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Afghans Worry As Taliban Regime Takes Shape; Haitians Left Homeless As Storm Hits Earthquake Region; Around 1000 Americans Evacuated On Tuesday; Interview with Associate Director of Women's Rights Division, Human Rights Watch Heather Barr. Aired 2-3a ET
Aired August 18, 2021 - 02:00 ET
THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.
[02:00:07]
ROSEMARY CHURCH, CNN INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello and welcome to our viewers joining us from all around the world. You are watching CNN NEWSROOM. And I'm Rosemary Church. Just ahead the Taliban tighten their control in Kabul and around Afghanistan as thousands flee and while others are left to watch and worry about the future. A CNN exclusive, former U.S. Defense Secretary Mark Esper weighs in on the decision to leave Afghanistan saying Biden needs to own up to what he calls the catastrophe there.
And devastation, earthquake struck Haiti, gets lashed by tropical storm making rescues even harder.
Good to have you with us. It is 10:30 in the morning in Kabul, where Afghans are facing a third full day of Taliban rule. The militants have brought back a senior leader who may become Afghanistan's new president, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar was cheered as he arrived at the Kandahar Airport Tuesday after a 20-year exile. He was one of the Taliban's core members when they ruled with an iron fist two decades ago.
He took part in peace talks with the United States, but his presence doesn't bode well for Afghans hoping to avoid a return to brutal Islamist law. Heavily-armed Taliban fighters are out in force. And for some their presence means law and order on the streets. But women and religious minorities are especially concerned about what will come next. There are reports several female journalists have been threatened.
Even as a Taliban spokesman has said there will be no violence against women. Still, the militants are trying to sell Taliban 2.0 promising a lighter version of their historically strict and brutal rule. They even held a news conference Tuesday promising mercy for their enemies.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZABIHULLAH MUJAHID, TALIBAN SPOKESMAN (through translator): We don't want Afghanistan to be a battlefield. Today the fighting is over. Whoever was against the opposition has been given blanket amnesty. The fighting should not be repeated.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: Now despite those promises, thousands of Afghans are still trying desperately to flee the country while crowds inside the Kabul Airport have thinned since the chaos we saw on Monday. It's a far different story outside where the Taliban now control the entrances as throngs of people clamor to get inside. CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is there.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Around Kabul Airport lives spared or spoiled. One gate, I was caught in the crush, shots in the air. Afghan soldiers let us in through a hole in the fence. Inside a few lucky Afghans still with steps to go and sleepless U.S. Marines. Some not born before 9/11 whose first glimpse of Afghanistan here was the same as so many before them.
Except this time, they were truly encircled by calm Taliban just outside and they were leaving. The detritus of 20 years of trying was everywhere, vehicles that may be left behind. And then the Afghans who won't be. We're blurring their faces to protect them. Lucky enough to get on a flight, but not as huge in number as those who would swamp the airfield the days before.
(on camera): It's absolutely breathtaking to see the scale of operation of underway here and the volume of people relieved to be inside but still, the chaos turn.
(Voice-over): Flights picked up this evening fell, urgency, but a strange disconnect to the chaos that was swirling around the airport. People inside the airport simply did not know what was happening outside. And inside, they were headed in one direction. At airport security the country's new rulers were giving their first press conference on a T.V. but surely show all four of the U.S. presidents who've been a war here.
They sit and wait to be called to a new life in a land of plenty. Where they will land with only what they can carry. Nick Paton Walsh, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
CHURCH: And CNNs Anna Coren has reported from Afghanistan for years including on a recent trip there and she's with us now live from Hong Kong for the latest on the Taliban takeover.
[02:05:02]
CHURCH: So Anna, what is the latest on the evacuation efforts at the airport and the outlook for the next few days and weeks there?
ANNA COREN, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We understand that the airport as it stands at the moment is secure that flights are operating in and out. I spoke to some local Afghan journalists who said that they just heard planes constantly through the night, landing and taking off. So, this is obviously a hive of activity as they try to get the thousands of people out. I mean, we're not just talking about embassy members, staff members from the United States and the other countries that have embassies, had had embassies in Afghanistan or in Kabul.
But also the Afghans that have helped these countries in particular, America. So we know that there is a huge backlog of people. But we get a sense that this is far more orderly. Although President Biden has said the deadline is still the 31st of August, which Rosemary does not give a lot of time to get the tens of thousands of people out who just really need to.
CHURCH: When you do the math, it's hard to figure out how they will achieve that. So, what more are you learning about how the Afghan people are responding to new assurances from the Taliban leadership that things will be different this time, particularly for women?
