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Pentagon: "Number Of U.S. Servicemembers Killed In Kabul Attack; New Graphic Video Shows Aftermath Of Kabul Terror Attack. Aired 2:30-3p ET

Aired August 26, 2021 - 14:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:30:00]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Nic Robertson, let me come to you on the capabilities of this group, ISIS-K.

Now, they've not claimed responsibility. The State Department says that ISIS-K is likely responsible for these attacks.

Do they have the capabilities, these surface-to-air capabilities to take out some of the above-ground resources that General Clark is talking about and these flights that are evacuating so many thousands of people?

NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: Game changer weapons, which was why we held on the Mujahadeen back in the Soviet days, stingers, too, which game changed the Soviet's occupation of Afghanistan. Targeting the helicopters and bringing them down was part of the strategy.

There's no hard evidence that's in the public domain that ISIS-K have a shoulder-launched weapon in serviceable condition that they've been able to use.

Why do we say -- why do I say that? Because that's the only -- that's the only information we have. Are they hiding something out? It would certainly be a game changer if they were to decide to bring down an aircraft.

Do the Taliban have them? Are they available in Afghanistan? Well, the Taliban were fighting a desperate fight against the Afghan government to get to power.

And there were plenty of Afghan helicopters flying around. And for a while, there were plenty of U.S. aircraft flying around and aircraft, and at known bases and known times.

I think the only evidence we've seen in the past few months of a helicopter get shot down in those battles was one shot down by gunfire.

So it doesn't appear as if those MANPADs, as they're called by the military -- General Clark, correct me if I'm wrong -- but these shoulder-launched missiles do not appear to be widely available in Afghanistan, or they certainly haven't been used. There's that. But that has to be a key concern going forward.

You know, I have to look at some of the evidence of what has happened on the ground here as well.

The Taliban have said that they wouldn't let Afghans go through. Their method of letting people get access to the airport has been hugely arbitrary and has contributed to the massive tail backs and the mess and the gathering of people.

They have a huge level of responsibility here. They've come to power in this extraordinary way, essentially, because they didn't tell the truth when they told us that they would negotiate with the Afghan government. That's why that happened.

They promised us that they will keep the United States and other countries safe by making sure that al Qaeda and other group cannot use their territory.

They said the same thing to Russia, the same thing to China, that these groups cannot use their territory to attack beyond the borders, to attack the United States and others.

It does seem that the Taliban at the moment are not -- and it is perhaps beyond the writ of anyone to be able to control Afghanistan fully. But the guarantees that they've given don't hold water.

This is a very precarious moment to be leaving the country, which no doubt we will, but to be leaving it in the hands of the Taliban in such a mess with so many dynamic globally affecting consequences that can flow from it.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: General Clark, if one of the contingency plans that President Biden decides to go with is retaliation, does the U.S. military know where ISIS-K's training camps are?

What would be the next move after an attack like this that has killed sufficient servicemember?

GEN. WESLEY CLARK, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, first of all, I wouldn't know if we know where their camps are. And if I did, I couldn't say it.

But, yes, we probably have some general ideas of what is going on. We are probably picking up chatter. We're getting indications from people who talk to us, maybe not even in Afghanistan but maybe elsewhere.

So, yes, there would be a capability to retaliate. Maybe not immediately.

But I would think that the first thing that we would be doing is worried about getting the mission done, and that is the defense of Kabul airport and finding more secure ways to screen people when they come in.

It may take a slightly larger number of people there to do that. That has to be asked. That has to be then considered. It has to be considered in light of how we're going to roll up the mission at the end.

How quickly can you get out? How many aircraft? What's the threat to those aircraft?

As Nic was saying, it is very important whether there are MANPADs there or not. So far, as we know, they're not there. But if there was one there, yes, that would be very -- that would be very tragic if it actually worked and connected to an aircraft.

So we're looking at the risks. We're looking at what the options are. Retaliation would be one option, but it wouldn't be the first thing.

The first thing is get the mission done. And that means --

(CROSSTALK)

CLARK: -- the airport, locate the Americans, find a way to get them to the airport to get them out of there.

