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Fear And Uncertainty Grip Afghanistan As Taliban Take Control; U.S. President On Afghanistan: "The Buck Stops With Me"; U.S. President: Many Missteps In Our Mission In Afghanistan; E.U. Foreign Ministers To Hold Emergency Meeting. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired August 17, 2021 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
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[02:00:11]
ROBYN CURNOW, CNN ANCHOR (on camera): Welcome to CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Robyn Curnow. Coming up.
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JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm president of the United States of America, and the buck stops with me.
CURNOW (voice-over): Joe Biden tries to explain the chaotic withdrawal of U.S. troops from Afghanistan, appoints plenty of fingers at others. The definition of desperation, people trying to scramble onto a plane ready to do anything to get away from Taliban rule.
And these are the lucky ones who were evacuated. So after 20 years, America's longest war was it worth it? We'll ask a U.S. veteran who did two tours of Afghanistan.
ANNOUNCER: Live from CNN Center. This is CNN NEWSROOM WITH ROBYN CURNOW.
CURNOW (on camera): This hour. So, the final chapter of America's war in Afghanistan looks to be a desperate race for survival at the Kabul -- at the Kabul airport.
CURNOW (voice-over): As Taliban tighten their grip on the capital, thousands of people will do nearly anything to escape. Civil and military aircraft have been mobbed with some people even grabbing onto a moving U.S. plane as you can see here.
American troops have been trying to secure the airport and sometimes violently. The Pentagon says its forces killed two armed men who shot them on Monday.
Getting Americans onto flights has been a priority. But the U.S. has also been able to get Afghans out.
Now, this image comes from Defense One, it's a packed cargo plane typically used for U.S. troops in gear. Defense One says it wasn't supposed to take in so many people, but panicked Afghans cleared to leave Kabul airport kept on piling in.
Instead of kicking them out, the crew went wheels up. The flight left for Qatar with more than 600 people on board.
CURNOW (on camera): And as the chaos in Kabul unfolds, uncertainty is certainly gripping Afghanistan. The rapid collapse of the capital and the Afghan government, now has many fearing what comes next?
Well, Clarissa Ward was on the streets of Kabul, and this is certainly her tory.
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CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): As soon as we leave our compound, it's clear who is now in charge. Taliban fighters have flooded the capital. Smiling and victorious, they took the city of 6 million people in a matter of hours, barely firing a shot.
WARD (on camera): This is a site I honestly thought I would never see scores of Taliban fighters. And just behind us, the U.S. Embassy compound.
WARD (voice-over): Some carry American weapons. They tell us they are here to maintain law and order.
Everything is under control. Everything will be fine, the commander says. Nobody should worry.
What's your message to America right now?
America already spent enough time in Afghanistan. They need to leave, he tells us. They already lost lots of lives and lots of money.
People come up to them to pose for photographs.
WARD (on camera): They're just chanting death to America, but they seem friendly, at the same time, it's utterly bizarre.
Almost everywhere we go, it seems the Taliban want to talk.
A lot of people are very frightened that you might engage in revenge attacks against security forces.
WARD (voice-over): Since yesterday, we've proved that nothing will happen, and we give assurance to everyone that they will be safe. Maoli Murtaza (PH) tells us. And we follow our leaders. Once we make a promise, we stick to it.
Maintaining law and order is top of that list of promises. At the presidential palace, the Taliban are now guarding the gate. They say they're here to fill the vacuum left when the government fled.
But the welcoming spirit only extends so far, and my presence soon creates tension.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It is because of you.
WARD (on camera): They've just told me to stand to the side because I'm a woman.
WARD (voice-over): The Taliban have yet to implement their draconian version of Islamic law, but many are already preparing for it.
WARD (on camera): You can see this beauty salon and many others have actually painted over images on their storefronts of uncovered women.
WARD (voice-over): Taliban commander Assad Massoud Khistani says Islamic rule will be implemented gradually.
WARD (on camera): How will you protect women? Because many women are afraid they will not be allowed to go to school, they will not be allowed to work
ASSAD MASSOUD KHISTANI, TALIBAN COMMANDER: I thought the female, the woman can continue their life. And we will not say anything for them. They can go to the school, they can continue their education, but with Islamic hijab.
[02:05:07]
WARD (on camera): So, like I'm wearing?
KHISTANI: Not like you, but covering their faces.
WARD: Cover the face.
KHISTANI: Yes, yes.
WARD: So you mean, niqab?
KHISTANI: Niqab.
WARD: Why did they have to cover their face?
KHISTANI: Because it is in our Islam.
WARD: Is it in Islam, though, that you have to wear niqab?
KHISTANI: Of course -- of course. Of course, it is in Islam.
WARD (voice-over): Most ordinary Afghans we meet are in a state of shock, struggling to process the last 24 hours.
(INAUDIBLE) his father was in the Afghan army and was killed this summer. Now, he doesn't know what to do.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yesterday. I have lost everything. Like I don't feel secure in here.