COREN: Yes, it's interesting, Rosemary. Obviously, the Taliban spokesperson gave a press conference and tried to portray this credible, responsible, modernized Taliban. People are extremely wary. He was saying all the right things. Women can go to work, women can, you know, live the way that they lived within the Sharia law framework. That is where the alarm bells went off. People were sort of thinking there is a rather vague, you know, statement.
Because what does that mean? How will that be interpreted? But I think really, the telling sign, Rosemary, as to how ambiguous this all is, is when he was asked, has the Taliban changed from the 90s to today? And he answered that if this question is based on thoughts, ideology, beliefs, then there is no difference. We have the same beliefs. And this is what is frightening because we know how women were treated from 1996 to 2001 when the Taliban reign.
We know the atrocities committed. We know what the Taliban were doing and their interpretation of this very harsh version of Sharia law. Now, Rosemary, I just got off the phone from a woman who is in Kabul, she's been working with a U.S. Agency. She's an Afghan, she's doing her MBA. She is hoping to get out of there. But she said we are waking up with his nightmare every single day that her heart bleeds for her homeland.
But she said every time there is a knock at the door, she is terrified that it is the Taliban, searching for them. I mean, you're talking about educated people who are hurt or at least have been targeted by the Taliban in the past. So, you know, she is one of the thousands desperate to get out of the country.
CHURCH: Yes, it is a terrifying time for Afghan women in particular. Anna Coren, many thanks for joining us. Appreciate it.
Well, thousands of Afghans who helped the U.S. and its allies during two decades of war, are afraid of Taliban reprisals. Clarissa Ward is on the ground in Kabul. And she spoke with Pentagon Spokesman John Kirby about what assurances the U.S. will give to Afghans about getting out of their country.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I just wanted to
ask you, because obviously, I'm the one who's here on the ground talking to Afghans every day, who works with the U.S. military, who works with the U.S. Embassy, who works with American NGOs or journalistic organizations. I'm the one who has to look them in the eye. Can I offer them your assurance that everyone who has worked with American organizations will be -- got out of this country safely?
JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: Clarissa, first of all, thanks for your incredibly brave reporting and the -- and the images and the stories that you're telling. We're all grateful. And we all know how hard and how dangerous that work is. I would ask you to tell them that there is a process that they can apply for through the State Department to get onto the list and get onto the manifest.
And I would ask them to work with State Department authorities there in Kabul to do that. And if they -- if they are through that process, I can assure them and you can assure them on our behalf that we in the Pentagon will do everything we can to help get them out of the country over the next couple of weeks. That's what we're flowing in extra aircraft for. That's why we're flowing in extra troops to maintain security at that airport so that we can do that.
[02:10:11]
KIRBY: And I would also say, over the last, you know, since 2005, we've moved 70,000 of these individuals, we know we have an obligation to them.
WARD: To most Afghan people that I'm talking to, John, that's going to sound like hollow promises. Can I have your word? These people are depending on you, they are depending on America, their lives are a threat, they have given everything to work with America to rebuild this country. And now they are asking simply for an assurance that they will not be cast aside, they will not be abandoned, that America will step up and take responsibility for the lives that are in its care at the moment.
KIRBY: Clarissa, there's nothing hollow, about the obligation that we know we have to these Afghans who so bravely helped us over the last 20 years. Believe me, nobody and the United States government more than the Pentagon understands that obligation to these individuals. And as I said before, we will continue to do whatever we can to help them get out of the country, in concert with our State Department colleagues.
We are absolutely committed to that. And we're going to stay and we're going to do it as -- for as long as we possibly can up until the end of the month. Certainly, that's when the mission ends, we're going to continue to work on that very, very hard. That's why we're continuing to flow in more forces, why we're continuing to flow in more aircraft.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: With us now is CNN Military Analyst and former NATO Supreme Allied Commander General Wesley Clark. Thank you, sir, for joining us. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Thank you. Good to be here.
CHURCH: So the mission right now is to evacuate Americans and Afghans who helped the U.S., but there's still a crush of people outside the airport trying to get in with so many thousands still to evacuate. Will they all get out in time? And why wasn't this exit conducted earlier? And with better preparation?
CLARK: Well, I think there's good reasons why it wasn't conducted earlier, because if -- once you started this, you would have triggered the very thing that happened. And it would have been our blame for having started this. Now. Will they all get out? Well, first of all, it's not just Americans. There are other nationalities there. And there are Afghans who work with those nationalities also, not just the ones who work with the Americans.
