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U.S. on Verge of Default; Former Treasury Secretaries Send Urgent Warning on Debt Limit; Bipartisan Police Reform Talks Break Down; FDA Authorizes Boosters; Couple Witnessed Petito Crying; Bryanna Fox is Interviewed about the Petito Investigation. Aired 9-9:30a ET

Aired September 23, 2021 - 09:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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[09:00:06]

ERICA HILL, CNN ANCHOR: Good Thursday morning. I'm Erica Hill.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN ANCHOR: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

Shutdown showdown. Lawmakers have just one week to reach a deal to fund the government and right now Democrats looking to take matters into their own hands, considering a plan b to raise the debt ceiling while President Biden works behind the scenes to garner enough support within his own party to keep his economic agenda alive.

HILL: Now, the administration's two track budget and infrastructure strategy really facing an uphill battle and lawmakers are losing patience. The key issue here, moderate Democrats say they won't accept that $3.5 trillion price tag on the spending bill. Progressives feel like they've already compromised enough. The White House now hoping to lock in a framework that would push progressives to support the $1 trillion bipartisan infrastructure deal passed by the Senate.

CNN's Lauren Fox joining us now from Capitol Hill.

All right, Lauren, we're a week away from the deadline to fund the government. The president, as we know, working frantically to save his economic agenda. And the big question is really what -- what is that plan b?

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, let's break it down because there's really two crucial dates. Like you said, it's one week until the government runs out of funding, and that is the must pass legislation that Democrats are still grappling with, how to get through the House and the Senate. Now, it's already passed the House of Representatives, but it included

an increase in the debt ceiling. Republicans in the Senate saying they are not going to vote to support that. So, if Democrats want to make sure that this government stays funded, what they have to do is likely strip out the debt ceiling increase.

And, as we know, the Treasury Department has made clear that the date is coming up for when the country will reach its borrowing limit. But there's a little more time. They estimate that date would be sometime in mid-October. So if Democrats then pull out the government funding bill, Republicans and Democrats would likely be able to come together to fund the government.

But that's a lot of moving pieces. A lot of votes that have to happen. A lot of things that have to fail first before we can finally get to a vote on just funding the government.

And it's not clear yet whether or not Democrats would actually break up the debt ceiling and the spending bill or if they would keep those two things connected, potentially daring Republicans to shut down the government.

So, a lot of moving pieces on just that one deadline.

Then you have the president's bigger agenda over infrastructure and that social safety net bill. Like you said, Biden met yesterday with several lawmakers and it was about four hours of meetings. And the intention of those meetings was never to get a deal in a couple of hours, but really it was to try to understand what do progressives want, what do moderates want? And coming out of those meetings, I think the battle lines are still very drawn, very entrenched from both the moderates and the progressives. Like you said, there's a disagreement over that top line money number, how much Democrats are really willing to spend on the president's economic agenda. And right now there's no indication that there is going to be a compromise anywhere in the horizon.

Now, the deadline is September 27th. That's next week for when the speaker promised her moderate members that she would bring that $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill to the floor. Progressives threatening to vote against it unless there's more progress on that broader social safety net bill.

Right now, it's hard to see where that progress is going to come from. But, look, a lot can change over the weekend. A lot could change today. These talks continue. But, again, we're crunching right up against those deadlines.

Erica and Jim.

SCIUTTO: Yes. Who blinks first is the question.

Lauren Fox, thanks so much.

A stark warning from a bipartisan group of former U.S. Treasury secretaries. They caution that waiting until the last minute to raise the debt ceiling increases the risks of, quote, an accidental default.

HILL: CNN's chief business correspondent Christine Romans joining us now with more.

So they're warning this would be disastrous. I mean there's a lot of real concern here.

CHRISTINE ROMANS, CNN CHIEF BUSINESS CORRESPONDENT: Yes this is not something to trifle with. This is not something to use as leverage. But it is and it has been many, many times, and it's a dangerous game to be playing. That's what these former Treasury secretaries say, both Republicans and Democrats here on this list. And they say, even a short-lived default could threaten economic growth, it could roil markets around the world and sap economic confidence, it would hurt the economy.