WARD (on camera): You are afraid? You're afraid?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, I'm afraid because I lost my dad. I lost my mom, in a Logar Province, like two months ago.
WARD: I'm sorry to hear that.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Just I am with my little sister. We are living at home. That's why I'm afraid from everything. It's a big problem. This is a big problem for us.
WARD (voice-over): It's a feeling shared by so many.
Walking along one has a sense that the real story may be the people who are not on the streets. Those too afraid to leave their homes, waiting to see what tomorrow will bring.
Clarissa Ward, CNN, Kabul.
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CURNOW: Well, the Taliban takeover is a major blow to the Biden administration, Joe Biden left his presidential retreat to return to Washington on Monday. For his first address to the American people since Kabul's collapse. President Biden acknowledged mistakes but also pointed some fingers.
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BIDEN: I stand squarely behind my decision. After 20 years, I've learned the hard way that there was never a good time to withdraw U.S. forces. That's why we're still there. We were clear eyed about the risk. We planned for every contingency but I always promised the American people that I will be straight with you. The truth is, this did unfold more quickly than we had anticipated.
So what's happened? Afghanistan political leaders gave up and fled the country. The Afghan military collapsed some time without trying to fight. If anything, the developments of the past week, reinforced that ending U.S. military involvement Afghanistan now was the right decision.
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CURNOW: Anna Coren has reported extensively from Afghanistan, including on a recent trip there. She joins me now from Hong Kong with the latest on the Taliban takeover. And of course, Joe Biden's comments there. What do you make of those?
ANNA COREN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Robyn, it's a tough one because, you know, America could not stay in Afghanistan forever. And then Joe Biden has a point, you know, why should American soldiers be fighting this war when the Afghan military is no longer willing to fight?
Yes, tens of billions of dollars were -- was invested in the Afghan national forces and that just all crumbled in a matter of months, if not weeks. And for, obviously, the president for the U.S. government, his administration, that alone is a reason for America to no longer be in this country. I think that the problem that everybody is grappling with is the execution of the evacuation -- of the exit strategy of the Americans. Obviously, 20 years has meant that women's rights, you know, girls going to school, the media industry, you know, there has been such progress made. Human rights.
And will that all be taken away? Will Afghanistan go back to the Dark Ages, and that is the concern.
Now, in the last hour, we've heard from the Taliban spokesperson that has said, general amnesty will be given to all people who worked for the former Afghan government, the government of Ashraf Ghani, and is calling on government officials to return to work. And we have just seen on Tolo T.V., which is the private television company operating outside out in Kabul, I should say.
Their female anchor on the air, interviewing a Talib (PH) member. She was asking him, what are your future plans for the government? What are your future plans for women? What will happen to girls going to school university?
[02:10:03]
So, I mean the fact that she is appearing on T.V., interviewing him, that alone is a step in the right direction. On the national television station, the female anchors have been removed and replaced with Taliban or Talibs (PH) if -- as they call them.
But certainly the fact that Tolo is still operating, that they're putting female anchors on the air. I mean, that's quite incredible. But, you know, for many of the Afghans that I'm speaking to, Robyn, every single day, you know, they are not taking any of the promises being made by the Taliban of peace, at face value. They are extremely concerned about what the future holds for them and their families.
CURNOW: OK, thank you for that update there. Anna Coren, thank you very much. Excuse me.
So, the Biden administration was clearly dealt a bad hand and inherited not just the war, but also former President Donald Trump's deal with the Taliban to withdraw U.S. forces this year. But it's the execution of that pull out that could forever stain the Biden presidency.
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BIDEN: I know my decision will be criticized. But I would rather take all that criticism and pass this decision on to another president of United States yet another one, a fifth one. Because it's the right one. It's the right decision for our people. The right one for our brave service members who risked their lives serving our nation. That's the right one for America.
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CURNOW: Max Boot joins me now from Miami. He is a senior fellow for the Council on Foreign Relations and a columnist for The Washington Post.
Max, hi. Good to see you. You heard the president there, saying this was the best decision, this was good for America. What's your take on that?
MAX BOOT, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST (on camera): Well, my take is that President Biden is trying to put lipstick on a pig. I mean, this is obviously a disastrous decision that will have tremendous negative ramifications not just for Afghanistan, but for the region, and for the United States.
And I think that's obvious to anybody who's watching what has been unfolding in Afghanistan, in particular, in Kabul in the last few days. I mean, the horrific pictures of, of Afghans swarming the airport, and some of them even falling off of a U.S. transport plane that was leaving is an indication of how desperate people are to escape this new Taliban regime.
And it's pretty clear that the United States did not do the planning and the preparation work necessary to pull out cleanly and we've left tens of thousands of Afghans who are looking for evacuation, who worked with the U.S. forces, we've left them in the lurch.
And there even American citizens who are left in Afghanistan, because the government collapsed far more quickly than the Biden administration expected. I think this is really a moment of, of dishonor and defeat for the United States. And there's a lot of blame to go around, especially with President Trump who negotiated the disastrous accord that led to the U.S. withdrawal.
