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Taliban Clash with Crowds amid Chaos Mass Exodus; Biden Defiant on Afghanistan Withdrawal Chaos; Delta Variant Concerns Fueling Heated Mask Battles in Schools. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 19, 2021 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

ANA CABRERA, CNN ANCHOR: Hello and thanks for being with us. I'm Ana Cabrera in New York. I want you to look at this staggering image, a snapshot of desperation, a sea of people stretching out of view pleading for passage through the gate at the Kabul airport, just that much closer to escape. The number so great, so overwhelming, the throng can be seen from space, lines of cars and people filling the streets leading to the airport.

But there are also Americans and Afghan allies stranded across the Taliban-held country with the U.S. embassy warning it can't guarantee safe passage to Kabul. The Pentagon saying it has not dispatched troops to retrieve them, despite reports of beatings at Taliban checkpoints.

At least a dozen people are reported killed in and around the airport in the four days since the Taliban takeover. The U.S. is ramping up its evacuation efforts but the numbers fall short in the race to safety. And here's the human face of the stakes involved, small Afghan child asleep on the floor of a military cargo plane as it leaves Kabul.

That child draped in a coat from a U.S. Air Force member. But what happens to those still trapped, those who are terrified of the Taliban now ruling the country? President Biden in a new interview denies a Wall Street Journal report that he ignored advice of top generals to leave behind enough troops to prevent the chaos.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS HOST: Your top military advisers warned against withdrawing on this timeline. They wanted you to keep about 2,500 troops.

JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: No, they didn't. It was split. That wasn't true. That wasn't true.

STEPHANOPOULOS: They didn't tell you they wanted troops to stay?

BIDEN: No, not in terms of whether we were going to get out in a timeframe, all troops. They didn't argue against that.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So no one -- your military advisers did not tell you, no, we should just keep 2,500 troops. It's been a stable situation for the last several years, we can do that, we can continue to do that?

BIDEN: No. No one said that to me that I can recall.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is in nearby Doha, the capital of Qatar, where we're told the State Department is meeting with some Taliban officials. It's also where some Afghans could soon seek refuge. Nick, what is the status of the U.S. evacuation efforts?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Well, according to the Pentagon, they are hoping to try and increase capacity to possibly their goal of 5,000 to 9,000 people per day. They said that they've managed to get 2,000 out in the last 24 hours.

But there was one thing which made me feel this process is not really under control. When asked how many American citizens were left to evacuate, they didn't know. And so if you're essentially prioritizing the removal of a specific number of people that you cannot quantity, then you're dealing with basically an indefinite process. You don't know how long you're going to need your resources down and you don't know when you're done.

Plus, the major thing that seemed to be not really grasped by the Pentagon during this press conference was how messy it is outside that airport, the real chaos on the road outside. I saw it myself. It's terrifying. And it means that the gates are mostly shut because you can't let one person in or everyone tries to pour through that particular route.

CABRERA: We showed the pictures of just how many people are trying to get through the crowds. We've heard reports of stampedes. We've heard reports of gunshots. What are you learning about the conditions in the ground in Afghanistan today?

WALSH: Yes. I mean, look, I was there on Tuesday afternoon when I was nearly crushed by hundreds of people pushing heavily towards ten-foot metal gate and babies passed up to guards, warning shots fired in the air. I heard a report from one of the Americans inside the base that, in fact, somebody had been hit by a round in the ankle outside of the base among the crowds there. It is just utter chaos.

And because there are hundreds, possibly thousands of people around that base trying exploit any possible avenue in, because they fear for their lives, they think this is their one chance to get to safety, a single rumor that there might be a hole or a gate open causes a flood. That flood causes that particular avenue to shut down.

So the tiny hole that I got through, well, I now have learned we (INAUDIBLE) by the U.S. Marine because they can't have that sort of thing available. So, it's essentially -- the real flashpoint in Kabul at the moment, there have been some concern inside the city where people marching with the Afghan flag, a protester gains the Taliban, sounds of gunfire. It does appears that things are more increasingly volatile there today, but it's the airport where, really, there's the scenes of desperation but appear to have no obvious solution, Ana.

CABRERA: Nick Paton Walsh, thank you for that update.

I want to continue this conversation with our guest, CNN Military Cedric Leighton, a retired U.S. Air Force colonel, and Ronald Neumann, a former U.S. Ambassador to Afghanistan.

[13:05:02]

He currently serves as president of the American Academy of Diplomacy, a Washington-based think tank. Thank you both for being with us.

