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House Passes Bill to Avert Shutdown and Suspend Debt Limit; Standoff Between Moderates and Progressives Puts Biden Agenda at Risk; Trump Sues Niece, NYT Reporters for Disclosure of Tax Docs. Aired 10- 10:30a ET

Aired September 22, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:00:002]

ERICA HILL, CNN NEWSROOM: Absolutely. All of this as the Democratic Party's divide is on full display.

So, right now, liberal and moderate Democrats in a fierce standoff. President Biden's $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure plan is in limbo. Hours from now, we know Biden is set to meet with House Speaker Nancy Pelosi and Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer. He's also scheduled to sit down with other key Democrats as this deadline draws closer.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): This is called the legislative process. This is called the Democratic Party. It really is in the mix of all of it, and that's what's pretty exciting because everybody has their say. We come together and we get it done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: CNN Politics Reporter and Editor at Large Chris Cillizza joining us now. So, Chris, I know you just wrote, if this fails, right, if the president fails this week, his entire domestic agenda is essentially done for at least 15 months.

CHRIS CILLIZZA, CNN POLITICS REPORTER: Yes, Erica. The stakes us -- it's hard to overstate the stakes here. So, between the trillion dollar infrastructure, hard infrastructure, as they call it, bill that passed the Senate but not yet the House, and the $3.5 trillion budget bill, you essentially have everything that Joe Biden is trying to do certainly on the domestic front, from immigration to climate to education to coronavirus and dealing with it, all wrapped up in these two bills. I mean, it's not that surprising it's almost $5 trillion in government spending.

But if it doesn't go, if this agreement between Democrats doesn't come together, there's a real issue here because there's no plan B. There's no other bill that they can go to. They could maybe try to break it into parts, but this is the bill. This is the effort. And the issue is that, once we turn the page to 2022, now you start talking about the midterm elections, and even Democrats are more wary of voting for something with this sort of price tag on it the closer you get to the election.

HILL: I want to bring in now Manu Raju as well. So, Manu, as we look at all of this, I mean, this standoff, as Chris said, you really can't overstate the importance of the moment that we're in and what it means for any future potential legislative moves. I wonder too though, with so much finger-pointing, is there a sense that there's an endgame here, right, especially as we heard from Congresswoman Jayapal this morning on New Day, saying it's other people pointing at moderates who are holding all this up, they're the ones that wanted you to end up with nothing, it's not us.

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. Look, at some point, one side or the other is going to have to give on this negotiation. The progressives, they are not going to be able to get what they want. What is their demand is that they want to see larger bill to expand the social safety net pass both chambers of Congress by Monday, the same day that the infrastructure package that's already passed the Senate, that $1.2 trillion plan, is expected to get a vote in the House, that day. That's not going to happen. There's no way possible way for the larger package can pass Congress. They still haven't agreement among themselves about what exactly that looks like.

But perhaps if they give and suggest that maybe they make progress towards finalizing a deal on that larger package, will that be enough for the progressives to say, okay, we can essentially vote for this infrastructure plan on Monday, let it go into law because we have some assurances that the larger plan may eventually become law. That's a question, a question that Democrats, the progressives ultimately are going to have to make a decision on what to do.

And will the moderates, will they agree perhaps if they need more time to have a vote on the infrastructure package, delay it beyond Monday, perhaps do it later next week, have a vote later next week or maybe even a couple of weeks because they need time to get the larger bill done. Will they give? And that is the big question from Pelosi when I asked her last night if she has concerns the progressives may tank this, she said we'll cross those bridges when they come, indicating a lot more negotiation needs to be had between now and then.

SCIUTTO: If you're having trouble following this at home, I'm with you right now because it's confusing, a little frustrating.

Chris, I mean, to be fair, it is rich for Republicans to draw a line in the sand over the debt ceiling. There was no hesitation to raise the debt ceiling. And, by the way, we did the math just a short time ago, that of $29 trillion in debt, $8 trillion comes from the Trump administration, including from the tax cut, and there was no protestation then. But here we are today. And I have to imagine Republicans are salivating at the prospect that this happens in a Democratic administration, that the debt limit is broken. I mean, is there any incentive for them to move here?

CILLIZZA: Not really, not politically, Jim. And it's based on exactly what you just said, a fundamental misunderstanding of the average person of what the debt ceiling and raising it is and does, right? It's -- think of this like your credit card. This is paying for things you already bought. This isn't giving a blank check and saying you can go and buy whatever you want. And so much, as you just noted, so much of what we owe on the national credit card is due to those tax cuts that Donald Trump has.

