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Drone Kills Civilians, Not ISIS; Secondary Education Resuming without Afghan Girls; AUKUS Fallout; Anti-Lockdown Protesters in Melbourne Clash with Police; FDA Panel's Booster Shot Plan Awaiting Final Review; Chinese Migrant Workers in Myanmar Trying Desperately to Return Home; All-Tourist Space Flight Ends Successfully; Right-Wing Capitol Protest Mostly Peaceful; The 73rd Primetime Emmy Awards Returns to TV. Aired 2-3a ET

Aired September 19, 2021 - 02:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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ROBYN CURNOW, CNN ANCHOR (voice-over): Hi, welcome to CNN NEWSROOM. Thanks for joining me. I'm Robyn Curnow live in Atlanta.

Coming up, a CIA warning that didn't arrive in time. Now a family in Kabul mourns innocent lives lost in a U.S. drone strike.

Desperation under the bridge: thousands of Haitians wait at the Texas border as Homeland Security announces it has a plan to deal with the problem.

Plus splashdown: the first-ever all-civilian space flight back on Earth after three days in orbit.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Live from CNN Center, this is CNN NEWSROOM with Robyn Curnow.

CURNOW: Thank you so much for joining me this hour. Great to have you along.

And we actually begin the show in Afghanistan and a chilly warning that came from the CIA and it came too late to stop a U.S. airstrike that killed 10 Afghan civilians last month. According to three sources, the intelligence agency warned there were likely civilians in the area and possibly children just seconds before the missile found its target.

The military hit the Toyota following a suicide bombing that killed 13 U.S. troops and scores of Afghans racing to evacuate at the Kabul airport.

But the Pentagon now admits no one in the car was linked to ISIS-K, calling the airstrike a mistake. Seven of those killed in the attack were children. Nic Robertson has been speaking to some of the relatives, who lost siblings, sons and daughters in the strike. He has this look at their heartache from Kabul.

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NIC ROBERTSON, CNN INTERNATIONAL DIPLOMATIC EDITOR: It's a lot of children.

This is the blood of the children?

AMAL AHMADI, ZAMARAI'S BROTHER: Yes. Yes.

ROBERTSON (voice-over): Amal Ahmadi shows me his family's shattered house.

(on camera): It's heartbreaking to see this now.

AHMADI: Yes.

ROBERTSON: And to know they say it was just a mistake.

AHMADI: Yes, yes, that's a big mistake. You know about it, yes.

ROBERTSON (voice-over): No one has had the heart to clean it up since the drone strike three weeks ago.

AHMADI: They are all of them. Like my cute daughter that I can't forget her. She was so lively for me that I.

ROBERTSON: The Pentagon late admission, that his brother, Zamarai, was not an ISIS terrorist, something positive.

AHMADI: The USA proved that they are targeting innocent people, because of that I am so happy about in.

ROBERTSON: But he still has questions. Five children he says were inside the car when it was hit.

AHMADI: The USA's know that inside the car was children. Why they targeted an innocent person? Why they target a civilian person.

ROBERTSON: So far, they say they've had no calls from U.S. officials. Are hoping for help to rebuild, even relocate to America.

(on camera): Can you forgive them?

AHMADI: Maybe. But how should I do? You know that I lost that my family. That who return them back perhaps.

ROBERTSON: That's impossible.

AHMADI: It's impossible. No one is able to return them back.

ROBERTSON (voice-over): To the world, this is a drone strike gone wrong. For the family, it's an irreplaceable loss.

Another brother, Romal, shows me the family graves, scattered in the unforgiving rocky ground of a dusty Kabul cemetery. His own three children, daughter Farzad, 9; sons Faisal, 15, and Zamir, 19, all killed in the strike, buried here, too.

(on camera): What do you want for the person responsible?

AHMADI: Just give me --

ROBERTSON (voice-over): His answer, justice. The drone operators should go to court.

For now, prayers and the acknowledgement of their family's innocence, their only solace -- Nic Robertson, CNN, Kabul, Afghanistan.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CURNOW: Thanks, Nic, for that piece.

