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Biden Defiant on Afghanistan Withdrawal Chaos; Police Respond to Suspected Explosives in Truck Near U.S Capitol; Democrats Ramp Up Oversight over Biden's Afghan Withdrawal. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired August 19, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: A very good Thursday morning. I'm Jim Sciutto.

POPPY HARLOW, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Poppy Harlow.

This morning, President Biden is standing firm despite the chaos in the streets of Kabul. The Taliban strengthening their grip while thousands are holding out hope, stuck outside of the walls of Kabul's airport waiting with no guarantee that will even be able to be safely evacuated.

In a new interview, the president is defending his call to pull off troops from Afghanistan. Listen.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS HOST: You don't think this could have been handled -- this exit could have been handled better in any way, no mistakes?

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: No, I don't think it could have been handled in a way that -- we're going to go back in hindsight and look. But the idea that somehow there's a way to have gotten out without chaos ensuing, I don't know how that happens. I don't know how that happened.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So, for you, that was always priced into the decision?

BIDEN: Yes. Now, exactly what happened I was not priced in but I knew that they're going to have an enormous amount of -- look, one of the things we didn't know is what the Taliban would do in terms of trying to keep people from getting out, what they would do.

STEPHANOPOULOS: All troops are supposed to be out by August 31st. Even if Americans and our Afghan allies are still trying to get out, they're going to leave?

BIDEN: We're going to do everything in our power to get all Americans out and our allies out. STEPHANOPOULOS: Does that mean troops will stay beyond August 31st if necessary?

BIDEN: It depends on where we are and whether we can get -- ramp these numbers up to 5,000 to 7,000 a day coming out. If that's the case, they'll all be out.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Because we have got like 10,000 to 15,000 Americans in the country right now, right? And are you committed to making sure that the troops stay until every American who wants to be out is out?

BIDEN: Yes. Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: How about our Afghan allies? Does the commitment hold for them as well?

BIDEN: The commitment holds to get everyone out that, in fact, we can get out, and everyone should come out, and that is the objective. That is what we're doing now. That is the path we're on. And I think we'll get there.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

SCIUTTO: Well, this hour, we're expecting an update from the Pentagon on all developments out of Afghanistan, including the rate, the pace of evacuations and we will bring that briefing to you live right when it begins. Many moving parts this morning, we are covering it all.

Let's begin with CNN's John Harwood at the White House. John, the president is standing by his decision, defiant and defensive, you might say, at times in this interview. How does the White House believe he is messaging this?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, he is defiant because it is pretty clear that President Biden believes for all of the incoming he's taking, from allies, from Democrats, from Republicans on Capitol Hill, he believe that he's fundamentally correct about his decision. He's acknowledged that the collapse of the Afghan security forces and government occurred much faster than he had anticipated, that Mark Milley had anticipated, and our colleague, Clarissa Ward, said yesterday that she had anticipated that's the case. But having said that, he thinks there is no good time to do it and it was going to be messy in any event.

Secondly, I think President Biden believes and said -- told George Stephanopoulos in the interview that the withdrawal has not failed despite the declarations that it has because they are now ramping up the evacuations, we have not seen a large scale loss of life so far, we have not lost American troops and the test is in front of him, that is can they ramp up to the level, 5,000 to 9,000 a day, that the Pentagon has said they're aiming for and get over the next two weeks the 65,000 or so that the president estimated that they're going to try to get out, American citizens and Afghan allies.

About 6,000 so far, the Pentagon said yesterday they're processing about 500 people an hour at the air base. Big questions as to whether they can get people from the countryside to Kabul. They're doing this at the sufferance of the Taliban. They think they've got some leverage over the Taliban. Very difficult process, but the end of this story has not yet been written. And President Biden is counting on his military troops on the ground, 6,000 that he's getting to Afghanistan, to get this job done over the next couple of weeks.

And as you indicated in the lead-up, he said he would go past August 31st if the process is proceeding and they think they can get more people out.

HARLOW: And, Kylie, to you, what do you know and what is the State Department saying about the president's pledge to keep troops in country past the August 31st deadline? It was clear, I think, from listening to that, whatever it takes to get Americans out, what was less clear, well, if it is September 1st and all of the Americans are out, but our Afghan allies and interpreters aren't all out, will we stay?

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KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, no firm commitment there from the president as to if the U.S. will maintain that troop presence, that military presence at the airport, which is enabling these large scale evacuations if these Afghans aren't out in large numbers, right?

And that is key, because what we're watching from our reporters on ground is that folks who appear to be western, who are American, who are heading to the airport, are getting through these Taliban checkpoints. Those who aren't getting through, those who are facing these attacks by the Taliban, maybe not deathly but very violent, are able to get there, right?

