Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

CIA Warned Civilians Were Present Seconds Before U.S. Strike Killed 10; Right-Wing Rally Met With Massive Presence On Capitol Hill; Interview With Rep. Eric Swalwell (D-CA); FDA Recommends Pfizer Booster For Over 65 And High-Risk Individuals; CDC-Led Study: Moderna Is Most Effective Vaccine But Pfizer and J&J Also Protect Well; Three Texas Women Arrested In NYC For Assaulting Restaurant Worker Asking For Vaccination Proof. Aired 3-4p ET

Aired September 18, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

FREDRICKA WHITFIELD, CNN HOST: We're going into the next hour. Professor Yohuru Williams, thank you so much. Of course, we'll all be watching the all-new CNN Film, "THE PRICE OF FREEDOM," premiering tomorrow at 9:00 p.m. Eastern only on CNN.

I'm Fredricka Whitfield. Thanks for joining us. Jim Acosta is next.

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN Breaking News.

JIM ACOSTA, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington. And we have breaking news to start with.

Just in to CNN, seconds before a U.S. drone strike hit in Kabul late last month, the CIA issued an urgent warning saying civilians were likely in the area including children, possibly inside the vehicle that was targeted. But it was too late. That missile killed 10 innocent people.

The Pentagon initially said an ISIS-K suspect was in the car and was carrying explosives but yesterday Defense officials admitted there was no terrorist present and the strike actually killed an Afghan aid worker bringing water home for his family. Also killed two other adults and seven children.

Let's get right to CNN senior national security correspondent Alex Marquardt who is with me here in Washington.

Alex, what do we know about the CIA warning and the sequence of events here? This story just gets worse and worse.

ALEX MARQUARDT, CNN SENIOR NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: This was already a story about how the intelligence had failed by tracking this person who they thought was an ISIS member, and clearly isn't. Now, this is a story also about bad communication.

The CIA knew that there were civilians in the area, children in the area near this car, and gave this warning. But it was too late. This coming seconds before that Hellfire missile was dropped from that drone, and it tore through Zamarai Ahmadi's car, killing him and nine others. Now it's unclear whether the CIA knew that the military had planned on carrying out any sort of air strike but it is clear that there was some sort of miscommunication.

What was interesting yesterday, when we heard the head of Central Command, General McKenzie admitting that this was a terrible mistake, he did not admit that this was a complete and utter failure. Essentially saying that some parts of this intelligence operation were good. He said that there were 60 pieces of intelligence, indicating that there would be an imminent attack, and kept trying to emphasize the fact that this was a very dynamic situation, and that these decisions were made against this backdrop.

But this was clearly an abject intelligence failure. They tracked this 43-year-old aid worker for eight hours throughout the streets of Kabul. They saw he and others loading what they thought were explosives, but what turned out to be water into his car, before driving home near the airport, and that's when that strike happened.

Remember, Jim, just a couple of days after the strike, you heard the chairman of the Joint Chiefs calling this a righteous strike and allowing for the fact that some civilians might have been killed. At the end of the day, not only was -- were these not collateral civilians killed in a strike against ISIS, there was no ISIS element whatsoever.

ACOSTA: Yes. And Alex, what was supposed to be solved during the global war on terrorism was that we were supposed to have all of these people talking to one another in these kinds of operations, military, intelligence, people in the administration, and so on, and it seems like it was just an epic fail on this front. They're supposed to talk to one another and it just doesn't look like that happened there.

MARQUARDT: This is going to raise all sorts of questions about what they call the over-the-horizon strikes, and that means from outside the country. This is what the White House has said they will be able to do with no military presence on the ground.

The Pentagon is saying, well, you know, if they're going to go after ISIS in Afghanistan in the future they'll have a lot more time. In this situation, they didn't have enough time. But it raises all sorts of questions about who's in charge of these kinds of strikes.

Is it the CIA and the intelligence community? Is it the military? How are they going to communicate with each other? And yesterday, in admitting the mistake, the secretary of Defense Lloyd Austin said that a review for this -- for the processes and procedures needs to happen now.