Now the Taliban is sticking to their line that girls will be allowed to go to school this time around. Some girls in Kabul headed back to primary schools on Saturday, as the Taliban ordered schools to resume. But secondary schools are reopening their doors only to boys.

So far there is no mention of when girls of that age will be allowed to return to the classroom. Nic Robertson pressed a Taliban spokesperson to explain why.

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ZABIULLAH MUJAHID, TALIBAN SPOKESPERSON (through translator): We are in the process of laying the groundwork, since girls, from grade 6, until 12, need secure transportation.

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MUJAHID (through translator): And, also, there are certain rules for their class and lessons, that must be observed so that they could be safe. We are working on this and the process would get completed and they will be allowed.

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CURNOW: Sam Kiley has reported from Afghanistan during the U.S. withdrawal. For the latest, he joins me now from Abu Dhabi.

What do you make of those excuses for not allowing girls into school?

It seems like, every day, there is a new roadblock or new pushback against women's rights and girls' rights.

SAM KILEY, CNN SENIOR INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Robyn, I think at the moment, the Taliban have to be taken at the face value; that is the government spokesman speaking to Nic and committing himself once again.

And this has been a Taliban position since the first couple of weeks, when they were (INAUDIBLE) during the evacuation. They continued to insist that women would be and girls would be educated from first grade right through to the end of high school.

And indeed it is the case that girls are being educated. Young women are being educated in universities, albeit in rather weird, separate situations, in which curtains and so on have been put down through the middle of the room.

I think part of what is troubling in terms of the separation of men and women, which is males and females, for a reason for the delay in a return of girls to school is that they're already separated in schools. There are schools, for example, in Taliban strongholds that have been open in the past.

But the girls and boys have been educated separately. So the structures, the rules, if you like, are already there.

So the question is why are they not being able to return to school along with the boys?

And these structures being imposed, if that's the way that the Taliban insists on going, Robyn.

CURNOW: You make an excellent point there. And also, Sam, I want to talk about Pakistan. Clearly a lot has been said about just what role Pakistan has with Afghanistan and, in particular, the Taliban.

We're hearing from the Pakistan prime minister, Imran Khan, saying that he has initiated dialogue with the Taliban and is looking for an inclusive government. Tell us more about this.

And is that wishful thinking, even from the Pakistanis?

KILEY: Well, I think it's very, very important restatement of the Pakistani position, Robyn, which has been they wanted to see an inclusive government. But the response to the very hardline exclusive government, caretaker government, established by the Taliban about two weeks ago now, was pretty muted.

This, though, this is a statement following a visit to Tajikistan, in particular, has Imran Khan saying he is going to initiate a dialogue so that Tajiks, Uzbeks and Hazara, the country's three major minorities that have been excluded entirely from the new Taliban dispensation, in terms of the government, can be included at a later day.

And particularly important references the Tajiks, a very, very important visit to Tajikistan, because there is a very significant Tajik community dominant in the Panjshir Valley. They were the last holdout against Taliban rule alongside remnants of the former Afghan national army.

And they are potentially, in the future, a source of instability. Indeed, all of these ethnic groups, if they are not incorporated, almost inevitably will be a destabilizing factor on a new Taliban government. And an unstable Afghanistan is something that both Tajikistan and Pakistan and, indeed, Uzbekistan can very, very much ill afford -- Robyn. CURNOW: Thanks for that. Good to see you there, Sam. I appreciate it.

Sam Kiley there.

So the language out of Paris right now is the harshest yet over the new security deal Australia struck with the U.S. and Britain. Under the agreement, Australia will develop nuclear powered submarines with American and British technologies.

That deal dissolved years of partnership between Australia and France on a fleet of diesel electric subs. Paris is so furious over losing the $65 billion contract that it's recalled its ambassadors to Canberra and Washington. On Saturday, the foreign minister didn't hide his contempt. Take a listen.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): There has been lying, duplicity, a major breach of trust and contempt. This will not do. Things are not going well between us. They aren't going well at all. It means there is a crisis.

