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D.C. Officials Prepare For Right-Wing Rally; FDA Considers Booster Shots. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 17, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:04]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Welcome to NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell. Good to be with you.

We are just now a few hours away from a crucial FDA decision. Its advisory panel is set to vote on whether millions of Americans should start getting COVID booster shots.

Now, this decision would impact people who have received both doses of the Pfizer vaccine. Advisers on the FDA panel are debating the issue right now. This is a live look at their Zoom call. They're weighing evidence from the U.K. and Israel, which shows that boosters are necessary because of waning immunity.

CAMEROTA: Now, the advice is not unanimous.

Two departing high-level FDA scientists say a booster shot is not needed at this time. President Biden's COVID response team had planned to begin distributing boosters next week, but even if this FDA panel signs off, another approval must come from the CDC.

President Biden's chief medical adviser, Dr. Anthony Fauci, today suggesting approval is likely.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ANTHONY FAUCI, CHIEF MEDICAL ADVISER TO PRESIDENT BIDEN: The data that I have seen, I believe, strongly suggests that will be the case. Our position about at least planning for the eventuation that we might have to give boosters, we certainly have planned and are very ready to go, pending the decision that's made from a regulatory standpoint.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen is here to explain the arguments for and against boosters.

So, Elizabeth, what are you learning from the meeting today?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Alisyn, this issue is so hotly contested, because the data just doesn't agree with each other.

Let's first look at the argument against boosters. This argument basically says the two shots, the two shots that so many of us have had, they are enough. In countries besides Israel -- and I will get to Israel in a minute -- in countries besides Israel, data shows that two shots are very successful at preventing severe COVID-19.

And they say that's what vaccines are supposed to do. They're supposed to keep you from ending up in the hospital or the morgue. And, really, only Israel pretty much has data showing that booster shots work and really the reason for that is that Israel is one of the very few countries that has done boosters. So Israel has data showing that boosters work, but they're really kind of alone in that regard.

And now let's take a look at the arguments for COVID-19 booster shots. A lot of that comes from Israeli data that looks at people over age 60. It says, months after the second shot, there's an increase in severe illness. In other words, they said, once that second shot started to wane, they saw severe illness go up.

And after boosters, they saw a decrease in severe illness. To the Israelis, this is very simple. They say that having these boosters has really helped keep their hospitalizations under control. Let's take a listen to an Israeli public health doctor who spoke at the meeting just moments ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SHARON ALROY-PREIS, ISRAELI DIRECTOR OF PUBLIC HEALTH SERVICES: If we had not started booster doses at the end of July, we would have come to the capacity of Israel hospitalization capabilities and probably have gone beyond it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: Now, much of the data, including some of the data that Dr. Alroy-Preis just talked about, it has just come out in the past couple of days. This data is just so new, literally coming into medical journals just within the past 24 to 48 hours -- Victor, Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Elizabeth, let's talk about that, because there were these three big studies on boosters just published in "The New England Journal of Medicine" on Wednesday night.

Here we are on Friday afternoon. They have got to make a decision on moving forward on boosters, and there are complaints that the Biden administration is rushing this. Explain that. What are you hearing?

COHEN: So, usually, with these meetings, with these FDA advisory meetings, Victor, these doctors, these advisers, they get the data weeks in advance.

I mean, it is not usually like this, where you get something coming out in "The New England Journal of Medicine" at 5:00 p.m. on Wednesday and they meet at 8:00 a.m. on Friday. That is not much time to review all the data. And several doctors I have talked to have really been pretty unhappy with this.

So let's look at a quote from one of them. This is Dr. Paul Offit. He's an infectious disease specialist at the University of Pennsylvania, and he's a member of this FDA advisory committee. He said to me this morning: "I don't understand why it has to be so rushed. I think the rush is that the date was set by the Biden administration. The Biden administration gave a date, and now we're scrambling to meet that date."

In other words, what Dr. Offit is saying, back in August, President Biden himself said, we want to do boosters starting the week of September 20th, pending FDA and CDC approval.

That's -- it's not usually done that way, and Dr. Offit and others say, because President Biden set a date, that means we now have to rush this, and they do feel rushed, many of them.