ACOSTA: Yes. A review is certainly needed. No question about it. All right, Alex Marquardt, thank you very much. Our senior national security correspondent.

Now to Capitol Hill, and this is what happens when you learn from history. Credible threats of violence once again surrounding a right- wing rally at the Capitol, but this time it was met with a major show of force. Lines of law enforcement, fencing, road closures, all sending a clear message to rallygoers, do not try this again.

They started gathering early today in support of pro-Trump January 6th insurrectionists who have been arrested and charged, many of whom stormed the Capitol, destroyed property and attacked police officers. So as online chatter around today's event turned increasingly violent, zero chances were taken and apparently these precautionary measures are paying off.

Let's go to CNN's Shimon Prokupecz. He was live up on Capitol Hill.

Shimon, how much of this rally is still going on? It looks quiet there. But I supposed the fact that nothing significant has happened so far is notable in light of all of the preparations that were made today.

[15:05:05]

SHIMON PROKUPECZ, CNN CRIME AND JUSTICE REPORTER: Yes. Certainly very notable. It's all over now, Jim. The police have gone, as you can see even behind me. All day there were police officers behind me. They all have gone. The protesters, rally-goers, what it is, they're all gone. And most of the people are just milling here at this point, just hanging out. Some people just talking.

I actually got a chance to talk to some of the rally-goers and it was very interesting to hear what some of them have to say. Of course, they believe that there was no insurrection, that people were just merely going in the Capitol, perhaps maybe trespassing, but none of them, certainly the ones that were here, felt it was a serious, as it really was.

Take a listen to what one of the people who was attending here, when I was asking questions about that day, take a listen to what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's a public building. I mean people have been held all this time, I think the most severe charge any of them has is trespassing.

PROKUPECZ: But there are some who are charged with assaulting officers.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Those are lies.

PROKUPECZ: And so you don't believe the video? On video, they're seen assaulting police officers. You don't think that happened? You think that's made up?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Show me that video.

PROKUPECZ: You haven't seen the video?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

PROKUPECZ: You haven't seen officers being dragged on the ground? UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

PROKUPECZ: You haven't seen that video?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No. Please show me if it exists.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And so, Jim, we did. My producer Matt Freedman here, we pulled up the video, we showed it to him, and take a listen to what else he had to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He's pushing back with an open hand. He's not even moving his hand quickly. That's not assault. No.

PROKUPECZ: So you don't think what they're doing here was an assault?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: He could easily back up.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: That's a police officer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes, he could easily back up.

PROKUPECZ: So it's the officer's fault?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. This is not assault.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

PROKUPECZ: And Jim, that was that video that was seen by so many, so many people, key evidence in this investigation, where you're seeing the insurrectionists pushing, slamming the door against those officers, but that wasn't the only video. There are other videos where we see officers on the ground being dragged.

It just seems, Jim, that it would take almost a miracle to convince some of the people who were here that this was a very serious situation. They all have downplayed it. In this instance, this individual blaming the police for what happened, and sort of they should have just gotten out of the way.

ACOSTA: They're in a state of denial, Shimon, is what it is. I mean that's just extraordinary to meet somebody who says show me the video and then you show them the video, and they're still not convinced. It just shows you how sinister this world of disinformation is that we're all living in right now.

All right, Shimon Prokupecz, thank you so much for that report.

Joining me now is the former deputy director of the FBI, Andrew McCabe, he's also a senior law enforcement analyst for CNN and the author of the book "The Threat: How the FBI Protects America in the Age of Terror and Trump." Andrew, today, obviously, was different than January 6th. Thank

goodness. In the sense that we are prepared, we didn't see as many people this time. My goodness, I was there on the National Mall earlier this morning and I saw, they lined up dump trucks in front of the Capitol in addition to the fencing that they had there. Hopefully all of that discouraged these protesters from coming and causing this mayhem and chaos.

But what about what Shimon Prokupecz was just telling us a few moments ago. I just want to get your reaction to that. He showed -- somebody said they didn't believe what happened on January 6th that there are people beating up the cops. He showed video of the rioters beating up the cops, and then the guy still didn't believe it.