And so we did hear from President Biden for the first time putting an estimate on what his administration thinks is the total number, between 50 and 65,000 Afghans that they're going to try to get out of the country. But he didn't say, as you note, Poppy, that the United States military is going to stay there until that number is out of the country.

And I think it's also important to note we don't know exactly where he got that number from, because you have some refugee organizations, refugees, internationals saying that the Biden administration should actually be resettling close to 200,000 Afghans here in the U.S. Of course, we can't resettle them here unless they get out of the country.

SCIUTTO: We did a fact check yesterday that said that some estimate up to 300,000 who served the U.S. in some capacity there.

Our Nick Paton Walsh, he is in Doha, Qatar, where many of these evacuees are being taken. Nick, of course, you were in Kabul just a few days ago on the other side of this. What is required for someone in Afghanistan to get on one of those planes to at least get to Doha, right, where I understand there is additional vetting that goes on? NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes. I mean, I have to say, it is a little tough to understand exactly how the system works. Because I was in the crush of hundreds of Afghans trying to get to the gates, the key gates in the north, where there is much less Taliban presence, in the south of the airport in the main artery road, as we saw in Clarissa's reporting yesterday, and I saw it myself on Monday, they have been there for days, a lot of Taliban simply turning anybody away trying to get to that main entrance.

Around to the north, that has been where people have seen some success, but when I was there, there were so many Afghans and likely American-Afghans, likely Americans were there too, European passport holders, all crushing to get to the gate itself. But when I put my head over the gate and somebody lifted me up to say, look, what about a chance of getting in. The U.S. Marine said very cleanly, absolutely not. We can't let anybody in.

And I think the logic was you start seeing one person get pushed over the fence, everybody tries it and then how do the Marines react. Well, they essentially will have to find some way of using force to stop them from doing that. I heard shots fired in the air while I was standing there.

So, it is a very volatile scene, one, frankly, where any system that's in place, waving your passport, saying you have the right paperwork is very hard for the Marines themselves to legislate for because you have this potential of a rush of people simply trying to do the same thing as they see a successful person do.

And then here is one -- well, two other important things to remember. If you have a successful crossing, the person who has done that will tell their family that they managed to get in and then probably how they did. And then word travels incredibly fast in a community desperate to get out, and then often, that area is flooded.

The way I got into the airport, I was beaten been by an Afghan security guard on the way in with a piece of wire, that, subsequent hours later, I understood, was, in fact, sealed off. The big problem too is for Americans on the base, a lot of what they say and think is systematic, it feels orderly. They think they have a process. But I think some of them wonder too why there aren't many Afghans sometimes on that particular base. There aren't that many people. You're imagining a scene, right, of people sprawling on endless car parks all over the airport desperate to get out.

When I was there, there weren't that many. I have seen pictures that suggest maybe more have got on, but the major thing, I think, so far is that as they ramp up the numbers, they need to get people on to the airport, not get the planes in to get them off. So, there is a huge disconnect, as you've seen, sadly, a lot through the Afghan 20-year American experience and what happens on base and what is happening off the base. Off the base, it is chaos and a very dangerous thing for people to endure simply to get on to that airport.

HARLOW: Yes. But what they're willing to endure just to try to get out of the country says a lot. Nick Paton Walsh, thank you, Kylie Atwood at the State Department, John Harwood at the White House.

Let's talk about all of it with Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, former Army Commanding General of the Europe and 7th Army. Thank you very much for being here.

There is a lot to get to with you on the issue of the chaos outside and within the Kabul airport. There is a big question, and that is why did they not keep Bagram open with multiple runways with all of the facilities of a U.S. operation going on there? During the press conference yesterday, we heard from the Joint Chiefs chairman, Mark Milley, and Defense Secretary Lloyd Austin, and here is what Secretary Austin said.

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I want your response on the other side.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LLOYD AUSTIN, DEFENSE SECRETARY: We will continue to coordinate and de-conflict with the Taliban and make sure that those folks, those people that need to get to the airfield have the right to credentials to ensure passage and the Taliban will -- has been checking those credentials and if they have them, they have allowed them to pass.

We don't have the capability to go out and collect up large numbers of people.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: That is a big deal. Relying on Taliban to check the paperwork and we don't have enough resources to get it done. Was it a mistake? Was there a lesson learned from closing Bagram when they did?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, when you're talking about a neo-operation like this, Poppy, you very much attempt to centralize things primarily because of the force requirements. Had we kept Bagram, Kandahar, Mazar-i-Sharif, I mean, you can go on and on and the number of airfields that were available that could potentially be hubs for neo-evacuations, you're talking about an requirement for force protection, processing and troops available.