But ultimately, the buck stops with President Biden. And I don't think there's much you can say right now, that will make a bad situation much better, at least in the short run.
CURNOW: But isn't there a difference between a foreign policy decision which is to withdraw from Afghanistan and in the execution of that decision?
BOOT: Well, I think there's no question that even people who supported the idea of withdrawing are very critical of the way that it was executed, because there was no planning and no preparation work done.
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CURNOW: So, you can support one and not support the other basically.
BOOT: Absolutely. But I don't think there was any good way to -- honestly, I don't think there is any good way to pull out the remaining U.S. forces without resulting in a collapse of the Afghan military that we've trained for 20 years. And we've made the Afghan military reliant on the U.S., they become used to U.S. airpower, to U.S. intelligence, to U.S. logistics. You pull all that out very quickly, and I think, the overwhelming (INAUDIBLE)
(CROSSTALK) CURNOW: So, what was the option then? Because I think that's what the president was arguing. Was that this was always going to be messy and shambolic in many ways, because there was -- there was no other option but to leave and leaving essentially has -- is that the -- you know, the way this is flat panned out, is at the feet of the Afghan military, the feet of the Afghan government who he was clearly very, very disappointed with.
BOOT: I mean, I think we had another option we could have kept, you know, 3,000 troops, there may be plus them up by 1,000 or 2,000 in a primarily and advisory role, and keep -- kept the U.S. airpower there. I don't think there is any necessity to pull those out.
I didn't see overwhelming public demand to pull them out. And we still have troops in places like South Korea, Japan, and Germany, 70 years after they first arrived.
[02:15:01]
BOOT: So, I think we could have kept up a small presence in Afghanistan just as we still have a small presence in Iraq and that's nobody's first option. But that is what ought to be necessary to overt this disaster.
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CURNOW: So, why does he make this decision? So, if that -- if that -- if that was an option, if there was a third way, it wasn't such a binary choice, because he did present a pretty binary choice in his speech today. If there was this third way, which was to keep this very small -- almost listening post in Kabul, for example, why was it not done?
BOOT: That's a great question. I think this is really the president --
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CURNOW: And what are the political -- what's the political thinking behind this, because this has clearly been a political decision?
BOOT: Well, I, you know, I think President Biden is channeling some of the same political currents as President Trump. They both want to "end" forever wars. And I think this is a popular decision, which it is at the moment.
You know, I don't think this is President Biden's advisors. I don't think this is his Cabinet that's doing this. I think it's President Biden, because I think what happened was, in 2009, when he was vice president, he was on the losing end of an argument within the Obama administration over whether we said -- we should surge troops into Afghanistan. He argued against it, President Obama went the other way. And I think ever since then, Joe Biden has basically felt that our mission in Afghanistan is a mistake, doomed to failure.
And so he took advantage of the first opportunity you had as president to pull the plug. And of course, his excuse for doing that was that President Trump had negotiated this withdrawal agreement. But there is nothing that forced President Biden to abide by President Trump's agreement, which the Taliban themselves. They were not abiding by the terms of this, so, he could have easily gone another way. But he decided to, to pull out. And unfortunately, now, the terrible consequences are something that he will have to deal with for the rest of his presidency.
CURNOW: So, these images are certainly defining, particularly in the hour -- in the years of 24 hour news. I mean, these images certainly match up with Saigon as the defense -- as the state department is very reluctant to try and acknowledge.
CURNOW (voice-over): And we've got this image here out of U.S. military cargo plane of Afghans, just literally squash in. This extraordinary image squashed into the back of this cargo plane. How does this -- and I mean, clearly, we worried about girls and women in Afghanistan.
CURNOW (on camera): We worrying about folks on the ground, but politically when it comes to this decision, which should have been perhaps cut and dry an easy one for an American president, who had promised to end forever wars.
How does this then play out politically, particularly outside the beltway?
BOOT: I think that remains to be determined. Again, right now, the decision to pull out is popular. But remember --
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CURNOW: Yes.
BOOT: The decision to pull out of Iraq was also popular in 2011. But then, you saw the rise of Islamic State, you saw Americans getting beheaded on television. And all of a sudden, there was a popular clamor that send American troops back, which, and they were, in fact, sent back to Iraq in 2014.
So, I think, you know, what happens politically as a result of this withdrawal remains to be determined. I mean, if they're, you know, horrible atrocities committed in Afghanistan, if you see acts of terrorism being carried out from Afghanistan, I think all of that will affect public thinking. And I don't think that President Biden can count on indefinite public support.
And even though you know, Republicans engineer this, this withdrawal too with President Trump, that's not going to stop them from attacking Biden and holding him responsible for the consequences.
CURNOW: Max Boot joining me that from Miami, a senior fellow at the Council on Foreign Relations, and a columnist for The Washington Post. Thank you very much, Max, for your perspective.
BOOT: Thanks for having me. CURNOW: So, just ahead, there are new fears in Europe of another migrant crisis in the aftermath of this Taliban takeover in Afghanistan.
