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Milley Says Afghan Army Collapse Comes Down to A Failure of Will and Leadership; Pentagon Says They Don't Have Capability to Expand Airport Perimeter; Pentagon Gives Update on Crisis in Afghanistan; Defense Chief Says Don't Have Ability to Go Out and Get Large Numbers of Americans If Taliban Don't Let Them Reach Airport; Pentagon Says Nothing Indicated a Collapse of Afghanistan in 11 Days; Texas Doctor Says Our COVID ICUs Are Like a War Zone. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired August 18, 2021 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

LLOYD AUSTIN, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We cannot afford to either not defend that airfield or not have an airfield that's secure where we have hundreds or thousands of civilians that can access the airfield at will and put our forces at risk.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: But that doesn't answer the question. I mean you're till saying your focused on the airfield. These people can't get into the airfield.

AUSTIN: Well, we're going to do everything we can to continue to try to deconflict and create passageways for them to get to the airfield.

I don't have the capability to go out and extend operations currently into Kabul. And where do you take that? I mean, how far can you extend into Kabul, you know, and how long does it take flow those forces in to be able to do that.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, it sounds like you're saying this depends on diplomacy with the Taliban, that's it, that is our only option, is getting them to agree to do this.

GENERAL MARK MILLEY, JOINT CHIEFS' CHAIRMAN: Well, let me add something here, Helene. We got a couple entry control points set up. A north one and east one and a third one at Abby gate. They are currently manned with consular officers, Marines, this is all part of the perimeter. Messages have gone out by various means of communication from the State Department to American citizens and others. And they are being told to go to those gates.

Right now, we're processing at about -- I think the last report was about 120, 130 an hour, something like that, at the north. And about 340, 350 an hour, something like that, at the south gate. So right now, there is a steady flow of people. Now, as that goes on, I think those numbers will continue to grow and

as those messages go out, and I would tell you that for the American citizens, passport holders, the Taliban and the State Department -- I got it, but they are working on a facilitation measure. So those numbers are likely to grow.

For the others, the State Department is still working through exactly getting the procedures for the evacuees to get to the airfield.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK, Jen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Defense Secretary Austin, how many U.S. taxpayer funded military aircraft have been flown out of the country and what are you doing to get those back? We've heard of Afghan pilots taking those planes to third countries.

And General Milley, you talk about the intelligence reports and you said there wasn't anything suggesting 11 days that Kabul would fall, but you do mention there were some reports suggesting it could fall in weeks. If so, why did you abandon the Bagram Airfield, why did U.S. military pull out given the uncertainty?

AUSTIN: Jen, in terms of the aircraft that have been flown out that you mentioned earlier, I have received reports of a number of aircraft that were flown into Uzbekistan and Tajikistan. Exactly how many, you know, I don't have firm numbers on.

In terms of what we're doing about them currently, right now, Jen, we're focused on the airfield and getting people out safely. And so, we're going to take that issue up at a later date. And we're going to continue to try to gain greater fidelity on the issue as well.

MILLEY: And on your question of Bagram, securing Bagram, you know how big Bagram is you've been there many times. Securing Bagram is a significant level of military effort and forces, and it would also require external support from the Afghan security forces.

Our task -- give to us at -- our task was to protect the embassy in order for the embassy personnel to continue to function with the consular services and all that.

If we were to keep both Bagram and the embassy going, that would be a significant number of military forces that would have exceeded what we had. Or stayed the same or exceeded what we had. So, it had to collapse, one or the other, and a decision was made, the proposal was made from CENTCOM command and the command on the ground, Scott Miller, to go ahead and collapse Bagram,

That was all briefed and approved and we estimated that the risk of going out of HKIA or the risk of going out of Bagram was about the same. So going out of HKIA was estimated to be the better tactical solution in accordance with the mission set we were given and in accordance with getting the troops down to about a 600, 700 number.

MODERATOR: OK, we've got time for to two more. And I haven't gotten to the phones at all. So, we'll go to Dan Lamothe from the "Washington Post."

DAN LAMOTHE. REPORTER, "WASHINGTON POST": Yes, thank you. General, just to follow up on the Bagram versus HKIA question. HKIA has a single runway with the commercial airport making it much more difficult to defend that runway. We've already seen that this week. Bagram has two runways. It would have been a lot easier to protect people once inside.

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Is there any thought of retaking Bagram in order to expedite this evacuation and if not, why not? Thanks.

