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DHS Warns of Potential Violence Before Right-Wing Rally Tomorrow; Now, FDA Advisers Debate Need for COVID Vaccine Boosters; Tensions Bubble Up at DHS as Agency Confronts Multiple Crises. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired September 17, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:00]

ERICA HILL, CNN NEWSROOM: Even sooner.

Determined to prevent a repeat of January 6, security measures are fully in place ahead of Saturday's event. There's a new warning though from the Department of Homeland Security, which suggests that violent acts from people involved in or opposed to the Justice for J6 rally could actually begin today.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: That is according to an unclassified intelligence briefing that was shared with state and local authorities obtained by CNN.

Back on January 6, Michigan Congressman Dan Kildee was one of the lawmakers trapped in the gallery of the House chambers as rioters got inside. Here is what he told CNN this morning.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. DAN KILDEE (D-MI): Not only do we have this potential violence, we've already experienced it, we know it is possible. But we have the former president encouraging it and the stunning silence of the Republican leaders as this is all happening, treating it as if it is a walk in the park. It is very painful to see.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Not even just silence but outright defense, dismissal of the threat.

Let's begin in Washington. CNN Law Enforcement Correspondent Whitney Wild, she is outside the Capitol, right outside that fencing, surrounding it. Whitney, law enforcement clearly making sure it is more prepared this time around. So, what steps are they taking? What are they expecting?

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: Well, what they're expecting, Jim, is potentially hundreds of people to descend into Washington to support these, as the event organizer calls it, the nonviolent people who are charged in the January 6th insurrection. Sorry, it is a little bit noisy out here because they're still doing a little bit of last-minute tweaking on this fence here that surrounds the U.S. Capitol grounds, something that has become somewhat of a familiar site here in Washington following this January 6th insurrection.

They are prepared for potential violence today as well as tomorrow. And the concern, Jim, is that people might be potentially promoting violence in furtherance of this stolen election lie and furtherance of this support for people who were charged in the January 6 insurrection, looking at that as somewhat of a win. We've heard from federal law enforcement for months now that people may be emboldened by what they saw on January 6. That is why here in Washington, law enforcement is taking no chances.

Again, we have the fence. We know Capitol Police is working with local law enforcement to make sure there is a significant presence here. We know that they've requested assistance from the National Guard. We also know that they're working with intelligence, again, from this Department of Homeland Security intelligence briefing, that there are threats, at least an uptick in chatter, concerning chatter regarding members of Congress, regarding Democrats, regarding places of worship, for example, liberal churches, regarding members of the Jewish community.

While there is no specific credible plot, they are concerned enough that there is this heightened security presence here, Jim. We are going to hear from Capitol Police later today around 1:00. They will be answering questions from the public. But the main concern here is this potential for violence from people within the rally, counter- protesters and then also from a possible lone wolf attack, Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: All right. Whitney, I appreciate it. Thank you.

Well, meantime, as all of that's happening, Republicans navigating how they deal with tomorrow's rally. At the same time, a big announcement overnight from GOP Congressman Anthony Gonzalez. The Ohio lawmaker, one of ten House Republicans to vote for Trump's impeachment, says he's not running for re-election.

SCIUTTO: In an interview with The New York Times, Gonzalez cited the state of the party as a significant reason, saying, quote, politically, the environment is to toxic, especially in our own party right now. You can fight your butt off and win this thing but are you really going to be happy, and the answer is probably not.

Let's turn to CNN Capitol Hill Reporter Melanie Zanona. Melanie, what does is it mean for Republicans, because he is not the only one, right? I mean, Cheney has been abandoned by her own party, pushed out of leadership, Kinzinger, he's a target for a primary. So all of those ten, right, either flipped or they are leaving or they're being attacked.

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Right. House Minority Leader Kevin McCarthy is going to have to answer very serious questions about whether there is room there the Republican Party for dissent or if absolute loyalty to Trump is a requirement. I mean, look, this retirement announcement is stunning even if it is not surprising. Gonzalez was a top recruit for the GOP. He's only been in Congress for nine months. House Republicans also have a chance to win back the majority.

You just don't see retirements like this in this type of environment. But Gonzalez was being targeted by Trump, he was going to have to face a nasty primary, he was also concerned for his physical safety. That was another big issue for him, not just the toxic dynamics that he cited in the interview with The New York Times, and that toxic dynamic as well as the potential for violence will be on full display this Saturday at a rally being organized in support of jailed January 6 rioters.

