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COVID Vaccines and Delta; Biden Not Changing Afghanistan Withdrawal Date. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired August 24, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:57]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Top of the hour. Thanks for staying with us. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

We have just learned that President Biden will speak from the White House at 4:30 p.m. Eastern time. And that will be to explain his critical decision on Afghanistan that U.S. troops will withdraw by that that August 31 deadline.

The president told world leaders today that the threat to U.S. troops is the key reason for sticking to that initial date that was set in the agreement with the Taliban.

President Biden, though, has asked for contingency plans in case he decides that the U.S. needs to stay in the country longer. And the Taliban, meanwhile, has reinforced their hard line today. They say they will not accept any extension of a U.S. presence beyond that date, which is now one week away.

BLACKWELL: And the Taliban declared today Afghans cannot leave and ordered the crowds at Kabul Airport to just go home.

Now, a few moments ago, a Taliban spokesman said the roads to the airport are only open to foreigners, not Afghans. So the pressure to accelerate evacuations is growing now. The Pentagon says a plane is departing Kabul Airport every 45 minutes.

The U.S. military and coalition forces evacuated an unprecedented 21, 600 people from the Kabul Airport in the last 24 hours.

Let's turn now to White House's -- CNN's Kaitlan Collins there.

Kaitlan, we're expecting -- we expected the president to speak hours ago, then at 2:00. And now it's been pushed back to 4:30. Any reason for the delay and what do we expect to hear from him?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The White House hasn't given us a reason, but we do know that we're still expecting him to explain in part his decision to stick by this August 31 deadline, which, of course, is just one week from today, to have the U.S. evacuate all U.S. citizens and allies out of Afghanistan.

That's when those troops will be expected to leave. And, of course, that's not a process you can just make a decision in one day. It involves a lot of effort to get those troops out of Afghanistan, in addition to their equipment and their weapons as well. So, it's not just a simple decision.

And I think that is why you saw President Biden explaining that to world leaders today, because the military had essentially advised him that they needed to know by today whether or not he wanted to extend that deadline or stand by it.

And so, during this call with these G7 leaders earlier today, it was closed doors, but, according to the readouts that we have gotten of it, President Biden cited the security risk as to why he wants to stick by that deadline, saying that he believes the longer the U.S. stays there, the higher the risk of a terrorist attack becomes.

And these world leaders wanted to see the president extend this deadline because they don't think it's enough time to finish all of these evacuations by then. And, of course, once the U.S. goes, that is when NATO goes as well, given the U.S. right now is the one controlling the airport and the air traffic.

And so that's been a big concern, but it doesn't seem like, on this call, President Biden completely ruled out extending this deadline. He did tell them that he has asked the Pentagon to prepare contingency plans if they do make a decision to extend it past August 31.

Whether or not it actually reaches that remains to be seen. And I'm told that European allies asked the president to consider every possibility in which they could extend this deadline, given that is the timeline they believe they're working with.

But, Victor and Alisyn, you just pointed out, the Taliban is the other factor in this, because, so far, the U.S. says they have been cooperating with what's happening and letting Americans and previously some nationals through these checkpoints to get to the airport, but now they're saying no Afghan nationals can make it to the airport.

That is going to be a concern, not just for world leaders, but also for Democratic lawmakers here in Washington, who say they also think that this deadline needs to be extended.

So we will be waiting to hear from President Biden on his rationale, what he thinks is the best path forward, what they are taking on this, and, of course, what his response is to these world leaders and to these Democrats who say he needs to extend it.

BLACKWELL: All right, Kaitlan Collins for us there at the White House.

Kaitlan, thank you.

[15:05:00]

The Taliban is now drawing a hard line on Afghans, as we said, trying to flee the country.

CAMEROTA: Today, the group just announced that it will not allow Afghans to leave the country and claims that no citizens will be targeted or harmed if they stay, regardless of what they did in the past.

Let's bring in Nic Robertson.