MILLEY: I won't -- good question, great question. But I'm not going to discuss branches and sequels off of our current operations. I'll just leave it at that.

MODERATOR: OK, and I think the last one for the day will go to you, Courtney.

COURTNEY KUBE, NBC NEWS: You know, General Milley, you keep saying that no one expected collapse of the Afghan government and military in 11 days but the reality is the Taliban offensive began weeks ago. They were threatening Kandahar a month ago already.

So, the question is if you both think you had such a moral obligation to these Afghans who supported the military and State Department for 20 years, should you have pushed harder when the Taliban offensive began to get these people out, and then the U.S. may not be in this situation that they are in right now.

And then also if there is this U.S. military and Taliban deconfliction process that's going on right now, have you been asking them to allow the Afghans through and has Taliban denied that request? Is that why there is not some effort -- the State Department or embassy put out a statement today saying that the U.S. couldn't provide any safe passage for these Afghans. Is that because the Taliban won't allow that in this deconfliction?

AUSTIN: There's a -- it's a pretty -- it is a very dynamic environment as you would imagine. And of course, there have been things that have occurred that, you know, we do hear reports of people getting turned away from -- by checkpoints. We've gone back and tried to -- and reinforced to the Taliban that if they have credentials, they need to be allowed through. And so that is working better than it was.

And quite frankly, we have, you know, the major issue right now is processing the people who are there as fast as we possibly can. It is not a dearth of people, you know, getting there, it is just being able to move the folks that are there through so that we can get them on aircraft.

But there have been some unfortunate incidents that I've learned about. And we continue to work to try to deconflict and make sure that there is safe passage for the people that are trying to get to the airport. UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Have you asked the Taliban or has the military

asked the Taliban to allow these Afghans through and they have declined?

AUSTIN: We continue to work that, yes, we have. We have gone back and emphasized that people who are trying to get to the airport and have the right credentials need to be allowed through.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Because right now the airport represents safety to a lot of these people. As the Taliban are in Kabul, they are worried that the longer they wait to get there, the secure airport, you know, even if they need to wait there several days to get on a flight. So that is why there is, you know, freneticism to get them through.

And then also -- if you could also address the question of should you have pushed harder when it was clear that the Taliban offensive was gaining momentum, you know, a month ago down towards Kandahar and other places?

MILLEY: Well, like I said up front, there's going to be plenty of time for AARs. Right now, we're focus on the mission, focus on these getting people out. American citizens, the SIVs, others, Afghans at risk. And There's going to be plenty of time to talk about regrets and pushed harder and all these other kinds, intel assessment et cetera.

Plenty of time to do AARs. Right now, is not that time.

MODERATOR: Thanks, guys, we're going to have to go. Appreciate your time. Thank you so much.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: OK, we've been listening to a briefing there at the Pentagon by General Milley as well as Secretary Lloyd Austin. There were a lot of questions that they couldn't fully answer right now.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Let's look for our own answers. With us we have CNN global affairs analyst Susan Glasser, CNN chief national security correspondent, Jim Sciutto, CNN's senior political analyst Nia-Malika Henderson, and CNN military

analyst Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. And CNN Pentagon correspondent Oren Liebermann, great to have you all.

General, I want to start with you as the man who has commanded troop movements and things like this. Were you reassured by what you just heard?

Because to my untrained ear it sounds like they might need more troops to expand that perimeter to get more people out.

LT. GENERAL MARK HERTLING, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Yes, I was partly reassured and also had some questions, Alisyn.

It was interesting Secretary Austin's comments about extending the perimeter. I think that is something that lot of people would like them to do. Let's go further out into the city, let's prevent the Taliban from interfering with anything. The great reporting by Clarissa Ward where people have been stopped coming toward the airport.

It would seem the prudent solution that a military force would just go out and counter any Taliban activity. That's easier said than done with the size of the force that is present at the airport right now.

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There were some other things that were interesting to me as you and I talked last week, I think it was, when John Kirby had his press conference and talked about what they were doing. And I said, hey, make no mistake about it, this is the prelude to a NEO operation.

When Chairman Milley said, yes, this is the second largest NEO that we've ever done, that really hit hard to me. Because I've planned and executed a partial NEO and I know how difficult that planning and partial execution was. To say this is the second largest with perhaps upwards of 80,000 people tells me this is a striking and very complicated issue from the standpoint of extraction of personnel. The fact that you don't have support from either the host nation government, the support of the host nation military.

You don't quite know where the people are that you are extracting and the focus several times was placed on the American citizens versus the SIV. As sad as that may sound, that's the primary mission, is get Americans out.

