Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Democrats Battle Over Infrastructure Bills; Biden Not Changing Afghanistan Withdrawal Date. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired August 24, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:01]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Welcome to NEWSROOM.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

And, soon, we are expecting the president to speak from the White House, just a few minutes from now. He is going to explain his critical decision on Afghanistan that U.S. troops will withdraw by August 31.

Also breaking this hour, the president told world leaders that the threat to U.S. troops is the key reason for sticking to the initial date set in this agreement with the Taliban.

The president has asked for contingency plans, though, in case he decides the U.S. needs to stay in the country a little longer.

Also, the Taliban reinforced their hard line today. They will not, they say, accept any extension of a U.S. presence beyond that date, which is just one week away. On top of that, the Taliban will not allow Afghans to leave. Members of the group are telling the thousands of Afghans at Kabul Airport to go home.

CAMEROTA: Here is what a Taliban spokesman said today -- quote -- "The Afghans leaving, we are not going to allow that and we are not even happy about it" -- end quote.

So the pressure is on to accelerate those evacuations. The Pentagon says a plane is now departing Kabul every 45 minutes. The U.S. military and coalition forces evacuated an unprecedented 21, 600 people from the Kabul Airport in just the last 24 hours.

But Pentagon officials still are not giving an exact number of Americans who have gotten out. A source tells CNN that an internal report shows 4, 293 U.S. citizens have been flown out of Afghanistan since the flights began.

CNN's Nick Paton Walsh is in Doha following the evacuees. CNN's Oren Liebermann is at the Pentagon.

We are going to start this hour with CNN's Phil Mattingly there at the White House.

So, what are we expecting to hear from the president in just a few minutes?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, guys, I think you are going to hear the president give an update certainly on the dramatic increase in numbers of evacuees over the course of the past several days, the dramatic effort from the U.S. and coalition side to scale up those evacuations to a level that I don't even think they expected when they first started this process.

But I think what everybody's going to be listening for is the rationale behind the president's decision to stick to that self- imposed August 31 withdrawal deadline. Keep in mind, guys, that's just seven days away. There are thousands of both Americans and Afghans in the country that still need to be evacuated.

But the president behind closed doors in an emergency virtual meeting with G7 leaders this morning made clear risk to U.S. personnel was one of the driving factors in that decision. Yes, that personnel is in the middle of a country that is currently controlled by the Taliban. That is a problem, particularly given the Taliban's red line on that August 31 withdrawal.

But the president, I'm told by officials, also made clear the administration is acutely aware of potential terror threats inside the country that could be targeted towards that U.S. -- those U.S. personnel, a threat that they -- the president told world leaders grows each day, and particularly in the wake of that August 31 deadline.

So that's been a key driving force behind the decision to stick to that timeline up to this point. Now, guys, it's worth noting, yesterday, the president dispatched his CIA director, William Burns, to meet with the de facto Taliban leader in Kabul and have discussions.

Now, Bill Burns is not just the CIA director. He's also one of the most decorated diplomats inside the administration, former deputy secretary of state, former U.S. ambassador to Russia. Really, the sense we have gotten from officials as he wanted to get a feel for where the Taliban stood on specific issues, including that deadline.

But all of this kind of led into the president's final decision here. One thing to keep in mind -- and you guys noted this -- the president made clear he has directed his officials to draft contingency plans in case they need to extend that deadline.

But at this point in time, the deadline is set. And that means U.S. military personnel will likely have to start withdrawing in the coming days, guys.

BLACKWELL: All right, Phil Mattingly there for us.

We know also that the Pentagon will not be specific about how many Americans have made it out of Afghanistan. CNN's Barbara Starr pressed the Pentagon spokesman on the issue this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) BARBARA STARR, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: My question is, can this administration tell the American people how many Americans it has evacuated from Afghanistan? And if you cannot, can you please explain not the denominator.

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: I understand.

STARR: Why can't you just say the number?

KIRBY: Barbara, I think we're just going to leave it at several thousand right now. and I understand that's not a satisfying answer to you.

I would tell you that the number literally changes almost by the hour.

STARR: But so does everything else.

KIRBY: I understand, Barbara. We're going to leave it at several thousand for right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: So, Pentagon correspondent Oren Liebermann joins us now.

Oren, help us understand this, OK? I understand why they don't know how many Americans are still in Afghanistan, because they explained yesterday that some don't check in with the embassy when they arrive. Some don't alert the embassy when they leave.