[10:05:05]

So, the issue is, because people don't understand that, Democrats are worried that they vote solely on party lines to raise the debt ceiling and then Republicans come over to campaign an ad and say, they -- on a purely partisan vote, they offered a blank check on government spending. That's not what's happening here. The problem is the average person doesn't get that.

And so Democrats are having to deal with the reality, the political reality of the situation as opposed to the reality, reality of the situation, which is they didn't run up the vast majority of these debts. Donald Trump's administration did. They are just in a place where our credit is on the line here, and if worse comes to worse, they probably will have to just vote on a partisan vote just to get this through so that we don't default on debt, so that these catastrophes don't happen. But they know that they're going to get hit by Republicans for it. It's the worst kind of politics and policy when they mix up. This is the worst bit of it.

HILL: Yes, it is. I mean, I think these are all the things that the American people will point to, right, and say here is why we're so disenchanted with everything and everyone in Washington.

Manu, the reality too, and Chris laid out some of this, but the reality is if nothing happens here, I mean, this could spark the end for obviously Democrats holding the majority, for the president getting anything done. I mean, are they essentially shooting themselves on the foot here for 2022? And how much of that is really a discussion on Capitol Hill?

RAJU: Yes. Look, there's a real fear about that because there's so much uncertainty about how ultimately all this ends up. One thing that is what that the Democratic leaders have been impressing upon their members behind closed doors yesterday at a caucus meeting, the House majority leader, Steny Hoyer, told his Democratic members, this is essential to their fate come 2022.

And that is similar to an argument that the democrats made to their own members back in 2009, 2010 when they were trying to get the Affordable Care Act done that year. And, of course, what happened in the 2010 midterms is they ended up losing the House that year. And there's also palpable fear that Democrats will lose the House no matter what. And one side of the equation that the Democrats are saying is that this is our opportunity to get major things done. It's going to be much different in the next Congress when potentially, very likely, Republicans are at least in the House majority. So now it's time to get this done.

But is that enough for their members, is that enough for them to get on board especially in such a quick timeframe, potentially as early next week, major questions, it's all uncertain and almost certainly could collapse.

SCIUTTO: For individual members of Congress, could it be in their district, it makes sense to hold the line, regardless of what the fate is for the larger party, the dangers of getting primaried on the Democratic side, just like the Republican side as well.

Chris Cillizza, Manu Raju, thanks very much to both of you. We know you're going to bring us the latest.

Coming up, we're going to speak to a Democratic congressman, Josh Gottheimer, one of the moderates fo the problem solvers caucus. Lots of question for him ahead, including do they have a path forward here within their own party.

HILL: Looking forward to that.

Meantime, former President Trump suing his estranged niece and three reporters from The New York Times over a 2018 story about his taxes and the family's financial history. Trump accusing the journalists working relentlessly to get Mary Trump to turn over confidential documents. Mary Trump identified herself as the source of the leaked documents last year.

Now, the former president is seeking $100 million in damages.

Joining me now to discuss, CNN Contributor Michael D'Antonio, he's also the author of the biography, The Truth about Trump. Good to see you this morning.

Mary Trump did respond to her uncle's lawsuit with a statement saying, quote, I think he's a loser and he's going to throw anything at the wall he can. It's desperation. The walls are closing in. He's throwing anything against the wall he think will stick. As is always the case with Donald, he'll try and change the subject.

As Jim pointed earlier, if this lawsuit had merit, if it were to go through, he would then have to go through discovery. It doesn't seem like something that Donald Trump would want to open himself up to. What's your take on this suit?

MICHAEL D'ANTONIO, CNN CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I'd have to come down on the side of Mary Trump. And, Erica, you left out the modifier that she used when she described what kind of loser he is. And I give you credit for that. That was a good editorial decision.

The former president has used lawsuits to change the subject over and over again. In fact, his very first public act as a young man involved suing the federal government again for the exact same number, $100 million, alleging that they had harmed him.

And back then, it was an attempt to change the subject from the Trump Organization's discrimination against black and Latino applicants for apartments.

[10:10:00]

Today, I think it's an attempt to change the subject away from his own legal peril as he faces both the district attorney in Manhattan and the state attorney general of New York State and, actually, prosecutors in D.C. and Atlanta as well. So, this is a fellow who is in big trouble and he is trying to practice a little misdirection here.

HILL: It's interesting too, there's also this New York Times reporting on a memo which shows that lawyers close to the president, they were really amplifying, as they were amplifying all these false election claims, right, at the time with no evidence, that people in the Trump campaign knew, right? They knew the claims were baseless. It's unclear how much of that information was shared with the former president, with others.

