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U.S. Defense Official Says, Very Specific Threat Stream on Planned Attacks against Crowds Outside Kabul Airport; Biden Sticks to August 31 Afghanistan Exit, Citing Security Risk; Delta Announces New Policies for Unvaccinated Workers. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired August 25, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[10:00:00]

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: Good morning to you. I'm Jim Sciutto.

This is the breaking news we are following this hour. Growing worries of violence as evacuations continue from Afghanistan. CNN has learned the morning that the U.S. has a very specific threat stream on planned attacks against crowds outside the Kabul airport leading to heightened concerns about security. The U.S. believes the terror group, ISIS-K, as it's known, wants to create mayhem at the airport, something both the U.S. and the Taliban want to avoid. The U.S. has credible intelligence that ISIS has both the capability and planning to carry out such attacks. This according to a U.S. defense official I have spoken to.

Security concerns around the airport are one of the major reasons President Biden cited for sticking to his August 31st deadline for the withdrawal of all U.S. forces. The White House just announced that about 19,000 people were evacuated in the past 24 hours, people like those you're seeing there. More than 82,000 people in total now have been airlifted over the course of the last 11 days. We are expecting a live update on the evacuation effort from that Pentagon podium this hour. We're going to bring it to you live. And we're covering all the fast-moving developments out of Afghanistan.

Let's begin with CNN International Security Editor Nick Paton Walsh. He is in Qatar where many of these evacuees are going. And also about the U.S. having a very specific (INAUDIBLE), we also have Atika Shubert at Ramstein.

Nick, I do want to start with you. This threat in and around the airport, it has been of concern for a number of days. It has been described to me as acute, credible and specific. What are you hearing?

NICK PATON WALSH, CNN INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR: Yes. I mean, look, I can only agree with the notion that ISIS-K, if they're able to launch attacks on American citizens or those affiliated with them, would be a serious and credible threat. I have to wonder how it fits into the broader kind of threat matrix, if you were, of the people on the airport, currently dealing with crowd crushes outside, of desperate people trying to get on. They've had that for a while, the threats of Taliban running their own checkpoints, filtering out who they do and don't want to get up to the airport, the threats of possible miscommunication.

The southern entrance of the airport where I understand the Taliban are allowing on pre-approved convoys of vehicles that then connects with the U.S. troops further north of them onto the airfield and then, of course, the broader real threat here, I have to say, and that is the deadline giving by the Taliban that this all has to end by the 31st of August. I have to tell you, that field, that is the thing driving policy here and the short window. Of course, important not to dismiss what ISIS would do if they possibly could here, a group that is responsible for many atrocities in Kabul.

But the volume of people on the airport now appears to have reduced a little, Jim. Hearing this morning, there were about 1,000 there. That's not suggesting the U.S. has suddenly run out of ambition to take people off, although there appears to be less air traffic in and out of the airfield today than previous days. We'll hear numbers shortly. A remarkable 19,000, stunning figure, released just this morning. But it may possibly suggest that those that get on are being taken off a lot quicker.

The question is, who can still get on? And as we're seeing before, it appears to be essentially about who you know. SIV applicants that they can get themselves to get may be able to get through, if they can get themselves escorted onto the airfield, then great. But it doesn't seem as though there is a fluid system. And, of course, there's always the Taliban there. So, it's very hard to hear exactly any homogenous policy for who can and can't get through. There is fear, there is relief and there is this furiously ticking clock as to how many days or hours even left for evacuees to get there. It seems pretty clear when they're there, they can get out.

But I'm also starting to get the impression too that this military operation is winding down, that they're realizing that the actual extraction of their soldiers will be a phenomenally difficult task surrounded by an insurgency they've been fighting for the past 20 years, who surely want to have that final moment of departure as infamous as possible for the United States. So, I'm sure the minds of those on the base are slowly switching towards making that as safe task for the U.S. soldiers. But, of course, still, a source close to the situation said to me they want to get as many people off as they possibly can. But they've aware this is not an indefinite process, one ending very fast. Jim?

