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Rep. Adam Kinzinger (R-IL) is Interviewed about Afghanistan; Pashtana Durrani is Interviewed about Afghanistan; Renewed Fears of Violence at the Capitol. Aired 9:30-10a ET.

Aired August 27, 2021 - 09:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[09:30:00]

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): When they were surrounded by the Taliban. So everybody bears some responsibility for sure. But the only people I hold responsible for the deaths are these evil terrorists and there has to be vengeance on them.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: Was the mistake by the Biden administration having an unconditional withdrawal here? In other words, not setting the very simple condition of, yes, we'll leave, but once we get all of our people out and people who worked for us out.

KINZINGER: Yes, this is - this is something I can't understand why it hasn't pivoted to this. Let's keep in mind, the whole August 31st deadline was self-imposed. It was originally -- Joe Biden said he wanted out September 11th. They realize that was pretty bad optics and he backed up to August 31st and it stuck.

You know, the Taliban knows, because they've been on the receiving end of American strength for 20 years, they can't beat us. So they - they understand that they have to, you know, do what we say on that front. Hey, we're going to leave, but we're bringing all the people we need with us.

Instead, I mean I think there's a lot of questions about how did this ISIS bomber get through a Taliban checkpoint. By the way, this - this insistence that the Taliban is at war with ISIS, like they're our newfound friends.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KINZINGER: That's not true. They want Americans to die as much as anything, the Taliban does.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KINZINGER: So there's a lot of questions.

And I think, you know, the other question is, when we talk about going after ISIS-K for this attack, how are we going to do it without anybody on the ground?

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KINZINGER: That's going to be difficult.

SCIUTTO: That was my next question because the president is talking a lot about an over the horizon capability. But as you well know, without intel assets on the ground, without boots on the ground, without airbases within the country that allow for, for instance, for greater overflight time for drones, right, as you're trying to track these targets and so on, this is going to be a big test. Are you confident? Do you believe the president can deliver on his promise to hunt these ISIS-K terrorists down?

KINZINGER: You know, I think it's possible we could get a little vengeance in terms of, hey, now we've killed some ISIS-K people. Maybe we'll find the people that planned and organized this. But you're not going to unravel the organization and it's going to be nothing more than I think implementing a few casualties and making us feel good about it.

If you think back in '99, it was, I think, Bill Clinton that launched a few missiles into Afghanistan to go after bin Laden and missed him.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Yes.

KINZINGER: And so that's it. Because, look, if you look at our -- the execution of our fight against ISIS, which was very successful in Iraq and Syria, we had people embedded with local forces on the ground and air power and intel assets. This is -- unless we have some new magic thing I'm unaware of, it's going to be difficult.

SCIUTTO: Yes, those missile attacks in '88 and '99, a good comparison, right, because the word was they had the targets but by the time the missiles launched the targets weren't there any more because they didn't have great intel on the ground.

As you know, GOP leader in the House, Kevin McCarthy, he's calling for a floor vote on a GOP measure that would limit the ability of the Pentagon to pull out forces on August 31st. Do you support such a measure?

KINZINGER: Well, I mean, it's kind of the devil's in the details. I - you know, I would support something that says we'll leave when the mission's complete, when all Americans are home, when our Afghan allies are home.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KINZINGER: What I don't think Congress should ever get into the business of is being commander in chief, but also being commander in chief for the purpose of politics. We can be angry at what Joe Biden has done. I am, right? I'm also angry at the setup that has been put here by Donald Trump. But I should never consider my election and domestic politics, particularly at this exactly moment when we're still engaged, you know, as anything but subservient to America's mission to get our people out of there.

SCIUTTO: As you know, there are some republicans who call - who have called for President Biden to resign over this. Do you believe the president should resign?

KINZINGER: I do believe some people on his national security team should resign. That's up to them and it's up to him. But, no, I mean, look, we impeach presidents for high crimes and misdemeanors. This is a very bad decision. Other presidents have made bad decisions, but I'm not going to call on the president to resign for this, nor to be impeached.

Look, we need some stability in our government. And we've gotten to this back and forth where, you know, it's just a constant battle of power, who can take over next year, instead of looking that this country needs some real help and - and we need actually grown up politics for once and not just kind of next-day news cycle politics.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

Looking forward here, the U.N. reports that many thousands of extremists are flooding into Afghanistan, that it's a new Disneyland, in effect, much as we saw with Syria following the ISIS takeover of Syria. Thousands from as far afield as Xinjong (ph) in western China, the Caucuses (ph), the former Soviet states, and elsewhere.

When you look at that, particularly someone like yourself, who fought in Afghanistan following 9/11, should Americans fear Afghanistan as a new location for terrorists to plot and plan attacks on the U.S. homeland?

KINZINGER: I don't like to peddle fear, I like to peddle facts. But, unfortunately, in this case, I think we should be fearful of that.