So what happens -- what happens when you don't -- you don't raise the debt limit? Well, then you have to operate the government, the country, on the money that's coming in. And that's not enough. That means you have to prioritize the bills you're paying. So you can't pay social security checks for 50 million people. You can't pay the troops. You can't give maybe -- the child tax credit can't go automatically to people's bank account. So it really matters.

And this is about America stiffing its creditors. Not paying its bills.

Here's what the former Treasury secretary, Larry Summers, said just a few minutes ago.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LARRY SUMMERS, FORMER TREASURY SECRETARY DURING CLINTON ADMINISTRATION: You can debate how much we should spend, whether -- how progressive taxes should be, what we should do about the corporate tax, there's plenty of stuff that you should debate. But nobody should be debating whether the United States is going to pay its debts back or not.

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[09:05:07]

ROMANS: Again, this is paying the credit card bill for what Congress already spent. By the way, Congress under a Republican and a Democratic president. This is what has already been promised.

SCIUTTO: We have been up to the brink before and pulled back, right?

ROMANS: Yes. Yes.

SCIUTTO: I mean are the markets betting that they reach agreement?

ROMANS: I think the markets are betting that they're going to reach agreement. But the real concern here among these Treasury secretaries, some of whom, by the way, Republican former Treasury secretaries, have been privately lobbying Mitch McConnell, the House minority leader, not to mess around with this. And he is apparently unmoved.

They're worried about the unintended consequences of getting too close, of the Treasury Department having to start to pull back on some of its payments and then that creating something -- unintended consequences with global markets that we don't know about. That's the real risk here I think in the near term.

HILL: It's frightening to think about and the politics that are at play here when there is so much at stake.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ROMANS: The debt ceiling, we raised it, I don't know, 60 times since World War II. I mean they do this, you know, over and over again.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ROMANS: They need to talk about what the debt ceiling is really for if they're going to blow through it all the time. If you're really going to have spending restraint.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

ROMANS: I've never seen spending restraint really in my career of covering Washington and the economy.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: Yes.

ROMANS: It's just too bad that they start talking about it always at the very last minute when it could really hurt real people.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: Yes.

ROMANS: Seniors, the troops, working families.

HILL: Yes, absolutely.

Christine, appreciate it, as always. Thank you.

ROMANS: You're welcome.

HILL: Well, lawmakers are putting a lid on bipartisan efforts to overhaul America's policing laws. President Biden now slamming Senate Republicans considering a new -- now considering a new path forward. This, of course, is after six months of failed negotiations.

SCIUTTO: CNN's Jeremy Diamond joins us now from the White House.

Jeremy, you remember that there was a real push and there was real hope of bipartisan agreement, particularly in the wake of Floyd killing and so on. It didn't go anywhere. I mean, is it done? JEREMY DIAMOND, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, it certainly

seems in terms of any kind of bipartisan legislation going forward, at least until the 2022 midterms. It's hard to see how anything could possibly get through Congress.

Keep in mind, these negotiations have been going on for months between Republican and Democratic lawmakers. Senator Tim Scott, one of the key lawmakers on the Republican side, Senator Cory Booker and Congresswoman Karen Bass, the key Democratic lawmakers. And what they said essentially in ending these talks was that while for some time they were making progress, in the last several weeks they were essentially getting further and further apart.

So now the question is, what can President Biden do? We saw him yesterday release a statement essentially criticizing Republicans for reject what he called even modest reforms. And what he made clear is that while he would prefer to see legislation passed, he believes that this moment demands some kind of action.

And so what we're going to see is the White House, in the coming weeks, consulting with those Democratic lawmakers who were working on this, consulting with civil rights organizations who have been working on this, and looking at the path forward and seeing if more executive actions might indeed be on the table. And that is certainly something that President Biden suggested in this statement yesterday.