ANDREW MCCABE, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Yes, Jim, I think what this tells us in a very powerful way is OK, we seem to be past the 18th, right, the Justice for January 6th rally, but we have not gotten past what is driving this incredibly dangerous and concerning condition in our country, and that is how deeply divided we are, so much so that people who are committed to those beliefs, to these lies, to these conspiracy theories, to the whitewash that's been propagated by some of the most high profile political figures we have in this country, they are not going to give up those beliefs, those grievances, that anger, that is essentially what caused what we all saw on January 6th to happen.

You can't confront them with evidence. They're not going to change their minds. And that means that those underlying conditions that lead to extremist violence continue to perpetuate long after the Justice for January 6th rally today.

ACOSTA: And getting back to all those precautionary measures, is that what it's going to take to ensure that there's not another insurrection? Are we just going to have to get used to this?

MCCABE: I think we are. You know, what you saw today was law enforcement working well.

[15:05:04]

This is what the law enforcement and community in D.C. does very well, prepares for the worst, right? They do this for inaugurations. They do it for national security special events like the State of the Union. And that's what they did today. I think they're going to be laser- focused on the intelligence leading up to all of these sorts of rallies. They're going to be looking for those -- that chatter, that commentary, that encourages violent action, and when they see, you're going to see a massive 100 percent response rolled out.

It's expensive. It's ugly. It's time-consuming. Nobody likes it. But that's what we have to do to make sure January 6th doesn't happen again.

ACOSTA: And of course, this is all coming as former President Trump continues to stoke the fire, expressing support this week for these jailed insurrectionists, saying hearts and minds are with them when our hearts and minds are not with them. How dangerous is this?

MCCABE: It's very dangerous. I think that's another really good message that we can take from the way today developed. What we see today is the impact of having Trump actively fanning the flames of these sorts of rallies or not. He clearly did that on January 6th. He brought those people to D.C. He told them to march on the Capitol. They respond to his direction.

For today's rally, clearly a very different position by the former president. He downplayed it, said it was a setup, which of course it wasn't. And then really didn't support it very much. And so I think you saw that reflected in a lackluster attendance. That's not to say that tomorrow or next month or six months from now, there is not another major rally that former President Trump decides to get behind and push, and we could be right back to where we started.

ACOSTA: All right, Andrew McCabe, thanks so much for those insights. We appreciate it as always.

MCCABE: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right. My next guest says tonight's right-wing rally -- today's right-wing rally celebrates cop killers. We'll talk to Congressman Eric Swalwell about what it was like seeing this rally happen eight months after the deadly insurrection. The congressman is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:16:13]

ACOSTA: We've been following the long-planned right-wing rally at the U.S. Capitol today and after incredible threats of violence, the U.S. Capitol Police Department pulled out all the stops to prevent this from turning into another January 6th. The entire point of this rally was to show support for the January 6th insurrectionists who have been charged with crimes.

Let me bring in California Democratic Congressman Eric Swalwell.

Congressman, you were on CNN recently describing today's rally as sort of a celebration of, quote, "cop killers" but it wasn't much of a celebration after all. What is it like, though, seeing the Capitol turn into a fortress yet again? I mean, the thing that I thought was just so awful about this is that not only did they put the fencing out there, we had dump trucks lined up in front of the Capitol, just the police out in force, all because of what happened on January 6th.

REP. ERIC SWALWELL (D-CA): Jim, it's no way for a democracy to sustain itself, and it was not comfortable to read an e-mail yesterday from the sergeant-of-arms urging members to stay home. Now I didn't intend to be at the Capitol today. We'll be back there on Monday. But this is the seat of democracy. And to think that it may not be safe from these insurrectionists, that's really concerning.

Now, you're right, the police showed up in force, they had the presence that they should have had on January 6th, considering what Donald Trump was promising, and I think that may have been a deterrent. Also, perhaps Donald Trump's ability to inspire people to show up on his behalf may also be fading. But that doesn't mean we should let our guard down.

I really feel, though, Jim, for the police officers who stood guard there today, who also stood guard at the Capitol, and may have suffered injuries on January 6th. This must have been triggering and traumatizing, and this vigil is held at a time when, one, these people aren't worthy of a vigil but, two, many officers have not yet even returned to the Capitol from the injuries they suffered.

