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The U.S. Has Learned The Terror Group ISIS-K is Plotting Possible Attacks on Crowds Outside the Kabul Airport; Several Major Developments in the Fight Against Coronavirus. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired August 25, 2021 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ERICA HILL, CNN HOST: Hi, I'm Erica Hill in New York in for Ana Cabrera today. The crisis in Afghanistan developing quickly, virtually all-consuming at this point for the Biden administration. U.S. forces now racing against that deadline of next Tuesday for a complete withdrawal, and what is likely to be a gut-wrenching end to this mass evacuation.

Time is not the only enemy here. The U.S. has learned the terror group ISIS-K is plotting possible attacks on crowds outside the Kabul Airport. Just one more grave concern for administration struggling with a mission of daunting logistics and challenges. CNN's Phil Mattingly is at the White House. So, Phil, take us inside the West Wing. What is the conversation today?

PHIL MATTINGLY, SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT, CNN: You know, one of the ways a senior White House official framed it to me earlier this morning was we are in a perpetual state of evaluation and that seems kind of top line and broad but I think it's realistic when you look at what the White House is grappling with at this moment in time. Obviously, they have security threats they're trying to get a read on.

They have coordination with the Taliban, which is a huge element of how their evacuations have been able to move through over the course of the last several days. They have the evacuations themselves where U.S. personnel, military personnel on the ground, their status, when they depart, how they depart.

Obviously, that timeline that is kind of looming over everything at once, all of this is happening in real-time. And it's a situation that a second White House official made clear to me White House believes is getting more dangerous and more complicated as each day moves forward closer to that deadline.

So, that is what President Biden is grappling with. Now, I will note, there are a couple things that we are looking to get answers on throughout the course of this day. Secretary of State Antony Blinken is expected to speak in a couple of hours.

He is expected to lay out at the direction of President Biden yesterday the specific number of Americans that have been evacuated from Afghanistan, and also the specific number of Americans that remain in Afghanistan. Now, keep in mind, the president and his National Security Advisor Jake Sullivan have committed that every American who wants to leave Afghanistan will be evacuated by that August 31st deadline.

So, this will be the clearest update we've gotten to this point. The numbers have been pretty fluid, pretty cagey over the course of the last several days in terms of their progress towards that element. The other thing, and just a final point I would make is the president yesterday made clear that he believes that they are on pace to achieve the goals they set out in the evacuation.

And that is why he's sticking to that August 31st deadline. What that achievement actually look like I think has been somewhat amorphous over the course of the last several days. Clearly, we know where the administration stands on getting Americans out, those who want to leave.

But the real question right now, and I'm hearing this a lot from lawmakers on Capitol Hill both Democrats and Republicans, is what that means for Afghans. And so that right now is what the White House is grappling with and those are some of the questions that they still need to answer publicly in the hours ahead.

HILL: That is certainly one of the questions. Phil Mattingly, appreciate it as always. As those desperate cry -- crowds rather outside the Kabul Airport now raising even more concerns for U.S. authorities. A U.S. defense official telling CNN there is a very specific threat stream about planned attacks on these groups of people.

Let's go straight to CNN's Nick Paton Walsh for more on this. So, Nick, what more do we know about this growing threat?

NICK PATON WALSH, INTERNATIONAL SECURITY EDITOR, CNN: Oh, ISIS-K have been a long-term threat capable of what people will refer to in this sort of fan base of spectacular attacks against civilian targets, often in Kabul, often elsewhere around the country. So, there is clearly an ISIS-K threat here, certainly.

And I'm sure that is in the minds of those anytime you see a substantial crowd of individuals. Particularly a crowd affiliated with the United States. Remember, those people outside the airport are mostly former employees at some point of the U.S. presence in Afghanistan.

But I have to say looking at all the different complications and sort of you might call it the threat matrix of what's happening around the airport there's an awful lot more to worry about too.

Firstly, for those Afghans trying to get to the airport they have to get through Taliban checkpoints, some are having some success, some are being blocked, some are getting through because they're escorted and coordinate their entrance into the airport with the Taliban and the U.S. through the southern entrance that the Taliban control.

I understand though today we've seen a significant rise in the number of Afghans on the airport. It was 1,000 this morning, we have just heard from the Pentagon that it's got to 10,000 and a source familiar with the situation tells me that kind of makes sense because there haven't been that many planes coming in to take people out of the airport at this stage.

Who are these people? Well, it seems like quite a few of them may be SIV applicants. They may also contain some local embassy staff as well, which will be a huge relief for those U.S. diplomats who've served in Kabul, and sat next to these Afghans who essentially were sort of left a bit behind until this point it seems in Kabul, the city itself.

