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Concern about Attacks at Kabul Airport; Biden Sticks to August 31st Deadline; David Sanger is Interviewed about Afghanistan; Johnson & Johnson Booster Data; Dr. Carlos del Rio is Interviewed about COVID. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired August 25, 2021 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:35]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Good morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

Breaking news this hour.

CNN has learned that the U.S. has a, quote, very specific threat stream on plotted attacks against crowds outside the Kabul Airport, meaning to heighten concerns about security there. The U.S. believes the terror group ISIS-K wants to create mayhem at the airport, something that the U.S. and the Taliban both want to avoid. And the U.S. has credible intelligence that ISIS has both the capability and planning to carry out such attacks. All this according to a U.S. defense official.

President Biden acknowledged the growing threats of violence around the airport, part of the reason he cites for announcing he is standing firm on that fast-approaching August 31st deadline for the withdrawal of all U.S. troops from Afghanistan. It is making the rapid pace of airlifts out of the country more critical than ever. The White House has just announced that about 19,000 people were evacuated in just the past 24 hours. You can see some of them going there. In total, more than 82,000 people have been airlifted over the course of the past 11 days.

We are expecting an update on that evacuation effort from Secretary of State Antony Blinken just a few hours from now. We will bring that to you live.

Let's begin, though, on the ground at the scene.

CNN's Sam Kiley is on the phone on a C-17 about to take off from Kabul.

Sam, that plane is going to be loaded with refugees as well. Tell us what you're seeing right now.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (via telephone): Well, right now, Jim, I'm watching a Royal Air Force aircraft, or the back end of it, closing up to take a couple of hundred refugees. That's going to be taxing away. And then we're going to be loaded with about 450 are going to be joining myself and other journalists who are also being evacuated at this stage as part of the military draw down here.

They will be flown to Qatar where they are likely to be held for many, many hours, we understand, on the ground, awaiting clearance. This has been one of the real issues in terms of the evacuation protests is it's been highly successful now in getting people out of Kabul. It's a lot less successful from a humanitarian point of view the other day (INAUDIBLE) later.

I think that you were just reporting there, Jim, about if ISIS-K (INAUDIBLE) of intelligence (INAUDIBLE) really since the very beginning and indeed a serious concern for the Taliban. As we discussed before, Jim, the Taliban, two days ago, actually arrested four ISIS-K members who were filming potential locations for exactly the sort of bomb attacks that you were just reporting there in your introduction.

SCIUTTO: Sam, question for you. I've been speaking to Afghans who work for the U.S., who have been trying desperately to get to the airport over the last 24 hours, and they can't get there. The Taliban controls the entry points. They've been beating them and others. Of course, you and CNN has reported that previously.

Based on your vantage point over the last 24 hours, have some been able to get to the airport, and how exactly?

KILEY: Jim, really small numbers. There's only about -- as of this morning, there were only about a thousand passengers, evacuees waiting to go. That is, obviously, drastically -- that's drastically down from the 4,000, 5,000 that they would have ready to go most days. And, of course, down from the (INAUDIBLE) was over 20,000 people backlogged here. Now there's only a thousand. And that is, I think, indubitably because of the Taliban have taken access to the airport because Afghan, potentially even those with special immigration visas. And that is now being highly effective. There are very few numbers indeed getting through to the gates.

And yesterday there were 9,000 at the gates in the morning, but (INAUDIBLE) I think not exactly sure of the figure, but close to 12,000 I think (INAUDIBLE). And so, clearly, they have been getting a few more people in but it's very difficult indeed.

And (INAUDIBLE) going on (INAUDIBLE) to go and get pockets of people when they've been able to be identified and when safe passage has been possible or when it's been possible for security officials to get to them or find a method, a secret method by which they could organize that without causing friction with the Taliban.

[9:05:18]

Inevitably, I think, and tragically, there will be people who can't get to the airport because they're Afghans, even though they've been working very closely with the United States. I mean, inevitably, I think, in the end, there may well be some Americans that get left behind, possibly as a result of their own choices. But there have been a lot of urgent messages going out from the evacuating authorities as we speak, the people running the evacuations here to the State Department -- from the State Department, effectively, to known (ph) Americans and others in (INAUDIBLE) to get to the air field as soon as you can. But that's a lot easier said than done when the Taliban cooperation seems to be falling away, at least in terms of allowing the movement of human beings here.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KILEY: So the numbers are very significantly down.