So it'd be like having a September 11th vigil for the hijackers, so thankfully, no one was hurt today, and look forward to getting back to business as usual.

ACOSTA: And what did you make of this nonsense that they were describing this as a rally for, quote-unquote, "political prisoners"?

SWALWELL: You know, I've served in Congress with political prisoners. John Lewis, the late John Lewis, you know, God rest his soul, these are no John Lewises in jail. These are not, you know, letters being sent from the Birmingham jail, that these insurrectionists, you know, are sending out for their supporters. These are people who attacked police officers, wanted to hang the vice president and the speaker of the House. They're not worthy of our sympathy.

But the real concern here is you're seeing a decrease in Republican leadership willing to condemn, you know, these types of rallies, Kevin McCarthy has said nothing, and a real increase in Republican members of Congress willing to suggest that violence may be necessary. As we saw, Madison Cawthorn, a North Carolina representative, recently say that it may resort to bloodshed if people continue to not believe the election was stolen.

ACOSTA: Isn't some of this driven by the Republican base these days, though, Congressman? Trump's lies about the election have clearly spread. A new CNN poll found 78 percent of Republicans believe President Biden did not win the 2020 election. That's almost eight in 10 Republicans.

SWALWELL: But I do think the base is shrinking, Jim. And when you look at victories we had in Georgia and Arizona in 2020, you know, those were Republican states, and voters are running away from a radical party that continues to put out two deadly lies, the lie that the election was stolen where lives have been lost, violence has been committed because of that lie, and the lie about vaccines, where thousands of people have died since the vaccine was made available, because of radical Republican lies.

[15:20:06]

$4.6 trillion has been spent federally to treat COVID and $20 billion, a Kaiser Family Foundation estimate, has been spent to treat the unvaccinated. So these twin deadly lies put out by radical Republicans I believe will actually lead to fewer Republicans who will identify with their party.

ACOSTA: And I want to get your reaction to something that caught my eye. Yesterday Alabama Secretary of State John Merrill tweeted the following, and perhaps you saw this. It says, "Today our team met with Mike Lindell of MyPillow. We discussed the 2020 election. He was very impressed by our efforts and said that Alabama had the best election system and the safest procedures he had seen in America. We look forward to our next meeting," hashtag "easy to vote, hard to cheat."

This is the secretary of state. What's going on here? When election officials, prominent state officials feel it's necessary to meet with Mike Lindell, the MyPillow guy.

SWALWELL: Yes. Well, I will not rest more comfortably tonight knowing that, not on his pillow, not on any pillow, Jim. It's concerning because it demonstrates that Republicans are now willing to resort to two things to win elections. Either, you know, putting together a system where you disenfranchise voters and make it easy to overturn the result if you don't like it, or again, to threaten violence, as more and more Republicans continue to do.

The best thing we can do to counter this of course is to break the filibuster in the Senate, pass the For the People Act, allow the Department of Justice to look at any changes that states like Georgia and Arizona are making to make sure that every American who's qualified and able has access to the ballot box. Until we do that, Jim, our democracy will remain on life support.

ACOSTA: And before we go, I want to ask you about this U.S. drone strike that killed 10 innocent people in Kabul. The CIA warning that came seconds too late, saying civilians were present. Have you been briefed on any of this? Is the intelligence community going to get involved to get some answers on this? What you can tell us?

SWALWELL: It certainly seems like an issue the intelligence community would be briefed on. I have not been briefed on it yet and I first just want to, you know, express my sympathy and condolences to the family and seven children who lost their lives. I mean this is just, you know, so awful and the worst nightmare for anyone, and I think we owe it to that family and that community, as a country to, you know, financially do everything we can to give them some measure of justice.

And I will make that recommendation. And then for any future civilians who could be in harm's way, to go back and review the process that led to a strike like this taking place. But Jim, again, I'm just thinking of the Afghan people representing the largest Afghan-American community in the country and so much that they've been through, and I just want to take a step back and say a Montana congressman tweeted yesterday that 75 Afghan refugees are headed to Montana and he's going to do everything he can to block that.