And while Republican members have kept the rally at an arm's length, they have engaged in similar efforts to either whitewash or downplay the events of January 6.

[10:05:03]

Donald Trump put out a statement in support of the rioters yesterday, offering sympathy for them.

And someone who is speaking at the rally tomorrow, Joe Kent, a GOP congressional candidate in Washington State who is vying to take on Jaime Herrera Beutler. She, of course, is one of the other ten Republicans who voted to impeach Trump.

So, I think the big picture here is that the GOP tent is getting smaller and smaller and it is looking like there is little, if any, room for Trump critics inside of it. Jim and Erica?

SCIUTTO: Absolutely not. It seems to be a clear answer. Melanie Zanona on the Hill, thanks very much.

There has been recent online chatter calling for, in their words, justice for Ashli Babbitt, the pro-Trump rioter, you may remember, was shot and killed by a Capitol Police officer while storming the U.S. Capitol, throwing herself against a glass door. This new chatter is driving security concerns ahead of tomorrow's right-wing rally.

HILL: CNN Chief Media Correspondent Brian Stelter joining us now. So, what more do we know about that chatter? What is being said, Brian?

BRIAN STELTER, CNN CHIEF MEDIA CORRESPONDENT: Well, we know that the MAGA media universe and figures like Donald Trump are not encouraging people to go to Saturday's at the Capitol. That is a big difference from January 6. In fact, what we're seeing in some cases are the figures, these trusted figures on the far right saying, don't go, it is a trap.

Here is an example from a prominent QAnon promoter, saying, the D.C. fence has been reinstalled, do not go to the FBI rally. Notice the word there, FBI rally. So the suggestion is it is a setup. It is some sort of government plot.

And Donald Trump is taking a similar tone. In an interview with right- wing website, The Federalist, he said that the rally on Saturday is a set up. He said to the website that it is a set up. So it is another example of a very different tone heading into Saturday.

But we also see online is a diffusion of the extreme and dangerous rhetoric that was seen before January 6, whereas there needed to be a physical event to organize it all in January. These ideas, these extreme radical ideas about Ashli Babbitt being a martyr and about January 6 being a just cause, it has now spread throughout virtually the entire GOP and certainly through trusted right-wing media websites and outlets and networks. That is, I think, the big difference from January versus today.

Those ideas have been mainstream within the party. A new PRRI polling yesterday showed that most Republicans think January 6 was fault of antifa or left-wing activists, even though there is no evidence about that so much evidence to the contrary. They've created this alternative reality that's really fully taken effect now in the nine months since the riot. And I think as a result, this single rally, this physical rally may matter less than the digital conversation with people online cheering it on.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: It is quite a picture that you paint and a disturbing one at that. Brian Stelter, thank you.

SCIUTTO: Joining me now, Lieutenant General Russel Honore. He oversaw a review of Capitol Police and security for the Capitol in the aftermath of January 6. General, good to have you on.

LT. GEN. RUSSEL HONORE (RET.), LED REVIEW OF U.S. CAPITOL SECURITY: Good morning.

SCIUTTO: So, first, when you look at the measures adopted in advance of tomorrow's protest, fence back up, information sharing alert, that was one of the key shortcomings during January 6, as well as even ramped up airport security, checking folks who may be coming in, are they trying to bring weapons, et cetera. Are these changes, in your view, sufficient to prevent the potential for violence like we saw on January 6?

HONORE: Well, we have to be concerned with what the Department of Homeland Security has put out, that the potential for violence from this group based on the chatter their hearing and the past record of what happened on 1/6. So, the recommendations that we made as far as hardening the Capitol still have some work to do. The recommendations we made on hiring more police officers was rejected by Senator Leahy, so that hadn't been done.

So, when we left, there were 300 officers short. We recommended they hire another 600 to 700 officers. That was not considered and not funded. So, much has been done. We've got a new Capitol Police chief. We've got a new sergeant at arms in the House and the Senate. And they have taken measures responding to intelligence that is coming in.

But, look, Ryan -- Jim, they have to be ready for everything. They have to be ready for IEDs, bear spray, snipers, trap bombs, potential attacks on the D.C. Metro and the grid in D.C. Because when you deal with terrorism, you don't know what they're going to do. If this alert that came out about a foreign terrorist group, not only would we have 100 National Guard on standby, we've had Delta Force on standby. But we treat domestic terrorism with a soft glove in the United States. And we allow them to organize and give threats without taking actions.