SCIUTTO: The sad fact is, many of them, they're on their own.

Sam Kiley, I'm glad you're safe. Safe flight home.

Let's go to CNN international security editor Nick Paton Walsh. He's in Qatar, where many of the evacuees have been going.

First, I do want to talk about this very specific threat stream that a defense official has told me about on planned attacks against crowds outside Kabul Airport. It's been a continuing concern as you and I have talked about. They say they have the capability and the plans to do so. What does this mean for the evacuation efforts?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes, I mean, look, I think if you've been around the outskirts of the airport, seeing the Taliban checkpoints, seeing the panic, the crush, the difficulty in getting people over the gates, the idea of adding ISIS-K potentially detonating a suicide bomb or something in those crowds is either not the main thing you're worried about because of all those other issues, or a massive potential extra threat that changes everything. So ISIS-K have been a substantial problem in Afghanistan for a long time, blamed for a lot of the most savage attacks we've seen in Kabul. So certainly they are a group with a track history of this.

How they get their way through the Taliban checkpoints there, how they maneuver themselves, that is unclear. But it's certainly playing heavily into the minds of U.S. officials, be in no doubt about that.

But I have to say, if you put together all the other things they have to worry about now, particularly their own evacuation of their own troops and how that will function over the days ahead, the enormous pressure put on their soldiers there to put their gear in the planes, to leave behind nothing that could be of use to any potential adversary, that, of course, is just another dynamic in the issue to be concerned about.

This morning I was told by a source close to the airport situation that there are about a thousand people on the airbase at that particular point. That's not necessarily suggesting that ambition have massively dropped, because they're being taken out very fast when they get on. But it does also appear that the numbers getting on have reduced. That's because the scenes at Abby (ph) Gate and the other gates around have been increasingly chaotic. The Taliban do appear to be stopping some SIV applicants getting through. It's total chaos, to be honest, so I also hear of some being escorted on, some getting on through their own ingenuity and others simply being stopped.

Also, to the south of that airport, there does appear at the main entrance to be some sort of Taliban negotiated entrance through which convoys that have had prior arrangements can get through and then on to the U.S. side. So there are ways in. But from what I understand, the numbers getting on have dropped a lot. And the fact I think that you're seeing Sam and other journalists being flown out at this point may suggest that we're into a different phase of this operation, Jim.

SCIUTTO: It's a fair point. I've been hearing similar.

Nick Paton Walsh in Qatar, thanks so much.

This afternoon we will hear directly from Secretary of State Antony Blinken on the evacuation mission, which includes the efforts not only to get Afghans who worked for the U.S., but Americans in Afghanistan out. The president urging, quote, the sooner we can finish the better.

CNN's Jeremy Diamond is at the White House.

Jeremy, the sad fact is, if finishing is the goal, that's not going to happen. Many will be left behind. I've been speaking to folks all night who can't get to the airport. Is the White House aware of that? Are they willing to live with that, in effect?

JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, the White House press secretary, Jen Psaki, was pressed on this very point yesterday, especially in the wake of the Taliban saying they were not going to let Afghans go forward through these checkpoints to the airport. She insisted that the White House is coordinating with the Taliban and that SIV applicants will be allowed to go through.

But the reality on the ground, as you say, Jim, is very, very different. Even reports of green card holders not being allowed through these checkpoints, not able to get to the airport. And as this mission begins to shift, as we are seeing from an evacuation mission to withdrawing those U.S. forces who are all supposed to come back within the next six days according to the president's orders, we are going to see some people left behind.

[09:10:12]

A senior administration official acknowledging as much, that there are some deserving Afghans who will be left behind.

Now, the president, though, is making clear that his rationale for doing this withdrawal by August 31st is based on those evolving security concerns that you're reporting on. Listen to the president just yesterday.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm determined to ensure that we complete our mission, this mission. I'm also mindful of the increasing risks.

Every day we're on the ground is another day we know that ISIS-K is seeking to target the airport and attack both U.S. and allied forces and innocent civilians.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

DIAMOND: And clearly here the president's nightmare would be to see a terrorist attack on these civilians around the airport, potentially hurting U.S. forces as well that are on the ground.