So this really is an international effort to pull out the people who consider themselves and are considered to be most at risk by the Taliban. And so there are many, many thousands trying to get in, they've got to be identified, checked in some way, they've got to have visas to go somewhere. And they've got to have airplane. Tickets, commercial or they've got to be on somebody's list to get a military flight.
CHURCH: And the Biden administration have set themselves a deadline for the end of August. Can it be done?
CLARK: It's possible mechanically, that you could get the aircraft there. And if you could pull out 9000 a day, and you've got another 10, 12 days you bring out 100 -- over 100,000. That seems like that's all I'm getting calls from people as you probably are too and other people before going out. Every which way they're driving to (INAUDIBLE) and they're trying to get out to Pakistan. They're going over the border, they're paying bribes.
There's a -- there's a real sense of foreboding about this. No matter what the -- what the Taliban say. No one expects it to last. This is like a 90 percent, 10 percent, 90 percent they'll go back to Sharia law. They'll seek revenge. They'll replace the people who work so hard and the government, they'll put their own people in and they'll do Sharia justice.
CHURCH: Well, critics suggest the generals at the Pentagon never fully revealed just how fragile the Afghan army really was, a point made evident, of course, when Afghan troops offered little to no resistance to the Taliban. Was this an intelligence failure or was the Intel there that ignored?
CLARK: Well, we'll have to see. I'm sure there's going to be a deep investigation into this. This is a hot political topic in Washington. It's one -- those sorts of the military used to call a circular firing squad. Everybody's going to be after everybody else. You can already see that the shreds of this coming out. What did the intelligence say? What did the President walk on? Et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.
But the truth is that these people in Afghanistan had been through this before. It's a country that's been at war for 40 years. People signed up with the Afghan military to make money. They fire their weapons. Did they want to die in service of the Afghan military?
[02:15:08]
CLARK: Remember, Afghanistan is not our conventional nation. It's really tribal. And so they were -- they were earning a paycheck. Some of them didn't even get that paycheck. But they did not sign up to fight to the death, for most -- in the most part. They just didn't do it. And so when it looked like the tide had shifted, that the Taliban were coming in, sure. This is an old Afghan trick. They go with the winners or at least they run away from the losers.
And that's why it happens so quickly. Now, whether that could have been anticipated or not, we'll just have to wait and see.
CHURCH: The Taliban say they have evolved from being a fighting force to a government that will bring stability to Afghanistan and a blanket amnesty to citizens who previously worked for the U.S. and they're committing to allow safe passage to those trying to leave the country. Do you believe any of this?
CLARK: Well, I think they certainly said that. And just actions speak louder than words. They've got a long track record of doing the opposite. And so, for the people that Afghanistan, I think that's your best indicator, they don't trust it. For the world outside we'll have to wait and see.
CHURCH: General Wesley Clark, thank you so much for joining us.
CLARK: Thank you.
CHURCH: And we will have more from General Clark next hour. So do stay with us for that. Still to come this hour. European leaders are worried the chaos in Afghanistan will result in another migrant crisis. Their plans to prevent that from happening. That's ahead.
And fear setting in for Afghan women as they face an uncertain future under Taliban rule. How human rights groups are responding. We'll be back in a moment.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHURCH: After Afghanistan failed to the Taliban, it's believed the U.S. President did not talk with any allied leaders for days. But he and the British Prime Minister did speak on Tuesday. Boris Johnson is calling for a virtual meeting of the G7 leaders in the coming days to discuss Afghanistan and get the international community on the same page. The British government is also launching a plan to resettle Afghans facing persecution from the Taliban with the priority on women and girls.
Up to 5000 will be welcomed to the U.K. initially with a goal of up to 20,000 in the long term. NATO Secretary General is calling for a peaceful transfer power in Afghanistan with a government that respects the rights of all Afghan people. [02:20:05]
CHURCH: In a news conference Tuesday, Jens Stoltenberg also criticized failures in Afghan leadership which led to the Taliban's takeover.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JENS STOLTENBERG, NATO SECRETARY GENERAL: Ultimately, the Afghan political leadership failed to stand up to the Taliban and to achieve the peaceful solution that Afghans desperately wanted. This failure of African Leadership led to the tragedy we are witnessing today.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: The European Union's foreign affairs chief has been in touch with his NATO counterparts to discuss evacuations in Afghanistan. The E.U. says its top priority is getting nationals and people working for the E.U. out of the country. And that's going to involve engaging with the Taliban. CNN's Salma Abdelaziz has more on the E.U.'s emergency meeting on Tuesday.