And at that point, first of all, there is a symbolic aspect. We are recalling our ambassadors, to try to understand. Too, at the same, time show or former partner countries that we are very dissatisfied, that there is, really, a serious crisis between us.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): It's also when they come away to reevaluate our position, to defend our interests, both in Australia and in the United States.

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CURNOW: And healing the rift with France will likely be on the agenda this week, when the U.S. President meets with the British prime minister.

And U.S. immigration officials are changing strategy to deal with a migrant crisis in a town in Texas. Some 15,000 migrants are crammed under a bridge in Del Rio, just over the border from Mexico. Some of them stay there for days while waiting to be processed by immigration officials.

But as Rosa Flores reports, more help is now on the way in and deportation flights will go out.

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ROSA FLORES, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Resources from the United States of America and also from the state of Texas are descending here in Del Rio, Texas, as officials try to expedite the processing of thousands of migrants, who are practically living under a bridge.

Now the Department of Homeland Security, which is part of the federal government of the United States, announcing their new strategy on Saturday, saying that it will include things like a surge of agents and officers to make sure that there are plenty of personnel on the ground.

They're expecting about 400 officers to arrive here in Del Rio, Texas. They're also upping the humanitarian action, closing the point of entry here in Del Rio and then also increasing the capacity of the removal and expulsion flights from the United States to Haiti.

Look, local officials here are very concerned about one thing and that is the public health issues, the potential public health issues that could arise, because there are so many people living in close quarters, practically living under a bridge.

Now I can't go beyond the fence, the border fence that you see behind me. We're not allowed to. So I can't take our cameras there.

What I can show you is this, what we can see beyond these gates. Take a look at this video. You'll see that there are federal Border Patrol agents, rendering medical attention to a woman in the back of a pickup truck.

Now I was close enough to hear what these agents were telling this woman. They were telling her, (Speaking Spanish), meaning "Stay with me, stay with me."

I asked a local mayor if the Department of Homeland Security, the federal agency gave them any guidance, told them if there was a timeline that they were going to have for him, for when all of these migrants were going to be processed. And the mayor says no -- Rosa Flores, CNN, Del Rio, Texas.

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CURNOW: Now this is by no means the first time a wave of migrants has made across the border. A "Washington Post" correspondent told us earlier why this time is different. Take a listen.

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ARELIS HERNANDEZ, TEXAS CORRESPONDENT, "THE WASHINGTON POST": This wasn't a caravan like the videos you saw maybe from two summers ago. This was different groups of people, who decided that this was the moment, this was their chance to travel north, whether they had been in South America for a long time or had recently arrived in Central America or some other entry point.

And they came by bus. It just happened to converge on Ciudad Acuna, which is across the river from here in Del Rio, and came in at the same time. And it's been steadily building out here.

Del Rio is one of these places that is a preferred crossing spot for people who are coming from South America generally. And so, through whatever networks, they all just happened to come here at the same time.

They have been in touch with their families here in the United States, other Haitians who have been, you know, making it through these particular crossing points in months earlier.

And so I think, in talking to some of the Haitian migrants, their expectation was that they would surrender to Border Patrol, that they would be placed in a process, given a court date and that they could be on their way, which has been happening quite a bit in recent months.

The number of families that actually get expelled has been dropping precipitously for months.

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CURNOW: And as we mentioned, U.S. intends to ramp up deportation flights in the coming days. But some Democrats are urging President Joe Biden to actually pause those flights because of the political crisis in Haiti and the earthquake that hit back in January. We'll continue to monitor that story here at CNN.

And still ahead, a panel of FDA advisers has voted against COVID boosters for most Americans. But that is not the end of the debate. We'll tell you who still needs to weigh in.

Plus why China is accused of forcing a large number of Burmese migrants to leave the country and return to war-torn Myanmar. Our exclusive report is next.

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CURNOW (voice-over): You're watching police as they used pepper spray on protesters at anti lockdown rally in Northern Australia on Saturday. Police say 235 people were arrested; 10 police officers were injured during the protest.