[10:10:04]

SCIUTTO: And it becomes a partisan issue. On the issue of the National Guard, because that was one of the key recommendations you had when you led your security review, make them on standby, communication quicker so they could be mobilized quicker. Has that issue at least been solved?

HONORE: I understand there is 100 National Guard on standby at the armory. We recommended in the report that we have them 24/7, 365, just like we have National Guard jets on stand-by in D.C. But that was not accepted by Senator Leahy and his group. And in this case, they followed the protocol of the Capitol Police chief requesting National Guard be on standby and I understand that is the case. There is National Guard on standby at the armory.

But what happened at the attack on 3:00 on Sunday morning, terrorists are not going to do anything according to your script. They'll do it when it is most advantage to them. And by 3:00 on Sunday morning or Monday morning, those National Guard won't be standby. Those additional police won't be standby. And that is the issue of dealing with terrorism. You don't know what --

SCIUTTO: No question. Yes, they seek the path of least resistance. And that is connected to my next question. Because in recent weeks, we've seen two men arrested on Capitol Hill, one pulled up there in a pickup truck claiming to have a bomb, then you had another one caught with swastikas on his car and machete, knives, et cetera. I wonder should we begin to look at this threat to the Capitol not as date specific, like a rally, but an ongoing one, right? And how do you --

HONORE: Absolutely, sir. Absolutely, sir. And we've seen that happen in our lives from the story, remember, when the guy got on the airplane and try to set his fuel on fire, now we all have to take our shoes off and get them scared. Once terrorism strikes and theyr'e successful or close to being successful, then we take defensive measures.

Now, no one can even proceed when we might have open visitors with school kids going back to the Capitol because of the act of these terrorists and what they did on 1/6 trying to overthrow our government.

SCIUTTO: Lieutenant General, just before we go, just quickly, the president notably, former president, echoed exactly the call to arms of these rioters by saying the January 6 rioters we are persecuted unfairly. That is the exactly the cause behind tomorrow, the January 6 -- sorry the September 18th rally. Is the president deliberately fanning the flames here?

HONORE: I heard the same news you heard and he is flaming the flames just like he fanned the flames on 1/6. And I think he was complicit, he and the executive branch, in what happened on 1/6, but we'll leave that to the commission to sort it out and the Justice Department.

SCIUTTO: Lieutenant General Russel Honore, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

HONORE: Good day.

HILL: Still to come, the FDA could soon give its recommendation on COVID vaccine booster shots. They're meeting right now. That decision has been rushed though. Has it been rushed by the Biden administration?

SCIUTTO: Plus, more than 10,000 migrants are now camped under a Texas bridge. The White House is facing building pressure as the governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, has asked the National Guard for support.

HILL: And the prominent South Carolina attorney embroiled in scandal is now out on bail. The latest criminal investigation tied to the Murdaugh family later this hour.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

HILL: Today, FDA vaccine advisers could recommend Americans get COVID-19 booster shots, that meeting specifically focusing on Pfizer's vaccine, of course. Their decision could pave the way though for what is to come.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us now with more. Sanjay, I don't want to get too critical because I know that the data is coming in over time, data being analyzed over time and decisions perhaps changing, readings of that data changing over time. But I wonder, do you believe the administration got ahead of itself here in terms of announcing a hard date, a hard decision on booster shots?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, I mean, considering there are still a lot of divergent thoughts on whether or not these boosters should be recommended, certainly recommended for everyone, I would say so because when we heard this announcement from the White House, it sounded like it was a done deal, right? Here are the boosters, even setting a date for it, September 20th, which is Monday, FDA advisory committee meeting today, CDC advisory committee meeting not happening until next week. So, I think, clearly, the White House got ahead of themselves a bit on this.

It doesn't mean -- what they say is, look, we're trying to be prepared. We're trying to make sure everything is in place for the rollout of boosters. But there is important questions that need to be answered, which are coming up right now at this advisory committee meeting. So, some of them are how much is immunity really waning. That is a big question. Pfizer is put forth some data saying immunity wanes about 6 percent every six weeks or so. So, that is a piece of data, but the immunity does not wane as far as protection for severe illness.

How severe are the breakthrough infection? I mean, breakthrough infection can be someone who has no symptoms, all the way to people who are much sicker, does it seem to fall in a particular pattern, is that more so for the elderly, that's going to be an important point, and how long does the booster last and how much does it really reduce transmission, right?

[10:20:15]

I mean, that is a big question. How much do these vaccines reduce transmission?

