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Border Crossings; Gabby Petito Investigation; Democrats Negotiate on Infrastructure Bill. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired September 23, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:01:08]

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Top of a brand-new hour. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

Democratic leaders are trying to push unity today as they attempt to salvage President Biden's agenda. Currently at stake, that $1.2 trillion bipartisan infrastructure bill and that $3.5 trillion social safety net bill.

BLACKWELL: Congressional Democrats say they and the White House have agreed to a framework to pay for the massive reconciliation package, but it's unclear what that means and how they will plan to raise the funds.

CAMEROTA: First, they have to avoid a government shutdown and raise the debt ceiling. And they have one week to do that. If they don't, the country would default on the national debt for the first time ever.

CNN's Phil Mattingly is at the White House. CNN's Manu Raju is on Capitol Hill.

Manu, you first.

You have got details about a vote this weekend. Tell us about it.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, the House Budget Committee is actually planning to meet on Saturday to take up that massive $3.5 trillion plan to expand the social safety net.

Now, this is not the final deal, because they are still negotiating the final deal. But the Democratic leadership wants to try to make it clear that they are moving forward on this process ahead of a separate vote, a key vote that's happening on Monday. It is tied to this vote that would approve the Senate-passed infrastructure plan. That was approved by the Senate in August. It has been awaiting action in the House. But House progressives have threatened to tank that Senate infrastructure plan if that larger bill to expand the social safety net is not done. They want it passed out of both chambers.

Now, there's no chance it will get passed out of both chambers by Monday. But the leadership is trying to convince progressives that -- ultimately, that this is going to become law and there'll be changes that will have to be negotiated, but they're making for progress.

Will that be enough to convince progressive to go along? Remains to be seen. Now, at the same time, the Democratic leadership is trying to make the case that they have an agreement among themselves -- this is the leaders and some of the key members of the tax writing committees -- that -- about how to pay for this plan.

They believe -- they say they have a menu of options on how to pay for this larger plan. There are still so many details here, including what the overall price tag will be.

And earlier today, when I asked Pelosi about that price tag, she made very clear that has not yet been agreed to.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: Have you settled on an overall price tag? Have you settled on an overall price tag?

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): No, no, we didn't talk about that. This is not about price tag. This is about what's in the bill, what's in the bill for children, what's in the bill, universal pre-K, child care, child tax credit, family medical leave for their families, protecting the planet for them.

It's about specific legislation. How much does that cost? How do we pay for it?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So there are still so many questions. And one of the questions, will Democrats who actually have to vote for this sign off on this?

We expect White House staff to meet with moderates in the House and the Senate over the next day. We have heard discussions continuing about what they can accept. Also, what can the progresses accept? Then they actually have to write it and vote on it.

So Democrats are trying to suggest there's forward momentum here, but so many details still yet to be written -- guys.

CAMEROTA: OK, now, let's get the White House perspective.

So, Phil, what did the president get out of that flurry of meetings with lawmakers yesterday?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You know, I think he laid the groundwork for what comes next. And that might not seem like nearly enough, given the very compressed time window that the White House and Democrats on Capitol Hill are dealing with and given the scale of the disagreements on these critical components of the president's agenda, really kind of the highest-stakes moment of his administration when it comes to his domestic agenda.

I think what you're going to see coming away from those meetings, coming out of those meetings is a ton of follow-up, right? As Manu alluded to, White House staff is going to be pretty intensively engaged over the course of not just today, but over the course of the next several days.

And the idea is not just to feel proud diplomas and concerns and try and figure out how to address them one by one, but try and move members, try and move the White House as well towards an actual outcome here.

[15:05:09]

And that's what I was told from members who were in the meetings with the president was kind of his ultimate top line here. There has to be an outcome. What can we do to get to an outcome? Those meetings were kind of the starting gun of what I have heard from White House officials will be an intensive process over the course of the next couple of days.

And that includes that framework that was announced today. Manu is right. In terms of details or what this means or how much closer this gets lawmakers and the White House to an eventual deal, there's not a lot there. There's always been a menu of revenue options. The House Ways and Means Committee already marked one up. The Senate Finance Committee has had a menu of options for several months now.