[14:35:01]

BLACKWELL: But, General, I just want to be clear about what you are saying here and put it in the broader context, that you are suggesting that there's a plausible scenario in which the U.S. footprint in Afghanistan could grow again for the second time in just a few weeks, right?

CLARK: I'm saying it is plausible.

Let's say you need some additional, let's say, unmanned aerial vehicle assets to provide greater security around the airport.

You might send a team in, maybe 25, 30 men with these assets to be able to give you greater 24-hour coverage of that space outside the airport, let's say, from the air. That's the kind of reinforcement I'm talking about.

I don't think we're talking about, you know, another brigade of people to man the walls with rifles to shoot at people.

But you know, that's up to the commander on the ground first. He knows his situation better than anyone. I'm sure he's walked it, driven it, and worried about it every moment he's been there.

So he's going to be talking continuously to the commander at Central Command, to the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and that will be coming up at the National Security Council and the president.

CAMEROTA: Bob Baer, what do you think happens next?

BOB BAER, CNN INTELLIGENCE & SECURITY ANALYST: I was in Beirut in the '80s and watched the Marines get hit and I have watched suicide bombers. And the problem is these suicide vests cost about $150. You can make

them at home without a base, and all you need is fanatics. Apparently, there are a lot of them in Afghanistan, Alisyn. That's what scares me for the Marines.

I mean, it is the best fighting force in the world, but someone who is willing to strap on a vest over their robes and blow themselves up when you have the sort of mob at Kabul airport makes it extremely difficult, even for the best army in the world to defend against.

And that's what worries me.

BLACKWELL: David Sanger, I want to, again, be clear that ISIS-K has not claimed responsibility.

The sources at the State Department are saying it is likely ISIS-K. And we know that's been the center of the threat string that's been reported for several days.

But we know that this is a blow against the Taliban as much as it is the U.S.

Could there be a scenario in which the U.S. and the Taliban are on the same side of a fight against ISIS-K? I mean, is that what we're looking toward in the next several days?

DAVID SANGER, CNN POLITICAL & NATIONAL SECURITY ANALYST: It is possible.

I mean, you have seen stranger things happen in the 20 years of this war, especially because, you know, we've had Pakistan, as a major non- NATO ally, ostensibly fighting the Taliban, but secretly, in some cases, supporting it through their intelligence agency.

So there are a lot of loyalties that have moved back and forth.

But what is clear from this is that the Taliban do not have at this point control of that area outside of the airport. Control by means of real discipline and how they could do this.

The fact that the bomber made it through, even though there was explicit intelligence suggesting that those gates were particularly vulnerable and ISIS-K may be headed for them, tells you something, that they still weren't able to stop it.

So I don't think we can rely in any way on the Taliban controlling the area outside.

And I doubt the president is going to be willing to put American troops on the outside. He certainly hasn't yet. And I think it would be an invitation to more casualties.

You heard before a reference from Bob to the 1983 Marine bombing, Marine barracks bombing, where we lost 241 Marines and the French lost more than 50. And it is interesting to think about what President Reagan did under that circumstance. He pulled everybody out. And, you know, we -- he upped and outed the whole bit.

Everybody was saying what we are saying now that this was going to be a big marker on his presidency. And yet, he survived it quite nicely.

I think that the Biden simple view right now is that people will remember that we got out of Afghanistan and they expected it would be messy.

And he was hoping to get out with no American casualties. And it has been a miracle they haven't had any until now. Tragically, our luck ran out today.

BLACKWELL: All right. We are about 20 minutes out from a briefing at the Pentagon. Hopefully, we get more details about what happened today and about the path forward.

David Sanger, General Wesley Clark, Nic Robertson and Bob Baer, thank you all.

CAMEROTA: Our breaking news continues, these deadly explosions near the Kabul airport. We will receive that update from the Pentagon. We will bring it to you as soon as we have it and we have more details.

[14:39:51]

Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: We're covering breaking news out of Afghanistan. And we do have new video of the aftermath of the aftermath of the terror attack just into our newsroom.

In a second, we will show you the reality of the carnage on the ground, but we do want you to know it is very disturbing.