SALMA ABDELAZIZ, CNN REPORTER: Foreign Affairs ministers for the E.U. member states held an emergency session. An extraordinary meeting to discuss the situation in Afghanistan. Afterwards, the E.U. foreign affairs Chief Joseph Burrell held a press conference to update journalists. He says for right now, there are three key priorities for E.U. member states. The first is of course, evacuations getting any E.U. nationals out of the -- out of Afghanistan to safety.
Getting any E.U. staff out to safety as well. But Mr. Burrell saying his biggest concern is actually Afghan nationals who've worked with E.U.'s institutions over the last two decades, but remain trapped back in Afghanistan. He says there's about 400 people that fall under this category. It is staff and their families. He says we cannot abandon them now and ensure that the E.U. is doing everything it can to get those 400 Afghan nationals into the E.U. into safety as soon as possible.
The second matter of concern for E.U. member states is that this Afghanistan chaos could cause a huge refugee crisis. This is something E.U. saw with the Syrian civil war. It does not want those nightmare scenarios of people making that desperate crossing across the sea to European shores yet again, that lead to point three with the E.U. foreign affairs chief saying, practically speaking we are going to have to engage in talks with the Taliban
He says the Taliban have won, they're in control of Kabul, that is the reality. Those are the facts on the ground. E.U. officials will be engaging with Taliban officials inside Kabul to ensure those evacuations take place, take control of the humanitarian situation and the refugee situation. But again, the E.U. emphasizing that this is by no means an acknowledgement of the legitimacy of the Taliban's rule in Afghanistan. Salma Abdelaziz, CNN, London.
CHURCH: Pakistan has long been a safe haven for the Afghan Taliban. But Islamabad says it will not recognize Afghanistan's new regime before consulting with regional and international powers. Sophia Saifi is in Islamabad. She joins us now live. Good to see you, Sophia. So, what more are you learning about this apparent new approach by Pakistan and Prime Minister Imran Khan's call with his U.K. counterpart Boris Johnson?
SOPHIA SAIFI, CNN PRODUCER: Hi, Rosemary. So what's interesting is is that according to Pakistani leaders that I spoke to you like top officials of the Pakistani government, they've been saying, even talking a lot about China. They've been talking a lot about how they want even before Kabul fell. In the weeks leading up to what happened over this past weekend, they were talking a lot about how important it is for stability in Central Asia, a stability in Afghanistan about China's One Belt, One Road Project.
And the investments that have been made in Pakistan and the desire that there is stability in Afghanistan for the roads and the infrastructure that exists in Pakistan now to connect Central Asia to Pakistan's deep sea ports in the south. So there's a lot of conversation about economic stability. There's also been -- I mean, Pakistan was very critical of the United States leading up to just day before yesterday because until Friday, for example, when I spoke to the national security adviser, Moeed Yusuf, he said that it was unfair the way the U.S. had expectations on Pakistan to do more with the (INAUDIBLE) Taliban or the fact that they were leaving the way that they were.
About the withdrawal of U.S. troops and how that had played out. But on Monday night, we saw a statement come out saying that Pakistan is -- that it's a logical decision, the one that President Biden has made. So, you know, Pakistan is working quite closely with not just China and the U.S. or even the U.K., but also the UAE and Saudi Arabia. So we'll just have to wait and see how things developed at this very volatile, volatile time in the region, Rosemary?
CHURCH: All right. Sophia Saifi joining us live from Islamabad. Many thanks. Well, coming up. Fear and uncertainty of gripping Afghanistan's capital.
[02:25:04]
CHURCH: The Taliban have been in charge only for a few days but women there are lying low and worried about their future? Plus, the situation at Kabul Airport has calmed down somewhat after the chaotic scenes we saw on Monday. But the rush to get Americans and allies out of Afghanistan has hardly slowed down. We'll have the details for you after the short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
CHURCH: In their first news conference since taking control in Afghanistan, the Taliban made promises intended to ease widespread concerns, including blanket amnesty for all Afghans. But their pledges are being met with skepticism and many are not waiting to see if the group's promises will be kept. Those desperate to flee the country remain at the Kabul Airport in hopes of finding a way out. The White House says the Taliban have promised safe passage for civilians looking to leave amid reports of beatings for some who tried to bypass Taliban checkpoints near the airport. The White House also address the criticism facing President Joe Biden and his administration's handling of the U.S. withdrawal.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JAKE SULLIVAN, U.S. NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: He's taking responsibility for every decision the United States government took with respect to Afghanistan because as he said the buck stops with him. I am also taking responsibility and so are my colleagues.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: Even as the U.S. rushes to evacuate Americans and Afghan allies, the sheer scale of the operation is hard to imagine. But this image might give you some sense of the situation. More than 600 people packed onboard and American military cargo plane. Officials told Defense One, the refugees clambered over a half open ramp and the crew made the decision to keep them on board.