But all that can be described now is the chaos on the outskirts of the airport. Very hard, one person said, to pull people out of that crowd, to the applicants you know have the right out of the (inaudible) of people who are just equally desperate to get onto the airport.

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The window is clearly closing, there's clearly some element of desperation, and I heard today too that the Australians, Canadians, and Italians according to a source have begun their departure from the airport. NATO allies on the way out, U.S. moving some its first troops, this is clearly coming to a closing phase.

HILL: As it comes to a closing phase there is this mounting fear when it comes to women in Afghanistan, as you know, Nick. The Taliban now saying that working women should stay home until there's property -- proper security in place for them. That sounds somewhat ominous I have to say.

WALSH: Yes, I mean, look, I think there are many women who are concerned that this is sort of the thin end of the wedge, so to speak. You say, well, we can't guarantee your safety until we've trained certain people within our movement while they'll never get around to the training. You're never really allowed back to work.

I have to say, the Taliban have been at pains to persistently suggest that they are somehow reformed and they will be permitting women access to the workplaces. It's highly unlikely to be as equals to men in the workplace. But still, this is the key concern the critics of the Taliban have had.

That they come to power with order and calm as we've mostly seen in the areas they've taken over but then slowly as the international world attention dissipates, as they begin to consolidate control reveal their real hand. Which is as they were in the '90s and that's pretty misogynistic and at times quite barbaric.

We'll have to see though.

HILL: Yes. Nick Paton Walsh with the latest for us. Nick, thank you. President Biden says his decision to keep that August 31st deadline to withdraw all U.S. forces from Afghanistan was driven in large part by security risks in the region. Some of which you just heard about from Nick. CNN's Barbara Starr is at the Pentagon. So, Barbara, the Pentagon voicing confidence that it will get all remaining Americans out of the country. What are you hearing from defense officials? Is Biden going to be able to pull this off without leaving people behind?

BARBARA STARR, PENTAGON CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Well, the answer is nobody knows really until it's over, right. I mean, that is the goal, the goal is to, you know, first and foremost get all Americans out of Afghanistan who want to leave. There's just no way of knowing if somebody may be left behind who wants to go.

Perhaps in the outskirts of Kabul or in another city or location. So far they've conducted three helicopter extraction missions in the Kabul area to bring Americans out and bring them to the airport. So, they are certainly going to try right up until the last minute. Whether they can get all those Afghans out who have the proper paperwork also problematic because the clock is winding down.

Right now the U.S. commitment is to meet its deadline of August 31st. And what we heard from the Pentagon today as they get to the last couple of days they are going to have to focus more and more on getting U.S. troops and U.S. equipment but mainly U.S. troops out.

Right now there's about 5,400 troops there. They're down 400, they've already taken some people out of the airfield area who were considered non-essential personnel. But they're going to have to get 5,400 American troops out of there and that's a lot of air flights in and of itself.

While keeping it secure until the very last plane is wheels up off that airfield in the middle of a potential Taliban threat and in the middle of that ISIS threat. Erica.

HILL: Barbara Starr with the latest for us from the Pentagon. Barbara, thank you. Let's continue the conversation now. Joining me CNN National Security Commentator Mike Rogers, former chairman of the House Intelligence Committee, and retired Army Lieutenant General Mark Hertling, a CNN military analyst.

Good to have both of you with us today. General, I want to start with the -- with you on these threats. As we're looking at what we know about the airport in terms of that perimeter this threat of an ISIS-K attack on the Kabul airport. We have the crowds, we have the chaotic street scenes. Just how vulnerable do you think the airport is at this point?

LT. GEN. MARK HERTLING (RET.), MILITARY ANALYST, CNN: Well, without going too deeply into it, Erica, stationary targets are easy to hit. During the time I spent in combat, over three years, one of the biggest concerns we had was the suicide car bomber or the suicide vest wearer.

You know, and it's a making of a statement against what's normally a hard target. There's a reason that buildings and gates and entryways are targeted. It's because they don't move and it's easy to drive up to them. What we have, and this is one of the concerns I've had from the very beginning, and it's certainly a concern anytime you execute a NEO, a noncombatant evacuation operation, you're limited to the airfield.

And in this particular case, you literally have thousands of people waiting to get into that airfield but you also have both the inner parameter guarded by the Americans, the outer parameter guarded by the Taliban. And both of those are enemies of ISIS Khorasan.