Nic, this is -- it sounds like the Taliban in this announcement is reneging on their deal that these Special Immigrant Visa holders would be allowed to leave on these planes by August 31. I mean, this is horrible news for the people who have been hiding in their homes and trying to make it to the airport.

Now what?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Those very people who aspire to the sort of society that we have here, that that we have -- as the international community, have been able to help bring them in Afghanistan, the doctors, the engineers, the academics, these are the people who have assisted us.

These are the people that want to leave. And these are precisely the people that the Taliban are now saying, no, you can't leave. We need you to help build the country. They're against the fact that the United States, they say, has been encouraging them to leave.

So this is a very difficult moment. This is the first time it appears that we are now facing a crunch point between what the United States and the international community -- this is a priority out of the G7, a priority as expressed by the European Union today as well, to get all of these Afghans that want to leave out, even beyond that August 31 deadline.

Undoubtedly, the Taliban understand what will happen in Kabul, as we get closer to that August 31 deadline. They fear, and they have said this, they fear stampedes, they fear a lot of people rushing towards the airport. And they are stopping that.

This is what we have seen in the past with the Taliban. The Taliban have said, this go-round, they will be different, they have changed. But when they apply their rules and their controls, these are very, very blunt instruments.

What we're witnessing here, by them closing the road, that's them saying, we're going to make the airport safe, but, by virtue of that, it's also going against what the international community wants. We have very few points of leverage over them.

So when you see Taliban on the streets hitting people with the butts of their rifles or whipping them with these short whips on the streets, that's actually how they enforce the measures they want to enforce.

So does that look different to what it looked like 20-something years ago? Not so much. That's how they do control of the population. What other differences are there going to be? It's absolutely not clear. It's very clear the international community today has made this clear in the G7 that the relationship with the Taliban going forward is going to be conditions-based.

And as of right now, those conditions, with the Taliban blocking access to the airport, have just made a very bad turn for the worse.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

Nic, again, we're waiting for the president in about 90 minutes to defend this decision. World leaders were critical of the president's, I guess, handling of the withdrawal. Has there been reaction thus far to his holding to that August 31 deadline?

ROBERTSON: You know, I think this was built in.

We heard it from the British defense secretary early this morning, saying that he didn't expect President Biden to change his position, because of the new security concerns around the airport. The Europeans, the other members of the G7 know that they cannot do this lift alone in Afghanistan.

The other members of NATO know that the United States is the biggest contributor financially and militarily, in all ways. So, there's been, I think, a built-in resignation and acceptance, although there has been pressure politically on whether it's Boris Johnson, who chaired the G7 today, or Emmanuel Macron, the French president, who said that he wanted more time for these evacuations to go ahead.

There's a political reality that they're up against here, and that is their biggest, most powerful ally isn't willing to do it, and they can't do it alone. So they're literally -- quite literally going to live with it and take the political consequences.

How they are trying to mitigate what is happening, they are committing money, they say, to countries in the region to contain and look after refugees that are expected to flow from Afghanistan. The U.N. today said that there were 3.5 million people displaced in Afghanistan and they expect many of those to try to leave the country.

The European Union in particular is most concerned about a huge flux of refugees. It's very destabilizing in Europe. We saw what happened when many refugees fled the Syrian war in 2015.

So, the Europeans, I think, are now resigned to the fact they cannot control this situation in Afghanistan, but are going to try to put financial resources in to contain it in the region.

BLACKWELL: All right, Nic Robertson for us.

Nic, thank you.

[15:10:00]

President Biden on this August 31 deadline with the withdrawal from U.S. troops in Afghanistan, he made it clear that his decision was driven by security risks.

Let's bring in now CNN national security correspondent Kylie Atwood.

And, Kylie, we know that the Taliban is not the only variable that must be navigated, not the only group that is of concern in Afghanistan. What are you hearing about that and the others?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes, that's right.

There is a persistent threat from ISIS-K -- that is a terrorist group in Afghanistan -- facing the airport right now. We have heard that repeatedly from folks at the Pentagon, from folks at the State Department. It is a risk that President Biden is acutely aware of.