[09:35:02]

You know, here's the thing, we like to, as Americans, look back at World War II and talk about how strong our country is and how committed we are. And, obviously, World War II is an amazing story of American strength.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KINZINGER: But lately we've been susceptible to politicians like Rand Paul, Donald Trump and even Joe Biden talking about endless wars, making us feel tired. Yes, we've been in Afghanistan for 20 years. I get it. We had 2,500 troops there. We may need a few more. But the second we pull out, the endless war that everybody wants to quit actually has blown up even bigger. So we have lengthened the endless war by our lack of presence in Afghanistan and giving these people a place to plan and execute attacks.

SCIUTTO: Finally, I want to ask you a personal question, because this is personal for you. You fought there and I know you've lost brothers and sisters in arms in Afghanistan, as well as in Iraq. I've had a feeling in the pit of my stomach these last 24 hours

imagining the families, for instance, of the Marines who thought in days that they were going to be home, to die on the way out, in effect. I'm sure you've been talking to fellow veterans.

How do you talk about this now? What are they feeling right now as they watch this unfold?

KINZINGER: So, it's interesting, you know, veterans aren't monolithic in how we think about policy, so there are some veterans that want to get out of Afghanistan, some, like me, either think, you know, it serves a purpose to stay. But we all feel the same about just kind of this emptiness, right? You know, regardless of how you felt about it, you want to know you achieved something. Obviously, these 13 Marines killed hopefully will be the last killed in that theater. It's a sick feeling.

But the reality is, I think we need to do a little focusing. And I try to remind myself, and my fellow veterans of this, at the people's lives that we did revolutionize and change. There are a lot of people, a lot of women that are journalists and professors now that never would have been without America's involvement.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

KINZINGER: But, geopolitically, it's obviously going to be seen as a failure.

SCIUTTO: Listen, Congressman, we appreciate your service there, the service of other service members as well, and thanks so much for speaking so straightforward.

KINZINGER: You bet. Thanks, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Well, what is life like for those still living in Afghanistan in the wake of these attacks and going forward? We're going to speak to someone on the ground there now who could talk about the danger and what's to come.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:41:56]

SCIUTTO: Right now, the race to get people safely out of Afghanistan, particularly those who worked for the U.S. government or military is ongoing, even in the wake of yesterday's deadly attack at Kabul airport. President Biden is still vowing to help as many people as he can, priority on Americans, but hedging any promise to extend evacuations past his August 31st deadline.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: What do you say to the Afghans who helped troops who may not be able to get out by August 31st?

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I say -- QUESTON: What -- what do you say to them?

BIDEN: We're going to continue to try to get you out. It matters.

Look, I know of no conflict, as a student of history, no conflict where when a war was ending, one side was able to guarantee that everyone they wanted to be extracted from that country would get out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: I'm joined now by Pashtana Durani. She is the founder and executive director of LEARN. It's a non-profit organization centered on women's education in Afghanistan. She joins us now live from that country.

Pashtana, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

PASHTANA DURRANI, AFGHAN HUMAN RIGHTS ACTIVIST: Thank you for having me.

SCIUTTO: First I want to ask you, as the U.S. leaves, and we're just a few days away now, do you feel the U.S. is abandoning you and the Afghan people?

DURRANI: I think it was not the first place for -- to say that U.S. has taken upon us under her wings because the U.S. came for their own benefit, right, and for their own war. But it was (INAUDIBLE). That's what I'm saying. So, in that sense, I don't think there is an abandoning as seen, like - like abandon is a parent takes a son or a daughter and then they leave them, right? But in this case, it was not a thing, don't you think?

SCIUTTO: I hear you. And, of course, Afghans have shared responsibility, of course, and the primary responsibility for their future.

I wonder, are you disappointed? Are you disappointed in the Afghan military, for instance, as the Taliban advanced, or the Afghan government as, for instance, the president fled the country?

DURRANI: I think it would be a betrayal if I say that I'm disappointed in the Afghan army because (INAUDIBLE) freely. They did whatever they could and they were told to stop. Of course, the people who betrayed were the government and they told them not to fight any more.

There is a peace deal that has been reached. So you have to, like, you know, differentiate that. The army and the government, they are two different sectors, right, and the army (INAUDIBLE) and the government and the people in charge. And that's where the majority of our Afghan government as they were corrupt and they have failed us many times.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

DURRANI: Not this time, but many times. But we shouldn't be putting the blame upon the government or the military who did everything and anything and gave their lives to save this country. [09:45:06]

SCIUTTO: Let me ask you this now, because we know the Taliban's view of women's rights. We know the Taliban's view of educating young girls.

What is the future for the many Afghan women and girls that you've helped educate there? Are they now under threat?

DURRANI: Of course they are under threat. They -- we are told that we have to stay home until the Taliban fighters accept women in public spaces. But then I find it amusing and funny, I want to be honest, how do you -- what is your framework, what is your sort of theory on -- what is like theory of change that makes them accept women? What if they never get comfortable with women? What then? What is the deadline? What is the framework? That's the first thing.