So, they would be able to strike quite a devastating target if they were to hit, kill Afghans that are waiting to get in, it would be an embarrassment for both the Taliban taking over the government and for the Americans trying to get the hell out of there.

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HILL: You know, Congressman, as Phil Mattingly, our correspondent at the White House, just pointed out, an aide telling him that it's in this perpetual state of evaluation right now as things are getting more dangerous as that deadline looms.

I mean, as part of that danger CNN has also learned more than 100 prison inmates loyal to that ISIS affiliate, ISIS Khorasan in Afghanistan, escaped from two prisons near Kabul as the Taliban was advancing there on the Afghan capital.

As General Hertling points out, this is a group, right, that certainly doesn't like America but also doesn't like the Taliban. So, as you're -- as you're looking at this over the next couple of days how important is that intelligence while we are still on the ground?

MIKE ROGERS, NATIONAL SECURITY COMMENTATOR, CNN: Well, it's extremely important. And this is going to be an intelligence-led defense candidly. And remember that Taliban gets a vote, that's one of the reasons the 31st is really not negotiable. You can't secure that airport unless you're going to push out of perimeter on the airport.

And I think the president's made a decision he's not going to do that. So, and remember this, ISIS has -- is not a friend of the Taliban in all cases but they have talked and they have fought together in the past. Just like we know now that Al-Qaeda is present in about 15 provinces of Afghanistan.

So, you have this petri dish of extremism and terrorism that is -- that is kind of rippling through. And we have to remember something, the reason the Taliban says well, we can't guarantee your safety, it is 75,000 people are there for ideology that some -- a lot of them can't read. They're going by their teachings of the role of women in a culture.

This isn't a well-disciplined, thoughtful government and military. This is a terrorist organization that has now found themselves in charge. All of that presents danger to our U.S. troops, by the way. And this ISIS-K is exactly that, they're going after these Afghans that they know want to flee the country because they've had some relationship with the United States. All of that's dangerous. HILL: Looking at the -- sort of where we are just today, right, we talk about it as we heard from Phil. You know, increasing concerns within the White House, not surprising.

At the Pentagon briefing a short time ago, there was a specific question about, you know, what happens on August 30th/August 31st. General Hertling, I'm curious, what do you envision happens on September 1st once the Taliban has control of the airport?

HERTLING: Yes, I -- can -- if I can back it up a little bit first, Erica. What we're talking about are phasing of the NEO operations, the noncombatant evacuation operations. What we've seen in phase I was the chaos and a little bit of dysfunction as people were getting used to what they're doing.

Phase II has been a very successful and magnificent evacuation of literally tens of thousands of people. We're about in phase III now, when the evacuees are going to have a difficult time getting into the airport, that's already been stated by the Pentagon this morning.

And where the commander on the ground is going to have to start phasing back aircraft because of a lack of people to put on board. Then you're going to get in phase IV and phase IV is the toughest part. Because then the commander has to determine how do I let some of my forces go while keeping enough for security?

What do I keep there until the very end for that -- when that last plane takes off? How am I going to secure and continue to do the coordination while still potentially processing? You know, these kind of operations are exceedingly difficult and it really tests a commander.

I've had to almost execute one once and I realized how tough it was just to know how many people you were trying to get out, and what are the dynamics. And Phil Mattingly's comment about during a constant state of evaluation in the White House, I would put that on steroids within the Kabul Airport for the military commanders there.

HILL: You know, just to pick up on that for one second.

We are learning in a tweet from the German ambassador that the Taliban he says has said that they will allow Afghan nationals with legal documents to leave the country after that August 31st deadline. But General, if you don't have control of the airport how do you ensure that happens?

HERTLING: Well, that's a great point. Because then you have the border crossings and some of the territories around Afghanistan reminding everyone that they're surrounded by Pakistan or Iran, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, and Kazakhstan. Those are countries that I'm sure the Taliban is attempting to close the borders with, and especially in some of them.

It's going to be -- there's not going to be a whole lot of aircraft flight out of the country. At least in the short term because the Taliban doesn't know how to run airfields. They don't have the air traffic controllers, there are a lot of nations that won't put their aircraft into the -- into any of the airfields. So, it's going to be problematic.

The escape after the evacuation is complete is going to be pretty sporty. It's going to be overland with handlers, with people who are willing to be mules, and that is going to be in groups of -- small groups versus large groups like we've seen evacuated over the last few days.

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HILL: Congressman, I do want to get your take on what we learned about late last night. There is a lot of criticism today for two members of Congress, a Democrat and a Republican who made an unauthorized visit to Afghanistan. Both Iraq war veterans, they said they wanted to see the evacuations first hand.