Frustrations are rising after weeks and weeks of tough restrictions and lockdowns across the state of Victoria, where Melbourne is the capital. Victorian premier Daniel Andrews says restrictions will ease once 70 percent of eligible residents receive their first COVID 19 shots. Right now about 56 percent have received their first dose.

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CURNOW: The rate of COVID vaccinations in the U.S. remains stubbornly low even as the number of new cases and deaths continues to rise. Just under 55 percent of the U.S. population is fully vaccinated, still well short of the 70 percent to 85 percent threshold needed for herd immunity.

Meanwhile, booster shots will likely soon be available for older and high risk Americans, after Friday's recommendation from an FDA advisory committee. But experts say the key to ending the pandemic in the U.S. is not the third shot; it's getting unvaccinated Americans to roll up their sleeves for the first one.

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CURNOW: Now the FDA's panel recommendations isn't the final say on boosters for Americans. The plan must be reviewed by the FDA commissioner and the CDC before a final decision.

Well, earlier CNN spoke with former Biden White House senior adviser for COVID response, Andy Slavitt, about this debate. And Slavitt said it should boost Americans' confidence in the government's final decision.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ANDY SLAVITT, FORMER SENIOR ADVISER, WHITE HOUSE COVID-19 RESPONSE TEAM: I think that the public is really eager to know the answer and I think going through processes like this, where you watch scientists debate.

And if you watched that debate on Friday, I apologize on behalf of the time you lost listening to people with very little data, very little opinion, all expressing their points of view.

Yet if you step back and think about it, this is the process we want. I'd take our process over something that's in the dark, where opposing views get oppressed. And so it's messy. It's ugly. But that's because there is scientific uncertainty.

When there is scientific uncertainty, we want to hear from all sides. At the end of the day, it seems pretty obvious that, at least if you're in the older category or you're at risk, you should be getting a booster.

It's -- it seems less obvious but it's potentially the case that, if you're younger, you should be getting the booster. That's what the debate is about. I think we'll see a conclusion some time between now and probably Friday of the coming week.

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CURNOW: Well, China is accused of forcing a large number of Burmese migrants to leave the country as part of its plan to control the COVID outbreak. Many of these migrants have worked in China for years and fear returning to Myanmar, which faces a worsening COVID crisis and a civil war.

Now the Chinese foreign ministry denies it's forcing migrants away. Paula Hancocks has our exclusive report -- Paula.

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PAULA HANCOCKS, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Heading home to Myanmar, these migrants carry all the belongings they can to the Chinese border city of Ruili. For many, it is not by choice.

They are being sent home due to China's fears of COVID-19. Chinese officials are seen speaking to the local community by loudspeaker. The message is clear.

"It's a city wide policy," he says to persuade the Burmese to go home because, of the pressing epidemic situation.

In other communities, the order is far more harsh. Here, early on, some Burmese migrants forced to leave in the middle of the night.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (through translator): They came to our place at night and asked us to sign the exit document, no matter we want to sign it or not. They forced us to sign and sent us back.

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HANCOCKS (voice-over): She doesn't want to show her face because of fear of Chinese government retribution. She works in a Chinese furniture factory. She told CNN that all the Burmese in her village were forced to leave in early August. They were bused to the border gate and from there they were told to walk back to Myanmar.

She lays out all her Chinese permits that she says proves her legal status in China. Now back home in Myanmar, she's without a job or a hope.

Since the Myanmar military seized power in February this year, more than 1,000 people have been killed by the junta, according to an advocacy group. NGOs and the U.N. said the actual number is likely far higher.

For decades, Burmese migrants have been crossing over to China, seeking job opportunities in the border city of Ruili. They've been blamed for the city's several COVID outbreaks this year, putting pressure Chinese overall epidemic control.

This Burmese girl, Su Su, and her friends have packed up their bags.

"We are willing to go back to Myanmar," she tells CNN. "We've been out of jobs for 4-5 months because of the lockdowns. We don't even have the money to pay the electricity."

But many others do not want to leave. This Burmese man also showed CNN his full set of Chinese legal permits. He's been working for years in China as a truck driver. He had hoped to earn enough money so he could marry his girlfriend.