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CURNOW: So, the fall of Afghanistan is triggering a flurry of diplomatic meetings. In the coming hours, foreign ministers in the European Union will hold an emergency session and British Prime Minister Boris Johnson is planning to hold a virtual meeting of G7 leaders in the next few days.
In the aftermath of the Taliban takeover, European leaders are united and promising to protect the Afghans who aided their diplomats and troops during the war on terror.
They're also warning action must be taken to prevent another migrant crisis.
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ANGELA MERKEL, CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY (through translator): The developments in Afghanistan are also better for Germany and the other allied nations who under U.S. and NATO leadership for after 20 years in Afghanistan against terrorism, and for more liberal structures after the terrorist attacks of September 11th, 2001.
EMMANUEL MACRON, PRESIDENT OF FRANCE (through translator): Afghanistan's destabilization risks causing irregular migration to Europe. France, as I've said, have and will continue to do its duty, those who are most threatened. We will do our full part in an organized and fair international effort. But Afghanistan also needs in times to come to mobilize their forces. But Europe cannot be the only ones to take on consequences of the current situation.
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CUROW: Melissa Bell is in Paris with the latest on these comments from the European leaders. What's been the reaction there to Mr. Macron statement?
MELISSA BELL, CNN PARIS CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Well, there is even now this scramble really, Robyn to get not only European nationals out, but those Afghan support staff who helped them overnight, a first flight from France, bringing in special forces landed at Kabul airport, and then brought out French citizens.
But it's going to be a slow and painful and slightly messy process, as we've seen already so far. And the scramble is, of course, necessary because we know that those American troops are unlikely to stay in control of Kabul airport for terribly much longer. So, that ambassador's meeting will take place -- this foreign affairs ministers meeting rather virtually in order that the E.U. can try and coordinate better. Trying to get not just their nationals, but the Afghans that they want to help out of the country as well.
But as you suggested a moment ago, this happens against the backdrop of a debate and divisions that are beginning even now even as that scramble to get nationals out continues.
Europeans also looking at the next problem, the next issue that they see coming, which will be the migration crisis. You heard those words from the French president talking already even now. Even as Kabul fell of those irregular migration flows are much criticized sentence at this particular stage.
And even as Antonio Guterres last night had spoken at the U.N. Security Council about those 18 million Afghans, about half the population in the country, Robyn that are already in need of humanitarian assistance.
So, yes, an urge to be united in terms of getting nationals and Afghans back, but divisions already rearing their head over what comes next. Robyn.
CURNOW: OK, live in Paris, Thanks for that. Melissa Bell, there.
So, U.S. adversaries are exploring a new opportunity in Afghanistan. Russia says it's adopting a wait-and-see approach to recognizing the Taliban. Russia's ambassador to Afghanistan will meet a Taliban representative about safeguarding the embassy.
And President Vladimir Putin special envoy says the negotiations were rushed after the Afghans military poor showing.
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ZAMIR KABULOV IS A RUSSIAN DIPLOMAT AND RUSSIAN PRESIDENTIAL ENVOY TO AFGHANISTAN (through translator): We expected that the Afghan military sources are compared with the Americans and NATO will also be sometime under control this part of the country, which will allow to hold negotiations on the coalition transit governments.
Apparently, we will -- we overestimated the talents of our American colleagues, and this army gave up without a fight.
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CURNOW: Well, meantime, China wants a smooth transition as the Taliban take control of Afghanistan. Beijing says it is ready for "friendly relations".
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HUA CHUNYING, SPOKESWOMAN, CHINESE FOREIGN MINISTRY (through translator): China respects the right of the Afghan people to independently determine their own destiny and is willing to continue to develop friendly and cooperative neighbor relations with Afghanistan. and play a constructive role in the peace and reconstruction of Afghanistan.
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[02:25:13]
CURNOW: Kristie Lu stout, joins me now from Hong Kong with more on that. I mean, just by the tone of that comment there, does China see this is an opportunity?
KRISTIE LU STOUT, CNN CORRESPONDENT (on camera): Well, what China is seeing this is an opportunity to sort of do what it can to ensure stability. That is its number one concern right now as it adapts to this new reality.
Look, on Monday, China's Foreign Minister Wang Yi spoke with the Americans chief diplomat Antony Blinken. And yes, Wang Yi took the opportunity to slam America's hasty and hurried exit from Afghanistan.
But he also said, look, China and the United States can work together to create what the Chinese are calling a soft landing to promote stability and -- in Afghanistan. With the goal here to avoid a humanitarian catastrophe, to avoid a civil war, and also to avoid a return to becoming a safe haven for terrorism.
Even before the Taliban retake over of Afghanistan, relations seem to be warming between the Taliban and Beijing. In fact, we'll bring up the video for you was just last month, in July, when Wang Yi welcomed a high level delegation of Taliban leaders to the Chinese port city of Tianjin.
And during that time, he said that the Taliban -- this is before the takeover said that they were an important political and military force in Afghanistan. Observers have been watching this very carefully, and they call this China's reluctant embrace of the Taliban.