There has been a lot of criticism about the decision that the president made, questions about whether it had to go this way. It's never a simple and certainly not a binary choice when we're talking about Afghanistan. When you look at this move by the Congressman do you look at that as real due diligence on their part? Or is it reckless?

ROGERS: Boy. It's -- it appears to be a little bit stunt-like to me. And I'm somebody that believes in pushing that envelope. If you talk to any diplomat in a difficult area they don't want anyone of value coming by because it just adds to their headache and I understand that.

But this is something different, this was an active evacuation where they are doing their best to try to get people through the line, processed, and on airplanes. And that in and of itself has candidly been disastrous.

So, adding two to the mix probably I can't argue was all that helpful. If they aren't going to have the ability to access certain parts along that fence line to get information I'm not sure what value it was. So, maybe there's more, I hope that they had it and they found something, they were talking about it.

Because as somebody who always pushed that envelope myself this to me didn't -- boy, just didn't look right given the tension and the stress that's already on the system in there. And, by the way, I just want to add one other thing to the General's point.

The private sector, private citizens have engaged in trying to move people who've worked with the government, both Afghan citizens who would qualify for SIV or other P1/P2 and even American citizens because the Taliban did -- has stopped them from getting to the airport they've kind of sprung into action.

So, there are some land bridges that are being created. This is all being done outside of the government purview to try to save these people. And those are really important stories to be told. Because it's courage of Afghans, it's courage of people who supported America trying to do the right thing and get people out.

And it is a difficult prospect indeed to do exactly that. And so, remember, when this is done I don't care what they say and what briefings they give, we will leave. The United States will leave people behind who have committed themselves to helping the United States and our western allies bring freedom to Afghanistan.

And there's prices on their head, we will walk away from them on the 31st. No matter what metrics they give you, how many tens of thousands we did get out, which is fantastic, it -- that's not the metric we need to do. We need to put that metric on helping these people who have literally risked their lives and are now paying that price once those --

HILL: I'm going to get in trouble for this because we're basically out of time. But do you ever envision a situation where there was a way to get every single person out in an evacuation?

ROGERS: It's an hour-long show, we should have never -- remember, when this all started we were doing OK. We had about 2,500 troops. It kept the Taliban at bay. This notion that we were just going to pull the plug and everything was going to be fine utterly caused this collapse. There was absolutely a way to do this. This is a self-inflicted --

HILL: Was that keeping troops though in Afghanistan indefinitely?

ROGERS: No, not -- listen, peace is what you're shooting here for not the war. We weren't fighting -- we didn't have -- we had no casualties in 18 months because of the way the -- that we were structuring our counterterrorism efforts. And we had the ability to strike Al-Qaeda, and we had the ability to push back on the Taliban. So, it was really kind of at this good equilibrium.

You know, I would have argued probably needed a few more troops. But, OK, it was working at 2,500 troops. This was all self-inflicted. We just said we're out, we don't care, we don't care that it's working. And that was a absolute mistake that we're going to pay for.

Our allies are, our adversaries, and all the people we left behind take note. This is a disaster for the United States both in the short and long-term value of American partnership. It's, you know, it's sad and -- we're talking to people on --

HILL: Mike --

ROGERS: -- every day. And, by the way, there's a disconnect between the briefings and what these people are telling us. And it is absolutely disastrous. And it's just shameful that we would walk away from these people who have risked so much with us.

HILL: A lot of the answers still being requested from across the board here. Mike Rogers, General Mark Hertling, appreciate you both joining us today, thank you.

ROGERS: Thanks. HILL: There are several major developments in the fight against Coronavirus today. Johnson & Johnson revealing big benefits from a booster shot. Moderna applying for full FDA approval. All this as unvaccinated patients continue to overwhelm hospitals. Nearly 80 percent of ICU beds in this country now occupied. And deaths reaching levels that haven't been seen in months.

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HILL: Promising news at this hour when it comes to two COVID vaccines. Moderna says it's now completed its submission to the FDA for full approval. And there's boosted data out -- booster data, pardon me, out for more -- for the more than 14 million Americans who got J&J's single-dose vaccine. Bottom line, two jabs of J&J may be better than one.

The findings here are critical as the crisis largely among unvaccinated Americans gets worse. More than three quarters of the nation's ICU beds are currently in use. Some 30 percent of them filled with COVID patients. CNN's Senior Medical Correspondent Elizabeth Cohen joining us now to break down this data on that J&J booster.

So, looking at that, A) what does it tell us, and B) for people who did get J&J, when could they potentially get a second shot?