But when the planes land in Doha or wherever, aren't they doing a head count of who on board is American, et cetera?

[14:05:02]

OREN LIEBERMANN, CNN PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT: Of course.

And a couple times over the course of the past nine or 10 days, they have actually said this flight had 236 -- and I'm just making up a number here as an example, but they have said how many Americans or at least roughly were on certain flights.

But they haven't done it cumulatively. So, it has been difficult to track how many are in Afghanistan and how many are out of Afghanistan. They have given vague numbers over the course of the last few days, saying just several thousand.

Part of that might be the security reason. You don't want either the Taliban or any terror groups, ISISK, al Qaeda, or others, to know how many Americans are in the country. But as you pointed out, you're not required to register with the U.S. Embassy in Kabul upon arrival. So it becomes very difficult to have a good perfect number of how many Americans you need to get out.

The administration and the Pentagon have been vague about this number, saying simply several thousand have come up, several thousand left to go. It's also possible they don't want to be tied to a number as we reach the last seven days here left to withdraw.

And because it's only seven days left, the planning, as this effort is ongoing at these new record numbers we're seeing, the planning also begins to focus on the last 48 hours. As you have fewer troops on the ground, not only does it degrade and limit your ability to move people through and get people on flights. It also limits your ability to protect those troops remaining.

The fewer the troops there at Kabul International Airport, the less security they're able to offer themselves. And that becomes a big risk. How do you get out those last few troops? And that is a key effort of the planning here, right now, 5, 800 troops still on the ground there.

But that is one of the big questions that everyone's working to figure out in terms of that -- now that August 31 deadline that everyone is working towards. On top of that, there is some advanced equipment the U.S. also needs to figure out what to do with, either to try to get it out or find some way to destroy it in some way that works with the coordination with the Taliban, or not if it's after the U.S. troops are out.

BLACKWELL: All right, let's turn down to Nick Paton Walsh.

The Taliban, Nick, is now saying that foreign nationals are allowed to leave the airport, but they're not allowing Afghans to leave. As I said at the top, they're telling them just to go home. And there will be no reprisals.

I mean, what does this mean for those thousands of Afghans who outside the gates of the airport trying to push their way in?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Well, it's important to point out that who got on to the airport or not has kind of been defined a lot of time by just sheer chaos and strength of will, frankly, or often who you knew inside it.

We have had reports of Taliban checkpoints turning people away. We have seen it ourselves, the Taliban always on that main road towards the airport. And they have tightened security too, sending in better trained, more hard-line units around it too.

This is the first time they have actually laid out what -- quote -- "their policy is," which is Afghans should not be going out of the country, unless it's necessary. That will certainly strike a chill in all of the tens of thousands of SIV applicants who are still in Kabul or surrounding cities at this time, because they now know that, if the U.S. leaves, it is quite likely the Taliban will stick to that policy, and they won't be able to start taking civilian flights out.

State Department officials had been suggesting they'd like to see the SIV program continue after their military departure. That was a long shot, frankly. But we're now into this very important small window. Today, the scenes at the airport more controlled, about 4, 500 most of the time actually on the airport. Unclear if that is a residual number that they simply kept and then shipped out, or if they kept bringing some on and shipping others off the airport, and that was the continual number of total that remained on there, 9,000 at one point on the gates too.

And some of these SIV applicants who yesterday the policy was not to admit on to the airport have been allowed on today in small numbers, because the gates for the most part are still shut.

So, now we have this 31st of August, very clear deadline. And we have the fact that the military operation has to begin to pack itself up. It's big. And, remember, you don't want to be the last American troops in Afghanistan after 20 years and not have a very good and cautious plan about how you pack up and leave, given how hostile the Taliban can be, and all the other possible elements as well.

The window for continuing evacuation is certainly small. So we're going to be having to listen out to exactly how many they think they have got off the airport today. Extraordinary numbers over the past few -- I mean, you have to -- I'm staggered, frankly.

And it's possible to observe the volume of aircraft they have been going through there and imagine just how efficient this has been, but 30,000 people taken off an airport in 48 hours is quite a remarkable feat, so valiant work by the U.S. airmen and diplomats behind processing all those people.

But it's a much more complicated task now, because there's local embassy employees. They want to get on and get out of the country. There's a much larger group of potential SIV applicants who have to get through potential checkpoints as well.