CAMEROTA: OK, Elizabeth Cohen, thank you very much for explaining everything that's happening in that meeting right now.

[14:05:00]

Let's bring in our medical experts. Dr. Stephen Thomas, he's a coordinating principal investigator for Pfizer's phase three trial. He also helped lead its global vaccine trial. And Dr. Chris Pernell is a public health physician who volunteered in a Moderna vaccine trial.

Great to have both of you.

Dr. Thomas, let's assume that the FDA says yes to boosters and then the CDC says yes to boosters. Who's affected by this? Is this just for immunocompromised people or people over 65 or all of us?

DR. STEPHEN THOMAS, COORDINATING PRINCIPAL INVESTIGATOR FOR PFIZER PHASE THREE TRIAL: Yes, good afternoon, and thanks for having me.

So, you remember, in the middle of August, the federal government already allowed third doses to be given to certain immunosuppressed populations, so people with solid organ transplants and certain forms of cancer.

So, what we're talking about now is a little bit different, all right? It's a booster dose for people who had an adequate or normal response to the first two doses.

So, I think the FDA today is going to say, one, is it safe to get a third dose? Number two, does it actually do what it's supposed to do, which is rev up that immune response or antibody response? And then the third key question is what you highlighted, which is, who should actually get it?

And I think what they're trying to tease apart is, who really is at risk for not having a booster dose, and who is ending up in the hospital? Who is ending up with severe disease, and who would stand to benefit the most from a booster dose?

BLACKWELL: Dr. Pernell, Dr. Fauci said that he strongly believes and the data strongly suggests that a Pfizer booster will be recommended.

We also have those two outgoing FDA officials who say that there is no evidence that the general population needs a booster. This is not like a slight, nuanced disagreement. These are polar contradictions. Should we have expected this? Because we have not followed this process of FDA approval and authorization closely like this in recent history.

Is this common? And if not, why are we seeing a contradiction like this?

DR. CHRIS PERNELL, PUBLIC HEALTH PHYSICIAN: I think it's necessary. I think it's very necessary dialogue because we have to get this right.

And the reason why we have to get this right is because not only are we discussing whether or not those who have been fully vaccinated should have a third boost dose, but we still have a sizable amount of American public that is unvaccinated.

So, they're listening. This process is very illuminating and it's a lesson in public health communication 101. It's a lesson in the regulatory process, and I think all of us should take pause and intensely reflect on, let the data show what the data shows, and then speak only with certainty what the data tells us with certainty.

I do agree that boosters are going to be likely recommended, but I also think that those boosters will be prioritized in the groups who are most at risk for hospitalization or severe disease or death.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Thomas, what does the data show in terms of when the immunity wears off? What is the evidence saying?

THOMAS: Yes, so immunity is something that we measure in a laboratory, right?

It's the impact of declining immunity which is what creates the public health burden. So, does that immunity go below a level that places people at risk for, again, getting infected and ending up in the hospital? I don't think there's any doubt that their immunity wanes over time, just like every other vaccine.

The question is, who is going to be at greatest risk of that waning immunity allowing them to be infected and allowing them to have severe disease? And, again, there's some conflicting data out there from around the world, where it shows that, yes, the vaccine is declining in its ability to prevent infection or to prevent mild disease, but the protection against severe disease, hospitalization and death is remaining stable, well above 70 percent.

So there's some conflicting information out there.

BLACKWELL: Dr. Pernell, let's put this conversation in the context of this surge that we're seeing in parts of the country.

We're talking about a third shot for people who already have strong protection from being fully vaccinated. Contrast the value of that third shot in the mitigation of the pandemic vs. getting a first shot for people who are unvaccinated, what the impact will be.

PERNELL: Definitely, Victor.

I think the priority goes to those who are unvaccinated, because we see the virus continue to rip through, rip through unvaccinated communities. We see health systems that are at the brink. We see health systems that are overwhelmed

And until we get a more sizable proportion of the American population vaccinated, we won't be able to turn the corner on this pandemic in a sustainable way.

So, while we are talking about boosters for those who are fully protected, we need to keep sight of the fullness of the endgame. And I think we can do both, but we just need to right-size that messaging and we need to right-size that urgency.