SCIUTTO: Not indefinite and far from easy. It's dangerous. The facts, as you know, Nick, and I described outside that airport, it's a dangerous, terrifying gauntlet that people are being asked to run most of the time on their own. It's not easy at all. It's scary.

Atika Shubert, she is at Ramstein Air Base in Germany where the lucky ones are, right, the thousands of Afghans who were able to get out.

[10:05:01]

So, tell us what conditions are like there and what happens there when evacuees arrive. How long do they stay?

ATIKA SHUBERT, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, when evacuees arrive, they're given a brief security and medical check. And then they get to their temporary living quarters. Now, when I say temporary, it was supposed to be 48 hours. But the reality is the processing time is taking longer. And the conditions here are pretty basic. It's tense. These are huge military tents, so they're robust, but tents nonetheless. Most of the men are staying in the tents. There's about 40 people to a tent. And then the women and children stay on cots inside those giant airplane hangars.

Now, there are three hot meals a day that are served, there are bathrooms, but very simple washing facilities, so no real showers. And, remember, there's an army of volunteers here that are bringing in donations, diapers, clothes, also trying to keep the kids entertained as big part of it as well. There are football games, sing-a-longs and so forth.

But the biggest complaint that I hear from evacuees is the fact that they're waiting so long and don't have internet connections. So, some of them have family members in Ramstein but they can't communicate with them because they're in other camps.

The good news, however, is that the flights going to the U.S. have now sped up. They've more than doubled in the last 24 hours. And at last count, more than 2,500 evacuees have been delivered to the United States, so that is good news there, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Those are the lucky ones, many more left behind. Nick Paton Walsh, Atika Shubert, thanks very much.

Despite calls from both parties to give more time to the evacuation effort, the White House is eager to get U.S. troops away from danger in Afghanistan, including the turmoil at Kabul's airport. The president says he's committed to the mission but reliance on the Taliban, as well as safety concerns, terror concerns mean the 20-year U.S. presence in Afghanistan will end in days.

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JOE BIDEN, U.S. PRESIDENT: We are currently on a pace to finish by August the 31st. The sooner we can finish, the better. Each day of operations brings added risk to our troops, but the completion of August 31st depends upon the Taliban continuing to cooperate and allow access to the airport for those who we're transporting out and no disruptions to our operations.

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SCIUTTO: CNN's John Harwood joins us from the White House. Those words are difficult to hear, right? That, in effect, the U.S. position there now, as well as those evacuations of people, in effect, fleeing the country for their lives is dependent on cooperation from the Taliban. Do you sense the slightest of flexibility from the president, from the White House, about extending these evacuations and this deadline, or is it done? JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: No, I think there is flexibility, Jim. The president said yesterday that he'd asked the military for contingency plans in the event they need to extend the deadline. But, overall, it is a balancing test from the point of view of the White House between achieving as much of their mission as is possible, doing the best they can to get people out, 82,000, as you indicated, over the last 11 days, and avoiding catastrophe as a result of the threat stream you alluded to at the beginning of the segment, either for those near the air base trying to get out or for U.S. troops. They have not had a single U.S. casualty as they've conducted this evacuation effort over the last several weeks.

And so from the point of view of the administration, after all of the chaos and criticism they got about a botched withdrawal initially, that they believe they have turned this around, that they have successfully evacuated Americans and Afghan allies, not all of them. A senior administration official acknowledged to me last night in terms of the Afghan allies, there are a lot of deserving people who will not get out, made the argument that that would have been true at any point when the Taliban took over.

The one thing I think, Jim, would cause them to extend the deadline is if they discovered that there was a significant pocket of Americans somewhere who wanted to get out who could not. They've been trying to contact all of those people. We're going to hear from Secretary of State Tony Blinken at midday to outline this posture from the administration point of view of where Americans are, how many are left. There are several hundred Americans who are due to get out today.