Why is this happening? It's all about stability and security. Look, China shares a border with Afghanistan. It's a very small border, but it's one that exists and it touches the western region of Xinjiang.
China also has significant investments in Central Asia through its One Belt, One Road infrastructure initiative, especially in Pakistan. China has also signaled that it would extend the program into Afghanistan. And China also wants to minimize the risks posed by active terror groups.
Take a listen to this.
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HENRY STOREY, POLITICAL RISK ANALYST: I think China is really quite worried that the instability and chaos on the ground in Afghanistan factored with the Taliban's previous relationship, and indeed ongoing relationship with the East Turkestan Islamic Movement.
They're worried that Afghanistan could become something of a training ground of this group. And I think Beijing would be worried that what's happening on the ground in Afghanistan would provide an opportunity for a team to regroup and further their presence in Afghanistan. (END VIDEO CLIP)
LU STOUT: Now, the fate of this East Turkestan Islamic Movement is definitely a point -- another point of contention between China and the United States. A Monday Wang Yi told Antony Blinken that China objected to the fact that the United States back in October of 2020 took the group off the U.S. terror list.
The Ministry of Foreign Affairs and later released a statement saying that United States cannot count on China if it continues to impede on China's interests. Robyn.
CURNOW: OK, thanks for that Kristie Lu Stout.
So, the Biden administration is expected to advise COVID booster shots for most Americans. That's according to a source familiar with the discussions. They're planning to recommend a booster dose eight months after full vaccination. The plan is still being developed and would need approval from the U.S. Food and Drug Administration first, but the rollout is expected in mid to late September with health care workers, care home patients, and elderly at the front of the queue.
And then, just ahead, fear and chaos in Afghanistan's capital as thousands of people rushed to flee the Taliban. And for many rarely there is only one way out, the Kabul airport.
[2:30:00]
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CURNOW: Welcome back to all over viewers, here, around the world. I'm robin Curnow. This is CNN, at 31 minutes past the hour.
So, U.S. President Joe Biden acknowledged the Taliban takeover in Afghanistan. And, the governments collapse happened quicker than his administration anticipated. In his speech on Monday, the president said he stands behind his decision to end America's longest war, and is willing to take the criticism. But he also blames Afghan leaders who fled the country and Afghan troops for not standing up to the Taliban offensive.
Now, in Kabul, Taliban fighters are making it clear of who is in control now as they gathered outside the U.S. embassy and on the streets. But at the Kabul Airport, heartbreaking scenes, as desperate Afghans grab onto U.S. warplane, as you see here -- a cargo plane, and attempt to leave the country. President Biden is also facing questions over why evacuations, from Afghanistan, did not begin sooner. And here is how he addressed that. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: I know there are concerns about why did not we begin evacuating for Afghan civilians sooner? Part of the answer is some of the Afghans did not want to leave earlier. Still hopeful for their country. And part of it is because the Afghan government, and its supporters discouraged us from organizing a mass exodus to avoid triggering, as they said, a crisis of confidence.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CURNOW: But a crisis is exactly what's unfolding in Kabul right now. Thousands of Afghans swarm city's airport on Monday trying to escape the country as the Taliban take control.
Nick Paton Walsh has more, from Kabul.
Nick.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR (voiceover): This is the only way out for so many. The airport road, jammed. Chaos. Over one trillion dollars spent, and this is what the end looks like. Walk where you can't drive.
WALSH (on camera): Juist ahead of us as the gates into the airport and this is the panic scene of many people still moving there despite how hard it's been.
WALSH (voiceover): Now, now the entry to the last bit of Afghanistan America controls, there is panic.
WALSH (on camera): They're shooting tanks, right?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. They say --
WALSH: Let's turn around.
WALSH (voiceover): Tanks, someone shouts. But who is doing crowd control outside America's evacuation spot? The Taliban. With vehicles they have taken from the Afghan army, paid for by America, now used to keep the desperate crowds back. People whose only hope is to get out, possibly, with American help.
Crowding and gates, trying to climb over walls originally built to keep an insurgency out. At one time, pushing en masse and being sent running. Nearly every gate with a crowd fueled with the idea this is their only way out.
U.S. troops at the perimeter shot dead two Afghans who they said were armed but later admitted we're not Taliban.
But inside of the airport, the great escape was not going according to script and check-in security had collapsed. Afghans, convinced the promise of a flight out was their only life ahead, clambering over walkways and tarmac for U.S. spend billions on to maintain its presence.
And then this startling image, one of the U.S.'s largest cargo planes taxiing laden with Afghans who did not want to be left behind. Later, a plane takes off, and what you are about to see is disturbing. As the plane ascends, two objects, or people, appear to fall from the fuselage. But the sheer scale of those who needed help meant it was even harder to come by.
[02:35:00]
Civilian flights, canceled. Even the Americans had to pause operations until they could regain control. These images from satellites in space showing just the volume of people, thronging in and around Hamid Karzai International Airport, the symbol of the United States billions spent in a 20-year project. The U.S. always wanted to win hearts and minds here but their swift, unconditional departure has instead filled them with panic.
Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Kabul.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CURNOW: Ram Kishan, a deputy regional director for Asia at Mercy Corps joins me now from New Delhi.
Good to see you, I understand the you made it out on the last commercial flight out of that airport. Just tell us what the scenes are like for you?
RAM KISHAN, DEPUTY REGIONAL DIRECTOR FOR ASIA, MERCY CORPS: I was one of those lucky and unfortunate ones who were able to leave on the commercial flight and we didn't see the kind of chaos that we see in Kabul Airport now. After we flew and landed in Delhi, we realize that the airspace was closed and some of my colleagues from the sector who are coming into the next flight really, they were stuck there for a couple of hours and they landed late evening.
What they saw in the evening after that, people coming into the airport and the scenes we see in the Kabul Airport is definitely very concerning where people are desperate and there is no order.
CURNOW: And what were people telling you?
KISHAM: People are desperate. We had some of our Afghan citizens who were traveling to Delhi, they are all concerned about their safety, their family's safety, and I think they are looking at opportunities to leave. And that is what we see in Kabul Airport and many of the places that we have seen desperate to leave. And also, people who have leave -- left their homes in Northern Afghanistan to come to Kabul, we have seen large number IDPs in the Kabul City, those are waiting for humanitarian assistance or any kind of support coming in for them.
CURNOW: The work that you do on the ground is so important and has been so important in previous years. How do you feel like you're going to be able to continue do it? How vulnerable are those people still trapped inside of Afghanistan from your perspective?
KISHAM: Mercy Corps has been working in Afghanistan since 1986 and we are committed to continue our humanitarian and development work in the country. We have been working with communities across Afghanistan. One of our biggest concerns is that movement to access to our team members and safety for our members to go and support the IPDs who are living in Kabul but also outside. At the moment, people are scrambling for food, for water and sanitation and also for shelter. So, there's -- one of the biggest strategy for Mercy Corps and many other P.R. agencies is to provide the much is a much needed lifesaving humanitarian assistance, which, is at the moment, is paramount important. And also, to make sure that the civilians and those who are displaced are safe.
CURNOW: Obviously, all focus has been, in the last few days, on Kabul. But how concerned are you about children, about women in rural areas, in the outskirts, in other towns?
KISHAM: We are very concerned and I think we not really have a full picture because some areas are still not accessible as to what is the situation. But what we can imagine, small children, women are definitely vulnerable. There are protection should there be a concern. And will be important for the international community to stand together in solidarity with Afghanistan and Afghan people, making sure that the needed support and also assistance is provided to the people who are there, who are trapped there, who would like to -- would be able to leave Afghanistan.
CURNOW: How are humanitarians like you reacting to the way that Americans pulled out here? No doubt, you expected it, it was telegraphed ahead that they would be doing this. The speed of the Taliban advance and also the way that this was exited, what are your feelings as you try to digest the last few days?
KISHAM: I think I was like -- all other agencies, Mercy Corps, is obviously concerned. The most important concern for us is the safety and security and meeting the humanitarian need of the communities. We note, I think everybody is surprised by the speed things have changed in Afghanistan over the last one week. And I was living in Kabul. So, I think like everyone, everybody is taken by surprised. But I think at the moment, the biggest task ahead of us is to make sure those who are displaced, those who are in humanitarian need, also need to look at rebuilding Afghanistan and long-term development required in the country.
CURNOW: Well, thank you for all the work you do, really appreciate it and thank you for joining us here at CNN.
KISHAM: Thank you.
CURNOW: Ram Kisan, thank you very much.
So, the death toll is climbing in Haiti, after Saturday's earthquake destroyed tens of thousands of homes. And now, blocked roads are making it difficult for aid workers to reach those in need, as we've just been hearing. And, making matters worse, Tropical Storm Grace is bearing down on Haiti. We are tracking all of this.
[02:40:00]
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CURNOW: The death toll from the massive earthquake in Haiti just keeps on climbing. Haitian officials now report more than 1,400 people have died. Thousands more injured. And tens of thousands of homes are damaged or destroyed. All of this comes as heavy rain from Tropical Storm Grace threatens to unleash flash flooding and mudslides in the area where the quake hit.
And we wait to see the impact of the storm, Joe Johns now reports on the current relief efforts for quake victims. Joe?
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JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): A desperate scene in Les Cayes as rescue workers, aided by heavy duty machinery, sift through the rubble in the wake of the 7.2 magnitude quake that struck southern Haiti, Saturday. The U.S. and Columbia sending specialized rescue teams to help.
While there have been moments of miraculous rescues, hope of finding more survivors under the flattened buildings and the mountains of debris is fading. The death toll, according to Haiti Civil Protection Agency, is more than 1,400.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): The whole area where I live is destroyed. There are many people dead. We don't know how many did there are.
JOHNS (voiceover): Local hospitals, some badly damaged by the quake, overwhelmed by the estimated 5,700 people injured.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (through translator): Yesterday, it was really hard and we didn't have enough staff. We had the people who work at the hospital, but we didn't have any staff. Although, we kept them until 6:00 am.