Defense One also obtained audio of the air traffic controllers side of the conversation with the pilot. Just take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. How many people do you think are on your jet? 800 people on your jet? Holy cow.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: Well, that 800 number was an over estimate of course. Still it drives home just how many people are trying to flee the country. And CNN's Oren Lieberman reports the U.S. is facing a tight deadline to get them out.
OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN JERUSALEM CORRESPONDENT: Kabul's International Airport is in a more secure, stable situation than it was 24 or 48 hours ago but the U.S. tight deadline to get them out.
[02:30:00]
LIEBERMANN: Kabul's International Airport is in a more secure stable situation than it was 24 or 48 hours ago. But the U.S. is still unable to move about 5,000 to 9,000 people a day out of the airport, that's what the Pentagon is trying to hit with cargo aircraft moving people out of the country. But that number is still very far away from it.
In fact, according to an update from the State Department, the U.S. moved about 1,000 people out of the Kabul International Airport on Tuesday, including 300 or so Americans. That brings the total number of people moved over the last few days to some 3,000. But that number is well short of what it will have to be on a daily basis to really start getting U.S. citizens, as well as Afghan interpreters and their families, out of the country. The potential number that have to be moved, tens of thousands. And that right now seems like a daunting task, although that's an effort the U.S Pentagon hopes to hit, the ability to move thousands a day in the coming days.
Meanwhile, national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, says the U.S. has assurances from the Taliban that U.S. citizens will have free passage to be able get to the Kabul's international airport. That key piece of real estate is the entry point for U.S. troops securing the airport as well as the exit point for all those trying to evacuate the airport. The challenge here, not all of those citizens, not all of the U.S. citizens that America is trying to evacuate are in Kabul. And travel throughout the rest of country incredibly difficult, if not impossible.
The logistically difficulties, the challenges ahead, many it seems have still not been solved. At this point, as the hours tick away the effort to get everybody out still aiming for an August 31st deadline and is approaching very quickly. Oren
Liebermann, CNN, in the Pentagon.
CHURCH: Malala Yousafzai knows all too well the fears many Afghan women and girls are facing after the Taliban takeover. The Nobel Peace Prize Laureate was shot by Taliban gunman back in 2012 because she campaigned for the right of girls to go to school. Now, she is sounding the alarm about the dangers of Afghanistan returning to Taliban rule and urging other countries to help Afghan refugees get out while they can.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MALALA YOUSAFZAI, NOBEL PEACE PRIZE LAUREATE: I'm calling on the U.S., the U.K. U.N., and others to urgently commit to substantial relocation and resettlement programs for the protection of those imminently under threat. They need urgent help. And I also request on all the neighboring countries of Afghanistan, including Pakistan, Iran and Turkmenistan to open their borders to Afghan refugees. They safety, they need protection, they have been displaced, and they are looking for a place where they can feel safe.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: And since taking Kabul, Taliban leaders have been insisting the group has changed. They are promising a kinder, gentler government than the one that ruled 20 years ago. But as CNN's Sam Kiley reports, many Afghans remain deeply skeptical that the militants will stay true to their word or even capable of it.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): Promises --
SUHAL SHAHEEN, Taliban spokesperson: We would have a new government, an Afghan inclusive Islamic government.
KILEY (voiceover): Promises -- SHAHEEN: Women can continue their education from primary to higher
education.
KILEY (voiceover): Promises.
SHAHEEN: We do not want to monopoly of power.
KILEY (voiceover): Taliban 2.0. More moderate, inclusive, power sharing? From 1996 to 2001, the ultraconservative Islamist imposed a form of Islam that stoned homosexuals and shut female schools, as it took over much of Afghanistan.
Women bore the brunt of this medieval ideology. The movement was toppled by NATO and Afghan ally's intent on ending Taliban rule and the safe haven that it gave to Al-Qaeda's plots against Americas on 9/11. Al-Qaeda was routed, feeling NATO into scattered exile.
For the next 20 years, the Taliban fought back, taking territory slowly and refining its public relations. Less efforts on oppressing women, more effort on building trust and local administrations. But millions of Afghans, especially in the cities, we're encouraged to believe in the freedoms and democracy stamped out by the Taliban. So, when they swept back into the capital, fear took hold.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So, if they have changed, why are they stopping women from going to work? Why are they murdering artists?
FARZANA KOCHAI, AFGHAN MEMBER OF PARLIAMENT: Do I have a space here to work for my people and my country or not? So, we are risking our lives just for this answer.