Well, Jim, we have to show as much compassion to these folks who served shoulder to shoulder with us on the battlefield, as they come to America, and show them that we truly are a compassionate and open- armed people. ACOSTA: That's right. That's what we do in this country, we welcome

refugees, we welcome people in need, that's always been the American way.

All right, Congressman Eric Swalwell, thanks so much for your time. Appreciate it.

SWALWELL: My pleasure. Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: Coming up, the FDA Advisory Board votes against recommending booster shots for most Americans, but says yes to a smaller group. Who that includes is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:28:07]

ACOSTA: An important new information on those highly-anticipated COVID booster shots. A key FDA panel voted Friday to recommend an additional Pfizer dose for those who are 65 and up, or high risk. But the panel voted against recommending Pfizer boosters for those ages 16 and up, who are already vaccinated.

Let's bring in Dr. William Schaffner. He's a professor in infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University School of Medicine.

Dr. Schaffner, great to see you. Lots of confusion out there. People aren't fully aware of what the deal is. Help us out. How big of a deal is this approval for that select portion of the population? And we have to emphasize 65 and up. This doesn't mean run out to your pharmacy right now for your third booster shot.

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, DIVISION OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE: No. Well, you're very correct, Jim. I think the committee took a rifle rather than a shotgun approach. They looked at the folks who first of all had been vaccinated first, and so they had the longest duration under the vaccine, and so the extent of the vaccine, the protection of the vaccine might be waning, and then they looked at people who might get most severe disease.

Those people aged 65 and older, and those younger than age 65 with underlying illnesses. Along with health care workers and teachers. So that's the group they've targeted. And Wednesday and Thursday, when the CDC's committee is going to be, I think they're on pretty much the same wave length, so the recommendations will be for that limited group, these younger folks who haven't been recommended yet, the vaccine is still actually keeping them out of the house -- out of the hospital, I should say, as well as protecting them from severe disease.

ACOSTA: It's allowing them to go out of the house, which is a good thing, right?

SCHAFFNER: Yes. Yes. Thank you.

[15:30:00] ACOSTA: But let me ask you this, because this is, I think, what every like rational person out there who has had the vaccine and is so eager to get the booster shot, because they're so worried about the unvaccinated and so on, this is what they're thinking.

What is the main issue for what is the main issue for everybody else who isn't immunocompromised or over the age of 65? Are they, should they be concerned if they're not protected?

I know you were just saying, a few moments ago, these vaccines are going to keep them out of the hospital.

Is it that it may not be necessary? Or is it that it may be harmful if they go out there, go rogue, and go get that third booster on their own, without telling anybody? Wink, wink, nod, nod, to the guy at CVS, kind of thing.

SCHAFFNER: Well, there are two issues. There's the effectiveness and the harm.

You don't have to worry about the harm. The side effects associated with this third dose, the booster dose, are comparable to the first and the second. They're not needed is the main issue.

And folks are saying on the committee, look, we give medicines, we give vaccines to populations where there's a need. But not to people who don't need it at least not yet.

So let's focus our attention on getting boosters to the people who need it. And furthermore, let's keep attention on people who haven't gotten their first dose yet.

ACOSTA: Right.

SCHAFFNER: That's where the big problem is.

ACOSTA: That is it. That's the whole ball game.

Let me ask you this. A new CDC study weighed all three authorized vaccines in the U.S. and found the Moderna vaccine slightly more effective at keeping people out of the hospital.

Moderna came in at 93 percent effective. Pfizer was 88 percent. The single-dose Johnson & Johnson was 71 percent.

Put that into perspective for us. That's still higher than the efficacy rates compared to other vaccines, right? That is still good news.

SCHAFFNER: They are all really good news. They are all in the very high ballpark.

And the important thing about J&J is there's more data coming in/ I think J&J will submit these data to the Food and Drug Administration, suggesting that a second dose of J&J will boost their protection up also. So we need to wait for that. But those kinds of studies are in the

works, patience, more information coming.

ACOSTA: Patience is the key.

And that leads me to the next question. We continue to see some troubling behavior. And I want to ask you about this because this was very disturbing. Dr. Schaffner, I'm sure you saw this.