We do know the U.S. is doing all it can to go and get people possibly who need help to get in. But now that deadline is announced, the clock is loudly ticking. And so people in Kabul who want to get out will be feeling that sense of, well, panic. I hate to say it.

[14:10:05]

So is the U.S. going to be a victim of its own success and see crowds outside the airport trying to get in? Possibly not, because the Taliban appear to be doing more crowd control and holding people back.

This has been messy. It looks so much more under control now, frankly, in terms of the airport scenes, but it's this withdrawal. Remember, this moment so symbolic for so many Americans who served out there. It may be we never see the last American troop depart from Afghanistan.

Sam (ph) is on the airport now, but it's such an utterly key moment for so many to see how this final denouement of such a lengthy application, America's longest war, actually plays out. And I do hope that it is without bloodshed.

CAMEROTA: Nick, one more question. You're in Doha. And we are hearing reports that some of the conditions there are terrible.

So what are you seeing on the ground?

WALSH: Yes, this is the conditions for those Afghans or other nationals who have come here and then go through processing as part of the SIV application program.

Now, I should say, when we first came in a week ago, it was pretty hectic. I mean, we are dealing with airmen on the base there who were not expecting such a volume. Nobody was Kabul coal to fall so fast. So it was an ad hoc operation doing the best it could.

And we did hear reports as time went by that things were getting really tough. It's 50 degrees -- sorry, 100-plus out there Fahrenheit for people in the desert. The air base is stuck in the middle of the desert sands, and it was going to be tough to get water to people, to keep the air conditioning going. There were coronavirus concerns, too.

I have to say, I have been making quite a lot of phone calls to Afghans currently on those facilities. And while there are some problems, and while John Kirby was very clear that things could be better, and they're doing their best to improve it, I haven't been getting a picture of chaotic conditions.

To be honest, they have been sending me pictures of a lot of bunk beds and what looks like quite comfortable areas for them to be. And that may not be the entirety of the picture. There may be some places where it's worse, given the comments from the Pentagon.

But under these very difficult conditions, frankly, it has been extraordinary to see how the U.S. service men and women on these air bases have just put everything in to making things work.

BLACKWELL: And dealing with these massive numbers at such a crucial time.

CAMEROTA: it is a Herculean effort.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: I mean, as Nick has pointed out, it is -- what we're watching unfold it, I mean, Joe Biden described it as the largest and most complicated airlift in -- one of them in history.

BLACKWELL: Yes, and the ramp-up. I mean, several days ago -- our thanks to Nick Paton Walsh, Oren Liebermann, and Phil Mattingly, by the way.

But, early on, the administration was being scrutinized, as it should have been, for getting 600, 800, 2,000 out, but now 21,000 in a 24- hour period is remarkable. It certainly is.

CAMEROTA: And we will see if they can keep up that pace of every 45 minutes, which is their goal.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: OK, our thanks to our correspondents there. As we have said, we are waiting -- awaiting President Biden.

Joining us now, CNN military analyst retired Lieutenant General Mark Hertling. He is a former Army commanding general of Europe and the Seventh Army. We also have with us Peter Bergen, CNN national security analyst. He's written several books on al Qaeda, Afghanistan and America's longest war, including "The United States of Jihad: Investigating America's Homegrown Terrorists."

General, I just want to start with you, because I understand that it's in both the Taliban and the United States' military interests to get out on August 31. But what happens if they can't? I mean, what happens if the U.S. isn't done with their mission, if there are more people to evacuate? What happens then?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, that's a continual update by the commander on the scene, Alisyn.

And that's -- I think that's what Nick was attempting to talk about is the potential for what happens when the endpoint draws near, when we haven't gotten as many people as we'd like out, although I'd estimate that we're going to have somewhere between 120,000 and 150,000 out by then. That's a pretty successful mission, in my view.

But there will be people left behind, as some of your other commentators and I have been saying for over a week now. What we're concerned about and what any NEO commander, noncombatant evacuation operation commander, will have on his or her mind is, how do you get out in a contested environment?

What are the dangers posed by the enemy? What kind of threats do you perceive? Do you have to fight your way out? Do you have to protect aircraft and equipment as it's going out? Those parts of the plan have already been considered, I'm sure, having conducted a near NEO in my past life.

