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January 6 Select Committee Issues Subpoenas to Four Trump Loyalists; Arrest Warrant Issued for Petito's Fiance for Actions after Her Death; Senate GOP Poised to Block Key Vote on Funding Government, Raising Debt Ceiling. Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired September 24, 2021 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: On Moderna and J&J vaccines, folks who got them, the president did say they are analyzing the data, therefore, presaging (ph) that they will come to some sort of recommendation after they've done that.

[10:30:09]

Just quickly, Sanjay, has the administration, has the CDC, in your view, ended up in the right place here? Because, of course, the original Biden plan, right, was to make boosters available to everyone, initially, but now this is a targeted group.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA: Yes, I think so. But it's a big group though still. This is more than half the country probably, really, that sort of falls into this group. So, I think the difficulty will be that, right now, a lot of people are hearing this message and 160 million people may say, well, I fall into that group, but only about 22 million of them are going to be eligible right now. So, I think that's still going to cause a little bit of confusion.

Moderna has submitted their data. The FDA hasn't looked at it. J&J has not yet submitted that data. So, it's going to be a little bit time coming for them.

Bottom line, though, I will tell you, the vaccines still work well. So, I think to the extent this gives people a lot of concern, I'm not quite eligible for the booster yet, I really want one, keep in mind that the vast majority of the problem -- when I say vast majority, 95 percent of the problem with regard to COVID right now in terms of severe illness is among people who haven't received one shot let alone a third shot. So that is -- we can't emphasize that message enough.

SCIUTTO: Yes. That statistic caught my ear there, that one infection per 5,000 fully vaccinated people per day. That's a very tiny, tiny percentage of breakout infection --

ERICA HILL, CNN NEWSROOM: And even that infection is likely, Sanjay, correct me if I'm wrong, those are not the people, even if they are fully vaccinated and you do become infected, they are likely not ending up on a ventilator in the hospital and certainly not dying, so the vaccine again doing its job. John Harwood, I do want to bring you in. So, the president was also asked a couple other questions. He was asked about the situation at the border. He said he takes full responsibility and he was asked about where things are, right, in terms of these negotiations. And two things that stood out to me. He was asked for a top-line number, what is his top-line number. We did not get one is the short answer that was a long answer from the president. He also said, my plan is overwhelmingly popular but not everyone knows what's in it.

John, if we look at that, there's been a clear messaging issue, I would say here, if the president is at the point where he says it's overwhelmingly popular but not enough people know what's in it.

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, look, it's a challenge because most Americans don't follow the ins and outs of debates in Congress. I thought this was fascinating, guys, an attempt by President Biden to reframe a picture that has emerged in recent weeks of a president who was floundering for control of his foreign policy, floundering to advance his domestic agenda and watching his poll numbers decline as a result.

What he tried to do was project calm and confidence, acknowledge that they were thrown off course by some of the natural disasters, Afghanistan, there's no pretty exit from a war, the setbacks that were unanticipated on COVID because of vaccine resistance, but trying to say that, yes, we are still on track to getting this significant, transformative economic legislation done and make some of the arguments he's making to holdouts on the Democratic side in the closing days. That is, you mentioned, Erica, the top-line number.

What he's trying to say is the top-line number is zero because I'm proposing to play for my entire plan. So, on net, it's not going to cost anything. That's tough sell, obviously, because there are big outlays and there are big tax increases to pay for them. And anytime you shake the deck that significantly, you're going to arouse some resistance, and we've seen certainly from the moderates in the Democratic Party, resistance to some of the tax hikes. But he was trying to get back on top of the story, intense negotiations over the next few days will tell whether that confidence he projected is justified but he was trying to change that storyline today.

HILL: Yes, certainly trying to change that and change the messaging that's out there, we're going to pay for everything we spend. We'll see.

SCIUTTO: It will be in the results, right? We'll see what passes next week, if it does.

Dr. Sanjay Gupta, John Harwood, thanks very much.

Still ahead, four of President Trump's former closest aides during his administration have been subpoenaed to testify under oath about the January 6th on the Capitol. What happens if they refuse?

HILL: Plus, the FBI getting an arrest warrant for Brian Laundrie. This though is not related to Gabby Petito's death. The latest in that case, next.

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[10:35:00]

SCIUTTO: Major developments in the investigation of the January 6th insurrection, the select committee in the House is now targeting four of Trump's fiercest defenders and closest advisers, issuing its round of subpoenas for documents and testimonies.

HILL: The committee is calling on Mark Meadows, Dan Scavino, Steve Bannon and Kash Patel to testify privately beginning next month.

For more, we're joined by former Federal Prosecutor and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General Elliot Williams.