Keep in mind, also, that civil rights organizations have been growing increasingly frustrated with the White House as what they view as their priorities versus the priorities that President Biden outlined during the 2020 campaign. They have not seen progress on voting rights. They have not seen progress on this police reform. So there going to come a lot more pressure to bear on the White House to actually do something substantive, even if it is at the executive action level and not via legislation.

SCIUTTO: Jeremy Diamond, thanks very much.

Well, the U.S. is one step closer to rolling out booster shots for some of those vaccinated with the Pfizer shot in particular. The FDA authorizing a third dose for people 65 and older, adults at high risk of severe disease, also adults whose jobs put them at risk of infection, such as healthcare workers.

HILL: CDC advisers still need to weigh in. They're meeting again today to do so. Then the CDC director is expected to sign off.

Let's bring in CNN medical analyst, Dr. Leana Wen, to discuss.

Dr. Wen, always good it see you.

You know, you wrote in an op-ed this week, the CDC should let Americans decide for themselves if it's their risk level really that puts them at a place for a booster shot.

Is the CDC guidance then on this still relevant? DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: Well, it is relevant, but I also

think the CDC needs to be very clear about what their role is and isn't. As in the FDA is the regulatory authority. The FDA has already weighed in and said that these booster doses, the third Pfizer dose, is safe and it's effective for people over 65 and people who are at high risk. It would be highly unusual, and I think would cause a lot of chaos, if the CDC were seen to somehow be overruling the FDA.

What they should be doing is, if they don't fully agree even, they should -- they should make a difference between allow and recommend. They could say, for example, that they would recommend that the initial people to get the boosters are people over let's say the age of 65, or healthcare workers or certain frontline workers, but then they should say that they can allow boosters for people who consider themselves to be high risk.

[09:10:04]

I just worry that the CDC is going to be too prescriptive because who is to say that, let's say a 28-year-old who has renal disease and heart disease and maybe a teacher working in a school where kids are not masked, I mean, we should allow that person to decide that they are high risk enough that they should be getting the booster. And I hope the CDC has this permissive attitude today, rather than being overly prescriptive with a recommendation.

SCIUTTO: OK.

Should we look at this, big picture, as a for now decision? In other words, that this will be in stages, that eventually the guidance will be that everybody needs or would benefit from a third -- a third dose?

WEN: Yes. I think if the evidence is increasingly clear that immunity does wane over time, the COVID vaccine may well be a three-dose vaccine, maybe everybody needs to get three doses. It might also be a vaccine that we have to get a booster once in a while, not once every six months, but maybe once every year or maybe once every ten years, like we do with a tetanus vaccine. But, at some point, it is going to be the recommendation that everyone is going to need a booster dose.

I do think it's reasonable to start with the people who are at the highest risk. They were the individuals who first got the vaccine. Also, their nursing home residents, healthcare workers and so forth. And so they've already hit that six-month mark. I think it's reasonable to start the rollout with them and then to -- as more evidence comes in, also to recommend boosters for the entire population.

HILL: Also want to get your take -- you know, you've been really outspoken in what works in terms of mitigation efforts, especially, I know you talk about this a lot as a parent of two young children who are not able to be vaccinated, you've talked so much about the importance of masking.

Dr. Scott Gottlieb was on "NEW DAY" earlier this morning talking about when masks may be optional in school settings, what that scenario would look like.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SCOTT GOTTLIEB, FORMER FDA COMMISSIONER: I think we're going to have to get to a point where the vaccines are widely available in schools. Schools aren't inherently safe environments, but they can be made more safe by taking proper precautions. Masks are certainly one tool.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: So getting to the place where vaccines are widely available in schools is when he says we could probably see masks go away.

When do you think realistically that would be?

WEN: Yes, I generally agree with Dr. Gottlieb. I agree that masks are a very powerful layer of protection. But it's one layer. And if we have so many other layers that are present, masking may be one that could go away.