And all of those things are important considerations, because the last people off the ground are going to be the consular officials who are doing the paperwork, those from the State Department doing the paperwork for the Afghans that are departing, and the soldiers.

So the commander has all that as part of the plan. And the last two or two-and-a-half days are going to be a real rush if President Biden sticks to this 31 August date, which indicators are that he is doing.

[14:15:00]

BLACKWELL: Peter, we have just discussed this as the president's decision whether or not they will continue to evacuate Afghans after the 31st.

But after the Taliban spokesman said today that we're not in favor of Afghans leaving, and we're not going to allow it, I mean, essentially, because they are running the checkpoints getting to the airport in Kabul, the decision was made.

PETER BERGEN, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: Yes, one thing I'd be very concerned about is the question of dual nationals.

I mean, to the Taliban, they well take the position that if you have dual nationality, that you're an Afghan, not an American. Certainly, that's the way the Iranians treat dual nationals in Iran and a number of Iranian Americans have been held on that basis. So that's one concern.

And then, of course, the broader point is that this is a hostage crisis of the president's own making, and by the law of averages, quite a number of Americans aren't going to get on the flights by August 31, no matter how brilliantly this is executed. Quite a number of green card holders won't get on and quite a number of SIV holders and all the various other visa holders aren't going to get on.

And this is going to -- I take the Taliban at that word when they say August 31 is their red line. I think they're going to enforce that red line.

CAMEROTA: How? What would that look like, Peter?

BERGEN: I mean, it'd be -- they're going to take over the airport. I mean, we're gone. As far as they're concerned, we should have left in may, which was the original Trump agreement.

And they -- they mean what they say, I think, I mean, in this instance.

BLACKWELL: General, did you expect that this would be the decision? When we had this conversation a few days ago, you thought that the U.S. could get all of the Americans and those Afghans at risk and SIV recipients out by the end of the month.

Is this what you thought would be the decision?

HERTLING: Yes, I actually -- I actually thought there would be a good portion, Victor, as I recall our conversation, a good portion.

And there certainly is going to be, but I didn't think they'd have everyone that wanted to get out. That's a key question, though. Do those -- some of the people that want to get out aren't the SIV holders or not the special evacuees. They're just people that want to get the hell out of there.

But I actually thought that the president would actually extend the potential beyond August 31 and he would have Taliban blessing for that. But I think it's getting contentious right now. And you're hearing the rumblings of it from the Taliban.

They're realizing how many Afghan citizens are leaving. And they're concerned about that, because there is somewhat of a brain drain in this departure. So they don't want to lose their population, as most authoritarian dictators behind fences and walls don't want to do.

So it's concerning to me that the Taliban is getting a little bit testy. Unlike Peter, I'm more concerned -- the Taliban, I don't think, will attack into the airfield security. They know what's in there, paratroopers and Marines.

But what I'm more concerned about is the potential for attacks by others, ISISK, al Qaeda-K, some of the other terrorist group, who want to embarrass both the United States and the Taliban. Remember, ISISK is not a friend of the Taliban. So they have as much to gain by attacking, perhaps a suicide bomb or a suicide vest-wearer were outside the airport, as they do inside the airport.

And that's what concerns me the most right now.

CAMEROTA: Peter, who's in charge in Afghanistan?

Were you surprised to hear that the CIA director, Bill Burns, met with the head of the Taliban in Kabul face to face and has been doing this kind of mano a mano negotiating with him? And is that who's in charge? Because we have also heard about the different factions of Taliban, as well as what the general is talking about in terms of other terrorist groups.

BERGEN: CIA Director Burns met with Mullah Baradar, who's the head of the political arm of the Taliban, but he's not in charge. He is merely the public face of the movement.

Who is in charge? Siraj Haqqani is in charge. Siraj is the deputy leader of the Taliban. He's their military commander. He just achieved one of the great military victories of the last several decades in terms of basically taking a country more -- almost completely in two weeks.

And he is going to have a lot of juice here. Siraj Haqqani is a designated foreign terrorist. He is close to al Qaeda. And he is the person who is calling the shots here.

BLACKWELL: General, we already heard from a few of our correspondents. They're concerned about the last U.S. troops who will be leaving, and you don't want to be those troops.

What do those last couple of days look like?

HERTLING: It's fascinating, Victor.