And the reason for that is because, essentially, the airport is the only means by which to get Americans, to get Afghans out of the country. And, of course, there are thousands of U.S. troops there right now.

So, the fear is that the security risks at the airport are front and center right here. And if there is that threat from ISIS-K that is persistent, that is something that is factoring into President Biden's decision to double down on getting U.S. troops, getting the whole operation out of the country by August 31.

Now, the other thing to consider here is that the Taliban is now saying things like they're not going to allow Afghans to go to the airport, that they want the U.S. to leave the country by August 31. As they are saying those things that are making it more challenging for the Biden administration to have many options here, the Biden administration officials are also in constant contact with Taliban officials on the ground.

Listen to what the Pentagon said about that earlier today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN KIRBY, PENTAGON PRESS SECRETARY: We are in daily communication with the Taliban about the security situation at the airport now.

We want to preserve as much capability as long as we can to continue to conduct evacuations, while safely removing our people and our equipment, all at the same time. That's our focus right now, is on properly executing the mission and effectively and safely drawing it down.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ATWOOD: And as you hear him say effectively and safely drawing down that mission, the Pentagon also said that they would need at least several days to draw down the military troops, the equipment on the ground.

So, as this is a very active operation to evacuate as many people as possible, it's also going to have to turn very quickly into an operation to get the U.S. military presence out of the country and do so safely.

CAMEROTA: Kylie Atwood, thank you for the reporting.

BLACKWELL: Let's discuss now with CNN intelligence and security analyst Bob Baer. He's a former CIA operative.

Bob, the degree to which the Taliban has now controlled major elements of this, they have said that we will not allow Afghans to leave after the 31st, in fact, we're not going to allow them to pass through the roads, what does that mean for the evacuation, for all the people who are hiding out in cities across that country trying to get to that airport?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE AND SECURITY ANALYST: Well, Victor, there's (AUDIO GAP) we can do about it.

(AUDIO GAP) is the Taliban (AUDIO GAP) country. At any moment, we have to understand they could close Kabul Airport. All they would need to do is put a couple of mortars in the middle of it. C-17s would turn around and have to leave. That's their protocol.

So the Taliban are calling the shots. And there's nothing we can do. If they say we have to be out by the 31st, that's what we're going to have to do, unless we were to re-invade Afghanistan, which I don't see coming.

CAMEROTA: Bob, that's so hard for Americans to hear, because we're -- America that has the biggest, greatest military in the world. That's obviously Americans' pride.

And how can the Taliban be calling the shots? After 20 years, why can't the U.S. say, no, we're not ready to leave, we need another week to get everybody out?

BAER: Well, it's the logistics. It's defending that airport. We would need 10,000 troops, I would imagine, to get the complete perimeter of it. We don't have the troops right (AUDIO GAP)

We -- the president's (AUDIO GAP) not going to do it. I don't even know if the American people would stand for putting that number of troops back in Afghanistan. This is a group that -- it's a guerrilla force that's been fighting since the Soviet invasion since 1979.

They know what they're doing. All these 20 years, they have been waiting for the right time to come back. And they're well-prepared.

It's a serious force. I mean, clearly, the United States could beat the Taliban, could retake Kabul, but this president is not going to do it. And, like I said, the American people wouldn't put up with it.

BLACKWELL: Bob, I wonder your reaction to the reporting that the CIA director, William Burns, was face to face in Kabul meeting with one of the leaders of the Taliban, the co-founder there, Abdul Ghani Baradar.

[15:15:10] And then, after that meeting, there is no extension, the Taliban shuts down the road, they will not be allowing Afghans to get out. Can you glean from that, that this negotiation, that meeting was a failure? Or what do you take away from it?

BAER: Oh, I think it was a failure.

(AUDIO GAP) forget that the Taliban, the CIA has run back channels into (AUDIO GAP) going back to the early (AUDIO GAP) since its founding. The CIA knows the Taliban the best.