JOHNS (voiceover): International aid pouring into the country from the U.S., Mexico, and around the world. But getting that aid to those most in need, a huge challenge. As officials work to establish a humanitarian corner from Port-au-Prince to the affected areas to the south free of gang violence.
A tall order for a nation already buckling beneath the weight of economic instability, the COVID pandemic, and political unrest following the assassination of the country's president last month. Haiti's prime minister appealing to his nation to work together to help those affected by the quake. Many now homeless and forced to sleep outside.
ARIEL HENRY, HAITIAN PRIME MINISTER (through translator): This is the moment to unite, to have a greater national unity. A greater solidarity with the victims. Let's forget our quarrels and come to the aid of those in difficulty.
JOHNS (voiceover): The risk of further devastation as Tropical Storm Grace arrives. Punishing wind and rain now adding another challenge to rescue teams. The possibility of flash floods and mudslides.
JOHNS (on camera): At times like this in Haiti, it is often said that this country is stranded, somewhere between hope and despair. And that was the case on Monday night. Hope for the people who were stranded out in the rain, people who had lost their homes, despair because it is only the beginning of their misery. Joe Johns, CNN, Port-au-Prince.
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[02:45:00]
CURNOW: Thank, Joe, for that.
And as mentioned, the big concern now is how much Tropical Storm Grace could affect our recovery if it's in Haiti. Emergency officials are bracing for heavy rain and floods. And the prime minister is vowing to ramp up the government's response.
Well, let's go straight to Pedram Javaheri. Pedram is was tracking the storm for us.
What are your satellite images telling you?
PEDRAM JAVAHERI, CNN METEOROLOGIST: Hello, Robyn.
This is the brunt of the storm, the worst that has been happening at this hour or the system. In the last couple of hours, it has been pushing just south of the island here and they tremendous amounts of rainfall observed across the island. And we know the latest observation has increased this to a tropical storm. Really a negligible difference as far as wind speed is concerned. It's the amount of rainfall that is forecast, here that is very concerning.
And you've got to keep in mind, this is one of the most deforested locations on earth, retaining only 1 percent of its primary force. In fact, if you analyze of the 50 highest peaks across the islands there, 42 of these highest peaks have been completely deforested. And again, it plays a difficult role in the amount of water that hits the ground because we know forest canopies can actually intercept about 70 percent of the rainfall amounts that come down.
But when you take a landscape as such, very elevated terrain, you bring down as much as 300 to 500 millimeters of rainfall in an area that was previously vegetated, so it could intercept that quite a bit of rainfall that would come down. Now, it just becomes instant runoff. And that is the main concern here, because that runoff, of course, could lead to landslides, mudslides, and all of this works its way downstream the island here and across portions of Haiti in particular. Elevations do climb a size high 8,000 feet. So, this is a major, major concern for an area that certainly doesn't need anything else.
And you just take a look, just since 2010, of course there's 7.0, 7.2, category 4 hurricane and Matthew. That was back in 2016. And now, we have this tropical storm skirting to the south just on the heels of a 7.2. So, that is what we're following.\
Also, watching the system over the next several days, potentially making other landfall near Yucatan Peninsula, right around Cancun or Cozumel, and potentially increase beyond that to a category 1 hurricane, making another landfall into Northern Mexico or maybe Southern Texas. So, this is a story we're following over the next couple of days as well.
CURNOW: Keep us posted. Thanks so much. Pedram Javaheri there. Thank you.
So, for more on how you can help people of Haiti, please go to cnn.com/impact.
So, after 20 years of war in Afghanistan, many U.S. veterans are asking, was it worth it? Well, coming up, I'll speak with a former army ranger who did two tours of duty fighting the Taliban. His, thoughts ahead.
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BIDEN: The scenes we have in Afghanistan, they are gut wrenching. Particularly for our veterans. Our diplomats, humanitarian workers, for anyone who has spent time on the ground working to support the Afghan people.
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CURNOW: The U.S. president there acknowledging the heartbreaking and desperate scenes playing out in the Afghan capital.
Well, Joe Biden says, he stands behind his decision in the face of growing criticism over his administration's handling of the U.S. withdrawal after that swift, Taliban, take over. Well, Taliban fighters now of control of the streets of Kabul and could be seen gathering outside of the U.S. embassy here. But, at the airport, scenes of desperation as Afghans start to cling to a moving U.S. military plane in their attempt to flee the country.
[02:50:00]
Many U.S. veterans are horrified by the Taliban's rapid takeover in Afghanistan and wondering if America's longest war was worth it. We'll hear from one of them in just a moment.
But first, the U.S. launched its 20-year war in the wake of terror attacks on 9/11. The mission, then, was to capture Osama bin Laden, to put out terrorists and prevent Afghanistan from being a safe haven for extremists. President Biden has long argued the effort was not about nation building. On Monday, he defended America's withdrawal, reiterating it, it was time to go.