And then the question that some of the reporters were asking about the disconnects between what they are seeing by some reporters on the ground like our great Clarissa Ward, but also was being said in the conference, there were some definite disconnects, that's for sure.

BLACKWELL: So, Jim, on that question that the general just brought up, the potential for going out to collect Americans. Secretary Austin said that they don't have the capability, the ability right now to go out and get people. We don't know where these 10,000 to 15,000 Americans are. Is it possible that they are in Kandahar, that there are Americans in Herat hundreds of miles away?

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN CHIEF NATIONAL SECURITY REPORTER: It is absolutely possible. Listen, I've spoken to Afghans who are sheltering in place right now out of fear, right. And Americans as well. Because regardless of what they are hearing from the embassy, they are just worried if they go out that they are going to be in danger, right. That the Taliban is targeting them.

And that was an honest admission from General Austin that they don't have the capability to go out and get everyone. That would require taking not just Kabul, right, but the potential of going to other areas of the country which they don't seem prepared to do or have the resources to do. What struck me about that press conference, you had two leaders there

who didn't want to be there, they don't want to be in this position because as you remember, President Biden made this decision to withdraw all U.S. forces over the recommendations of the senior military commanders including General Milley there. They had advised him that it would be wiser and safer to leave a small force perhaps 3,500 to 4,000 to maintain intelligence gathering capability, counterterror capability, but also a sort of keystone as it were for the Afghan military in terms of confidence.

You had two men there, you know, also who were involved in this war. You heard General Austin say, you know, that this is a war that I fought in and led. It is personal for them. So, this is not a mission they wanted. They're doing their best with a difficult mission handed to them by the miscalculation of civilian leaders.

CAMEROTA: Susan Glasser, I want to know what jumped out at you as well as what you thought about their answer for whether this was an intelligence failure. They said that there were all different scenarios that the intelligence reports laid out, but none showed that Kabul would collapse in the space of 11 days.

SUSAN GLASSER, GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, that's right, Alisyn. I was struck by that Chairman Milley, he was the one who said that there was nothing that said that's going to collapse this quickly in 11 days. That seemed to be a response to reports over the last few days that seemed to be sort of leaks from the intelligence community pushing back on the idea that this was some sort of an intelligence failure.

Pointing out the many times and the many scenarios in which the Biden administration like the Trump administration before it had been warned by intelligence officials, by military officials that a takeover by the Taliban was likely. And not at all what President Biden said just a few weeks ago that it was highly unlikely.

So, this seemed to be Milley's push back just to say, OK, we'll find there was concerns about a Taliban takeover, which he himself had, but at the same time no one thought that it was going to happen this quickly at least according to any intelligence report he saw.

There's going to be endless finger pointing about this. He actually tried to cut off the blame game and the After Action Report, but then seemed to be unable to resist jumping into it.

As far as what is happening right now, I was struck in this press conference by one thing in particular, there are more capacity right now in terms of military planes being able to fly out, but we can't fill them up. It sounds like the State Department is not yet able to get enough bodies on the plane who have been approved.

I'm wondering and we can't didn't get an answer to this, is it because enough people who have paperwork who are American citizens or who have approved visas or are in the pipeline, is it because they can't get from Kabul to the airport safely? Is it because there aren't enough people who are approved yet because there has been a slow bureaucratic pace?

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It's probably some combination of the two. But I found it alarming that they were already saying that we have more capacity to fill up these planes than we do to have people to take the seats on the planes.

BLACKWELL: Yes, and our Clarissa Ward spoke with people this morning who were outside of the airport showing pictures of green cards and the applications and they were saying that members of the Taliban were not allowing them to get into the airfield there.

Oren Liebermann, let me come to you, we had a guest on earlier, Matt Zeller who's an Afghanistan war veteran who was saying that the Pentagon should now return to Bagram and use that as a facility as well to try to bring people in and fly them out.

General Milley would not comment on that during this news conference. Any indication that that is an option that's considered to give them more resources to evacuate people over the next 12 to 13 days?

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Well, General Mark Milley did address the considerations and what they decided to secure. He said look, there was basically a decision between securing Bagram Air Base and securing the embassy with a finite number of U.S. troops. And that decision was made by U.S. Central Command, Commander General McKenzie, as well as the commander on the ground there until very recently to devote the U.S. troops to securing the embassy.