[02:35:00]
KILEY (voiceover): At the Taliban press conference in Kabul, its spokesman insisted that the movement had matured. But he insisted that all human rights, freedoms and especially the role of women would still be determined by Sharia law.
To succeeding government, the Taliban may have little choice in the face of real politics. It will also need help from the International Community. It has been burnishing its diplomatic credentials. Here, the leader, Mullah Abdul Ghani Baradar, sealing a deal with the U.S. that is now widely derided for shepherding the Taliban to victory. But the movement has clearly signaled that it needs to govern rather than rule by force. The question is whether that is something the Taliban can or even wants to do.
Sam Kiley, CNN, London.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: Well even as the Taliban promised to uphold women's rights, they say women's standing and activities in society come with a caveat. A member of the group's cultural commission said their rights will be "within the framework of Islamic Sharia, taking into consideration national and Afghan values in order to set the conditions for work in education, and setting the conditions for the presence of all human sectors." Well, so many Afghan women are skeptical about just what that will mean, saying, they fear that two decades of progress may soon be wiped away.
CNN's Clarissa Ward spoke with one woman in hiding in Kabul who wanted to remain anonymous. And she says she is afraid for her life after working with international organizations.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm not angry, but as a person who worked with them, now I need your support. It is not fair.
CLARISSA WARD, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: You look very emotional as well.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes, because I'm thinking about my future, my daughters, what will happen to them if they kill me? Two daughters without a mother?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CHURCH: Heather Barr is the associate director of the Women's Rights Division at Human Rights Watch. And she joins me now via Skype from Islamabad, Pakistan.
Thank you so much for talking with us.
HEATHER BARR, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, WOMEN'S RIGHTS DIVISION, HUMAN RIGHTS WATCH: Yes.
CHURCH: So, understandably, many Afghan women don't believe these assurances from the Taliban that they have evolved and will uphold women's rights, with this qualification that they will come "within the framework of Islamic Sharia." What does that mean, exactly?
BARR: Well, presumably, the Taliban in 2001 believe that everything they were doing was in line with Sharia. Their interpretation of Sharia is way outside the mainstream, very fringe. And women have no reason to trust them, because this is not just about how they were treating within 20 years ago. It's about how they were treating women last week. Because as they have gained control of more parts of the country, they very have often implemented policies that are indistinguishable from how they treated women and girls in 2001.
And even in the last few weeks, as they've swept spread across the country, there have been plenty of incidents of them closing schools, pushing women and girls out of university, telling women they can't be employed anymore and telling women that they can't even leave the house without a male family member escorting them. So, there is no reason to trust them until they demonstrate on the grounds that their behavior has changed across the entire country.
CHURCH: What are Afghan women telling you about their fears and concerns about life under the Taliban? What can your organization do? BARR: They are absolutely terrified. You know, it's -- I think this is particularly devastating for the generation that grew up in the last 20 years, who grew up hearing stories about the Taliban from their mothers and grandmothers and aunts and saw this as a dark nightmare in their countries past, that they were lucky enough to have escaped. And now, they're seeing, you know, the education, the career that they fought so hard for just disappearing overnight.
In terms of what my organization can do, we are feeling helpless and devastated. You know, we're trying our best to try to help women and other human rights activists to escape the country. But that is extremely difficult for reasons that you described a moment ago. We are trying to, you know, watch what is happening, but that is very difficult with so many of our allies having fled the country or in hiding or afraid to talk.
So, I mean, this is one way that the Taliban can prove that they have changed, just to actually allow human rights organizations, Afghan and intentional, to have access to the country and to see what's going on. Because right now, we are hearing plenty from people in the country but feeling so frustrated that they cannot do more to help.
[02:40:00]
CHURCH: And what do you think the future holds for these women? And what will likely happen to those women who are educated and have careers at the moment?
BARR: It is an incredibly dark picture. And I think the most important thing is that the International Community can't sort of shrug and say, oh, shame about that, and walk away. I think that the International Community has an enormous responsibility to Afghan women.
You'll recall in 2001, in the days after 9/11, the plight of women in Afghanistan was used to convince people, taxpayers, voters, in the U.S. and every other country that sent troops that this was a righteous was, that this was a war to protect women. And it is really shocking to me the way that, in this moment, as there has been this abrupt withdrawal led by the U.S., that seems to have been completely forgotten. There does not seem to have been any planning for how to get high-profile women, women's rights activists out of the country in advance of the announcement of the withdrawal.