But, listen, the question is, how many more people can the U.S. evacuate before it needs to withdraw all of its forces. And, remember, the president did commit last week to getting every Afghan who helped the United States who's eligible for SIV visas out of the country. It is hard to see exactly how that happens.

We are, lastly, Jim, expecting to hear from Secretary Blinken today, who's going to give an estimate on the number of Americans who have gotten out so far and those who still remain in Afghanistan. That's going to be a key figure.

Jim.

Many remain, sadly. That's a fact.

Jeremy Diamond, thank you.

SCIUTTO: Joining me now to discuss the broader picture, David Sanger, White House and national security correspondent for "The New York Times."

David, always good to have you.

Before we get to the evacuation efforts, I want to begin with you with another headline this morning, and that is the Taliban telling Afghan women in the simplest terms to stay home, they claim until they can establish security measures. But I wonder, in reality, knowing the Taliban's medieval view of the world and of women and women's rights, if this is a taste of things to come.

SANGER: Well, we certainly got to think that that is going to be what's -- what's coming, Jim. It was interesting how they worded that. They said that they wanted to have women out, ultimately, but that they hadn't claimed their own forces and did not have the discipline right now to treat them properly. I think that tells you just about everything that you need to hear about how this is probably playing out, outside of Kabul and outside of areas where there are cameras.

Now, the Taliban are walking this fine line here right now where they know the way they want to rule the country, but they also know that they need the funds from the west, and so they need to appear to be different from the way they were 20 years ago. I'm not sure they can hold that together for very long.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Well, listen, I was talking to a woman who is eight months pregnant, overnight, trying to get to the airport and the Taliban was beating her with bicycle chains. So their words and their actions, the actions are alarming.

I want to ask you about this deadline, August 31st. It's coming. It does appear by the moves that are being made now, journalists out of the country, some U.S. soldiers being pulled already, that, in fact, the evacuations will at least taper off before that date.

Is the president right that it's too risky to extend it, to extend that deadline?

SANGER: Well, certainly there is huge risk in extending it, and there is risk every day. I think everybody is sort of amazed that there hasn't been an attack on the outside of the -- the crowds outside the airport because it's not all that difficult, one would think, for ISIS-K or others to pull that off.

I think the president was caught in a vice here. I mean clearly they started too late with the evacuations because they thought they had the luxury of time. Now they've been trying to make up for that. We wrote in today's "Times" about the president's desire to have the greatest airlift in history. But we now know that airlift will be short in duration. The Berlin airlift, which he mentioned not long ago, lasted for nearly a year. This one is going to have lasted for about two weeks. And while they've gotten a lot of people out --

SCIUTTO: Yes.

SANGER: All the reporting we've just been hearing suggests those numbers are about to diminish dramatically because people simply can't get inside the walls.

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this question, alternatives, right. There was a view -- I've talked about it a lot on this broadcast, General Milley and others to say, finger in the dam. Keep 2,500 forces on the ground. It's a counter terror presence. It allows confidence for the Afghan military as well as for the government. Prop up the house of cards, in effect.

But Eva Dalder (ph) and others made a pointed today that that status quo was not realistic because the Taliban had held off attacking U.S. forces by agreement. And that had the U.S. stayed, in fact, it would have been a very different picture going forward.

[09:15:03]

Which do you think is correct?

SANGER: Well, I think they're probably both correct. Had we stayed, Jim, I think it might have made a significant psychological difference to the Afghan forces. Once it was clear that everybody was leaving, they saw very little reason to fight because they didn't think the backup would be there. That isn't necessarily an excuse after 20 years, it's just the reality of what happened.

That said, I think that the analysis that you heard from Eva Dalder is the same one that you and I have heard from President Biden, is that basically to make a difference you'd have to move up to 3,500 or 4,000 troops, and you would never have the right moment to leave. And so I think, you know, consistently, the president has taken the position that he's going to set a date certain because if he doesn't there is no date ever to get out.

SCIUTTO: Yes. A consistent position between Trump and Biden, Republican and Democratic president.

SANGER: That's right.

SCIUTTO: David Sanger, thanks, as always.

SANGER: Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Catch-22. You know the phrase. It originated with Joseph Heller's book about World War II, but it fits what we're witnessing right now in Afghanistan.

All night I've been speaking with Afghans who worked for the U.S. and are now trying to flee the country to save their lives, as well as organizations trying to help evacuate them.