Elliot, as we look at this, you've been a part of these congressional investigations, these subpoenas. How does that play out, because, again, this isn't a subpoena for an open hearing?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Right. And, look, this is a very aggressive move by Congress. Typically, Erica, it is the practice of Congress to attempt to negotiate with witnesses before they come in. They went straight to one because they were assuming that these, number one, were going to be uncooperative witnesses, and, number two, they did not want to waste time. And those are both factors that Congress has to consider.

I dealt with this quite a lot on both sides, and the goal is to move things along, get the information, and it seems that Congress just thought get the subpoenas out, this is the fastest way to work its way through.

[10:40:09]

SCIUTTO: Well, the Trump administration made a habit, frankly, of either fighting or ignoring or delaying congressional subpoenas. I mean, what happens here? I mean, how long -- if they choose to fight, how long can they fight before they're required to take the stand?

WILLIAMS: Well, at a minimum, right now, they are required, Jim, to take the stand on October 14th and 15th, I believe, which is the date that they are supposed to appear before Congress. Now, typically, what witnesses do is negotiate over the terms of those appearances and those dates may slip a little bit.

Now, if they don't, Congress has three options. Number one, they can sue in federal court to bring the people in. Number two, they can petition is Justice Department for an active criminal contempt, to essentially charge them with a crime for willfully violating a subpoena if they absolutely don't want to come in. And, three, they have this old power from the 19th century called inherent contempt. That's kind of a nuclear option and you really don't know how it will play out in the courts. It's going to end up in court anyway. So it's probably wiser for Congress to stick to one of those first two options I laid out, suing or going to the Justice Department. HILL: Real quickly, when it comes to former President Trump, it is expected that he may try to bring in executive privilege, as we saw before, how would that play in these situations?

WILLIAM: Yes, there are two reasons. Look, we want the president to be able to claim executive privilege, you want the president to be able to speak to his advisers and not be sued or subpoenaed every time. The problem for President Trump is that, number one, a lot of these communications were in the capacity of him as candidate Trump, not President Trump, and those just aren't going to be protected communications, number one.

And number two, you know, it can't be a shield for wrongdoing. You can't tell your lawyer you're going to commit a crime and then say that those are privileged communications. It's the same thing here. He can't have had conversations that teed up wrongdoing and then claim he's hiding behind a privilege.

So, he can make the argument. It's going to be really tricky because it's hard legally to separate the man from the candidate from the president, but that's what's going to happen in courts over the next couple weeks.

HILL: We'll be watching. Elliot Williams, I appreciate, as always. Thank you.

WILLIAMS: Thank you, Erica.

SCIUTTO: Up next this hour, day six of the search in a Florida nature preserve for Gabby Petito's fiance, Brian Laundrie. Now, the FBI is armed with an arrest warrant for him. Details of exactly what is in that warrant, coming up.

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[10:45:00]

SCIUTTO: The FBI has now issued a federal arrest warrant for Brian Laundrie, the fiance of Gabby Petito. That warrant, we should note, is not connected to Petito's death. It concerns his actions after she was killed. We're also learning new details about Laundrie's actions before he vanished nearly two weeks ago.

HILL: A source telling CNN he left his parents' home last Tuesday without his cell phone or his wallet. Laundrie's parents, according to that source, were also concerned that he might hurt himself.

Now, all of this as authorities have reported no sign of Laundrie. That search continues for him in the Florida nature preserve, which his parents pointed authorities to.

Joining us now to discuss, former Philadelphia Police Commissioner and CNN Senior Law Enforcement Analyst Charles Ramsey. Commissioner, always good to see you.

As we look at this arrest warrant, so this is for the use of unauthorized devices and claims that Laundrie's debit card and a pin number to two accounts that don't belong to him, charging at least a thousand dollars between, and these are interesting dates here, August 30th and September 1st. Does this change anything in your eyes? Does this signal something new to you in terms of this investigation?

CHARLES RAMSEY, CNN SENIOR LAW ENFORCEMENT ANALYST: Well, I mean, it does change things. In terms of a manhunt, I don't know how much it changes there other than the fact that they have an arrest warrant. He's now in the NCIC, which means that if his name is run anywhere, the warrant will show up. It will also have an impact on those around him if they know where he is or they're providing him with resources, they're harboring a fugitive now. So, in that regard, it does have an impact.

Now, they're doing everything they can to try to find him, so as far as the search itself goes, you know, that's just going to continue. But now it's expanded out nationwide.

SCIUTTO: As you watch the search, to the untrained eye, they look at this search and it's sort of on again, off again, looking at this vast expanse, right, of this nature preserve there, but, typically, authorities know more than they're letting on, right? I mean, what do you see and what goes into a search like this based on your experience?

RAMSEY: Well, they're probably doing a great search. It's very difficult terrain. My understanding is it's kind of a swampy-like area and so forth, difficult to search, poisonous snakes, alligators and the like. And that's assuming that's where he's at. I mean, we don't for sure if that's where he's at.