The point, though, is to show action, show that they're moving forward on something. I think the big question right now is, will that action happen within the next four or five days, as it needs to? Certainly, that push is under way right now, both publicly, but also behind the scenes on the staff level, guys.

CAMEROTA: OK, Phil Mattingly, Manu Raju, thank you both.

Turning now to the hunt for Brian Laundrie, Gabby Petito's fiance, who has not been seen for more than a week. Police are still scouring the 25,000-acre Florida reserve near his family's home.

BLACKWELL: Now, a neighbor told CNN that she last saw Brian on the weekend of September 10.

Amara Walker joins us now from the search site.

Amara, what else did this neighbor say about Brian and about the Laundrie family?

AMARA WALKER, CNN CORRESPONDENT: So we're hearing from a woman by the name of Karyn Aberts. She lives directly across the street from the home where Brian Laundrie lived with Gabby Petito and his parents. And she is saying that it was on the weekend of September 10 when she saw the Laundries, Brian Laundrie and his parents, out of the neighborhood out on the front lawn. And she said everything looked pretty normal to her.

But also remember this is the same weekend that Gabby Petito's parents in New York filed a missing persons report on their daughter. And this is also just a week-and-a-half after Brian Laundrie just showed up to his North Port, Florida, home right after this road trip without Petito.

And, still, Aberts telling CNN that nothing appeared out of the ordinary. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARYN ABERTS, NEIGHBOR: Saw him and the family in the neighborhood out in the front yard. I thought it was just, again, a normal -- they were going for a walk kind of thing, so never thought anything about it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

WALKER: Now, this neighbor, Aberts, also telling CNN that, earlier in the summer, she did see Gabby Petito and her fiance, Laundrie, out working on that van that they ended up taking on this cross-country trip.

They were working on converting the van. She also said that she saw them sitting in the van and laughing while they were working on it earlier this summer. And she also commented that the Laundries are very nice people.

Back here at the Carlton Reserve, we are in the fifth day of the search for Brian Laundrie, still no sign of him. This is video that was provided to us by the North Port police. And it shows them on a swamp buggy still combing the area. Not clear how long they're going to be here, focusing on this area for Brian Laundrie after the divers were here yesterday and their search turned up nothing -- Victor, Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Amara Walker for us there near the search site, thank you so much.

Let's bring in now criminologist and behavioral analyst Casey Jordan and retired FBI agent Steve Moore.

Welcome back.

Steve, let me start with you. And I want to begin with Karyn Aberts there. And so many people are following every detail of this story and the timeline. But from an investigative perspective, is there value in hearing everything seemed fine, looked like a nice family, I last saw them on the 10th?

What's it mean to you? STEVE MOORE, FORMER FBI SPECIAL AGENT: It is actually very valuable,

because what happens is, one thing you do in the FBI, one thing people make a profession of, in fact, is assessing threat levels.

Is this person dangerous? Is this person not dangerous? The thing about that is, though, there is never just a movie of somebody's life. All you get is a snapshot. And him being out, being cordial, and having fun on the 10th is just one snapshot.

On the 27th, you have no idea where his mind was. And one thing you tend to see is a progression. You're looking for basically their good nature, their issues to degenerate into more violence, more frustration, and that is how you actually track these things.

The problem is, not everybody who is potentially dangerous is monitored by professionals.

CAMEROTA: Casey, Brian Laundrie hasn't been seen for roughly 10 days. Now. I mean, most people would not be able to survive alone in the outdoors for 10 days. But we do know that he camped and that they spent some time in the outdoors. Maybe that changes your perspective.

[15:10:03]

But where do you think he is? What do you think has happened to him?

CASEY JORDAN, CRIMINOLOGIST: I mean, that's the million-dollar question, Alisyn.

They have combed this Carlton Reserve for a week now, and have found nothing. And people have been chiming in that it's a swamp right now. It's full of alligators and mosquitoes. Nobody would really want to camp there for 10 days. So I don't think anyone believes he's actually camping there, or they would have found him by now.

There's a bunch of theories that maybe he went there. Even his parents have expressed they're afraid that he went there to harm himself, opening the idea that maybe he is suicidal. But I think the prevailing theory as time goes on, as he is not located in the preserve, which they have just been scouring and scouring for all this time, that it is just a red herring.