The Biden administration says it will attempt to evacuate all Afghans who worked for the U.S. and want to leave. However, to take up that offer, most must get to the airport and those evacuation planes on their own. Their freedom and their lives depend on one gate, to one airport, in one city, all surrounded and controlled by the Taliban.

What does that look like? Begging, pleading, bribing, fighting their way through Taliban checkpoint while Taliban fighters beat them and often block them entirely.

I spoke with a woman last night who is eight months pregnant, who tried for hours to run that gauntlet, and, understandably, gave up. She was beaten with a bicycle chain. Her husband told her he'd rather be killed by the Taliban than put his family through that again.

So that is the reality. A "Hunger Games" fight to the exits, or you're left behind. A Catch-22 for a new war, and a new time.

New details released this morning on the Johnson & Johnson booster shot. There is some promising data. We're going to have that for you.

Plus, the number of children testing positive for COVID-19 is now at levels not seen since last winter. Experts warn it will only get worse.

And Speaker Nancy Pelosi, she's at the podium right now. This after moderate Democrats coalesced around her strategy on the president's economic agenda. So what's next? How fast will it move? We'll see what more Speaker Pelosi has to say about the path forward.

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[09:22:14] SCIUTTO: Here at home, encouraging news this morning as the nation tries to fight the delta-fueled COVID surge. Johnson & Johnson says that its preliminary data showed that people who received booster doses of its one-shot COVID-19 vaccine had a big spike in antibodies.

CNN's senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen has been looking at the data here.

This is important because it shows that not only one vaccine, if that booster, you can really boost your immunity to this.

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: That's right. Let's go over a little bit what the Johnson & Johnson vaccine is. It's been a while, I think, since we've spoken about it.

So, Johnson & Johnson has been called the one-shot wonder. You only need one shot. But, remember, in their clinical trials, it was 66 percent effective against moderate and severe COVID. Good, but not as good as the other two vaccines that at that time were more around 95 percent.

So let's take a look at what this study did. It was a small study. What they did is they give everyone one shot, waited six months later, and antibodies increased nine-fold. In other words, from the one shot, about 28 days later, antibodies reached a certain level. But when they waited 28 days after the second shot, antibodies increased nine times where they were shortly after that first shot. That really is saying something.

Now, Jim, I'll add here that one-shot wonder, you know, several public health experts who we've talked to said it didn't quite work out that way. Only 14 million Americans have received Johnson & Johnson. Compare that, say, to Pfizer, which is nearly 100 million. Johnson & Johnson was supposed to be a vaccine that would be used around the world. One shot doesn't need to be kept at these really cold temperatures. It hasn't quite worked out that way. We'll see if this changes anything.

SCIUTTO: For sure. Listen, options are good. Just got to get more people vaccinated.

OK, let's talk about children. Many children -- cases in children, of course, who can't be vaccinated unless they're above -- 12 and above, are now reaching levels we haven't seen in months. Where is that and where is it expected to go because we're not even into wintertime and most kids aren't back at school yet?

COHEN: That's right. So these numbers are really quite alarming. Let's take a look at what has happened, even just over the course of the summer. If you take a look at the week of August 12th, there were about 180,000 new cases among children. Compare that to the week of July 15th, not even a month before, only 38,000 new cases in that week. That really tells you something.

Now, some people might look at these numbers and say, oh, does it really matter? Children, you know, very -- a tiny percentage of those end up in the hospital or end up dying. That is true. But the more cases you have, the more hospitalized children you're going to have. The more dead children you're going to have. And as Dr. Rochelle Walensky, the head of the CDC put it to a member of Congress, children are not supposed to die. You shouldn't even have one child dead from this virus.

[09:25:00]

So it is worth trying to get these numbers down.

SCIUTTO: Elizabeth Cohen, thanks very much.

COHEN: Thanks.

SCIUTTO: Let's speak more with Dr. Carlos del Rio. He's the executive associate dean of the Emory University School of Medicine at Grady Health System.

Dr. del Rio, always good to have you on.

Help us understand what we're learning here about children. Listen, I've got two kids below the age of 12, not vaccinated. I don't want them to get infected, certainly, but I do look at the data and I know it's a very small percentage of children who get severe disease.

How should parents view this? Should they view this as a moment to take reasonable precautions, wear a mask in school, for instance, watch for news of approval for a vaccine for 12 and under, or do they need to look at this, in your view, more -- with more concern?