But I think that all those things considered, Joe Biden is committed to his policy of getting out of Afghanistan and thinks the balance between achieving the mission and achieving safety and preventing last-minute casualties for U.S. troops dictates that August 31 withdrawal unless they find additional Americans.

SCIUTTO: John Harwood at the White House, thanks so much.

I want to show you a remarkable live picture right now.

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This is over Hamid Karzai Airport in Kabul. Just moments ago, we saw a plane take off. You can hear the call to prayer in the background. Of course, nightfall is coming. We're looking at what may be the final hours, days of the American presence there while many more Afghans wait for even the opportunity to get out of the country. We're going to keep this picture up for a moment.

This afternoon, we will hear from Secretary of State Antony Blinken on the latest on evacuation efforts, as well as the effort to make sure Americans in particular get out. The State Department says all Americans who have registered their presence in the country have been contacted and given instructions for what to do.

CNN's Kylie Atwood is at the State Department. Kylie, it's been a consistent question, exactly how many Americans are left in Afghanistan. And, by the way, we should note it's really not certain in any country -- the U.S. government is not certain how many Americans are in any country at any given time, but the situation here is critical. They've been reaching out to them. Do they now have a better handle on how many are there and how many more need to be evacuated?

KYLIE ATWOOD, CNN NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I mean, Jim, I think they have a better handle on that number, but what they're not doing is sharing that number publicly right now. So, what we do know is that there are about 4,000 American passport holders and their families who the United States has gotten out of Afghanistan. As you point, we don't know the specific number of Americans that the United States still believes are in the country and want to leave the country.

Now, the State Department has said that they have been in contact with every American who has gotten in touch with the State Department saying that they want to leave the country. And they have also said that they have made 4,000 personalized phone calls in recent days. But what we don't know is exactly, if all those phone calls have gone to Americans, if all of those Americans are still in the country, if some of those Americans have gotten out of the country, you'll recall that we first started last week with a number of 10,000 to 15,000 Americans who were believed to be in the country.

But as you note, Americans don't have to register with the State Department when they go into the country. They don't need to deregister when they leave. So, that was a really rough estimate. What we're looking to find is the number of Americans that still have to get out, because that will define when this evacuation mission is over, when they get that number to zero, of course.

SCIUTTO: We'll be watching. Kylie Atwood, thanks very much.

Joining me is Craig Whitlock, he is an Investigative Reporter for The Washington Post and author of just fascinating, you might even say, damning book, The Afghanistan Papers, a Secret History of the War, chronicles, years, frankly, of lies about how the mission was going. Craig, it's good to have you on this morning.

To the news today, is President Biden right that it's too risky to leave U.S. forces in Afghanistan after the August 31st deadline with the expectation, in effect, that the Taliban simply won't allow it and will start attacking and put those forces and others in danger?

CRAIG WHITLOCK, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER, THE WASHINGTON POST: Well, Jim, as you pointed out earlier, it's frankly risky to have U.S. troops there now. While this evacuation has been ongoing, we've had about 5,000 U.S. troops at the airport. They're protecting the airfield and they're relatively in a good position there. But every time they carry out a mission outside the airport, you have these crowds lined up outside the gates. There's just so much vulnerability there on a daily, hourly basis, whether it's from the Taliban, Islamic State or other things. There could be a firefight breakout, that's happened the other day. It could go in any direction. So, whether it's the 31st of August or not, it's risky right now.

SCIUTTO: I want to ask you this, because the administration admits publicly they're not going to be able to get every Afghan who works with Americans out of the country. They just can't do it. And I know that for a fact because I'm speaking both to Afghans in that category who are trying and just simply can't get to the airport, as well as groups that are trying to aid in the evacuations. People are going to be left behind.

What future do they face? Is the Taliban going to hunt them down and kill them? Is it as simple as that?

WHITLOCK: Well, I don't know if it's as simple as that, but those people are certainly right to be afraid. And the Taliban is going to have some real decisions to make. I think, in some ways, it's in the Taliban's interest, in part, to let a lot of people leave the country who are opposed to their rule, particularly in Kabul. They're trying to solidify control. And if there's tens of thousands or a hundred thousand people who are leaving who would otherwise be opposing the Taliban, from their perspective, that's not a bad thing.