But he and other Burmese migrants were suddenly evicted from their rental home, the door sealed, forcing them to leave.

The Chinese foreign ministry denies deporting the Burmese migrants. In a faxed reply, it says some Burmese citizens have requested to remove to Myanmar due to job losses. And they are returning to Myanmar voluntarily. The statement contradicts the appeals we are hearing on the ground. UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): I want to request the Chinese government to postpone the plan. We want to stay longer here and don't want to be sent back home.

HANCOCKS (voice-over): It is unclear if any of the people we spoke to have tested positive for COVID-19.

Meanwhile on the other side of the border, Chinese migrant workers are rushing back into China from Myanmar, fleeing war and COVID-19, they find themselves stuck in a long queue outside of the border gate, waiting to be processed.

[02:25:00]

HANCOCKS (voice-over): This person worked as a freelance fighter, hired by a local government militia in northern Myanmar and he didn't want to wait any longer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (through translator): The epidemic control measures were very poor there. The medical facility's standard was poor as well. If I get COVID, I don't think they would be able to save me.

HANCOCKS (voice-over): He says he walked for four days through the jungle before reaching the border and crossing illegally. In order to prevent the virus coming in this way, China has built a long barbed wire fence along its border with Myanmar.

But the fence is not stopping everyone. Some try to illegally cross back into China. Chinese state media reports that many are suspected of internet fraud and gambling operations in Myanmar. A migrant homecoming on both sides of this border, some less welcoming than others -- Paula Hancocks, CNN, Seoul.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CURNOW: And leaders in Ethiopia's Tigray region are applauding an executive order from President Joe Biden, which authorizes sanctions against all warring parties involved in the conflict.

The Biden administration's order following reporting from CNN's Nima Elbagir that found evidence of mass executions, sexual violence and torture in the Tigray region. On Saturday, the leader of the Tigray People's Liberation Front said the government, quote, "particularly grateful for the diverse steps taken by the United States government to address human rights violations"

And it asked the U.S. to play a role in facilitating a ceasefire in the ongoing conflict.

For our international viewers, "INSIDE AFRICA" is next. For those watching here in the U.S. and Canada, I'll be right back with more news.

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CURNOW (voice-over): It was about as bold an adventure as anyone could wish for, literally out of this world. Four regular citizens without formal astronaut training successfully splashed down late on Saturday after 3 days in orbit aboard the privately owned SpaceX Crew Dragon capsule.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is such a great shot.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: How incredible, lots of waves.

CURNOW (voice-over): The crewmembers were jubilant as they stepped back on to solid ground and into the history books. CNN's Kristin Fisher is at Cape Canaveral.

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KRISTIN FISHER, CNN SPACE & DEFENSE CORRESPONDENT: You could hear the sonic boom here at Port Canaveral, as the crew of Inspiration4 made its way through the Earth's atmosphere a SpaceX Crew Dragon capsule before splashing down just off the coast of Florida in the Atlantic Ocean.

It was the culmination of an historic three-day trip to outer space. At times, they flew even higher than the International Space Station. And what made this mission so extraordinary is really just how ordinary the crew was.

This was the first time that there was a mission to orbit with no professional astronauts on board. They spent their time doing scientific experiments and medical experiments. But they also just played the ukulele and took pictures and drew paintings and, of course, looked out at the beautiful views of planet Earth.

After three days of that, they began to reenter the Earth's atmosphere and it's an experience that professional astronauts have described as feeling like you're inside of an animal.

After going through temperatures of 3,500 degrees Fahrenheit, they splashed down. A crew capsule recovery ship plucked the capsule out of the ocean and then those now astronauts were flown back to the Kennedy Space Center on a helicopter, where they could celebrate with their family.

And the capsule, it will be brought back to this port, Port Canaveral, right behind me, very soon. And this really all marks the beginning of a new era of space tourism, the first time that NASA has had no part, essentially, in a mission to orbit, with people on board. That's a first -- At Port Canaveral, Kristin Fisher, CNN.

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CURNOW: Chris Hadfield is a retired Canadian astronaut and former commander of the International Space Station. He joins me now from Toronto.