But I will tell you, having been on deployments and redeployments many times in my career, it's hard getting the flow into a country. I don't think we will have to worry about getting the flow out of the country, unless it's under duress, in other words, an attack on the airfield. You tell soldiers and Marines to go, they're on the plane. It's not a delay then.

[14:20:02]

But the last two days has a plan set. There are certainly manifests -- I would guess and suppose that there are already manifests for the last couple of departures. They know exactly what to get out and how.

The biggest question, though, is some of the larger equipment. There are CH-47 helicopters. Those are the big ones with the double blades. You have got a lot of Black Hawks on the airport. There are other aircraft there. There are MRAP vehicles and Humvees. So it's going to be questionable whether they can load all of those up in the C-17, because each C-17 doesn't have a whole lot of potential for multiple lists.

So getting soldiers out, getting consular officials out, that's not a problem. You can load a lot of people on one of those big birds. It's the equipment that I would be worried about, but I'm sure the commander on the scene, General McDonough, has a plan for that -- or -- excuse me -- General Donahue has a plan for that.

BLACKWELL: All right, we are just seven days out from that final day, August 31.

General Hertling, Peter Bergen, thank you both.

HERTLING: You got it.

BLACKWELL: Well, we are learning more about how well your vaccine works as we turn toward coronavirus now, especially against the Delta variable.

CAMEROTA: We're also waiting for a key vote on President Biden's historic economic package. There had been a standoff late last night between Democrats. That has come to an end. And we will see what happens in the next hour.

We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:25:51]

CAMEROTA: A key vote in the House on a critical piece of the president's agenda could happen at any moment.

And after a last-minute standoff between House moderates and Democratic leadership and infighting within the party delayed it all, this is a vote on his $3.5 trillion bipartisan infrastructure deal. So, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi says Democrats will have the votes when this is brought to the floor.

BLACKWELL: Yes, you can see Steve Scalise there pretty fired up on the floor.

Congressional correspondent Jessica Dean joins us now.

So, a lot of back and forth and back again, but Democrats now think they have the votes.

JESSICA DEAN, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right.

They think they have a pathway forward now, Victor and Alisyn. But, yes, it's been a lot of back and forth. What you're seeing right now is, they are debating what's known as the rule on the floor. This is what sets up and tees up the ultimate vote on that rule. And some procedural movements here to fill you in on, what they finally came to a conclusion is speaker -- House -- House Speaker Nancy Pelosi laying this out just a few moments ago that they will continue forward with this dual track. They will go ahead and vote on the budget within this rule later today.

And they have deemed that. So it means, once they vote on it, that has passed, they can move it to the side. And then she says that they will have a vote on the bipartisan infrastructure bill by October 1, is what she just said on the floor.

So that is what we are looking at as this tracks forward. Of course, all of this as the Biden agenda hangs in the balance in terms of this vote getting through and then getting these moderates on board. There had been so much back and forth that, just last night, there were expletives and F-bombs that were being dropped when the House Democrats were meeting about the pathway forward on this and a lot of consternation and frustration with the House moderates who were holding this up.

But, again, it looks like we have seen the way forward and we are expecting to see a vote on this coming up within the next hour. But, Victor and Alisyn, we're putting an asterisk on everything all day today, because these things can slide move around. But that's what we are expecting as of right now.

CAMEROTA: OK, let's talk about this other important topic, and that is that, this morning, members of the January 6 select committee who are investigating the insurrection were briefed by the Department of Justice.

So what did they learn?

DEAN: That's right.

We know that they were expected to learn more about kind of the prosecutorial process that the DOJ has been using on the hundreds of suspects that they have arrested and are prosecuting that stems from January 6.

And we also know that the committee has made clear time and time again, they do not want to interfere with any of the criminal investigation. So, this was more of a briefing, the DOJ releasing a statement, Victor and Alisyn, that said that they briefed them on public information that was already out there about events stemming from January 6, so, again, just more information gathering.

We saw the chairman of that committee, Bennie Thompson, earlier today, and he said they do plan to meet again later this week. So their work continues even as, remember, technically, this was supposed to be a recess time for the House. They have come back to deal with the budget infrastructure and the John Lewis Voting Rights Act.

But we do expect to get more information and to see more movement from the committee, as, of course, the days go on -- Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Yes, certainly, a lot of work to do.

Jessica Dean for us there on Capitol Hill, thank you.

So we now know more about how long your vaccine can fight the Delta variant at full strength -- results of a new study coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)