DR. CARLOS DEL RIO, EXECUTIVE ASSOCIATE DEAN, EMORY UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AT GRADY HEALTH SYSTEM: Jim, I would think about it the way you would think, for example, about letting your kids walk to school or, you know, drive their bike to school. You want to, you know, allow them to do that, but you want to do it in the safest possible way, right? You want to put a helmet on them.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

DEL RIO: You want to tell them how -- when to cross the street, et cetera. I would think about it the same way. The best way to protect children that are yet not candidates to be vaccinated, those 12 and under, are to do two things. Number one, to have all the adults around them vaccinated.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

DEL RIO: Anybody over the age of 16 around them should be vaccinated.

And, number two, we need to make sure that everybody who is with them and those kids are also wearing a mask. And that's why just -- you know, it baffles me that we have had so many controversies about masking in school because if I was sending -- if I have kids that age and I was sending them to school, I would want them masking. And I would also ask their teachers and anybody who's with them to also be masking. Trying to reduce the risk to those kids is critically important.

SCIUTTO: I mean that -- I'm with you. I mean the idea that people, either for politics or not understanding the science or refusing to mask or get vaccinated themselves, putting kids who can't be vaccinated at risk just blows my mind.

Let's talk about the news about the J&J booster because the J&J shot, it's a small percentage of the many hundreds of millions of doses now put out, Pfizer and Moderna in this country, you know, far in the lead. That's it. It's important. It's one shot. Should this give us some encouragement here because now you have another option, with the booster, that reliably, according to the data, fights back against the delta variant?

DEL RIO: Well, you know, Jim, let me start by saying that we have no clinical evidence that you're seeing more failures with just J&J than with the other vaccines. So I think we're coming to a premature conclusion. We really have no data saying those that got J&J are getting hospitalized a lot more than people that got Pfizer or Moderna. The protection is about the same. And I would not -- I'm not very concerned about that.

What we see in this study is an increase in antibodies. But, again, we need studies that tells us that that increase in antibodies translates in better protection against, you know, infection and to decrease hospitalizations and death.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

DEL RIO: And the clinical outcomes data is simply not there.

So this is encouraging news. But, again, I would be very careful about making the leap of faith saying because of this therefore that means it's going to be protective.

SCIUTTO: It's -- OK, fair enough. It's a smart point. Listen, and, by the way, having options is good, no question.

Final question, if I can. We have a lot of concerning data about what the delta variant is doing, particularly in states with low vaccination rates. We have some better news, though, right, where we see the daily average of vaccinations tweaking up, that kind of thing. We've seen a lot of school districts requiring masks as the public health guidance is.

Are you seeing any -- any data that gives you an indication that the country is responding to the delta surge in a way that should encourage us? I'm not saying the threat is gone. You get my point, though, here. Are there signs that we're getting a handle on this?

DEL RIO: Well, you know, without doubt we're seeing more and more people vaccinated. But, again, the people vaccinated today are not going to be protected until six weeks from now. So it's going to take some time.

But I think people are taking delta seriously. I think people are starting to realize that this is something that they need to be concerned about. I am hoping that as a result of that we're starting to see maybe a little flattening of the curve, of, you know, delta increases in some places. Even Florida is beginning to see a little bit of flattening which may be encouraging news.

The reality is that delta is better. And I want to reassure people that if you've been vaccinated, you really are in good shape, even with the lower protection against infection from delta. There may be breakthrough cases but you're unlikely to be hospitalized or dead.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

DEL RIO: The problem is people that are not vaccinated. And if I was not vaccinated, I would really be scared about this strain. This is really highly transmissible and you can get. You can end up being very sick. And I can tell you, we have our hospitals full of people who have not been vaccinated who are in the ICU, who are on ventilators. And this is really a -- this is a tragedy, right?

SCIUTTO: The vast -- the data shows that the vast, vast, vast majority of folks getting sick or hospitalized are the unvaccinated.

Dr. Carlos del Rio, thanks very much.

DEL RIO: Happy to be with you.

SCIUTTO: Just moments ago, Speaker Nancy Pelosi addressing the visit to Afghanistan of two members of Congress in recent days.

[09:30:03]

Let's have a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: When did you learn that Congressman Moulton, Congressman Meijer had traveled to Afghanistan.