At the same time they need people to run the Afghan government. So, if you're talking about civil servants, people running the aid organizations or programs that keep Afghans fed or paid, I think the Taliban is struggling with that right now.

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But you have to understand too, the Taliban doesn't exert complete control over its own people. So there's always a concern about revenge killings or individual feuds or things like that. So, it's going to be very volatile for a long time to come.

SCIUTTO: I'm going to set aside the politics for the moment because, as you know, there's a lot of historical revisionism going on among Republicans saying the withdrawal was a mistake after endorsing President Trump's decision -- former President Trump's, to do the same thing. So, you have two presidents, Democratic and Republican, deciding, in effect, the same thing. The question is, was there an alternative to what we're seeing now? You did have an argument from senior military officials, leave a small force, 2,500, that helps on counter-terror, it would help give confidence to the Afghan military. But you have another point of view, the fact is, that status quo was not sustainable, that the Taliban were going to sort of come at them after any deadline that was passed. What's the truth?

WHITLOCK: Well, I think the facts are clear, Jim, that the status quo was not sustainable. The United States could have tried to keep a few thousand troops in there to prop up the Afghan government. As every month went by, the Taliban was slowly getting stronger, and the Afghan security forces were getting weaker. We saw reports in recent months about how Afghan army and police forces were isolated, particularly in rural areas. They had outposts that had gone without food or weapons, resupplies for weeks or months, their troops weren't getting paid. So even before the American military pulled out, things were not headed in the right direction for the Afghan government. I don't think it was a sustainable presence, but how long they could have kept it up, I don't know.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Craig Whitlock, thanks so much. And I do want to remind people of your book, The Afghanistan Papers, a Secret History of the Afghan War. It is worth a read because it chronicles just how long people inside this effort were aware of the failures. Craig, thanks so much.

Still to come this hour, Johnson & Johnson releasing the first data on booster doses for people who received its one-shot vaccine. It shows a big spike in antibodies, good news for that vaccine.

Plus, we have breaking news from Delta Airlines, the company now ramping up pressure on its employees to get them vaccinated. The CEO of Delta joins me next to talk about it.

And what more do we know about potential run-in with Havana syndrome, as it's called, that delayed Vice President Harris' trip to Vietnam, four hours? These are alarming attacks. We're going to have the latest next.

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SCIUTTO: Some good news on the COVID front. Johnson & Johnson revealed this morning that preliminary data show people who received booster doses of its one-shot coronavirus vaccine had a huge spike in antibodies. These are the frontline immune system defenses against infection. Booster trials revealed a nine-fold, nine-fold, nine times increase in antibody levels in people who got the boosters six to eight months after they got their first shot.

The company says it now plans to work with public health officials to come up with a strategy to roll out boosters for those who want them.

And there is this breaking news this morning. Delta Airlines is ramping up pressure on its employees to get vaccinated. Weeks after announcing that it would not require shots for workers, the airline is enacting new policies aimed at, in effect, incentivizing vaccinations, you might even say penalizing not being vaccinated.

I'm joined now by the Delta Airlines CEO, Ed Bastian. Good to have you on this morning. Explain to us and our viewers what's new.