Great to have you on the show. I do want to get your take on this journey, this mission.

What are your thoughts this hour?

COL. CHRIS HADFIELD, FORMER COMMANDER, INTERNATIONAL SPACE STATION: It was such a delightful relief to see them safely come back down through the atmosphere, to see four parachutes open and to have that beautiful close-up view of them splashing down into the Atlantic.

We haven't landed a spaceship in the Atlantic since Apollo 9, when Rusty Schweiker was flying. So really nice to see. And the crew looking so healthy. I think it's a really lovely, perfect finish to a real demonstration of some amazing new technology.

CURNOW: This is just one trip, one space mission.

But what does it indicate in terms of where space exploration is going?

HADFIELD: When I was born, no one had flown in space. This entire human capability is younger than I am. So it's happening quite quickly. Just in day-to-day life, you sort of take it for granted.

But we have gone from ships that could just barely do it and several of which killed the astronauts on board, where it required the best test pilots in the world just to be able to make these machines work, to now to the point where, the technology is so advanced, there has been so much money put into the development of it, that four people with very little training can have the incredible experience of going around the world nearly 50 times, where the machine took care of all of the complex stuff.

And that is -- that's a fun human event for those four. But I think what it's really demonstrating is the advances in all of the technologies that open space up at a level of cost and safety that we've never seen before for business, for exploration, for humans living on space stations. It's really a clear indicator of how far we've come.

CURNOW: Do you in some way perhaps turn your nose up at the fact that these astronauts, if you even want to call them that, these space tourists have none of the training that men like -- men and women like you had?

[02:35:00] HADFIELD: Not at all. It's sort of the opposite. That's why we worked so hard. I mean, I was a test pilot before I was an astronaut. And friends of mine died as test pilots. But we were doing a very dangerous part of the business so that regular air travel could be safe and simple and reliable.

And it's not like there is a shortage of universe to explore. There is going to be an enormous role for the cutting-edge, top-end professional astronauts, sort of like there are for professional pilots.

But this opens up what we've been trying to do. I've been saying since the beginning, wouldn't it have been great to have a terrific songwriter or a painter or a poet, if Leonard Cohen had flown in space, someone who could then try to describe it in a visceral, human way, that test pilots like me -- we try but it's just not our overlapping skillset. So I'm very supportive and delighted that we're at this level now.

CURNOW: How much responsibility does this crew have?

HADFIELD: I really hope that the four of them now recognize the privilege and the rarity of what they have just experienced and take their responsibility and their public duty of that as seriously as professional astronauts do, to now share the experience, to use it -- it takes a lot of time.

I spoke in a school yesterday, in fact. I've spoken in thousands of schools to really try and take the magic of this new human experience and use it to change the decision-making in inspiring young people around the world.

CURNOW: Going back to your previous point there about space travel, do we want space to be urbanized?

Are there not concerns that it's unregulated and that anyone, you know, in the coming years, can be sending up space tourists?

Is that not a concern?

HADFIELD: Well, of course, it's a concern.

Like any new technology, when we invented gunpowder or steel, everything becomes a double-edged sword, right?

That's why we -- society needs regulation. And that's why the FAA and the United States and other parts of U.S. regulatory government are working really hard to get the rules in there so that it opens up free enterprise. It opens up the human experience. It really opens up the heavens to so many more people.

But at the same time, you have to do things within reason. And that's what we're doing. But imagine if, in 1920, after the effort of the Wright brothers and all the research that happened, if someone had said, well, we don't really want airlines. This should still just be the stuff of barnstormers and daredevils. That would have squandered the whole point of it. It needs to become

part of the richness of the human experience.

But just like aviation, we -- you know, regulation gets trapped in lag sometimes. But it will catch up. And that's what we should do with this.

And it opens up, as you say, potential settlement of the moon, because there is water and power there -- and even further eventually. So this is a stepping stone, a very visible moment of a stepping stone toward a future that we've never been able to do before.