The Pentagon says that a number of U.S. servicemembers were among those killed in these two explosions near the Kabul airport. Several others were wounded.

It is unclear how many Afghans were killed or hurt, but it looks like a lot.

BLACKWELL: This graphic video from the scene of one of the explosions gives a real idea of the extent of what happened there.

[14:45:06]

And again, we have to warn you these pictures are disturbing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SHOUTING) (END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: This is where one of the blasts happened. You see there just bodies there in what we're told was a sewage canal, some lifeless, the people trying to respond in any way they can.

The crowd here was at one of the entry gates, people trying to get out of the country. U.S. officials believe the terror group ISIS-K is behind the attacks.

President Biden and the Pentagon had warned for several days about a possible ISIS attack at the airport. The U.S. embassy put out a warning to Americans just last night to stay away from the gates there.

Here with us now is CNN producer, Tim Lister.

Tim, we've been talking about just the paths forward. There seems to be no clear path forward and no good options here for this administration.

Based on what you know and what we just saw, what do you expect we are going to hear?

TIM LISTER, CNN PRODUCER: I expect we're going to hear perhaps in the next day or so a claim of responsibility. And I expect that will come from ISIS Khorasan, which is that province of ISIS that is active in Afghanistan.

We're not sure, of course. There's been no claim of responsibility yet. But they had the capability, they had the motivation, and it is their modus operandi.

A large number of civilians, static in one place, these are the sort of attacks they've been carrying out in Kabul for the best part of five years.

In the first four months of this year alone, Victor, there were 77 attacks by ISIS Khorasan in Kabul. There was a staged major suicide attacks in Jalalabad in the south and the east.

So this is a group that is well-embedded in Afghanistan. And neither the previous government nor the Taliban will find it easy to get rid of ISIS-K.

I think what it shows you is that this is a brutal reminder that Afghanistan is still very fertile territory for international terrorism.

Remember the prison escapes over the last two, three weeks. A lot of those who escaped were ISIS members or al Qaeda members. They're now on the lam.

You can tell straightaway the Taliban may be an effective insurgency. There's not much evidence they're an effective security force.

These are some of the problems going forward that the international community and the United States have to face.

CAMEROTA: Tim, what does ISIS-K want? I mean, obviously, death and destruction. But do they have any strategic goals? Are they competing with the Taliban? Do they want to rule Afghanistan?

LISTER: They, ultimately, would love to see a caliphate in Afghanistan.

They regard the Taliban as betraying Islam. They've waxed lyrical about how the Taliban have been swanning around in luxury hotels in Qatar while they're doing the real fighting. They call them apostates.

One opportunity for ISIS here in Afghanistan is that, if the Taliban does try to be a little bit more moderate towards the West, to deal with the West, its more radical members and some within the Haqqani network, which is an ally, may well be tempted to join ISIS Khorasan.

ISIS Khorasan is already making that appeal to the more radical groups in its stronghold, which has been in the eastern provinces, but they are much more established now than they were a few years ago in Kabul. They will be very, very difficult to dislodge.

BLACKWELL: Tim, in the short term, you know, we're going to hear from the Pentagon in a few moments about what happened and what happens going forward.

But for the Taliban, is it expected that there will be some response from the Taliban against ISIS-K? What does that mean for the evacuation effort if that starts?

LISTER: Well, they're sworn enemies. If the Taliban can find ISIS-K cells, they will deal with them, there's no doubt about that.

In fact, I'm told by a regional counterterrorism source, when the Taliban emptied out an area, they found some and executed some on the spot. There's no love lost between the groups.

In 2019, the Taliban said, we've defeated ISIS Khorasan. It was wishful thinking.

This is a very resilient group and they had a resupply of fighters from Pakistan, from Tajikistan and Uzbekistan.

And they used a wrap-around back in 2016, through Iran, into Afghanistan, for some of the most seasoned ISIS fights, who came from Iraq and Syria.

So this is not a force that will be eradicated quickly, even though, just a couple of years ago, the U.S. dropped a MOAB, the Mother of All Bombs, on a large ISIS camp down in the east of Afghanistan, killing well over 100.