ELIZABETH COHEN, SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT, CNN: So, Erica, what this data tells this -- tells us just as you said is that two shots of Johnson & Johnson do appear to work better than one according to this small study. And the FDA and Johnson & Johnson are talking now about when there might be boosters available for people who got J&J and whether that will happen.

Let's take a look at the Johnson & Johnson vaccine, we haven't sort of gone over it in quite a while. So, Johnson & Johnson is, you know, the one-shot, the one and done as people called it. It was found in clinical trials to be 66 percent effective against moderate and severe disease.

That's not as good as Pfizer and Moderna but still a very strong vaccine and good protection against COVID. Now let's take a look at what this study with boosters found. So, they -- this was a relatively small study. Some of the folks in it received first the first shot and then six months later got a booster.

What they found was that that first shot had sort of primed people's bodies. It did a good thing and so that antibodies increased ninefold shortly after the second shot compared to what happened shortly after the first shot. So, there seems to be really some advantage here.

And, you know, Erica, it's interesting Johnson & Johnson some people called it the one-shot wonder. This was going to be the shot that was going to help, for example, in developing countries and where it was -- you could move it around and it didn't have to be in low temperatures. Never quite happened, it'll be interesting to see if this changes every -- any of that.

HILL: Really quickly, Moderna submitted for full FDA approval. Timeline on that?

COHEN: Yes, let's take a look by following what Pfizer -- what happened with Pfizer because we all know that Pfizer got full approval earlier this week. So, Pfizer completed their submission for full approval back on May 18th and then got approval on August 23rd.

Moderna submitted today, it probably won't be exactly the same amount of time but it gives you a rough timeline. It'll take maybe sort of three/four-ish months. That's when we could expect it. Does it really change anything but maybe will give people who have not been vaccinated more confidence in Moderna and help them roll up their sleeves.

HILL: We will be watching. Actually, you'll be watching, I'll be following your reporting. Elizabeth Cohen, thank you --

COHEN: Thanks.

HILL: -- as always. In Florida now a crush of COVI D cases. A growing number of school districts, local governments, and businesses now openly defying Governor Ron DeSantis implementing mask and vaccine mandates. CNN Correspondent Leyla Santiago joins us now live from Miami. So, Layla, the defiance here is actually growing along with along with --

LEYLA SANTIAGO, CORRESPONDENT, CNN: Yes.

HILL: -- COVID cases.

SANTIAGO: Right. Right now cases and hospitalizations, Erica, are at an all-time high. Florida breaking records when it comes to deaths. Last week one in five COVID-19 deaths in the United States you'll find them right here in Florida.

And this comes, as you mentioned, as school districts, as well as local municipalities, are moving forward with mandates that go against what the governor has said is a law. Right now, as of this morning, ten school districts have now voted to move forward with mask mandates that don't have a parent opt as were -- opt-out rather as required by the governor's executive order.

And then you have local municipalities like Tampa moving forward with a vaccine requirement. If their county employees are not vaccinated they will have to submit weekly tests of COVID-19. And all of this, Erica, coming as Quinnipiac polls show that the majority of Florida residents now largely support mask mandates.

And also oppose any sort of effort to block that. Also, an interesting point coming out of that same Quinnipiac poll 46 to 41 Florida residents say that Governor Ron Desantis is hurting rather than helping in the effort to stop the spread. Erica.

HILL: Leyla Santiago. Leyla, thank you. In Washington, a 90-day review of potential COVID origins that President Biden had requested is now complete. White House Reporter Natasha Bertrand joining us now. So, that report is classified but we do know one thing and that's that it was inconclusive.

NATASHA BERTRAND, WHITE HOUSE REPORTER, CNN: That's right, Erica. So, President Biden has been briefed on the findings of this classified review, this 90-day review that the president ordered to find the origins of the pandemic. That report is still inconclusive.

We should be getting a clearer picture of what that actually looks like in the coming days as the intel community drafts an unclassified version of that report to share with the public. But right now as it stands we're told by sources that the intel community is still very much divided between two main theories.

That lab leak theory, which, you know, speculates that perhaps the virus leaked from a lab in Wuhan. And the natural origins theory, which is that the virus escaped from the wild. Now, while these officials are still kind of figuring out where they stand, apparently as recently as Friday, certain intel community elements were switching sides about where they stood with regard to the origins.

One thing is clear from this report, that's again according to our sources, which is that the Chinese government does have a lot of blame. According to the intelligence officials when it comes to suppressing early efforts to get to the bottom of what actually caused the pandemic.

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