Three women from Texas were arrested in New York this week for assaulting a restaurant employee, who just asked them to show their proof of vaccinations, which is required, by the way, for indoor dining in Manhattan.

We're showing some of the video right now.

What is your reaction to that? I mean, I think some people might need a decency or kindness vaccine in addition to that.

(LAUGHTER)

ACOSTA: And if we could manufacture that, that would solve a lot of the problems in this world.

But, my goodness, what is going on? How is that happening?

SCHAFFNER: That was a defect in parenting of those ladies when they were younger.

ACOSTA: Yes.

SCHAFFNER: I mean, that's totally inappropriate behavior. Let's all take a deep breath here. Listen to what the recommendations from public health are.

And in communities such as Manhattan, you're going to have to show proof of vaccination. That's going to spread throughout the country.

You want to go to a Bruce Springsteen concert, you have to show proof of vaccination, or recent negative test. That's going to happen more and more.

I hope it will encourage people to be vaccinated. You know, we can curtail the spread of this virus if all of the unvaccinated people would just jump aboard and get their vaccine.

ACOSTA: Yes. And they might get a decent table at a restaurant on top of that --

(LAUGHTER)

ACOSTA: -- with everything else.

All right, Dr. William Schaffner, thank you so much for your time. We appreciate it.

SCHAFFNER: Thanks, Jim.

ACOSTA: All right, and a quick programming note. Join us as Dr. Sanjay Gupta talks to scientists about the origin of COVID-19. It airs tomorrow night at 8:00.

[15:34:01]

Coming up, France recalling the ambassador to the U.S., believed to be the first in modern times. What went wrong between these two allies? That story ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ACOSTA: Updating you on our breaking news. We have learned the CIA warned that civilians were present seconds before a U.S. missile killed 10 innocent people in Kabul, including seven children.

Officials describing the strike as a tragic mistake, saying the intelligence had indicated ISIS-K would be using a white Toyota Corolla in an imminent attack on the airport, where just days earlier, a suicide bomber had killed 13 U.S. servicemembers.

But the car they eventually targeted had no connection to ISIS-K, though. Instead, it belonged to an aid worker who was bringing containers of water home for his family.

Joining me now to talk about this, CNN military analyst, Colonel Cedric Leighton, and CNN global affairs analyst, Kimberly Dozier.

My first question is for you, Colonel Leighton.

If intelligence officials monitored this target for hours, how could a mistake like this happen? Is this just what happens with these types of strikes?

COL. CEDRIC LEIGHTON, CNN MILITARY ANALYST: Well, Jim, it certainly can happen.

But here's the problem. When General McKenzie talked about this, he said they monitored the target for eight hours. Eight hours is not long enough to establish a pattern of life.

Unless you've done some kinds of things beforehand, so that you know what the intelligence picture is like. You know who is who. You know exactly what you're targeting.

In this case, they did not know exactly what they were targeting.

ACOSTA: And, Kim, what does this say that we have a strike on civilians as the U.S. is closing this involvement in Afghanistan?

[15:40:06]

KIMBERLY DOZIER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well --

ACOSTA: It's such an awful way for this to end. DOZIER: -- it raises questions about this over-the-horizon

counterterrorism strategy and the security and safety of Americans and possible targets for future terrorist attacks.

But the other gut punch is it was one last insult to Afghans who felt like the U.S. was leaving them behind after many Afghans had risked their lives by believing in this largely American-sponsored experiment in democracy.

So the fact that they are all now waking up and hearing, yes, it was an American mistake. And it was actually accidentally aimed at someone who was trying to come to the United States. It's just this ultimate cruel twist of the knife.

I'm talking to Afghans now who they feel fury towards the United States. And I don't know how you make that go away.

ACOSTA: Colonel, that has been one of the lessons that I thought we were supposed to learn long ago with these types of strikes. They can create terrorists.

LEIGHTON: Absolutely.

ACOSTA: They can create extremists because we hit the wrong target. You bomb civilians, and the survivors become furious, as Kim was saying, with the United States.