Let me show you quickly Israel, because Israel has been a living lab in some ways. What we're seeing here in the United States, they're ahead of us in terms of vaccinations. They've been boosting since August. And they have some of the highest case rates right now that they've had throughout this entire pandemic. They're not seeing as many hospitalizations proportionately or deaths, thankfully, but if it is breakthrough cases that you're using to justify boosters, you have got to pay attention to what happened in Israel. It doesn't seem to be making as big of a difference there in terms of that.

HILL: And that's why, I guess, it is yet another reminder, right, of not only as Jim pointed out, I mean, the science is changing, as we talk about all the time, we're learning as we go, but all of those important questions that you raise, Sanjay, that are hopefully going to be discussed today or being at this very moment, it also raises a question of just how potentially damaging the rush and the back and forth is when it comes to public perception of the booster. Are you concerned at all about what could happen, let's say, for example, if the committee advises let's not do boosters right now?

GUPTA: Yes. I mean, I think, first of all, just in terms of messaging, leaving aside the science of it, for a second, I think it has been confusing, again, for those same reasons. Typically, you want to hear from your scientific agencies with two senior vaccine scientists saying they're going to leave the FDA. It is clear that the scientific agencies did not speak with a single voice here and it was sort of the job of the White House to make sure that the scientific agencies, everyone was on board first before making that sort of an announcement. And that is the sort of thing that confuses people.

Having said that, ultimately, I do believe the scientific process will work. The FDA will make -- either they will or they won't authorize this vaccine as a booster shot. Maybe they will say it is authorizes a booster for certain age group, like people over the age of 60 or 65, or maybe they'll say we're authorizing it but we're going to leave it to the CDC to make the official recommendation on who should actually receive these boosters. So, I ultimately, I think we'll be in a good place, a science-driven place, but it is muddled and understandably confusing for people. SCIUTTO: All right. You have a new documentary coming out this

weekend, which looks at the origins of COVID. I want to play a quick preview for our viewers. Have a look.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DAVID RELMAN, INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT, STANFORD UNIVERSITY: I tallied up the page numbers, the total, annex and main report for the laboratory was about 4 pages out of 313. And in those four pages, the title of the section was conspiracy theories.

GUPTA: There is a lot of smoke here, not a definitive flame, but database goes down. No sharing of samples of these potential lab workers who got sickened. No forensic analysis of the lab. It starts to sound like there wasn't a definitive investigation of the lab leak theory.

PETER DASZAK, WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION JOINT STUDY: Well, I think that is right. There has not been a definitive release of the lab leak theory.

GUPTA: Will there be?

DASZAK: Well, I think that it needs to follow the evidence. If there's definitive evidence of a lab leak, then that needs to be investigated. There is (INAUDIBLE).

GUPTA: But part of the reason there is none is because information is not being shared.

DASZAK: Right. If we want to see information shared from China about what went on in the lab, we need phase two to begin very rapidly.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

GUPTA: I'm going to tell you, so far, the Chinese government has rejected a phase two of this investigation, which is quite stunning. They're just basically saying, we're done with that part of the investigation. The Chinese government strongly disagreeing with the idea that this could have leaked from a lab, and even know pointing to other labs around the country, including in Fort Detrick, Maryland, saying, hey, go look over there. Maybe this thing could have originated in the United States. It is contentious, political and very hard to disentangle the politics from the science on this particular issue.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: Which makes it all the more frustrating, and yet at the same time not surprising. Dr. Sanjay Gupta, I appreciate it, as always. We will be watching this weekend. Thank you.

GUPTA: Thank you.

HILL: You can catch Dr. Sanjay Gupta's special report on The Origins of COVID-19 right here on CNN Sunday night, 8:00 Eastern. Up next, more than 10,000 people camped under the Del Rio Bridge in Texas, migrants and the White House facing an urgent situation. So where does it go from here?

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[10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: Well, the Department of Homeland Security is facing challenges on multiple fronts right now, the immediate crisis and influx of more than 10,000 migrants who are now camped out along the bridge along the U.S./Mexico border awaiting processing.

HILL: Sources tell CNN there are also internal disagreements about just how to handle that situation at the border, and we're learning about frustration that the infighting may have actually stalled the decision-making process.

Joining us now to discuss Zolan Kanno-Youngs, he's a CNN Political Analyst and White House Correspondent for The New York Times, who has also reported extensively on DHS.

[10:30:03]

And maybe we start there. What is happening right now? We have some -- there is a lot of concerns about what.