[14:10:00]

And, also, we have children. We have children under the age of 12 who yet don't have an authorized or approved vaccine to provide protection for them. So there are several issues on the table and there are several things that we have to keep in our line of sight to help the public navigate these waters.

CAMEROTA: Dr. Thomas, Dr. Pernell, thank you both very much for helping us understand that the data is not definitive right now, and that there are still lots of questions as these researchers try to figure out what the next guidance is. We appreciate it.

BLACKWELL: All right, thank you both.

Now, as we await the FDA decision on booster shots, hospitals across the country, they're being overwhelmed.

CAMEROTA: In Idaho, there's this dramatic surge of patients, and so it has hospitals there rationing care. The system is so overwhelmed that Idaho is resorting to sending patients to Washington state and beyond.

CNN's Jason Carroll has the story.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JASON CARROLL, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Idaho, one of the least vaccinated states, is facing a dire development. Hospitals there are overwhelmed with the number of COVID patients, so much so, medical officials activated crisis standards of care and will now ration treatment if needed.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our ICUs are not only full. They're overflowing. The vast majority of our patients in our intensive care units are COVID-positive; 98 percent of them are unvaccinated.

CARROLL: Some Florida emergency rooms also reeling from the effects of unvaccinated patients taxing the system. Nathaniel Osborn says his 12-year-old son's appendix burst while he

waited to be seen in a packed emergency room.

NATHANIEL OSBORN, FATHER: It was awfully full. You know, my wife and I had to stand while we were waiting. Ended up being six, perhaps six- and-a-half-hours. It was difficult, sitting there with him, kind of watching your child kind of shiver in pain.

CARROLL: Mississippi has now surpassed New Jersey as the state with the highest per capita death toll from COVID-19; 15 pregnant women have died from COVID-19 since the start of the pandemic in that state.

DR. THOMAS DOBBS, MISSISSIPPI STATE HEALTH OFFICER: Very much a tragedy, but, of that number, eight of them have been lost since the end of July, and we do have some details about those moms that are, I think, worth sharing. The age range is between 23 and 40, with the median age being 30; 60 percent are African-American, 100 percent not fully vaccinated.

CARROLL: Meanwhile, the White House today touting vaccine requirements and tying them to the country's economic recovery.

JEFF ZIENTS, WHITE HOUSE COVID-19 RESPONSE COORDINATOR: By increasing the number of workers that are vaccinated, vaccination requirements will keep workplaces safe and help curb the spread of the virus in communities.

That means more Americans getting back to work. It means safer schools and healthier families. It means more consumers dining out and shopping at their local small businesses.

CARROLL: But in New York City Thursday, the latest example of just how combative the issue has become. Three women from Texas were arrested yesterday after assaulting a restaurant hostess who asked them to show their proof of vaccinations, which is now required for indoor dining in New York City.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CARROLL: And guys, this new development coming from the CDC today. They released the results of a new study where they did a matchup with all three of the approved vaccines, and they found that Moderna was slightly more effective than Pfizer in keeping people out of hospitals, Johnson & Johnson coming in third in that new CDC study.

But medical experts say to all of those people out there who are not vaccinated, get vaccinated, and any one of the approved vaccinations will do -- guys, back to you.

CAMEROTA: Jason Carroll, thank you.

Can you believe that video? That poor 20-something-year-old hostess having to take punches to the face because the policy is in New York that you need to show your vaccine card.

BLACKWELL: She's just doing her job. And for someone coming from Texas who is now not used to having to wear a mask or showing any vaccine card, comes here to New York and takes it out on this young woman is deplorable.

CAMEROTA: Absolutely.

So, meanwhile, Capitol Police just gave an update on their preparations for tomorrow's right-wing rally in support of the January 6 rioters. The warnings, by the way, stretch across the U.S.

BLACKWELL: And the number of migrants arriving at the border town of Del Rio, Texas, keeps growing. More than 12,000 people are now camped out under a bridge.

We're going to take you there.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:18:57]

BLACKWELL: Law enforcement officers in Washington are on high alert today ahead of a rally planned for tomorrow in support of the January 6 insurrectionists.