Ambassador, let's just listen to one of the things, the president said in his new interview with ABC.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANOPOULOS: You don't think this could have been handled, this actually could have been handled better in any way, mo mistakes?

BIDEN: No. I don't think it could have been handled in a way that -- we're going to go back in hindsight and look, but the idea that somehow there's a way to have gotten out without chaos ensuing, I don't know how that happens. I don't know how that happened.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Ambassador, he is still saying there weren't any mistakes, that this was just inevitable. Was it?

RONALD NEUMANN, FORMER U.S. AMBASSADOR TO AFGHANISTAN, ALGERIA, BAHRAIN: No. The decision to withdraw, that's one thing, the handling of the decision, abysmal. The president promised that we would continue support for the Afghan security services. There was zero planning for how to do that, how to service the aircraft when we pulled the contractors out.

So we gutted them when we pulled the contractors out. Massive undermining of Afghan morale, which helped -- not the only factor, but helped lead to the collapse of the Afghan army. The months between his decision and now when there was no evacuation program for the special immigrant visas, all of those people could have been gotten out of the country easily by now. So I could go on and on, but short answer is absolute nonsense.

CABRERA: Colonel, as far as this chaos surrounding evacuations, we know the U.S. closed Bagram Air Base early, was that a mistake?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: I think it was. I agree with the ambassador. This type of chaos could have been prevented. We know Afghanistan is a chaotic country, but your job is to minimize chaos when you plan for these kinds of things. So, Bagram should have absolutely been kept open because we knew we were going to have to do something like this.

CABRERA: So, Colonel, what do you do then to try to get people through? Because right now, it seems like there is a massive bottleneck right there at the airport, which we've been reporting on, and at this point, the U.S. military is not planning to go out beyond the airport to try to create any kind of corridor to try to help people get through who need to be evacuated.

LEIGHTON: Well, we know that the British are actually going out there. At least there are reports, I should say, that the British SAS or similar organizations are doing that. We may need to do something similar, or the very least have a humanitarian corridor that allows people to get in to a line that is protected by U.S. troops that will not be impacted by the Taliban. That's what we need to do. We need to assure their safety. And I get messages every day, every hour, really, from Afghans that are wanting to get to the airport and they can't. And that's a real problem.

CABRERA: Ambassador, the president did not rule out keeping American troops in Afghanistan beyond that August 31st deadline if the evacuations aren't complete by then, but he waivered on whether the extended evacuations would include Afghan allies, like translators who are now vulnerable to the Taliban. Is it clear to you what the president's plan is to help those Afghans?

NEUMANN: No, and I'm extremely worried. The president opposed aid to Vietnamese refugees long ago. He has an unclear record on this subject. These people fought with us, they trusted us. We have a huge moral debt to them. And if we are going to leave them behind after we have a legal program that brings them in and, in many cases, have agreed so now we're going to say to the other 15,000 because we haven't been able to handle the bureaucracy of our paperwork and sometimes up to three years tough luck, we're just going to leave you behind, that would be, in my mind, completely indefensible.

CABRERA: And so, Ambassador, what would be your advice to the president right now in this moment?

NEUMANN: I think -- first of all, I think the president needs to make it explicit that we're going to get out all of the people who have already been put in our system as candidates and get them out wherever we have to. Secondly, I think we have to recognize that we have a big moral debt to a much larger much of Afghans, women, journalists, civil society leaders who we have helped learn to value the same things we value.

And we should at least have a much larger refugee program, as we had for the Vietnamese. I think we should be doing that, and that they need legislation. So I think the president has to make clear that he understands he has a -- taken on a large moral responsibility through his decision to bail out on Afghanistan.

[13:10:00]

CABRERA: We know right now 7,000 people have been evacuated since August 14th, and there are tens of thousands of these Afghan allies that would be in need of evacuation.

Colonel, President Biden has also said in this interview that he doesn't trust the Taliban but he says this is a different Taliban than 20 years ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: They don't come up just like they were when we were attacked. There was a guy named Osama bin Laden that was still alive and well. They were organized in a big way that they had significant help from other parts of the world.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: The Pentagon press secretary said just a couple hours ago that there have been no hostile interactions between the Taliban and U.S. forces and that the military is in communication with the Taliban to make sure those who are trying to leave the country can. But on the other hand, the Taliban is claiming victory today over the U.S. Colonel, how do you see the relationship changing as the U.S. finalizes its withdrawal?