And maybe the parents are even in on it. Maybe the Mustang got parked there overnight on purpose to make you think he was there to waste time, while he actually escaped and went on the lam as a fugitive from justice.

So the real question is, are they wasting their time, or is this something they have to check out thoroughly? Because, frankly, I haven't heard anything that says they have got a plan B of where to look for him.

Be very clear. They are, the FBI, everyone's looking for him. Social media is helping. We have had a few sightings that turned out not to be him. But I can almost guarantee that is how he will be detected if he is indeed walking this earth. People will see him and recognize him from social media and call authorities.

BLACKWELL: And on that point, Steve, he's still classified as a person of interest here, nothing more than that. Why isn't he a suspect?

And is there really any significant distinction in the search, considering, as Casey said, everybody's looking for him? If he became a suspect, would that intensify the search at all?

MOORE: I don't think it would change the search at all.

But Casey is right. This could all be a red herring. The parents could have just dropped him off somewhere and then dropped the car off opposite direction of where he went. And the parents, as we have seen -- I feel for what situation they may be in, but everybody's got to make a choice whether they're going to do the right thing or whether they're going to do the wrong thing.

But it would not change things at all if he was, at least as far as the search goes, changed from a person of interest to a suspect. Here's the -- here's why it's this way. If you turn into a suspect, you have to release court documents.

BLACKWELL: OK.

CAMEROTA: All right, Casey Jordan, Steve Moore, thank you both.

BLACKWELL: All right, we're going to turn to breaking news now, going back to the Southern border.

And Matt Rivers there at Ciudad Acuna in Mexico.

Matt, you showed us a line of people who were there. What are you seeing now?

MATT RIVERS, CNN INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, so basically what happened just about a half-an-hour ago, or when we were doing the live shot in the last hour, is there was about 10 immigration officials that kind of formed a line on the riverbank here on the Mexico side. And they were preventing people from coming.

Clearly, word spread in the camp. Let me get out of the way here. And we can show you. People here in the camp on the Mexico side are clearly scared that they won't be able to get to the U.S. Remember that people were coming here to Mexico because it was just easier to get supplies, water, food, it was less crowded, there was better bathroom facilities, clearly with the thought, though, that they didn't want to stay in Mexico.

So there's been a rush here with a few dozen people over the last, I would say, 20 minutes, where people are basically coming from the camp, just up the riverbank behind me here down to the water trying to get across.

If you will remember, before, there was a rope that was tied across both sides of the river here from the Mexico side over to the U.S. That rope has now been cut. It is now more dangerous for these people to go across. And you can see there are children. These are families. These are not a lot of single people. These are generally families that we're seeing, a lot of them that have small children.

And they're making their way across in kind of a last rush. And I just want to turn around. I want to show you these two guys here. You can see they're turning their backs to us because they don't want to be seen. But these are law enforcement officials both here and further...

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: ... on the other side. OK.

RIVERS: Yes. And so that's the law enforcement here.

And these are the people that have clearly sent a message to those on the Mexico side, saying this constant back and forth that we have been showing you over the last two days or so, that's not going to happen much longer. And that's why you have seen this rush of people trying to get over there.

It's just emblematic of how fluid the situation is. An hour-and-a-half ago, things were calm. No one was really here. It was very relaxed, and it's just emblematic of how quickly things can change in a situation as volatile as the one we're experiencing right now on the border.

CAMEROTA: And, Matt, is that river that we're seeing behind you, is that the normal condition of it?

Because you were telling us earlier that some people can be swept away. Right now, it looks fairly low. It looks like they can make it across, but it seems like it shifts

[15:15:00]

RIVERS: It's a good question.

Right now, it is generally lower. Further upstream, there are dams. And there are regular releases of water from those dams. So, yesterday, when we saw some of those people almost be swept away, the water level was much higher. Thankfully, for these minors -- we can show you. I mean, this is a small child here.

That's a toddler that's going to be carried across by her family, carrying basically what they have on their backs here. And this is something we have seen over and over again, small children being carried back across, back and forth across the last two days, but, clearly, these people going back to the U.S. probably for good at this point, willing to risk deportation.