Bagram Air Base is an enormous airfield, multiple runways if I'm not mistake, it would have been possible to move more people out of Bagram Air Base, but first it is far away. And Kabul International Airport is not far away from Kabul.

Second, to secure a facility of that size, the general said would require not only more U.S. troops but also troops from the Afghans as well as others. It is a much more difficult logistical operation to try to secure Bagram Air Base. Given the limitations on personnel, given the distance between Kabul and the international airport versus Kabul and Bagram, the decision was made to secure the embassy and use HKIA, Hamad Karzai International Airport in Kabul.

That of course was a key decision and one that they are not considering re-doing or revisiting. Meaning they're not going to send more people, at least as of right now, into Bagram Air Base to try to get more people out of the base.

And as was just said a moment ago, the issue here is not the number of flights, although they are trying to increase that as well, given the numbers the Pentagon gave today, there were 18 flights with 2,000 people. That is about 110 people per flight, that's not nearly enough. Those flights are leaving more than half empty or, rather, less than half empty as they try to move tens of thousands of people.

They need to process faster, the general said they are only processing about 500 people an hour at the north and south gates. They are trying to increase that as well. And then they're trying to get more flights in and out of the airport.

He also made one subtle point, he said that commercial traffic, which is also a part of moving people in and out, can only operate under visual flight rules. If the weather turns bad there, getting people out of that airport suddenly becomes much more difficult.

CAMEROTA: Nia-Malika, do we know how engaged President Biden is on this? They tweeted a picture of him being briefed, a photograph of him and I believe Vice President Harris being briefed. Should we be hearing more from the president? And is it possible that he will change his mind about some of these things? Or push for a different deadline, push for more troops?

NIA-MALIKA HENDERSON, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL ANALYST: You know that -- I think that is the takeaway from this briefing. It is that we have to wait to see what happens in these coming days. Because from what you are hearing from the folks there today, Milley and Austin, doesn't sound like they have enough time, doesn't sound like they have enough troops either for this massive operation to evacuate all of those folks, Americans as well as Afghans as well who are on the ground there.

We will hear from Biden again on this. I'm sure he's going to have a sit-down interview with ABC later today, I think it airs tomorrow. And I think there are going to be some more statements from him on other topics. But I'm certain that he is engaged on this.

He said on Monday the buck stops with him. He is taking responsibility for this saying that it hasn't been perfect, it has been messy and we certainly see from the scenes on our televisions today that that is certainly the case.

I think in the coming days we could see some further developments here in terms of this massive operation whether or not they decide to extend this deadline by the end of the month or extend the amount of troops. Because it certainly doesn't seem like they have enough troops for this operation at this point.

BLACKWELL: General, on that point, we heard from Admiral Kirby and others 5,000 to 9,000 people could be evacuated per day when they are at their prime resources. We're still at 2,000 per day. How long until the U.S. military can get to that number?

HERTLING: Well, it's based on what we were just talking about, Victor. We're on day two of this, remember. This is day two of a NEO operation. So, it will begin to ramp up.

[15:50:00]

State Department will put more people there to process at the gates as General Milley talked about. There will be more people flowing in. There will be less confusion. There already was less confusion today than there was yesterday. And we will see the flow start. I firmly leave -- and I have no facts behind this -- but I firmly

believe that this evacuation will continue past the deadline of 31 August to get people out of there.

I'd also say a couple of other things and I saw your interview with Matt Zeller and it was very emotional and I agree with him to get all those folks out. But to just kind of throw off the cuff, hey, open up Bagram airfield again.

That would be a forced entry combat operation, probably with some casualties. That airport has now been closed for many years -- or excuse me, many days. It's been shut down, there's no capabilities there right now. So, to build that -- even though there's a runway there, to build it up to take planes in and out of there would take a significant amount of combat effort as well as any other airport.

If I can address the intelligence comment that Jim talked about, and Jim made some very good points. You know, when you do course of action analysis in the military, you come up with a most dangerous, most likely, least likely situation.

I think the most dangerous was probably, hey, the government is going to fall very quickly maybe a month. The most likely is it will be three to four months. So, I think what I heard General Milley saying -- and it's a nuanced expression. What he was saying is no one, including no one, expected it to go that fast with the government leaving, with the army fading away even though they have fought well in the past. This came as a surprise to everyone.

They were preparing for this operation and going back to Courtney Kube's I think question was, why didn't you start this earlier, because I think the State Department and the president were told by Ashraf Ghani that if they started it earlier it would cause great panic among the citizens. And I agree with that.