But I would say that, let's say a school where it is -- or a particular class, everybody is vaccinated in that class, and also the level of community transmission is declining, I could imagine that situation being where we remove masks because we have all these other layers. Or, if we have rapid testing, imagine if every child and teacher were tested every morning. And also they're vaccinated. You can imagine that situation, even if there's high levels of community spread, that maybe you can remove masks at that time.

But we are nowhere near that yet and I think what we really need to do is get the vaccines authorized for children as soon as that's possible and also really ramp up testing because that is a powerful tool that we are just not using across the country as we should be.

SCIUTTO: Yes, approval of kids, it will be a huge step when it happens.

Dr. Leana Wen, thanks so much.

This just in to CNN.

The U.S. special envoy to Haiti has just resigned. He calls the deportation flights of Haitian immigrants, migrants, rather, inhumane. Hear what some of those migrants told CNN about their treatment after they landed in Port-au-Prince.

HILL: Plus, dive teams back in a Florida swamp today looking for Brian Laundrie. This as we learn new details about an argument he reportedly had with his fiance in the final days before she was killed.

And Republicans and Democrats storming out of a classified briefing on Afghanistan. We'll get reaction from Congressman Adam Kinzinger, himself, of course, an Afghan War vet. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[09:18:23]

SCIUTTO: Today, search teams will return to the 25,000 acre Florida reserve near the home of Brian Laundrie. The fiance of 22-year-old Gabby Petito has not been seen for nearly two weeks after returning from their road trip alone. And we are now learning more about what appears to be one of the last known sightings of Petito before her death.

HILL: A couple vacationing last month say they were at a restaurant in Jackson, Wyoming, and saw Petito crying and that Laundrie was visibly angry during a, quote, commotion.

CNN correspondent Amara Walker live from Venice, Florida, this morning.

So, Amara, what more do we know about what that couple witnessed?

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So this witness' name is Nina Angelo. And she tells CNN that she and her boyfriend were inside this restaurant when she saw Gabby Petito, visibly upset, along with Brian Laundrie, who appeared very angry during this incident between the two of them. She said this happened at a Tex Mex restaurant called the Merry Piglets in Jackson, Wyoming, which is located on the south -- the southern end of the Grand Teton National Park. And she described seeing Laundrie just getting really angry with the hostesses and staff inside. And so much so that the waitress that Nina Angelo says was serving her and her boyfriend was also visibly shaken from the incident.

Here she is in a post on Instagram talking about this commotion.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NINA ANGELO, SAW GABBY PETITO AND BRIAN LAUNDRIE ARGUING AT RESTAURANT: They were fighting with the hostess. She was hysterically crying. And she walked out and she -- she was crying and she was standing on the sidewalk.

[09:20:00]

And I was watching the whole thing unfold. And he walked back in the restaurant and he's fighting with the hostess. And he -- I didn't know what happened. I don't even know if they got kicked out. But they like left abruptly. And, like, she was standing on the sidewalk crying and he walked back in and was, like, screaming at the hostess and then walked back out and then he walked back in, like, four more times to talk to the manager and to like tell the hostess off.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: Now, the manager of the restaurant also telling CNN, without wanting to be identified, that the FBI was notified as a result on Wednesday after seeing the human remains being recovered on Sunday. The FBI declining to comment on this citing privacy reasons.

This incident apparently happening on August 27th. And keep in mind, that is the same day that Gabby Petito's mother described receiving an odd text to police from Gabby Petito. And this is believed to have been the last communication from her daughter. And then, of course, three weeks later she turns up dead.

So here we are, again, at the Carlton Reserve here in Florida, 25,000 acres continue to be searched for Brian Laundrie. Yesterday, the underwater dive teams arrived. It turned up nothing. They're back at it again. They're saying they're going to cover or try to cover every acre here.

Back to you.

HILL: Twenty-five thousand acres. That is a lot of ground.

Amara Walker, thank you.

Well, the city of Moab, Utah, now investigating how their police officers handled a possible domestic dispute between Gabby Petito and Brian Laundrie. This is the incident that happened on August 12th, the one you're seeing video of, the body cam video here. This is about two weeks before Petito was last heard from.