2,500 troops were in Afghanistan when this neo-operation started as a result of the earlier drawdown. That many forces, even deploying tens of thousands of more is contrary to the desire to withdraw from the country. That's why Kabul is stated as the hub and the centralized location based on -- some circumstances that the government would continue to hold weeks and more than it has now.

SCIUTTO: Now. So, you have a new reality. That is a fact. And I've spoken and I've been in touch personally with Afghans who serviced the U.S. who cannot get to the airport, that they say they're in danger. And this is from Kabul, right, just traveling a couple of miles because they're worried about danger. So, the circumstances are new and different. How does the president keep his promise to get out Afghans who worked with the U.S. if they can't get to the airport, right? I mean, General Austin said yesterday, granted, acknowledged that they don't have the forces to extract folks even from within Kabul, do they have to change so that they have the capability, because otherwise you can't fulfill your promise?

HERTLING: Yes. I don't know how you change that, Jim. I don't know how you increase the flow outside of the gate. I would like to point out though too, whereas all of us are thinking the Taliban right now is large and in charge of the government, there is still an active civil war going on. We've seen new movements crop up. So, it is not as if the Taliban, even though we all believe they're in the middle of Kabul and everything is going smoothly, because they're now in charge, they don't have a government up and operational. So it is still a sporty situation everywhere within Afghanistan, not just in Kabul.

So trying to say, hey, we have to clear the roads to get people with free access to the Kabul neo-site, that is going to be challenging. It is going to be difficult. And that is why I said yesterday, before the president did, that I think they would have to extend the opportunity for folks to get out. How long is that going to be extended? I don't know. But I'm sure the Taliban are going to have a say in that and there is going to have to be some diplomatic back and forth between the U.S. government, the U.S. military and the Taliban who are patrolling around the airport.

SCIUTTO: Yes. For folks who don't know, NEO stands for noncombatant evacuation order. I just want to educate the non-acronym-wise, General Mark Hertling. But it's always good to have you --

HERTLING: If I can give you one more acronym, Jim, and that is, DOTS. It's stands for, depends on the situation. The situation is going to continue to change in this. We are in day four of this, our day three or four of this right. It's going to continue to evolve. There are going to be some good things and likely some bad things are going to evolve out of this.

SECRETARY Yes. A general said similar last hour. So, listen, we have got to watch how it develops. Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, thanks very much.

HERTLING: Pleasure, Jim. Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Still to come this hour, we're going to put a face to these numbers. We're going to be joined by a former U.S. Army translator desperate now to get his wife out of Kabul. This as we await a briefing still at the Pentagon on the withdrawal, the evacuation process, latest update, we'll bring that to you the moment it starts.

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SCIUTTO: This just into CNN, Police are now investigating a claim of an explosive device in a truck near the library of Congress at the U.S. Capitol. Capitol Police tweeted that they are responding. A source tells CNN that negotiators are being sent to negotiate with the man in the truck who is making the threat.

At the same time, congressional staffers have been asked to shelter in their offices. We're going to bring you updates on this immediately as we get them.

HARLOW: We certainly will. Well, right now, some congressional Democrats are pressing the White House for answers about what has turned out to be a very chaotic withdrawal from Afghanistan. They're preparing to hold hearings on what all happened as soon as next week.

Let's talk what with you know with Congressman John Garamendi a Democrat of California, sits on the House Armed Services Committee and chairs the Armed Services Subcommittee on Readiness. He has also traveled to Afghanistan multiple times.

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Most recently, you see him here in 2019 and has said that a 2011 trip to Afghanistan solidified, in his words, his believe that there was no military victory to be had there. Thank you, Congressman, for joining me. Good morning.

REP. JOHN GARAMENDI (D-CA): Good morning, Poppy.

HARLOW: I'd like to begin with the president's interview. You've stood firmly by him. You said he's made essentially in reading your statement all of the right calls. I'd like you to respond to this exchange that he just had with George Stephanopoulos.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANOPOULOS: You don't think this could have been handled better in any way, no mistakes?

BIDEN: No. I don't think it would have been handled in a way that -- we're going to go back in hindsight and look. But the idea that somehow there is a way to have gotten out without chaos ensuing, I don't how that happens. I don't know how that happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Do you agree given the chaos that unfolded? I mean, reports of 12 people killed trying to get to the airport, did you agree there were no mistakes? Meaning is there a lesson to be learned for America here?