LEIGHTON: Well, I think there, Ana, there are elements of the Taliban that are perhaps more likely to use diplomacy and more likely accommodate some of our wishes. But the core elements of the Taliban have not (INAUDIBLE) in the last 20 years. One thing that has changed is the fact that the Afghan people now have access to far more technology and far more information, cell phones, cell networks, the internet, all of those things make a big difference in civil society. So, it's a different landscape for the Taliban as well and they know that they're going to have to play on an international stage and their moves are going to be scrutinized as well as ours.

CABRERA: Colonel Cedric Leighton and Ambassador Ronald Neumann, thank you both for being part of this conversation.

Now, two of the selling points for candidate Joe Biden were his long history of foreign policy experience and the human touch that would make him a compassionate commander-in-chief. Both attributes seem to be shrinking during this crisis.

Let's get the view from the White House with Kaitlan Collins. Kaitlan, you've been reporting on this. Our allies and many Americans finding a different Joe Biden than they thought they knew?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Ana. I think a lot of European leaders thought they knew how President Biden's time in office would go, certainly when it came to Afghanistan, given his time as then-Senator Joe Biden, as Vice President Joe Biden. Of course, now as president, that is when the dynamic changes, when you are the one who is calling the shots and making the changes here when it comes to U.S. presence in Afghanistan.

I think that's been a big question that we've seen play out since Kabul actually fell to the Taliban on Sunday, because, remember, it took quite a little time before his first call with the foreign leader. That first one was the British prime minister, Boris Johnson. Yesterday, he spoke to the German chancellor. And today, I believe, we are expecting him to speak to the French president as well.

But those are calls that happen much more delayed than when you saw other European leaders calling one another. The White House has said there were calls happening at a lower level with the secretary of state calling his counterparts, the national security adviser on the phone as well. And so I think the question that they've had really is how this response has gone. Because I think they thought it was going to be what President Biden had promised, talking about America is back, talking about leadership back on the world stage and this kind of competence.

And so I think the question that you're seeing allies wrestle with is they are dealing with anger in their countries over how the U.S.-led withdrawal has gone down.

CABRERA: President Biden's tone has been mostly defiant. I remember when he said at a CNN town hall that he would always be honest with the American people, but the tape doesn't lie. Let's listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BIDEN: The likelihood there's going to be the Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely.

The idea that somehow there's a way to have gotten out without chaos ensuing, I don't know how that happens.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: So he was clear in July that what is happening now would not happen. So what is the White House saying about the evacuation underway?

COLLINS: Essentially, what they've said in response to when we appointed them to statements like that from President Biden is that the intelligence changes and talking about how scenarios change. But I think the question that raises is why wasn't President Biden offering that kind of a realistic timeline if he thought it was possible just six weeks ago when he was talking to reporters about this and defending this U.S. withdrawal from Afghanistan.

Because he wasn't saying, well, there are multiple scenarios being presented to me, this is one, this is the other, this is what we believe is -- has a greater level of confidence. He said pointblank it is highly unlikely that the Taliban is going to take over.

And so I think now that he is saying that he doesn't believe there could have been any situation where there was anything but a chaotic exit is not what we have been hearing when they've been saying they expected this to be a safe and orderly drawdown, and, of course, as what we've seen from the airport, it's really been anything but.

[13:15:01]

CABRERA: Kaitlan Collins at the White House for us, thank you.

The demand for answers coming from both sides of the aisle on Afghanistan. We've got the latest from Capitol Hill.

Plus, the fight over school mask mandates erupting across the country, it's even seeping in to Tennessee's own COVID task force. The doctor who says she's fed up after the governor gave the okay for students to opt out of wearing a mask.

And a scary scene unfolding in our nation's Capitol, buildings evacuated after a man with a truck says he has a bomb? We'll have the latest.

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CABRERA: Outraged and fighting back. Parents and school officials across several states are taking measures now to protect kids as cases spike in classrooms.

[13:20:05]

We're talking thousands of students and teachers with new infections just since the school year started.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Mask in class. Mask in class. Mask in class.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: This is Cobb County, Georgia, where parents are pulling their children out of school, staging protests over a decision that that district to not require masks. And in California -- I should say, Florida, rather, where more than 10,000 students are in quarantine in one district alone, three of the state's biggest districts voted to defy Governor Ron DeSantis and are implementing mask mandates. A total of five Florida school districts are now requiring maskss. One mother of two says this is all about keeping kids in the classroom.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NORMA MAIZ, MOTHER OF TWO KIDS IN HILLSBOROUGH COUNTY PUBLIC SCHOOLS: It's not for a personal choice. I mean, just try to (INAUDIBLE) the location as much as possible. If you look at your guidelines, it just said if everybody wears the mask, what I understand from that, there will be less quarantine. Even if you are have the same positive cases, there will be less quarantine.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: In Texas, where Republican Governor Greg Abbott just tested positive for the coronavirus after holding a maskless indoor event, schools are either ignoring the governor's ban on masking mandates or finding ways around it. At least one district changed its dress code to require masks. This is Louisiana. This state school board meeting was forced to adjourn after a debate over masks turned ugly. And we should note the American Academy of Pediatrics recommends everyone ages two and up wear masks in school regardless of vaccination status.