SCIUTTO: Police pulled over the couple after a witness called 911 and said they saw a man slapping and hitting a woman.

Here to discuss the case, former FBI agent Brianna Fox. She's also an associate professor at the University of South Florida.

Good to have you on this morning.

BRIANNA FOX, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: Hi.

SCIUTTO: I wonder, there seems to have been a pattern here prior to her disappearance, right, lots of public arguing between the two of them. Police pulled them over once. I mean when you look at the police response to this prior to, do you -- do you see them having missed red flags here?

FOX: Well, research shows that we are at highest risk of violence and even homicide by somebody who's our inner circle, as compared to a stranger. So that means that police would obviously want to be taking all of these incidents very seriously.

But at the same time, they did intend to separate Gabby and Brian, make sure that they were able to cool down.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

FOX: So I do think that this is worth an investigation.

SCIUTTO: Amara just laid out for us this incident that happened reportedly on August 27th at this restaurant in Jackson, Wyoming. This very public disagreement between the two. The way that Brian Laundrie's behavior was described in public. When a person acts like that in public, right, not just in private, does that give us some insight into how they might be in private?

SCIUTTO: That's a good question.

HILL: Who they may be?

FOX: Great question. And, yes, it does. If they're like that in public, it really shows that he's unable to control maybe his emotions, and it could be even more severe behind closed doors. And that new evidence, along with the police body camera footage, is some of our best indication of what their state of mind was immediately leading up to Gabby's disappearance.

So when all of this is put together, we're starting to build this picture of what may have been motive and at least state of mind of this couple before she went missing.

SCIUTTO: So there's an enormous search now underway, 25,000 acres in this reserve, not clear exactly why they believe, why they keep returning there. They sort of stop and start again. But can you tell us, because the FBI does this, right, and they're very good at finding people. Tell us what goes into a search like this at this point.

FOX: Yes. And the FBI is very good at finding people. And they leave no stone unturned. So everything from digital evidence, forensics, even small hairs and fibers that can be left behind, all of that is being collected, analyzed, and put into this case together. They're making absolutely sure that they are combing even the cell phone tower records, trying to see if there's any way to ping his whereabouts, license plate footage, anything that they can put together to understand the timeline of where Brian was going, who he's relying on now for support and where he may go in the future because he may not be able to stay there forever.

HILL: Are you surprised at all there has been -- right, we've heard this call for anybody who may have seen or heard something. And clearly it's been met with a response, right? We now know about this incident at the restaurant. We're hearing more about the couple that picked him up when he was hitchhiking.

SCIUTTO: Yes.

HILL: But at the same time, are you surprised that we're not hearing more about the time when he was back in Florida?

[09:25:06]

FOX: Well, we also are hearing a lot about the information that's relevant. There may be some information coming in to police and the FBI that maybe is not necessarily relevant. And so they're having to sift through all of that. I'm sure that there's some things being held behind that they're not telling the public and that's to protect the case integrity.

So I think as this keeps playing out we're going to find more information about people who may not have even known that they saw something that was relevant. And as we keep giving media coverage to this and hopefully even additional missing persons cases, people may start being aware of things that can help lead to the investigation being closed.

SCIUTTO: Yes, I mean, very well are things they're not sharing. And as many folks will say, lots of people watch television, right? And if someone's still on the run, they might then get clues as to where and how the police are searching.

Bryanna Fox, so good to have you on. Thanks very much.

FOX: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Just in to CNN, more fallout on the crisis at the southern border. The U.S. special envoy to Haiti has just resigned citing what he called inhumane decisions to deport thousands of Haitians. We're going to be live in the area coming up.

HILL: We are also moments away from the opening bell on Wall Street. Stocks looking for another day of gains after the Dow and the S&P snapped their four-day losing streak. Investors happy the Federal Reserve isn't ready to roll back its massive stimulus just yet as the economy continues to recover. But officials did indicate on Wednesday it could start tapering assets later this year.

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