GARAMENDI: Well, a moment ago, Poppy, had you a general on that gave us all the most important acronym we could have and that is DOS, D-O- S, depends on situation. We obviously have the very rapidly evolving situation in Afghanistan. While the intelligence said that, well, because the government could last for some days or some weeks or some years, the situation rapidly evolved where President Ghani simply picked up and left and the government collapsed, disappeared. That is DOS, depends on situation. So whatever the plan was before that, and there was a well laid out plan for the U.S. military to withdraw, leaving some 2,500 troops there and centered around the Kabul airport.

The reality is nobody expected a total collapse, an immediate total collapse of the Afghan government. Now, what are we going to do from here and the president is quite correct with what he said, chaos ensued as people desperately tried to get out of town.

HARLOW: But knowing, Congressman, the instability of Afghanistan as a country and part of the reason why the U.S. has been there for 20 years backing up those troops. You have colleagues in Congress, like Republican Senator Tom Cotton, an Afghan war veteran, who said this. No one in their right mind would have closed Bagram Air Base while leaving behind thousands of civilians.

I understand that there is a lot of Monday morning quarterbacking, but what I also understand is the importance of learning from situations even as they we develop and change. Does he have an important point? Should Bagram have been closed seeing what has unfolded at the one remaining open airport there?

GARAMENDI: With 2,500 troops, Senator Cotton knows better than that. If you want --

HARLOW: And now there are 6,000 more in. But, respectfully, Congressman, now you have to send more in.

GARAMENDI: Yes, that is correct. But if you want to keep Bagram open, which is a very, very large base, you're going to have to have several thousand troops just to keep that one base open. The reality was that the American drawdown was underway and that drawdown made it impossible to have Bagram open.

Now, the situation rapidly evolved and the president and the military are responding to the situation as it evolves. The collapse of the Afghan government was not anticipated. And the Afghan people less than a month ago, I was at a luncheon meeting with Ghani and Abdullah and both of them said they did not want Afghans to leave and that they were not going to make it easy for Afghans to leave. That was the situation a month ago. We're now -- we now have a different situation.

HARLOW: I understand that and respect your point on that. But I do want you to respond to the counterpoints on it. Let me ask you about something that can change now, and this is the discussion we had with your Democratic colleague, Congressman Seth Moulton, yesterday, and that is what we do for the Afghans that stood by our side. Once again, the president has not fully, publicly committed to keeping American troops there past August 31st if all of the Afghan allies and interpreters are not out. Listen to what Congressman Moulton is asking for from the Biden administration.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. SETH MOULTON (D-MA): It is absolutely imperative. They must make that commitment and they must follow through. And this is a commitment I've been asking them to make for months now, when I told them to start the evacuation before we get to a point like this.

[10:25:02]

We're the United States of America, if we could put a man on the moon, we can figure out how to get people out of Afghanistan.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HARLOW: Do you agree that is an imperative commitment President Biden needs to make, to keep troops even past August 31st, if needed, to get those Afghans out?

GARAMENDI: Well, I suspect that he will, in fact, do that. But, once again, he does not want to make an ironclad commitment right now to an unknown situation that will be facing him and America as well as the Afghans at the end of this month. He's made a commitment to keep troops there until all of the American citizens are removed and undoubtedly do the best they can.

Now, there is one more thing to keep in mind, and that is his hands are tied by the laws. The Congress passed a piece of legislation that gave the authority to the president to bring into the United States Afghan citizens and those who helped us. That bill is sitting in the U.S. -- they could, unanimous consent, put that on the president's desk this morning and he would have full authority. He doesn't have that now.

HARLOW: Okay. They could. We're out of time. But just to clarify, that does not tie his hands with the ability to stay past the 31st of August and to take them to a place, like Doha, Qatar, where others are going right now. So there are other options but I hear you on the legislation, Congressman.

GARAMENDI: That is correct. That is correct. And that will evolve as we get closer to the end of the month and we'll see what the situation is.

HARLOW: Okay. Thank you. I'm sorry we're pressed for time but do come back.

GARAMENDI: That's okay.

HARLOW: Thank you.

GARAMENDI: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, a different story. All week long, New Yorkers have been enjoying a celebration of sorts, free hip-hop concerts, part of what's being dubbed Home Coming Week. There is another show tonight in Brooklyn, Friday in Queens, all part of the lead-up to the We Love NYC concert that is airing exclusively here on CNN starting at 5:00 P.M. on Saturday.

The lineup, more than a dozen musical acts, including Wycleif Jean, Bruce Springsteen, LL Cool J, Barry Manilow, Jennifer Hudson. Attendees do have to show proof of at least one dose of the COVID vaccine to get in. At any moment now, we are expecting an update from the Pentagon on the situation in Afghanistan, the ongoing evacuations. We're going to bring you that live the moment it starts.

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