This over-the-horizon capability, is this going to be enough? Is it precise enough?

And what happened to the lessons that were supposed to be learned about all of these folks talking with one another, intelligence, defense, the administration, and so on? That seems to have failed here.

LEIGHTON: Well, and that's, I think, Jim, part of the real problem here. It does require the different agencies to talk to each other. It does require the intelligence world and the operational world to be in sync, to be in harmony, when they do something like this.

And whenever you have personnel turnover, and whenever you have the kinds of things that, you know, happen in a very quick-paced, fast- paced environment, mistakes can be made. But you have to work together to minimize those mistakes.

One of the reasons that I think the operations, from the air perspective, at the very beginning of Operation Iraqi Freedom were very successful was the fact that we actually talked together.

I worked directly with CIA folks and with other intelligence agencies in my role during that particular conflict.

And we were able to do things very carefully because we knew each other. We understood how we worked. And we understood the, in essence, the operational imperatives of each of these organizations. DOZIER: And let's not forget that they would have just been working

together like that. But this was a time of great turnover on the ground in Afghanistan.

So who was talking to whom? Normally, the people who might help deconflict in a situation like this might have been busy working on evacuations instead.

(CROSSTALK)

ACOSTA: Because there was a huge chaotic scene.

DOZIER: Exactly.

And don't forget how closely we worked with the Afghan intelligence service. And now, we didn't have them to help provide on-the-ground ground truth, of, is this a real target, which we would have had before.

ACOSTA: And just, your quick assessment of this situation unfolding, this diplomatic rift that's unfolding between the U.S. and France.

France recalling its ambassador, likely the first time in modern history, from what we understand, over this security agreement between the U.S., the U.K. and Australia.

We understand that the French ambassador went to the White House, met with the national security adviser, Jake Sullivan, yesterday on the way out of the country. This is bad.

DOZIER: It was all done, according to the French, without any of their knowledge.

It not only means the loss of a very lucrative contract that Lockheed Martin was part of, that the French were providing these subs to Australia.

But it also means that, you know, France was trying to work with the U.S. and its key partner, Australia, in the Indo-Pacific countering China security.

And this throws all of that into disarray, right ahead of French elections next year. So it's a gut punch to Emmanuel Macron personally.

But also it's really hurting their pride when they had tried to build security partnerships, especially with the incoming Biden administration that said that would be its hallmark, rebuilding things that were torn apart during the Trump years.

ACOSTA: Right.

Colonel, that's what the French are saying, they feel they've been treated as if Donald Trump were still the president.

LEIGHTON: Yes. ACOSTA: And we have video -- we can show it -- of Biden and Macron,

you know, together arm in arm. I mean, they were grilling out earlier. This is back in June.

LEIGHTON: Exactly.

ACOSTA: Not grilling out anymore.

LEIGHTON: Apparently not. And that is really unfortunate, because the French can be really good military partners.

I've worked with French forces throughout my military career, and you know, obviously spent a lot of time in France. They have a very good military, a very capable force, a very capable intelligence service. They are valid partners to work with.

[15:45:05]

And to turn them aside is a very big mistake, especially when we're trying to come together against an adversary like China.

ACOSTA: France has been such an important ally and partner for so many years.

LEIGHTON: That's right.

ACOSTA: This is going to take some defense money.

All right, Kim, Colonel, thank you so much. We appreciate it.

Coming up, an update on the progress inside Notre Dame two years after a devastating fire.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:50:04]

ACOSTA: If you thought last year's Emmys looked a little bit too much like a giant Zoom call, get ready. TV's biggest night is about to return with a live audience and a big opening number.

CNN's Stephanie Elam has a preview.

STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Jim, Cedric The Entertainer points out that everybody was watching television during the pandemic and so television, he says, was kicking butt. And he plans to do no less as the host of the Emmy awards.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELAM (voice-over): From space suits to hazmat suits and what was mostly a really big virtual meeting, this year's Emmys are shedding some of last year's COVID constraints and getting back to a live audience.

MATTHEW BELLONI, FOUNDING PARTNER, PUCK NEWS: People don't want to see award shows on Zoom. They just don't. It takes you away from the experience. They need to see those actors up close. They need to feel like they're at an event with them.