Getting back to the river level, the river is lower than it was at this time yesterday. And that's a good thing for these migrants, because it's a lot less dangerous. Frankly, it's a good thing for the Border Patrol, in the sense that they don't have to perform the high- water rescues that we saw, or at least the throwing the line into the water that had risen to try and save that guy that we saw being swept away yesterday.

But this could change quickly. We saw the water levels rise quickly yesterday afternoon after water was released from a dam upstream. Not happening today. But like I said to you, in just about every way, this situation can change so quickly here along the U.S.-Mexico border.

BLACKWELL: It's interesting. I don't know if my mic was on when I mentioned it to Alisyn, is that when we spoke with Josh, who was on the other side of that river, there were state and federal officials there who have a line of vehicles, much like the line of people there are on your side of the border.

I'm not seeing anybody, although I'm not seeing the full shot now, walking up that hill. And if there's a confrontation with those officials, can you see if they're getting beyond those cars?

RIVERS: Let me get out of the way. Let me get out of the way. And we will Zoom in on the other side of the river here.

What's happening is, you can see all of the migrants that are arriving to that side of the river. They're being allowed to come up onto the bank, and they're going to basically make a left there, go up that road, and further up the river, that's where the encampment is.

All of the Department of Public Safety, Texas Department of Public Safety, officials are still there. Border Patrol is still there. They're allowing these people to come onshore. And I don't know if we can see that the Border Patrol officials right to the right there. There's a blue boat.

BLACKWELL: We see it.

RIVERS: And you can see so you guys actually have life preservers on. And they have those orange lines that they have in their hands. That's what they throw into the water just in case someone ends up getting swept downstream.

So they're clearly letting people come in to go eventually to that encampment. What they're not letting people do is just walk freely into the U.S. That's very consistent with what we have been seeing here along the river, basically allowing migrants to go across the river, make the left and go up into the encampment, where my colleague Josh Campbell, Rosa Flores, they have been reporting there for a few days now.

CAMEROTA: So, Matt, just so we understand what's happening, are you saying that the human wall on your side of the river that the customs agents or the law enforcement agents formed right there at the start of the river has deterred people on the Mexican side from hanging around, and all people there are now going back, because the show of force on the U.S. side is -- doesn't seem as impenetrable?

RIVERS: So, basically, what's happening now is with the Mexican law enforcement presence that's on this side of the river, they're clearly trying to finish what's been going on here. They want for these Haitian migrants to go somewhere, whether it's to

a shelter that we have just learned that has been set up here for immigration processing that might eventually lead to deportation, whether that's people going across the river here, which is clearly what happened.

But, clearly, Mexican authorities are trying to wrap up what's happening here on this side. They set up about 10 officers on this side of the river. And for a little while, they were preventing Haitians who wanted to go to the U.S. side, they prevented them from walking down into the river.

But after, I would say, maybe about a dozen Haitians came up, realized what was happening, I think word spread through the camp that these officers had arrived in a force that had not been happening before. And, look, let's turn around right here.

So, if you look up here, it's going to be difficult to see. There's a group forming right there. There's several Haitians that are not being allowed to come down. These are more heavily armed officers than we have seen before.

And they're walking down further along the river. So they're clearly trying to deter Haitians from going across to the United States. So a group managed to make it, but, at least at this point, Haitians are not being allowed right now to cross. It doesn't mean that they won't be able to make their way, but that's what's happening at least right now.

And there's a couple more migrants here behind me that came from the U.S. side. They're going to be coming back. We will see what happens as they try and go back into Mexico.

(CROSSTALK)

BLACKWELL: And it's important -- Go ahead.

RIVERS: (SPEAKING SPANISH)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)

[15:20:05]

So he's saying, basically, that he took three months to get from Brazil, which is where he was living.

OK. So, he left Haiti about five years ago, made his way to Brazil. And then he spent the last three months walking from Brazil, up here to the border.

(SPEAKING SPANISH)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (SPEAKING SPANISH)

RIVERS: OK. (SPEAKING SPANISH) So, basically, he's saying, here, he doesn't know what to do in Mexico. He doesn't have the opportunity to make money. So he wants to go across the United States.