But there are stills things that the International Community can do. They can, first of all do, you know, everything that they can to help anyone who feels that they need to escape Afghanistan to be able to do so via the airport, via land borders, et cetera. And then they have got to figure out how to put pressure on the Taliban to respect human rights, particularly the rights of women and girls. And how to do that in a way that doesn't involve cutting off aid and further devastating what's already a terrible humanitarian situation.
CHURCH: Heather Barr, thank you so much for talking with us, we appreciate it.
BARR: Thank you.
CHURCH: Well, the death toll is climbing in Haiti after Saturday's massive earthquake rocked the southern part of the island nation. And now, heavy rain from Tropical Storm Grace is complicating search and rescue efforts. We're back with that in just a moment.
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CHURCH: Welcome back, everyone.
Well, Hurricane Watch is in effect for Mexico's Yucatan peninsula and parts of the Caribbean right now as Tropical Storm Grace pushes through the region. The U.S. National Hurricane Center says the storm is expected to strengthen into a hurricane on Wednesday ahead of a possible landfall just south of Cancun. And this comes after Grace brought heavy rain Tuesday to Jamaica, Cuba, and Haiti. And that heavy rain in Haiti is, of course, further complicating search and relief efforts for quake victims.
CNN's Joe Johns has that part of the story.
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JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT (voiceover): The wind howled and the rain poured as a Tropical Depression Grace rolled ashore in Haiti. Shell-shocked and weary earthquake survivors took refuge where they could, some are lucky enough to have a roof over their heads, but most with their homes destroyed or too badly damaged, doing what they could to protect themselves with makeshift tents and tarps as the deluge of rain kept coming.
THEARD ANDRISE, HOMELESS AFTER EARTHQUAKE (through translator): The rainfall on top of us, we slept sitting down on chairs, nobody has come to help us. We sleep here sitting down. I don't want to go home. I'm in God's hands.
JOHNS (voiceover): Many of the survivors dealing with injuries as they struggle to cope, waiting for aid. That aid is pouring into the capital, Port-au-Prince, but getting it out to the hard-hit areas on the South Coast to those in need is taking time, leading to frustration.
MARIMENE JOUESI, HOMELESS AFTER EARTHQUAKE (through translator): I am in a lot of pain. We've been promised medicine. I went to look for it and I was told to wait. Yesterday, they distributed aid but I wasn't able to get anything. It rained a lot at night. We could not sleep. We have nothing to eat. We have nothing.
JOHNS (voiceover): Still, some progress being made. The U.S. Coast Guard among those agencies already on the ground.
VILLA RODRIGUEZ, U.S. COAST GUARD (through translator): In the past 24 hours, the Coast Guard has rescued 38 lives, and transported 5,500 pounds of aid, medical equipment among others, for the affected areas in Haiti. We have transported 56 passengers and medical personnel to attend those affected areas.
JOHNS (voiceover): It's been four days since the 7.2 earthquake struck, flattening homes and toppling hotels and businesses, killing more than 1,900 people, and injuring thousands more. UNICEF estimates close to 1.2 million people have been affected by the quake, including more than 500,000 children. The scope of that devastation and desperation becoming more painfully clear with each passing day.
Joe Johns, CNN, Port-au-Prince, Haiti.
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CHURCH: Hong Kong scrapping a plan that shortened quarantine for some visitors. The government says quarantine length will now be 14 or 21 days, depending on where they are coming from and their vaccination status.
Previously, vaccinated travelers who met specific criteria could have their hotel quarantine shortened to seven days. But officials say that's no longer the case due to the increased risk posed by the Delta variant.
And still ahead here on CNN, an exclusive former defense secretary, Mark Esper, calls President Biden's Afghanistan plan a catastrophe. Back with that in just a moment.
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CHURCH: Well, Former U.S. defense secretary, Mark Esper, is sharply critical of how the current White House has handled the situation in Afghanistan. But he also believes his old boss, Former President Donald Trump, could be partly to blame for the Taliban's resurgence. Esper spoke exclusively with CNN's Christiane Amanpour about what he believes has led to the chaos in Afghanistan.
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MARK ESPER, FORMER U.S. SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: Of course, there were more options between the two binary choices presented by the president. Just better planning and extending the timeline and taking a more thoughtful approach and not relying on simple assumptions would have prevented this disastrous outcome that we are seeing unfolding behind us right now before us right now. It's a humanitarian crisis that I fear is only going to grow worse in the coming days and weeks.
Clearly, the Afghan people deserved better political leadership than what they've had over the past 20 years, and we saw the Afghan soldiers, many of whom fight bravely on the battlefield, with the United States and allied support. But to put this all on them is just shifting the blame. The fact is President Biden owns this. He owns the mess, the catastrophe that's been created over the past several weeks, couple weeks, and should own up to it.