ED BASTIAN, CEO, DELTA AIRLINES: Well, Jim, thanks for having me. Good to be with you. Protecting our people has been our number one priority throughout the pandemic, as it always is, and I'm real proud of the work our team has done from testing. We were one of the very first companies to be out 15 months ago with wide-scale testing of all employees, sponsoring vaccines at all of our main locations right here in the state of Georgia, we hosted the largest vaccination site in the state, we vaccinated hundreds of thousands of people, both Georgia residents as well as our own people. And we've already gotten up to 75 percent of our population that Delta employees fully inoculated at this point. But also know that's not good enough. And with the news of the final FDA authorization for the vaccine being approved, it gives us the opportunity now to go to that next step and provide more stringent requirements on those people that have not been vaccinated. And there's a few things we're going to do. First and foremost, masking works. We're going to make certain that any unvaccinated employee is wearing a mask at all times in our operations, particularly when in indoor settings. Secondly, we're going to enforce weekly testing of employees. Starting in two weeks, every employee that is not vaccinated is going to have to submit to a test to confirm that that person is not infected. And, third, and I think very importantly, starting November the 1st, we're going to implement an insurance surcharge such that if you're not vaccinated at that point, we're going to add a $200 monthly premium surcharge onto your health insurance cost, because this is not just costing lives, this is costing us financial resources as well.

SCIUTTO: Understood. So they have to pay for their testing. I wonder, because some companies have decided to just straight-up require vaccination for their employees, and given the proximity that your employees have with your customers, particularly in the confined space of an airplane, why not straight-up require vaccination.

[10:25:10]

BASTIAN: Well, first and foremost, every company has to make its own decision for its culture, its people, what works according to its values. Delta has one of the highest vaccination rates of any company I'm aware, already using voluntary measures. And I think these added voluntary steps short of mandating a vaccine are going to get us as close to 100 percent as we can. As you know, Jim, on board our planes -- a plane is probably the safest place you can be, all customers are fully masked, the air circulation, filtration process has worked really well. And we have over 80 percent of our crews, both pilots and flight attendants, are already vaccinated. So I think this last step just short of a mandate I think will work with us.

SCIUTTO: Understood. And the data has been good. I've been watching it closely on planes throughout the pandemic in terms of, just as you say, not a lot of evidence of transmission there.

I do want to ask about passengers, because the question has been raised whether at some point passengers should be required to vaccinate. Have you given any consideration to that?

BASTIAN: Well, passengers right now are required to be vaccinated to travel to most international locations. As an American, you can travel to Europe but only if you're vaccinated. And I think you're going to see, as international borders continue to open, that's going to be a requirement for international travel.

Within the domestic system, as you said, there's no evidence that there's been spread of COVID in the domestic air transport system. And as a result of that, coupled with the logistical challenge of we're carrying millions of people a week in the domestic system, it would be quite a logistical snafu for us to try to require that domestically. SCIUTTO: Okay, understood. I do want to ask one question about the finances. As you know, the airline industry as a whole received some $50 billion in bailout grants during the worst of the pandemic. At the time, it made sense. I mean, aircraft travel dropped off a cliff. It has come back very quickly. I've traveled. Airports are busy. Planes are busy. And while that money did help save an estimated 75,000 jobs, when you look at the cost, according to The New York Times, its estimate, there's about $300,000 per job in taxpayer money. And I wonder as an airline that received that aid, are you considering returning some of that benefit, for instance, to customers?

BASTIAN: Well, first, the $50 billion you quoted, that's only $25 billion is actually what we received in the form of grants. So, Delta received a much smaller number than that.

SCIUTTO: Of course. And that's across the industry.

BASTIAN: Exactly. And all that money went to employees. That really was -- didn't go to the companies. It went entirely to our employees to make sure that our employees maintain their jobs, and we were in position to be able respond when it was safe to start traveling again. I think the economic return of keeping all those employees' jobs, the taxes they're paying, the employment benefit, the fact that our air transportation system in our country now is fully back compared to any other country in the world, the U.S. air transportation system has been protected, has been maintained, and it's vital. It's an essential service.

So, I think it's been a great investment. I think, over time, history will show it was one of the smartest thing the government did during the CARES Act negotiations.

SCIUTTO: It's definitely busy in the skies. I've seen it every time I fly. Ed Bastian, CEO of Delta, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

BASTIAN: Great to be with you.

SCIUTTO: Coming up next this hour, the White House says Vice President Harris is safe following a potential incident with Havana syndrome at a city where she was going to. More on the mysterious illness, rising concerns about it around the world, that's coming next.

But, first, here is what's happening today.

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