(SPEAKING SPANISH)

So, he's basically going to see if he can come back here to Mexico. It's difficult to know. I mean, this is the kind of situation here on the border. We don't know exactly what's going to happen for these people who -- he's going to maybe go try and get supplies and then go back to the United States.

It's just such a fluid situation, guys, here on the border, it's really hard to know exactly what's happening because Mexican law enforcement does not seem to be uniformly carrying out a policy here. Are they letting people cross? Are they letting people in? Some people, they're stopping. Some people, they're not. Very fluid situation.

BLACKWELL: But there's a micro and macro point there.

Micro here, we have to remember -- you said this at the top of your hit, and we said it earlier, that people are going back into Mexico to try to get food, to get ICE, to get supplies. The U.N. has said that the conditions under that International Bridge are deplorable.

And if they're not allowed to go back into Mexico, will they deteriorate even further? The macro point here is that as the U.S. decides what to do with the Haitian migrants, and sending them back to their country of origin, the man you spoke with anecdotally hasn't been there in five years, and conditions are far worse after the recent earthquake and the assassination of the late president.

So he's going to a country that's in a worse position than it was when he left.

RIVERS: You couldn't put a finer point on that, Victor.

I mean, there's this situation happening here, which is so fluid, but he said it. We were in Haiti. I was in Haiti right after the assassination of the president there. I was in Haiti for the earthquake. That is a country that is in shambles right now, no question.

You just take those two events apart, not to mention the gang violence, the corruption, the endemic poverty, and so you have someone who left five years ago, in the case of that man, went to Brazil, found work. Many of the people here came up here due to hardship from the pandemic, economic closures down there. That's why they started to migrate up here.

What is he supposed to do, I guess, when he goes back to Haiti? What opportunities await for him there? What is he supposed to do when he goes back? He clearly had tried to build a life in South America, leaving five years ago. Remember, it was five years ago that Hurricane Matthew struck Haiti, which had left widespread damage. So, if he goes back, he gets deported. Whether he gets deported from

here in Mexico or in the United States, what awaits him in the country where he's from? And that is a question that is over and over and over again repeated. All of these migrants here have individual stories about why they left and what they're facing here and what they might do if they get sent back.

And the desperation of people that you just saw crossing this border here across the river, people who are putting their kids on their shoulders, they're not doing that because they want to do that. They're doing that because they feel like they have to do that, in many cases, to provide for their kids, to provide for their families.

Politics aside, for these people, these individuals that are here, this is just an incredibly difficult time in their lives as they're trying to just figure out ways to survive. And I think it's important that we all remember that as we watch these images.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

I mean, your images have just demonstrated for all of us watching, they have nowhere to go. They literally have nowhere to go. They're crossing back and forth. And they don't want to go back...

RIVERS: They are in no man's land here, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: They're in no man's land.

RIVERS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And even their homeland is no man's land.

And so obviously, there's no easy answers, but the Biden administration has to come up with some. And so that's why we're monitoring this every single day.

Matt, thank you very much for showing us all of that in Ciudad Acuna.

BLACKWELL: All right, let's turn now to this critical CDC meeting. It's happening right now.

A vote is expected any minute on booster shots.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:29:05]

CAMEROTA: Lawmakers are calling it quits in their effort to reform policing laws.

The George Floyd Act, named for the man murdered by a Minneapolis police officer in 2020, passed the House, but then it hit an impasse. Senator Cory Booker could not get Republican Senator Tim Scott, he says, to sign on.

Senators Raphael Warnock and Elizabeth Warren said, though, they are not giving up.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAPHAEL WARNOCK (D-GA): Listen, like many, I'm concerned about the issue around police brutality. And I think it's important that we keep the fight up. We didn't -- we may be where we are at this point in this moment, but we're not about to stop fighting.

QUESTION: So, you don't think it's over yet?

WARNOCK: No, absolutely not.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Nobody's giving up, not on our side.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Joining us now is George Floyd's cousin Tera Brown. She is the director the George Floyd Foundation.

Tara, thanks for being back with us. It's nice to see you again.

I know you must be so disappointed.