The Department of Homeland Security is warning of the potential for violence starting today.

CNN crime and justice correspondent Shimon Prokupecz is live outside of the Capitol.

So, Shimon, last hour, we heard U.S. Capitol police say they have received threats of violence. So how are they responding?

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Threats of violence, Alisyn, and also threats against congress members. So they're dealing with that.

They say they're in an enhanced security posture. They're hoping for a peaceful event, obviously, but they're prepared. They said they're going to be able to handle whatever it is that occurs and that also the Washington, D.C., police, they're also going to be fully activated, because one of the concerns here is that there's going to be clashes between some of the other groups that they think are coming in and these groups are going to start fighting with each other.

So that is one of the added concerns in all of this. Of course, the National Guard will be here. The big thing, what's causing all of this concern is chatter. It's the intelligence that the Washington police here, that law enforcement all across the country has been gathering.

[14:20:08]

Here's the Capitol Police chief talking about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TOM MANGER, U.S. CAPITOL POLICE CHIEF: We would be foolish not to take seriously the intelligence that we have at our disposal.

How credible it is, how likely it is, people can make those judgments, but the fact of the matter is that we are hearing some chatter that I think would be responsible for us to plan the way we have been planning and put the precautions in place.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: Alisyn and Victor, I moved over to this side because I wanted to show you something.

So, this is the area Union Square. This is where the rally is going to take place. This is where the permit is for. So you can see some of the metal gates there that the police and authorities have put up. But what's so striking is when you look and see how close it is to the Capitol. So, of course, that is why we're seeing a lot of the fencing here.

And then when you look up, that area, that, of course, everyone will remember from January 6, when so many of the insurrectionists, it's how they got in, so many of them storming the Capitol through those stairs. So, that is why we're seeing such security here. Of course, it's the intelligence, some of the information they're gathering.

But they're saying they're going to be ready for whatever it is that comes. And they're going to be here and the police are going to be here, so everyone will be ready and they're hoping, obviously, for a peaceful event.

BLACKWELL: All right, Shimon Prokupecz for us there at the Capitol.

Shimon, thank you so much.

With us now, former CIA intelligence officer David Priess. He is now the COO of Lawfare. He's also the author of "The President's Book of Secrets." Also with us, former U.S. Army Sergeant Kristofer Goldsmith. He's an intelligence, extremism, and disinformation analyst.

Welcome to you both.

Kris, I want to start with you.

You don't expect the crowds or the -- I guess, the hardened headline- grabbing, those groups that we saw on January 6. You say this won't even be the B-team. Explain to me what you're expecting to see tomorrow.

SGT. KRISTOFER GOLDSMITH (RET.), U.S. ARMY: Yes, this is not even the B-team. This is like the last people who were invited to January 6.

What made January 6 such a big deal is that we had a sitting president who was encouraging people to engage in violence. We had huge PACs who were paying for buses to go across the country and bus people into D.C., organizations like Turning Point USA, Women For Trump, Latinos For Trump, Veteran For Trump. They're the ones who hosted events in the days prior to what happened on January 6, so that they could amp up the crowd. Now, groups like the Proud Boys, the Oath Keepers, the 3 Percenters, they kind of learned their lesson and they realized, OK, if we act as actual insurrectionists and play our little LARPing games with the cops, we're going to end up behind bars.

And what's happening right now in D.C. is the appropriate reaction, and what's happening in the media is the appropriate reaction, because intel analysts like myself were screaming and waving flags ahead of January 6, and people -- not enough people listened.

Today, that's no longer going to happen. So, what this is, happening in D.C., is a dry run. We're seeing -- the government is seeing how fast it can coordinate interagencies with the local police in Washington, D.C., with Capitol Police, with the National Guard.

So this is a good dry run, because these crowds, the moneyed crowds backed by the super PACs, they're going to come back. And it's a matter of making sure that we provide disincentives.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

GOLDSMITH: Now, what's happening is because there's so much attention on D.C., it's disincentivized these groups, and instead they're going to be protesting at capitols around the country, not just this weekend, but also next weekend.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Yes, and I do want to get to that. Yes. I do want to get to what's going to happen around the country, because so many of our viewers are not necessarily in Washington, D.C.