Joining us now is Dr. Mark McClellan. He is the director of the Duke- Margolis Center for Health Policy at Duke University. He is also a former FDA commissioner and serves as an independent director on Johnson & Johnson's board. So, thank you, Dr. McClellan, for being here.

I have questions about boosters in just a moment for you, but, first, just your reaction to this battle over masks in schools.

DR. MARK MCCLELLAN, DIRECTOR, DUKE-MARGOLIS CENTER FOR HEALTH POLICY: Well, it's a serious issue. As you said, we're seeing lots of cases turn up, turning up in kids going back to school. These are mainly cases that are happening in the community because we have so much COVID transmission all across the United States right now.

But we've seen there's good evidence that if you take four steps in schools, one, get as many people vaccinated as possible, the teachers, the staff, the students who are old enough, two, have testing support for detecting cases that aren't symptomatic, three, good ventilation and some distancing or cohorts, and, four, masks, they do help reduce transmission. So, that is the safest way to open schools and keep them open.

CABRERA: I mean, the country is all over the map on this depending on which state you live in. Texas is one of those states where the governor who just tested positive for COVID-19 himself this week is actually threatening school districts that want to require masks in classrooms. You're a part of Governor Abbott's now disbanded advisory board. Who do you think that governor is listening to at this point?

MCCLELLAN: Well, I'm not sure, because, as you said, advisory board is no longer, meeting no longer together and hasn't been since early this year. I do think the right decision here is to leave control with the local districts.

The local authorities are best able to assess how much COVID is present in the community, what other steps, and I mentioned some other steps that help too, like distancing and ventilation and getting vaccination rates up. It's best to leave those decisions to the local areas since there is so much variation in COVID around the country and there probably will be during the course of the career.

CABRERA: Let's talk boosters. As we mentioned, you serve as an independent director on Johnson & Johnson's board. Where's the data for J&J's vaccine? Why are people who got that vaccine still in the dark when it comes to whether they need a booster?

MCCLELLAN: It's a great question. That data is coming. As you remember, the Pfizer and Moderna vaccines were approved first. So, they started being administered back in December. The J&J vaccine wasn't approved until a couple months later. So, the studies are in process. And there's every expectation they're

going to be done soon in time to make sure that everybody who had any of these three vaccines get some clear guidance about the best next steps for them by that September 20th or thereabouts date that the federal governments announce when they want to start doing the booster shots.

But, remember, Ana, the first boosters are going to go to the people who got vaccinated earliest and are in the highest risk group. So, that's mainly people in nursing homes, frontline health care workers. Most of them were vaccinated with the mRNA vaccines, but from will be more data and guidance coming, I'm sure, in that same timeframe for people who had the J&J vaccine.

[13:25:06]

CABRERA: Based on what you know so far, will people who had the J&J vaccine need a booster at some point?

MCCLELLAN: It's a good question. This is a different kind of vaccine that's shown some good evidence of durability. It generates antibodies but it also generates good memory from the cells that make the antibodies and good response from other cells that can help fight a viral infection. So, that's why we're doing the studies. Some promising results but we want to see actual experience.

So far, all of these vaccines though, I just want to emphasize, are much better than not being vaccinated for especially protecting against the serious consequences that we see with this very contagious delta variant.

CABRERA: So, you feel confident that the J&J vaccine is effective against the delta variant?

MCCLELLAN: Yes, good data on that, including a recently published study out of South Africa where, again, for all the vaccines, very good protection against serious illnesses that cause hospitalization and death. We are unquestionably seeing a number of breakthrough cases and that's why people need to pay attention to masks and some of these other steps at the same time. And why we're looking closely at boosters as people are further out from those initial vaccines. All of these vaccines are way better than not being vaccinated, especially with the delta.

CABRERA: Dr. McClellan, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it.

MCCLELLAN: Good to be with you.

CABRERA: Act up and you could pay up. The FAA is pushing hefty new fines for unruly fliers. This might get folks to listen.

And just a quick programming note, join CNN for We Love New York City, The Homecoming Concert, this Saturday starting at 5:00 P.M. Eastern here on CNN.

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