In fact, we provide (AUDIO GAP) the original (AUDIO GAP) for it. We supported the Afghan resistance in the '80s. So, we do know it. We do know the people, and we do know Baradar, the head -- the de facto head of the Taliban.

And, clearly, what the CIA director went in and said, hey, can we -- give us a couple more weeks? And he said, no, get out. And that was the last message. And so he had to leave. He did the best he could.

CAMEROTA: Bob, originally, I think President Biden had said when he was interviewed, had said that I think his estimate was something like 70,000 Afghan allies, the translators, the fixers, the helpers that we were going to try to -- that the U.S. was going to try to get out and that they were going to try to secure Special Immigrant Visas for.

Yesterday -- in the past 24 hours, 21,000 people were evacuated from the Kabul Airport. That's a Herculean effort. That was huge. But if it's over now, if it's over for the Afghans to get out, is that -- are we just supposed to accept that? Is that -- is it over today, that all of those -- whichever helpers haven't gotten out as of 3:00 p.m. this afternoon, it's over?

BAER: Well, no.

The Taliban are bribable. If we were to (AUDIO GAP) offer them money to let people out, either through Tajikistan or through Peshawar, we could probably arrange it.

We could (AUDIO GAP) crush economically the Taliban and Afghanistan.

This message needs (AUDIO GAP) delivered that if you start beheading people again, retaliating against people, you're going to go down with it. So, that is the in extremis to save these people.

I don't know, of course, what's going on, communication with the Taliban. But that's what I would tell them. We will come after you if you touch these people.

CAMEROTA: Bob Baer, we always appreciate talking to you. Thank you.

BLACKWELL: Thank you, Bob.

BLACKWELL: When we come back, newly released data shows the coronavirus vaccine's ability to prevent infection is dropping, especially when it comes to the Delta variant, but good news when it comes to death and hospitalization.

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[15:22:30]

BLACKWELL: A new study from the CDC shows vaccine effectiveness wanes against the Delta variant, but being fully vaccinated still reduces your risk by two-thirds.

Now, the study, which included 4,000 front-line workers, showed weakening protection against both asymptomatic and symptomatic infection within the context of the Delta variant, from 91 percent effectiveness prior to Delta to 66 percent with Delta.

CAMEROTA: And now that the FDA has granted that full approval for the Pfizer vaccine, Dr. Anthony Fauci says the U.S. has the potential to gain control over COVID-19 by spring of next year.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: We hope we will be there at the time frame that I mentioned correctly being the spring of 2022, but there's no guarantee, because it's up to us.

If we keep lingering without getting those people vaccinated that should be vaccinated, this thing could linger on, leading to the development of another variant, which could complicate things.

So it's within our power to get this under control, and that is to get vaccinated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Roughly 90 million Americans still need to get their shot.

Dr. Ali Khan is the dean of the University of Nebraska's Medical Center's College of Public Health.

Dr. Khan, great to see you.

Well, this new study and information out of the CDC sure explains a lot. If the effectiveness of the vaccine because of the Delta variant has dropped from 91 percent to 66 percent, is that why we're seeing this spate of breakthrough cases?

DR. ALI KHAN, FORMER CDC OFFICIAL: Thank you, Alisyn. Always a pleasure.

So this study is consistent with every -- three or four other studies that CDC has recently presented. The bigger point here is, the vaccine is still two-thirds protected against infection and still in the '90s for severe disease. So the vaccine still works really well.

And I think, long term, or, currently, the bigger issue is to get to 90 million vaccinated than getting a third dose into other people.

CAMEROTA: Yes. Let me be clear. I always wanted to avoid hospitalization and death, OK?

BLACKWELL: It's a good plan.

CAMEROTA: And the vaccine -- that has been my plan all along. Thus far, I have fulfilled that plan.

And the vaccine still protects against that. But just for people who are wondering, oh, why are these breakthroughs happening, is it because you're seeing this waning effectiveness with the Delta variant?

KHAN: So, the Delta variant is more infection. So we have to be careful about being waning -- that this is due to waning immunity.