The second thing is they opened up schools back from game 1 to grade 6. What about the mode (ph) 6 classes? What about universities? That's the second thing.

The third thing is the fact that we are so focused right now on the fact that the withdrawal happened. Nobody's talking about the civilians who are not living inside these key provinces. What about them? What about the public administration (INAUDIBLE)? What about the health care crisis? What about the educational crisis? What about the work force crisis? All those are crises right now happening in Afghanistan. Nobody even cares to address those.

SCIUTTO: Tell me about the terror threat because you have not only the Taliban, but ISIS-K, al Qaeda. They've shown their willingness yesterday and for years to attack and kill Afghan civilians regardless.

I wonder, how do you feel today following these brutal attacks? What's your fear?

DURRANI: I think when your president sees we will not forget and we will not forgive, it's exactly what he did. He forgave the Taliban. He forgot what they did. And he's leaving. And he -- there was no hunting down or anything.

SCIUTTO: Wow.

DURRANI: I'm not saying that human abuses didn't happen in the past two decades. But to be very clear, they happened. The government did.

But at the same time, you forgot, you forgave, and first phase of the Taliban, and you will do it when the ISIS do it.

So I think they are setting an example of the fact that every now and then when you fight a holy war and you recruit people and you murder people in suicide bombings, after two decades you are acceptable (ph), right?

SCIUTTO: Yes. DURRANI: So it's not just about Afghans right now, it's about the whole world. And I'm going to be honest, from before yesterday, and I would (INAUDIBLE) that there would be another threat or ISIS (INAUDIBLE).

But right now I feel like the fact that an example is being set, that we will (INAUDIBLE) in every other government that stays for two decades, and we will continue to do so in the future. And that's an example (INAUDIBLE).

SCIUTTO: Final question - I understand.

I just wonder, and I'm sure folks watching right now wonder, how can you stay safe? What do you do now to protect yourselves?

DURRANI: I don't stay safe. I'm like your president said that we are - we're in a country that is having (INAUDIBLE) fights about our tribes. So it's the tribes that are protecting me right now. It's the different ethnicities that are protecting me. It's the different allies that I have built over the course of years who are willing to protect me, who are everything.

SCIUTTO: Pashtana Durrani, I -- I'm sure many people watching -- appreciate and are in awe of your bravery. And we wish you safety in these coming days, weeks and months. Thank you.

DURRANI: Thank you. Bye-bye.

SCIUTTO: And we'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:53:08]

SCIUTTO: Well, lawmakers and law enforcement officials are growing concerned about the possibility of violence and unrest on Capitol Hill as two key dates loom next month, a right wing rally in support of jailed January 6th rioters and the 20th anniversary of the September 11th attack.

CNN's Melanie Zanona is on Capitol Hill.

And, Melanie, this is a very real concern. I've heard it from national security folks, intelligence folks, Hill folks for some time. Now you have two big dates coming up. What are you hearing?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, security preparations are already underway on Capitol Hill for this rally next month that is being organized by a former Trump campaign staffer in support of the jailed January 6th insurrectionist. There's serious talk of reinstating that fencing around the perimeter of the Capitol.

The NPD is going to be fully activated that weekend, meaning days off will be canceled, and civil disturbance units will be on stand-by throughout the weekend. And a memo was sent to its Capitol Police Department saying this group is known to attract far right extremist, so it is fair to expect possible bout of violence.

Now, the memo also notes that past similar events have not turned violent. Also, the event organizer has been told that only 300 people so far plan to attend and it is taking place on a Saturday, Jim. So that means - it's also recess, so that means less lawmakers, staffers and people on the Capitol community will be around.

But this comes just a week after a bomb scare here on Capitol Hill that did end without incident but sent a chill through the community nonetheless. And, of course, everyone on Capitol Hill is still very deeply shaken and scarred by the events of January 6th.

Just take a listen to what Madeleine Dean, a congresswoman, said to us. Said, you - the quote, you don't get an insurrection on January 6th and all threats of violence go away. In fact, the fear is that future planning will produce other violent acts. I am most concerned for my staff, but I'm also worried about the Capitol Police.

[09:55:05]

So just a clear window here into the concerns on Capitol Hill.

Everyone, of course, is hoping for the best but preparing for all possibilities and taking no chances.

Jim.

SCIUTTO: Melanie Zanona, good reporting.

We should note, still all these months later, none of those security recommendations, recommended following January 6th, at least few of them have been implemented, which is just remarkable.

ZANONA: Yes. Yes.

SCIUTTO: In just minutes, we're going to hear from the Pentagon in the wake of yesterday's deadly terrorist attack in Kabul. This morning, a senior White House official says the threat is not over.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:06]

SCIUTTO: Good Friday morning. I'm Jim Sciutto.

The terror threat is still out there.