But, David, first, one of the most shocking aspects of all this is that former President Trump has put out a statement where he stands with the vandals and the rioters. He stands with -- his hearts and his minds are with the people who, let's remember, damaged the Capitol and injured 140 Capitol Police officers, some of them grievously.

They sprayed bear spray at them. They beat them with flagpoles and metal poles. That's who he stands with. And so anyone who supports the president's position, how can they ever again say that blue lives matter or they stand with the police? This is the most anti-cop, anti- police statement that Donald Trump could put out.

DAVID PRIESS, FORMER CIA OFFICER: Well, that's right. And this may not be the A-team, but these are people who feel like the former president is calling them the A-team, and they're people who probably want to be on the A-team.

[14:25:03]

And what's one way of doing that for yourself? Even if you're in a group that's only a few hundred, instead of 10,000, sparking some violence, maybe initiating a clash with some counterprotesters, that can get you some attention. That can make you more prominent in the Web sites and in the bubbles in which these groups operate.

So, I don't rule out the idea that there could be violence simply because of that dynamic. Also, even though we're not talking about 10,000 people most likely in Washington, in any of these cases, you can get even a small version of a mob mentality, where someone chanting goes a little bit more in terms of violent, someone tries to get other people to take physical action and not just vocal action. And that can create some momentum.

Now, it sure looks like, at least in Washington, that the authorities are prepared. And I will say that the DHS intelligence office has done a good job, both on August 13 with the previous advisory, and with the most recent bulletin, of making state, local, tribal and territorial officials aware of the dynamics so that they can be prepared wherever these things happen, be it state capitols, Portland, or Washington, D.C.

BLACKWELL: Kris, obviously, they're prepared and on high alert because of what we saw January 6.

But one of my producers came up and said, if this is not what is expected, what's the impact moving forward? And using the analogy of hurricane coverage, which we have done for so long, if a forecaster says it's going to be a Category 2 and you get ready for a Category 2, but you get hit by a tropical storm, are you less likely to take all the precautions the next time they say a Category 2 is coming?

What's the impact, if this is a dud, for law enforcement and preparation moving forward?

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: That was for Kris.

(CROSSTALK)

GOLDSMITH: And I don't think that -- I'm sorry.

I don't think that this is going to be a big event. There's always the chance that there's going to be some lone crazy actor who tries to make a name for themselves, maybe even brings serious weapons.

But police are on the lookout. They're acting appropriately. And if nothing happens at all, that's because the system worked. It's not because the warnings were inaccurate. It's because the warnings and the preparations disincentivized any sort of crazy insurrectionist behavior.

CAMEROTA: Yes, the cops have to be right every time, as we know, and the criminals and the vandals have to only find a loophole once, and then it's chaos.

David Priess and Kristofer Goldsmith, thank you very much for all of your expertise. Great to talk to you.

GOLDSMITH: Thank you.

PRIESS: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Now to this.

Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger sharply attacked former President Trump on Twitter, this after the former president attacked Ohio Republican lawmaker Anthony Gonzalez. Now, Gonzalez was one of the 10 Republicans who voted for President Trump's impeachment, and he said he will not run again for reelection in part because of the threats that his family has been facing.

So, Kinzinger, Congressman Kinzinger, responded with this tweet: "Trump is a weak man who preys on fear. I couldn't imagine being his age and obsessing about myself so much, knowing my legacy was destroyed."

BLACKWELL: But who didn't expect that Trump would have something to say after Congressman Gonzalez said he wouldn't run?

CAMEROTA: I think that Adam Kinzinger just speaks his mind.

BLACKWELL: Yes.

CAMEROTA: It's not that it's unexpected. I think he just says what's on his mind when it comes to Donald Trump.

BLACKWELL: Right.

CAMEROTA: Meanwhile, this story.

Border agents in the city of Del Rio, Texas, are overwhelmed because the number of migrants arriving there is surging.

BLACKWELL: And the FBI is now joining the investigation into the disappearance of Gabby Petito. Plus, we're hearing from her fiance's family for the first time.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:30:00]