ELAM: Cedric The Entertainer hosts, telling "People" magazine he plans a return of the big opening number.

CEDRIC THE ENTERTAINER, EMMY HOST: We're excited that we're watching a few of these other award shows this weekend, that we're going to elevate the game a little bit.

ELAM: The ceremony will take place inside a tent outside an L.A. theater. Attendees must be fully vaccinated and provide proof they are COVID negative.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Could you help me with the door?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: It's air drying.

ELAM: What could be similar to last year? A dominant comedy.

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: How many countries in the country?

UNIDENTIFIED ACTOR: Four.

ELAM: Ted Lasso has all of the momentum.

BELLONI: Jason Sudeikis is a star. People know. And it got 20 nominations.

However, there is a dark horse. I would you say it is "Hacks," which is a smaller show on HBO Max. And it is a very insidery Hollywood show that people who vote for these types of awards may gravitate towards.

ELAM: On the drama side, "The Crown" could take the Emmy.

BELLONI: "The Crown" is one of the great achievements of television of all time and it has never won the series Emmy.

ELAM: Real-life drama could factor into the ceremony with the death of Michael K. Williams, who became a star in "The Wire."

This year, he's nominated for another nuanced performance, though Emmy votes were cast before his death.

BELLONI: And he wasn't even nominated for playing one of the most iconic characters of all time. He's been a great character actor for two decades now.

And the fact that he's never won an Emmy is kind of crazy. So people thought he might win for "Love Craft Country" this year.

ELAM: The Emmys move to CBS, where a football lead-in could lift it above last year's record-low ratings.

(END VIDEOTAPE) ELAM: Jim, this could be the first big test for any of the Hollywood award shows, to see if they can get viewers to tune back in, even though people aren't stuck at home on their couches anymore -- Jim?

ACOSTA: Thanks, Stephanie.

Aretha Franklin gets some well-deserved R-E-S-P-E-C-T. "Rolling Stone" naming her hit the greatest song of all time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

(SINGING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ACOSTA: The list of top-500 songs was created by polling more than 250 artists, songwriters and industry figures.

Rounding out the top five, "Fight the Power" by Public Enemy, "A Change is Going to Come" by Sam Cooke, "Rolling Stone" by Bob Dylan, and "Smells Like Teen Spirit" by Nirvana.

Wow, OK. Something from my generation, too. That's good to know.

Two years -- in the meantime, two years after a fire destroyed the historic Notre Dame Cathedral in Paris, it's now set to reopen to the public in 2024.

Officials say the cathedral has been entirely secured and restoration works are set to begin in the coming months.

In 2019, a fire destroyed large parts of the 850-year church, including Notre Dame's iconic spire.

French President Emmanuel Macron promised that the work on the cathedral would be completed in five years. We wish them the best on that endeavor.

In the meantime, the United States has the highest incarceration rate in the world. And when offenders are released, they face challenges trying to earn a livable wage.

In their first year home, 80 percent earn less than $15,000 annually. And almost half of federal offenders are re-arrested.

"CNN Hero," Hector Guadalupe," beat those odds.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HECTOR GUADALUPE, CNN HERO: After surviving prison, you come home thinking you are able to start over. You want to be a part of the society. But there's so many layers of discrimination.

Boxes. You have to get through, to just get an opportunity. Society thinks, oh, you should just go get a job, and it's not that easy.

Once you have a record, nothing is set up for them to win.

Good. Right back under.

At the Second You Foundation, we give formerly incarcerated men and women national certifications in job placements. And we help at health clubs and gyms throughout New York City.

You have to be thinking outside the box. You can't give someone a mop and say this is your future, take minimum wage and deal with it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There you go. You've got it.

GUADALUPE: When you provide people with livable wages, they are able to be productive members of society.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes. That's it.

(CROSSTALK)

GUADALUPE: And that's why we are at Second You. We want to give you your second chance at life.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[15:55:03]

ACOSTA: And get the whole story about Hector's program and get involved at CNN heroes.com.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:00:06]

ACOSTA: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Jim Acosta in Washington.