CURNOW: Chris Hadfield, always great to speak to you. Thank you so much.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CURNOW: And still to come here on CNN, hundreds of protesters at the U.S. Capitol rally in support of the pro-Trump rioters, who ambushed the building on January 6th. We have a conversation about this next.

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CURNOW: In Washington, police outnumbered pro-Trump supporters at a rally outside the U.S. Capitol, the same site, of course, as the January 6th insurrection. Now Saturday's protest ended after only a couple of hours and was mostly peaceful.

Capitol Police made only four arrests. There was, though, a massive police presence around the protest area to ensure there would not be repeat of the deadly attack. Marshall Cohen reports.

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MARSHALL COHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: The rally in support of January 6th rioters went off without any major security incidents but it is the latest gambit by right wing groups to twist the narrative about the insurrection. Here is what organizers said was the purpose behind this rally. Take a listen.

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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is about the many people who were there that day, who have not been charged with violence, not been accused of assaulting a police officer or destroying property and the treatment they have received. This is about equal treatment under the law. (END VIDEO CLIP)

COHEN: It sounds like a good idea, right?

Equal justice under the law. But the devil is really in the details.

So first of all, more than 600 people have been charged in the insurrection. The vast majority of them were released. A few dozen are in jail. But most of these people were charged with violent crimes.

Only a handful of nonviolent rioters are still in jail and that's largely because federal judges ruled that they are too dangerous to release.

So when you hear these right wing groups protesting the detention of, quote, "nonviolent rioters," keep in mind that court records indicate that that label only applies to a handful of people, a handful of the more than 600 rioters charged in the January 6th attack.

Also -- and this really is wild -- some of the speakers at the rally specifically praised rioters who are accused of extremely serious and violent offenses.

They gave a shoutout to people who are charged with bringing a gun to the Capitol, assaulting police officers with a large stick and even one who threaten threatened to kill his family members if they turned him into the FBI.

Look, all of these months later, all these months after January 6th, the lies continue. And it's lies like these that fueled the insurrection in the first place.

National security officials have warned that this kind of disinformation is only going to radicalize more Americans and potentially load to future violent attacks -- Marshall Cohen, CNN, Washington.

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CURNOW: Thanks, Marshall.

I want to talk more about all of this. Lawrence Rosenthal in Berkeley, California, joins me. He is the chairman and lead researcher of the Berkeley Center for Right Wing Studies, which he founded back in 2009.

Thanks for joining me, sir. Police and journalists outnumbered the protesters. That's a good thing, right?

LAWRENCE ROSENTHAL, CHAIRMAN AND LEAD RESEARCHER, BERKELEY CENTER FOR RIGHT WING STUDIES: It's an interesting thing. Basically, what this protest was about was to claim that the people in jail were, quote- unquote "political prisoners."

[02:45:00]

ROSENTHAL: And while that has some attraction for Republican politicians and so forth, it's not a very -- not a very strong pull for them to participate in this.

There are other aspects of what we could call the MAGA movement, the make America great again movement, which have a good deal more pull on the Republican Party and members of, for example, the House of Representatives or the Senate, none of whom appeared at the rally today.

CURNOW: But essentially by talking about these people as political prisoners, for example, couching the insurrectionists as sort of being part of some sort of just cause, that does create a narrative of victimhood, which has been quite evocative, at least for many pro- Trump supporters, hasn't it?

ROSENTHAL: Oh, it's definitely evocative for pro-Trump supporters. Their sense of themselves as victims is a broad stroke. This is a movement which understands itself primarily -- or in the first instance -- as victims of what they call replacement.

We are being replaced by other -- others, who are largely immigrants and people of color and things of that nature.

What's interesting, it seems to me, is that the presence of -- in the MAGA movement, which is unique in American politics, national politics, the presence of the most extreme elements of American society -- that is the militias and people like the Proud Boys or the 3 Percenters or the Oath Keepers.

This -- what's going on right now is the attempt of the MAGA movement to really take over the Republican Party. The preceding kind of populist movement to the MAGA movement was the tea party.

CURNOW: Yes.

ROSENTHAL: And to some extent, they were attempt the same thing but they were attempting it by primarying people they found insufficiently conservative.