CAMEROTA: Friends, thank you all for your expertise on this. We really appreciate you giving us your perspective.

OK, shifting gears now to coronavirus. Texas Governor Greg Abbott has tested positive for COVID. And he continues to advocate against mandates.

BLACKWELL: Up next we'll talk with a doctor there in Texas who says his hospital's intensive care unit looks like a war zone.

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CAMEROTA: Texas Governor, Republican Greg Abbott, who's been publicly advocating against mask mandates, now has COVID-19 himself. Here he was on Monday attending a large event indoors, as you can see, he was maskless, despite the large crowd.

BLACKWELL: Now Abbott is vaccinated. He says he's not experiencing symptoms. That's common with some breakthrough infections. But a lot of Texans don't have that protection. Just 45 percent of the state is vaccinated.

Today one of the Texas' biggest hospitals, Houston Medical Center, is seeing the most COVID hospitalizations it has seen since last summer.

My next guest says that his intensive care unit looks like a war zone. Dr. George Williams is an ICU physician at UTHealth in Houston. Doctor, thanks for your time. Tell us what you mean by that, that your hospital looks like a war zone.

DR. GEORGE WILLIAMS, ICU PHYSICIAN, UTHEALTH HOUSTON & LBJ HOSPITAL: Well, first of all, thank you very much for having me. When I say it looks like a war zone, it's a place, an intensive care unit where we see a great deal of suffering and death and prolonged illness with people trying to stay alive.

It's very, very hard to watch. It's certainly draining on our staff to care for patients under those circumstances, particularly when they can tell what's going on when the patients are alert and they can see that their ability to breathe is diminishing over time. It's really like watching enormous suffering and an atrocity in progress.

BLACKWELL: Because they have awareness of just how bad their situation is getting.

Listen, we've been covering this for 18 months now, and the descriptions you give about what's happened there in ICUs, some things I've not heard before. And you say that if the public had an understanding, a broader understanding of this, there would be far less acceptance of these conspiracy theories.

WILLIAMS: You're absolutely right. If someone could actually witness the people and the way they're suffering with their own eyes, I am very, very confident that the conspiracy theories, the hesitancy to try to take preventive measures like vaccination and wearing a mask would melt away because someone would easily say, I really don't want that terrible thing to happen to me.

BLACKWELL: You've described needles in necks. Without being too gory, what are some of the things that you're seeing as Delta is spreading?

WILLIAMS: Well, the toughest part about the Delta variant is that it makes patients sicker so much quicker than the previous variants that we took care of. And so, when patients get very sick, we had to perform invasive procedures on them. We have to put in special catheters that involve using needles that go into a neck or into other parts of the body so that we can give them medications to keep their heart going, to keep their blood pressure stable, and to do things like administer emergency dialysis to them.

And then of course we have to put in breathing tubes, we have to put in tubes as necessary in other parts of the body to make sure care continues. It's really something that is very, very uncomfortable and no reasonable person would take those things lightly.

BLACKWELL: At the top we talked about Texas Governor Greg Abbott who has tested positive for COVID. He is vaccinated. He's receiving monoclonal antibody treatment.

We know that some politicians, after suffering through or dealing with COVID, it changes their perspective about mitigation measures after former Governor Christie was COVID positive, was hospitalized, he came out and was a proponent for masks. Are you expecting that type of advocacy from the governor?

WILLIAMS: Well, first of all, we are hoping and praying for the governor's swift recovery from his infection. And it'll still be seen if there is a change in policy per say. But the governor has said repeatedly that we all have a personal choice and we all have the capability to get vaccinated to wear a mask is one of the -- and also of course social distancing, washing our hands and sanitizing the surfaces. Those are things that all of us can do regardless of our economic status, regardless of what state we live in. And that's very important to keep in mind.

BLACKWELL: All right, Lee's got a phone call.

Dr. George Williams, thank you so much for spending some time with us. And thank you for the work you're doing there at UT Houston.

WILLIAMS: Thank you so much for having me.

CAMEROTA: They're busy it never ends, as we could hear.

BLACKWELL: Yes, indeed.

You know, he was talking about in this story that I read out of Houston that if people could just see, if we could get more cameras into these ICUs, they would not be willing to accept some of these lies and conspiracy theories.

CAMEROTA: Oh, absolutely. And our Miguel Marquez has done a wonderful job of doing that and showing it to our viewers. But our viewers are not necessarily the people who need to see it the most.

BLACKWELL: Yes. THE LEAD with Jake Tapper starts now.

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