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BIDEN: How many more generations of America's daughters and sons would you have me send to fight Afghanistan's civil war when Afghan troops will not? How many more lives, American lives, is it worth? How many endless rows of headstones at Arlington National Cemetery? I am clear on my answer. (END VIDEO CLIP)
CURNOW: Tom Amenta is a former U.S. army ranger who did two tours in Afghanistan. He is also the co-author of "The Twenty Year War." He joins me now from Omaha, Nebraska.
Tom, hi. Great to have you on the show.
You heard the president there saying he didn't want to the pass this war into a fifth president, he didn't want more families to go through, perhaps, what you and many other families have gone through. What is your reaction to that?
TOM AMENTA, FORMER U.S ARMY RANGER: I think that the best laid plans of mice and men are off to go astray. And I think that he is going to do exactly what he says he's not going to. We just gave control of this country back to the exact same group that, 20 years ago, was giving safe harbor to Osama bin Laden. But now, they are 20 years smarter, 20 years wiser and 20 years better prepared.
A friend of mine, who is also another combat veteran, who wasn't quite in the book, but he was pointing out that when you look at the palace photos of everything, whereas before, the Taliban had no trigger discipline, their fingers were on the triggers, they are pointing their barrels at each other. Now, they are fully disciplined. Now, they look the way that we train people in how to fight. And I don't know a veteran, Robyn, in -- that I have talked to over the past few days, but one of the 71 that was in our book, or my other friends, that want us to just be in Afghanistan forever. All of us would like to find a way to get us out. But this isn't the way.
We are going to go back to Afghanistan at some point because we haven't done the things that the Biden administration said today in their speech of saying, we rooted out of terrorism. We have just given back to that country the group that harbored and kept Osama bin Baden safe.
CURNOW: How did you guys feel when you saw what was happening and unfolding so quickly on CNN and elsewhere? I mean, the Taliban took the country in under a week. Kabul without a shot, almost.
AMENTA: I was and still am really very upset. One of the narratives that's been, you know, perpetrated, I guess is the most appropriate term about how the ANA or the Afghan National Army didn't have the will to fight, the best statistics that we can find in the United States, is that from 2014 to 2020, over 45,000 of them died, with our support. With American air cover. With American advisers. In the area.
And suddenly, in the middle of the night, three or four weeks ago, we chase colors and leave the Bagram Airfield. And everyone was like, well, why did this happen so fast? You're now -- they're now dealing with the reality of they can lay down their arms, you know, or they can die. And not just them dying but their families dying too. That's a horrible awful choice.
And knowing how much they sacrificed, not being paid properly because of government corruption, not being fed properly and to somehow say that they lacked the will when 45,000 of them perished over the past six years? That's disingenuous and at best, in my opinion, they fought hard. It's -- this failed on a lot of political levels across the entire 20 years. I am not saying that this is all the Biden administration's fault, it's not. There's plenty of rain to go around.
America is supposed to stand for democracy, for freedom, that's the American ideal of being the beacon on the hill. That is the ideal of all western democracies, for that matter. And here we are leaving with no plan and leaving up to 75,000 people, potentially to die, because we did not have a plan. Because we just decided to leave. And that is unconscionable to me.
CURNOW: When you are there, you did two tours in Afghanistan in 2002, 2004. You've obviously just written this book talking about a 20-year war. You speak to all of your former comrades. No doubt, when you were sitting there in Afghanistan, did you think about the endgame? Did you think how this would end? Have you talked about what the final moment would look like when America left? Is this what is so jarring? Is this the sense that perhaps this looks like a loss? And that it certainly looks like, perhaps, you are back at square one, which is 20 years ago the Taliban were in power?
[02:55:00]
AMENTA: So, the square one right now is something that I really struggle with. For me, especially because I was there. I was one of the first men from 2nd Ranger Battalion to step off the plane into a combat zone since Panama in 1989 when I got there in 2002. Our entire mission, our entire life focusing goal was get Osama bin Laden. It was right after Tora Bora. We were looking for him. Like that was the clarity of purpose.
And, you know, in my time talking to fellow veterans, you know, friends of mine that chose to stay after I left, you know, from my first -- you know, left my enlistment and things like that, up until May 2nd of 2011 when we finally did get him, it was always about that mission. It was always about we are going to bring this man and that organization and that horrible group of people to justice.
And after that, I think that the political, how do we stick to landing, how do we leave, I think the what exactly are we here for, there's multiple different policy adjustments and changes in attempt to do things, it's has always been, this can't be the way to leave. That's what everyone is saying. And I think that's what we're all wrestling with for the most part.
CURNOW: Tom Amenta, a former U.S. army ranger who did these two tours in Afghanistan, thank you for everything you did. Also, coauthor of "The Twenty Year War." We appreciate you giving your perspective on what's been playing out in Afghanistan in the last few days. Thank you, Tom.
AMENTA: Thank you so much for having me.
CURNOW: So, that wraps up this hour of CNN. I am Robyn Curnow. I'm going to hand you over to my colleague, Rosemary Church.
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