The MAGA party -- but they did not include in -- the tea party never included the militias. What you have now is an attempt -- and it's a self-conscious attempt. It's sometimes called the precinct strategy, which is to take over the party at its lowest levels.

And then it is very self-consciously engineered by people like Steve Bannon. And this attempt to take over the party is being -- within the Republican Party, you see a lot of capitulation to this.

CURNOW: So that's going to be my next question and my final question as well, because there is so much to talk about.

But how much is the regrouping of Mr. Trump and his large base of supporters, after the election loss, going ahead?

And how much of a mistake is it to underestimate what is happening, based, say, on the size of the turnout that we saw today in D.C.?

There is no connection, is there?

ROSENTHAL: No, no. The size -- this was a sideshow. The Republican Party has -- the jeopardy they face with respect to the extremes and the militias was not represented in what's going on today. So you do get this MAGA movement, using the old tea party technique,

the primarying to get rid of Republicans, Republicans in name only, that they don't like. But there is something more going on.

There is a deeper level going on, which is that the Republican Party, which has long been aware of the question of the changing demographics of the U.S. and that, slowly, it is becoming a majority minority country -- actually not that slowly. But the Republicans have struggled with this question for a very long time.

[02:50:00]

ROSENTHAL: And what we're seeing now is they're essentially giving up on trying to bring in new voters.

And instead turning severely to voter restrictions.

CURNOW: And that is concerning for the whole country and democracy at large. Lawrence Rosenthal in Berkeley, California, thank you for sharing your expertise this hour, appreciate you joining us here on CNN.

ROSENTHAL: My pleasure.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CURNOW: Coming up, television's biggest night is just hours away as the prime time Emmy awards kick off the Hollywood awards season. A preview of what to expect at this year's ceremony -- next.

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CURNOW: The primetime Emmys return Sunday. Unlike last year's Zoom party, this time it's in front of a live audience. Here's Stephanie Elam.

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STEPHANIE ELAM, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Cedric the Entertainer said television kicked butt. From space suits to hazmat suits and what was mostly a really big virtual meeting.

This year's Emmys are shedding some of last year's COVID constraints and getting back to a live audience.

MATTHEW BELLONI, PUCK NEWS FOUNDING PARTNER: People don't want to see award shows on Zoom. They just don't.

[02:55:00]

BELLONI: It takes you away from the experience. They need to see those actors up close. They need to feel like they're at an event with them.

ELAM: Cedric the Entertainer hosts, telling "People" magazine he plans a return of the big opening number.

CEDRIC THE ENTERTAINER, EMMY HOST: We're excited that we're watching a few of these other award shows this weekend, that we're going to elevate the game a little bit.

ELAM (voice-over): The ceremony will take place in a tent outside in a L.A. theater. Attendees must be fully vaccinated and provide proof they are COVID negative.

What could be similar to last year, a dominant comedy.

Ted Lasso has all of the momentum.

BELLONI: Jason Sudeikis is a star. People know. And it got 20 nominations. However, there is a dark horse. I would you say it is "Hacks," which is a smaller show on HBO Max and it is a very insider Hollywood show that people who vote for these type of awards may gravitate towards.

ELAM: On the drama side, "The Crown" could take the Emmy.

BELLONI: "The Crown" is one of the great achievements of television of all time and it has never won the series Emmy.

ELAM: Real life drama could factor into the ceremony with the death of Michael K. Williams, who became a star in "The Wire." this year, he's nominated for another nuanced performance, though Emmy votes were cast before his death.

BELLONI: And he wasn't even nominated for playing one of the most iconic characters of all time. He's been a great character, actor for two decades now. And the fact that he's never won an Emmy is kind of crazy. So people thought he might win for "Lovecraft Country" this year.

ELAM: The Emmys move to CBS, where a football lead-in could lift it above last year's record low ratings. Of course, the Emmys will be the first big test for an awards show, to see if they can get people to tune back in, now that the world has opened back up -- in Hollywood, I'm Stephanie Elam.

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CURNOW: I'm Robyn Curnow, I'll be back in a moment with more CNN.