[15:25:00]

The Delta variant, number one, is more infectious, and, number two, there's a lot more disease out there. So, even if the vaccine is just as good as ever, if you surround vaccinated people with lots more disease, they're more likely to get infected.

And then the final thing is -- and we know this happens with other infectious diseases and vaccines -- people think they're protected with the vaccine, so they put themselves at a little higher risk than they would otherwise.

So there's a lot of other reasons why we may be seeing this lower effectiveness than, yes, the vaccine is waning.

BLACKWELL: And yet we have seen the uptick recently of people getting the shots, getting the vaccine, so that's good news. But there's still tens of millions of people, Dr. Khan, who are not getting it.

And Dr. Fauci says, that's the path to getting us to under control, getting COVID under control by the spring. If that's the way we get there, what's the value of that prediction, because people aren't getting it?

KHAN: So, I'm very, very careful about predicting times when this is going to be over or herd immunity levels.

I think the issue you have is spot on, Victor, which is, how do we get these 90,000 -- 90 million people vaccinated? The FDA just helped out by approving the vaccine. So any caution for people who are worried about safety, now many of them will feel better that it's safe to use.

This will also allow more mandates across the states to vaccinate people. I think we need to layer on incentives. And remember that vaccination is our key strategy, but we need to continue to use other strategies to protect ourselves and protect our kids, such as masks.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Khan, I was very interested to see where you were spending your time today.

BLACKWELL: Oh. CAMEROTA: You put on Twitter that you went to a very interesting pro- choice, pro-pharma, anti-vaccine, pro-gun and an pro-whiskey protest. I mean, that covers a lot of bases right there.

And you say you met some nice people to better understand the lack of vaccine confidence and learn the power of disinformation.

What did you learn at that protest?

KHAN: So, what I learned at this protest is that people were protesting for different reasons. Most of them were not health care workers, which is what this was billed as, but, most importantly, how misinformed people are about key scientific issues about the vaccine.

For example, a number of people I spoke to said, yes, if you get vaccinated, there are all of these deaths that are being hidden by the government.

And, no, we -- there's no hidden deaths from people who are getting vaccinated. We know what the side effects of this vaccine are. So, it was interesting to just see the misinformation that is in these communities, and how we need to tackle this misinformation.

I have said so many times this isn't a public health problem anymore. It's a communication and a political problem at this point.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Khan, we know now that Pfizer has been -- received this full FDA approval, that physicians, pediatricians can, technically, give this to children under 12 off-label.

What's the advice? I know that the American Association of Pediatrics comes out with advice for doctors potentially giving it to young children, and we know parents really want that protection for their children.

KHAN: So, Victor, and what -- this is true for all drugs, that a physician can use the off-label.

But, as a pediatrician, also, I would be very careful about using this for children less than 12, because we don't know what the right dose is yet, right? So it's not as simple. And so the two mRNA vaccines are trying different doses. So I think we just need to wait to figure out what the right dose is before we start just willy-nilly guessing what the dose may be.

BLACKWELL: And that's the advice from the American Academy of Pediatrics.

Although you can do it now, waiting for these trials to be complete to figure out just how perfect or just the window for the doses for 5- year-olds, 6-year-olds, that's what physicians should do.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Khan, what mask do you have for us today?

BLACKWELL: I know it's fly.

(LAUGHTER)

KHAN: Mask on, America.

BLACKWELL: Oh.

CAMEROTA: Nice.

(CROSSTALK)

KHAN: We're doing "Star Wars" today.

CAMEROTA: "Star Wars." Nice.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: That's a good-looking mask right there.

Dr. Khan, thank you.

KHAN: Thanks, Alisyn. Thanks, Victor.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

KHAN: Be safe.

CAMEROTA: You too.

All right, well, from dropping F-bombs to starting to vote.

BLACKWELL: What a transition.

CAMEROTA: House progressives and moderates are ending their standoff and are closer to delivering a major piece of President Biden's agenda.

We are live on Capitol Hill with all of the colorful language next.

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