And really, at this point, we have to remedy this situation. We have to make sure that the airfield is secured, which I understand it is, but now, we have to think about how do we go out and identify, locate, and help bring back the up to 15,000 Americans who are in country, the State Department and other U.S. government employees? We have to think about how do we bring back our Afghan partners? Many who risked their lives over the past two decades to help the United States and its allies.
So, the president could cut through this paperwork, bring these folks out of the country and take them to another third country, take them to Guam, wherever, but we need to take care of them. And then, we should think about how do we organize an international effort to really put the pressure on the Taliban team mitigate this emerging humanitarian crisis.
And then, finally, I would be remiss if I didn't say we really need the Kabul back together. Our best intelligence assets and resources to make sure we know what's happening on the ground in Afghanistan so it doesn't, once again, become a safe haven for terrorists to attack America. After all, that's the entire reason why we went there in the first place in 2001.
CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CNN CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: This was started under your administration, the president you served. Can you take us into the conversations? Though we are underway, that even imagined that this would result in anything other than what we've seen today?
ESPER: Well, first of all, there are series of United States presidents, certainly beginning with President Obama who want to see America withdraw from Afghanistan. And I think, at the end of the day, that was the right policy objective and remains to be the case, and I said so. Second, just because negotiations began under the Trump administration does not ignore the fact that, again, President Biden owns the situation implementation of his withdrawal that we now see unfolding before us.
With that said, you know, the Trump administration signed an agreement with the Taliban in February of 2020. It was a political agreement. It was based on a premise that I and many others inside and outside the government shared, and that was that the only way forward was going to be a political agreement. Not a military solution imposed by the United States and Afghan government, but able to political solution. And the Taliban signed up to that. We agreed to make reductions in our forces. At the same time, they committed to not allow, as you mentioned earlier, Afghanistan to become a safe haven for terrorists to attack the United States. They made some other commitments as well.
And I was very clear at the time that this agreement had to be conditions-based. In other words, both sides needed to meet their ends of the agreement. Now, the good news for the United States military is we were planning reductions anyway. So, at the time, we were above 13,000 troops. We had planned to go down to around 8,600 or so by the summer. And so, with those caveats and conditions of mine, we proceeded.
I thought that despite it not being I being not a perfect deal or a great deal, it was a good enough deal. And we actually had Afghans, later in the summer, talking to one another, which I thought was an achievement. My concern was that President Trump, by continuing to want to withdraw American forces out of Afghanistan undermined the agreement, which is why in the fall, when he was calling for a return of U.S. forces by Christmas, I objected and formally wrote a letter to him, a memo based on recommendations from the military chain of command and my senior civilian leadership that we not go further, that would not reduce before 4,500 troops unless and until conditions were met by the Taliban.
Otherwise, we would see a number of things play out, which are unfolding right now in many ways. That, of course, was just a few weeks or a week or so before I left office. But that's the state of play. Now, that said, President Biden coming into office, he was not necessarily bound to continue the Trump plan, he was not necessarily bound to implement the political agreement. He could've taken, as he did, a completely -- or a different path. He could have tried to go back to the table with the Taliban and renegotiate.
[02:55:00]
He could've demanded, as I argued, that they agree to the conditions they establish or that they agreed to in the agreement and that we use military power to compel them to do that. So, that gets back to your first question. I think there were more options available to President Biden and his administration than simply continuing the withdrawal of U.S. forces and doing it in such a precipitous and such a poorly planned way that we now see this crisis right before our eyes.
AMANPOUR: I'm going to get further down into the military miscalculations in a bit. But first, I want to continue to ask you about the president that you serve, because this is relevant. Do you believe that President Trump had a full understanding of what actually all is meant, you know, in the field? That he -- you know, you know, that the peace negotiations, and you've said it, were with the Taliban, cut out the Afghan government for the first part, and basically, you know, just with the Taliban, undermining the Afghan government.
You also, you know -- do you believe that Trump had an understanding of actually what was going on and do you think or do you know whether there were any election considerations in terms of his desire to pull U.S. forces out even more rapidly?
ESPER: Look, I'll just speak to myself, and DOD and I will tell you that we were very clear eyed about what we could do, about the credibility of the agreement, about our trust in it, and about what would happen or not happen as we looked ahead.
So, I think we had a very sober assessment of the situation. We -- again, I was conceived at a conditioned-based process was the way forward and also believed, at the same time, that a political solution was the only way ahead, which is why I supported the agreement that we set forth.
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CHURCH: And thank you so much for watching this hour of CNN Newsroom. I'm Rosemary Church. I'll be back with more news in just a moment.
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