[14:50:12]

There's still, probably, 1,500 ISIS Khorasan people left and ready to fight in Afghanistan right now. CAMEROTA: That's what I was wondering. Do they have traditional camps and bases and headquarters, or are they so splintered that it would be difficult for the Taliban and the U.S. to retaliate against them?

LISTER: That's a really great question. And I was listening earlier on, and that is the problem. You don't know where to retaliate because they are so splintered in these tiny little encampments deep in the mountains of Kunar and Kandahar.

I had been up there. In 2001, I was there for Tora Bora. The ravines and gullies and valleys are impossible to navigate. It's almost impossible to find these people in the first place in their camps.

Particularly now, I know there are great things said about the Over- the-Horizon capabilities of modern defense forces, but there's no substitute for human intelligence on the ground.

That's going to be sorely lacking for the U.S. going forward now.

BLACKWELL: If it is ISIS-K, is it expected this is the beginning of a potential short-term campaign of attacks or is it their M.O. that they have now made their statement in what happened earlier today?

LISTER: Based on previous experience, they will come back for more.

They want to show that the Taliban are not fit to govern, that they can challenge them at any point and cause mayhem, whether it's at a girls school, a Shia mosque, a Sikh gathering, these are their targets, the police, the media.

They will continue. And especially, if -- and here's a tough decision for the West -- if the Western nations decide to maintain embassies and encourage NGOs to work in Afghanistan, that is additional risk.

The Taliban were an effective insurgency. They're not a good security force. They're not really, most of them, even from Kabul. They're all from the south in Kandahar and Helman.

So there are an awful lot of factor factors not pointing in the right direction going forward.

BLACKWELL: Tim Lister, CNN producer, thank you for that wealth of information as we try to understand who is responsible and the path forward there in Afghanistan.

We've been reaching out to some of the guests that we've had over the last couple of days, who have translators, friends and family members in Afghanistan, they've been trying to get out through that airport.

You might remember Lance Corporal Jimmy Hurley, who was on with us, and his effort to get Haji, a translator, and his family out.

We reached out to him and asked if Haji was anywhere near the airport, what about his whereabouts.

The response we got, "How is Haji? Not great. He was very close to the explosion this morning. His family is back in hiding in a safe room. We are exploring other routes out of the country."

There are so many of these stories.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

BLACKWELL: Considering, this is just one.

CAMEROTA: Even before this, the communications we were trying to have with some of the women in hiding was very spotty. There were days that they would go dark and we wouldn't be able to hear from them.

Obviously, this complicated it. Again, these are just our individual contacts.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: The effort that now the U.S. has to undertake in terms of finding those hundreds of Americans, the Secretary of State Blinken said they were trying to communicate with yesterday, obviously, everything has gotten much, much more complicated.

But hopefully, we'll get an update from the Pentagon on this.

BLACKWELL: Yes. We have this in a geo-political context. We also remember that these are individual people and families, too.

[14:54:02]

Our breaking coverage continues. Deadly explosions near the Kabul airport. We'll receive an update from the Pentagon shortly. We'll bring that to you live.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

BLACKWELL: Thanks for staying with us. I'm Victor Blackwell.

CAMEROTA: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

We continue to get breaking news into our newsroom. So this is out of Afghanistan. Two deadly bombings in Kabul today that killed an unspecified number of U.S. servicemembers.

We have this new disturbing video showing the reality of the carnage on the ground in the immediate aftermath of those explosions.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(CROSSTALK)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: That is some of the most horrible video we have seen yet. It shows the vast carnage there.

In fact, we're just getting information from the Afghan health minister. They say at least 60 Afghans killed, at least 140 wounded.

And again, our U.S. servicemembers also killed in these two explosions near the Hamid Karzai International Airport. Many others are still being treated for their wounds.

BLACKWELL: U.S. officials believe that ISIS-K was behind the attacks, but they're still working to confirm that. The State Department had been warning for days of a terror threat at the airport.

[14:59:56]

Any moment, we're expecting to get an update from the Pentagon. We, of course, will bring that to you live.

We have reporters standing by.

Let's start with Barbara Starr at the Pentagon.

Barbara, what do we know about these military members who were killed? And what we're expected to hear from the Pentagon?