But as we're learning all of this, I think, from many people, in one way, it's not surprising. What do you make of that, though? The knowledge was there with people who could have made it clear to those out there spewing these lies, including the president, and yet here we are?

D'ANTONIO: Well, it's generally been true that when Donald Trump pursues legal cases or makes accusations of wrongdoing, there is ample evidence that he's incorrect and that he's, in fact, lying. And I think in this case, it's clear that his attorneys for the campaign understood that the claims of election fraud were baseless. He, nevertheless, tolerated sending Sidney Powell and Rudy Giuliani and others out into the world with these 60 different lawsuits alleging that there were fraudulent activities.

And, you know, at some point, judges and courts reach a conclusion that someone is being disruptive and frivolous in filing lawsuits and can actually bar plaintiffs from entering the courthouse because of their past record. So I think the question here too is how often do we have to learn that Donald Trump is lying about the facts in legal proceedings and that his lawyers are representing him in bad faith before courts actually decide to just start throwing these claims out? And I think this is what he faces. I would be shocked if this lawsuit against The Times and his niece goes forward.

HILL: I also want to ask you before we let you go, in the new book, Peril, there are details of a conversation between the former president and Hope Hicks talking about the idea that his legacy would be best served if he would accept defeat following 2020. According to the book, Trump said, I don't care about my legacy. My legacy doesn't matter. If I lose, that will be my legacy. My people expect me to fight, and if I don't, I'll lose them. How, well do you think that quote actually sums up the former president based on your experience?

D'ANTONIO: I think it sums him up perfectly. He sees the world in binary terms. You're either a winner or a loser. In the past, he tried to shame and humiliate Jimmy Carter and the first President Bush because they had lost in their bid for re-election. So, now he knows he's in that same small club of one-term presidents and I'm sure it's what motivates him every single day. HILL: Michael D'Antonio, good to have you, thank you.

D'ANTONIO: Good to be with you.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, a CDC advisory committee is meeting right now on whether to approve COVID vaccine booster shots specifically for older Americans while some countries still have yet to receive any COVID vaccine doses.

And then --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He then told us he's been camping for multiple days without his fiancee. He didn't say he had a fiancee, and that she was working on their social media page back at their van.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: Could a chance encounter with Gabby Petito's fiance be a clue in what has now become, police say, a homicide case?

HILL: That and much more ahead. Stay with us as we continue this hour of Newsroom.

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[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: There is a standoff, it's a tough one, between moderate and progressive Democrats, and it's putting President Biden's economic agenda at risk. Soon, President Biden will meet with Democratic leaders and other key members at the White House, this as House Speaker Nancy Pelosi told reporters, quote, we come together and we get it done. So, will Democrats come together?

Joining me now to talk about all this is a key one in these negotiations, Democratic Congressman Josh Gottheimer. He's co-Chair of the problem solver caucus of moderates. Good morning, Congressman. Thanks for taking the time this morning.

REP. JOSH GOTTHEIMER (D-NJ): Thanks, great to be here.

SCIUTTO: So, you have got a lot on your plate next week. First up is a scheduled Monday vote on the infrastructure plan. Congresswoman Jayapal said, when asked if progressives would sink the infrastructure deal to preserve the $3.5 trillion reconciliation budget, she says, try us, in effect. You're confident the vote will take place on Monday though. How?

GOTTHEIMER: I am, and not only it is a critical part of the president's agenda but it's so important that we get this physical infrastructure bill across the finish line. It passed out of the Senate with 19 Republicans and 50 Democrats, including everyone, from Bernie Sanders to Joe Manchin to Mitch McConnell. And now we have got to get it across the finish line. [10:20:01]

I'm from Jersey. We just got crushed with Hurricane Ida. This bill includes important resources to help us fight climate change and obviously help us rebuild our roads, our bridges, the gateway tunnel, broad band, lots of important things, electric vehicles. So, it's essential we get this across the finish line.

And we all voted. Every Democrat in the House voted to bring this to the floor on September 21st, on Monday. But we'll start doing that. We'll debate it. The speaker has said that she'll help get the votes. She committed publicly and I think no one better in getting votes than Speaker Pelosi. So, we'll get this done. I'm really optimistic about that.

