took the last photo, and I went home, and I received the phone call. So, I also work for "The New York Times." And I got a phone call from our head of security that I only have half-an-hour to pack and go to the airport.

And there was a debate. It's been a few days up -- leading up to that day. We knew Taliban was coming. Like, it was no secret. The question was whether we stay or go. And all things considered, I decided to, as I would like to say, to take a leave, and then come back when things are a little bit more stable.

CAMEROTA: Tell us what we're seeing in that photo. That photo that you snapped at 11:55 that you're -- the last photo that you took in Kabul, what are we seeing in there?

HAYERI: This is right in front of the (INAUDIBLE) bank in (INAUDIBLE) that is (INAUDIBLE) intersection, which is the start of the Green Zone.

So, going forward after that square is the Green Zone. It's also where a very, very, very, very strong explosion took place in May 30 or 31 of 2016. So, it's the same spot.

And as I was walking away from the bank, which was crowded with like hundreds of people trying to crawl into the bank or waiting to get money, a lot of traffic. I just -- as I was crossing the road to get into my car, I just turned around.

I had no idea this was going to be my last frame. I turned around and snapped the photo to see -- to capture the traffic.

CAMEROTA: You're currently at a military base in Doha. What's the plan? Where will you go? Your home is Kabul.

HAYERI: Yes.

I have kind of like spent the past 10, 11 years being mentally nomad. And I think, in the past three years, it was really that -- when I decided, like, mentally I said Kabul is home.

[15:25:04]

And I don't know. We're kind of working with our colleagues to get our other colleagues back in Kabul out of Afghanistan as soon as possible. Once they're out, I think I will have the headspace to decide what I'm going to do next.

CAMEROTA: You have said that you're experiencing sadness today, and anger and guilt. Why? I mean, why those emotions, rather than relief?

HAYERI: Why would I feel relief?

CAMEROTA: Because you survived? You made it out?

HAYERI: What about all those people that I left behind? Well, there's people that I called my family, my friends, my colleagues?

I knew from day one many -- all these years, many, many times, my friends -- or not friends, actually, really, often like colleagues or strangers, they always like said, oh, you have a passport. When the time arrives, you're going to leave.

And I always and always and always assured them, listen, I have been here for six, seven years. I have stayed and I chose to stay, right? And the fact that I was forced to be like this, it breaks my heart. And the fact that I couldn't do anything, I couldn't put everyone in my bag and take them out gives me a lot of guilt.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I hear you. I understand that. I mean, I know that you work with a fixer, which is what we say in our business, in the press business, of somebody who helps you and may translate and may drive.

Do you know the status of your fixer and where he is?

HAYERI: I mean, I have worked with many, many fixers. We have been trying to organize flights, get them out.

A few of them, three of them have made it out with their families. I have plenty of people left behind, stranded in Kabul. We had over 100 people stranded in that crowd inside the international airport.

So, yes, I unfortunately have a lot of people who are still there.

CAMEROTA: And do they know what the plan is?

HAYERI: I don't -- I mean, we're trying. We're trying. We're pulling strings. We're trying every valley that we find, every path that we can get onto to see what we can do. I don't think it's known.

CAMEROTA: What's the situation in Qatar, where you are, in Doha? How many people are there?

HAYERI: I have no idea. To be honest, I mean, since I arrived here, I have rarely left my room. I have been filing assignments, working to get people out, guiding people, connecting them with the right people.

So I rarely get out, maybe to pick up water, use the bathroom or maybe something. So, one thing I noticed, though, on Sunday night, when we arrived, I think we were among one of the first ones who arrived. And then, today, the camp is packed, to the point that I think they're taking some people directly to Kuwait because there's no more space here.

CAMEROTA: How many -- when you say packed, I mean, how -- give us a sense of how many people.

HAYERI: I have no idea. Sorry. I haven't been out.

(LAUGHTER)

CAMEROTA: How many? I mean, how -- I mean, I'm sorry.

Who are they? What nationality?

HAYERI: Sadly, they're mostly contractors. They're all foreigners.

I mean, there are some Afghans coming, very few. Once in a while, you see one Afghan family arriving. They are all foreigners. And -- and I also have to say there is such a huge gap between what's happening on this camp, what was happening at -- on the military side of the airport in Kabul, and what was actually happening on the streets of Kabul.

The gap -- the gap is the one -- the thing that was giving me a lot of anger.

CAMEROTA: And so tell me more about that, the gap between -- what part is making you most angry?

HAYERI: I mean, I started having little chitchats with people, and mostly contractors or soldiers.

And I -- at some point, I stopped, because it was just getting me angry, angry. There was a gentleman in Kabul Airport, the military said, who came to pick me up. And we're chatting up. I asked them, how long have you been here? Have you done -- had a tour?

And I asked him -- yes, he had, I think, once or twice. And I asked him how he felt about leaving. And his answer, he was like -- he was -- I'm not going to repeat what he says. This is not appropriate. But he was very excited that he was leaving.

And that -- that, I find wrong. I mean, these guys haven't even stepped on the Afghan soil. They have always been inside the bases. They have never connected with people. So, how could they make any judgment of how Afghanistan is or how -- like, how excited they are to be leaving Afghanistan?

CAMEROTA: When you saw what was happening, when you knew that the U.S. soldiers were going to be withdrawing this month, how did you think it would unfold?

HAYERI: Similarly, except the timeline. I just didn't expect the timeline to be like this.