SCIUTTO: Well, I appreciate your optimism, but I want to play what Congresswoman Jayapal said on CNN this morning about who's to blame for the current standoff. Have a listen. I want to get your response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (R-WA): Other people are willing to crash the entire Democratic agenda by refusing to come together on the reconciliation bill, which was the promise that was made. So, I want to be very clear. We are the only people in the room right now that have said we want both bills done. (END VIDEO CLIP)

SCIUTTO: She's talking about you there, right, other people. So, my curiously is who blinks here? Are you saying that progressives are going to blink on the overall price tag of the larger budget to get both of these things through?

GOTTHEIMER: She's a good friend, and I'll just tell you right now that many of us are really hard at work at getting that next bill passed, the reconciliation bill that you were just talking about. And we're going to get that across the finish line too.

SCIUTTO: But how? Are you going to give a little, or are they going to give a little? Are both of you going to give a little?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, first, the vote on infrastructure, of course, is out of the Senate, sitting, waiting for a vote. So, we should all get behind that on Monday. And then we're going to, of course, keep working so hard, as we have been, on the reconciliation bill. There're so many things in there that are important, from climate, to reinstating the state and local tax deduction, which matters a lot to Jersey, where I'm from, to get taxes down for our families. There's no reason why this can't get done. And I'm really optimistic that it will. But it makes no sense to actually -- these are two separate bills. They stand on their own. It makes no sense to vote against an infrastructure bill that's got 2 million jobs a year to help hard working men and women on labor.

SCIUTTO: I know. GOTTHEIMER: It makes just no sense to me. So, we're going to get that done. It's a key part of the president's agenda. And I know that every Democrat will ultimately be there at the end of the day.

SCIUTTO: I know. You say it makes no sense but your current -- you're on Capitol Hill. Sense doesn't always drive the conversation there. I'm just asking you how do folks at home believe your optimism when it will require someone to cave or negotiate? Where is that negotiating point? Who gives? Who gives what? Both sides give what?

GOTTHEIMER: I don't think actually anybody -- I don't see it as like a cave. I mean, I just see it as let's vote on this great bipartisan infrastructure bill that every Democrat in the Senate voted for, including Bernie Sanders and Elizabeth Warren, and then let's make sure we keep working on the reconciliation bill, which takes time. There are a lot of things in there that are important.

The speaker has made it clear that she will bring a vote to the House where we can get to 51 in the Senate. We get every Democrat in the Senate and the vice president behind the bill there. That's how we legislate. That's how we get things done. We go back and forth. We debate issues. But in the meantime, on Monday, there's absolutely no reason -- we're facing what we are in the climate, we're facing what we are on our (INAUDIBLE) roads and bridges. New Jersey has got the third worst roads in the country with transit and everything else, no reason to not vote on that.

SCIUTTO: Okay. We'll be watching. Okay. You have this other issue, which is raising the debt limit. Speaker Pelosi says she hopes Republicans don't vote to default. Republicans seem to be digging their hands in. What's plan B?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, we're going to have to get there on that. I think there's going to be lots of back and forth over the next days. But we're not going not default as a country. You've heard over the years Senate leadership, including Mitch McConnell make it clear that he is against the country defaulting. That would obviously be devastating to our financial circumstances as a country and our credit. So we just can't allow that to happen.

This always happens and at the end. And then at the end, we sit down and we figure it out. But both sides are going through the machinations right now and we'll get that done. You saw last night the House, we raised that debt limit and keeping the government funded and operating, what the country wants. So, that's our plan and we'll get it done.

SCIUTTO: Okay. Final question, different topic. As you know, funding for Israel's iron dome, it's a missile defense system that protects it from missiles being launched from the Gaza Strip and elsewhere, it was removed spending measures. You supported including this. I wonder, do you believe this removal of that key funding was a mistake by Democrats?

GOTTHEIMER: Well, actually, they're funding in it for iron dome already because it's a continuing resolution of the government funding. This was for additional resources, which we're going to have to vote on later this week. Many of us obviously expressed deep concern of what happened yesterday and immediately said we need a vote on that this week, and we will.

[10:25:01]

So, there will be supplemental resources for iron dome voted on this week. It will pass. Israel is a critical, historic ally of ours and essential to our national security. So, that also will get done. And I know some people are trying to play games with it on the other side, political games with the U.S./Israel relationship. I think that is appalling. So, we'll get this done.

SCIUTTO: Okay. We'll be watching that closely as well. Congressman Josh Gottheimer, I'll let you get back to work because I know you have got a lot to do up on the Hill. Thanks for joining us this morning.

GOTTHEIMER: Thanks. It's great to see you. Take care.

HILL: Well, right now, federal officials are searching a nature reserve for Gabby Petito's fiance. Why they think Brian Laundrie could be there.

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