He may have told his parents that. It could be a misdirection. He didn't take his cell phone. You can track the cell phone. He didn't take his wallet. You can track credit cards. You certainly don't want to have a driver's license with your name on it if there's a warrant on you. That wouldn't be very helpful. So, he definitely wants to get lost.

So, if he sent people in one direction, he could very well have gone another. If he's at that park, he could very well -- the odds are he may longer be alive.

HILL: We know early on that local authorities were saying the family was not being cooperative.

[10:50:02]

Brian Laundrie was not speaking. His attorney initially said, the family really wants to remain in the background. His parents were ultimately questioned. Could they be brought in again? And if so, what do you think that would look like just based on, again, what we can see publicly?

RAMSEY: Sure. They could take him before a grand jury. They've been questioned already. But if there's more that needs to come out, if you want to lock them in in terms of their testimony, you put them before a grand jury. And if they're found to be lying, they've got a major, major legal problem on their hands.

So I don't know what direction they're going in. Jim, you said something very important. Investigators always know more than what's public. We just don't know what that is. There's a reason why they went back to that preserve as opposed to, you know, going somewhere else. But they have access to some information we simply don't have. We don't even know if she was murdered at the location where the body was found or if she was murdered somewhere else and then dumped there. We just don't know. And now they're trying to get evidence to tie him to the actual crime scene, wherever that is.

SCIUTTO: And you make a great point, right, that now with this warrant, anybody who might help him is now aiding -- would be aiding and abetting a fugitive.

Charles Ramsey, always good to have you on.

RAMSEY: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Well, by this time next week, the government could be out of money, that if Congress does not come together on a spending bill. Can the two sides make a deal? Will Democrats have to go it alone? The congressman who sits on the Financial Services Committee will join me live, next.

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SCIUTTO: Senate Majority Leader Chuck Schumer is planning to hold a key vote to keep the government open on Monday, but Republicans are expected to vote against the legislation because it includes a provision that would raise the debt ceiling, something, we should note, during Trump administration, Republicans would suspend it.

Joining me now to talk about all of this, Texas Democratic Congressman Vicente Gonzalez, he's a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee and the Problem Solvers Caucus and the Financial Services Committee, obviously very much involved in these negotiations. Congressman, thank you for taking the time this morning.

I want to begin with the president's comments a short time ago expressing optimism that both the infrastructure deal and the larger budget will get passed, that this is a process, as he calls it, the negotiation. Do you share that optimism?

REP. VICENTE GONZALEZ (D-TX): I do. I really do. I think we'll be able to get both past the finish line and deliver for the American people on massive infrastructure that, as you know, everybody needs in this country, regardless where you are. We have roads and bridges and airports and deteriorating drainage systems that the American people need from this infrastructure, and reconciliation is going to bring a lot of great programs. For the first time, we're going to have senior citizens that will have vision and dental and hearing care and kids will be able to go to community college tuition free for a couple years. And there's a lot of great things that are going to be transformative for America in this reconciliation and in this infrastructure bill. SCIUTTO: Trouble is though that even within your own party, you have both House members, Democratic House members, and senators who say the price tag is just too big, I'm not going that high.

[10:55:08]

And if the price tag comes down, some of those things, for instance, you just mentioned, may have to come out, free community college. So do you see compromise coming?

GONZALEZ: I do see some compromise. I don't think it's going to on the issues that I mentioned but I think on some things. And we need to be careful on pay-fors that we don't punish any one industry that we don't -- certainly that we don't punish Texas Energy or that anybody that -- anyone is just targeted in an unfair way. We need to be careful with that. But I'm optimistic we will get past this.

SCIUTTO: I want to talk about the situation at the border. The number of migrants has been reduced dramatically at Del Rio because the Biden administration, DHS, has been flying them out. They've been flying them back to Haiti, frankly, ten years after many of them fled that country. Do you support that policy? As you know, the Biden administration's own Haiti special envoy resigned in protest calling the policy inhumane.

GONZALEZ: Well, Jim, I support the policy of removals on all nationalities. I think that we should have a safe zone somewhere on the border of Mexico and Guatemala. This is what I've been proposing to our president and the past administration where we process asylum claims there and take the pressure off our southern border.

What's happening on our southern border is unsustainable and it needs to be addressed. I certainly have no problem with removals. It needs to be across the board. It can't target one nationality. We need to do it in a humane way and assure that these people have an orderly process to be able ask for asylum in this country, but certainly rushing our border is not the answer.

SCIUTTO: As you know, tremendous protest voiced, including by many Democrats, those images we saw on border patrol agents on horseback. The president said a short time ago that those agents will be investigated. But I wonder, when you look at the broader Biden administration policy, title 42, came from the Trump administration, the ability to turn migrants around because of the threat of COVID, I mean, shipping thousands of Haitians originally back to a country they haven't been in for ten years summarily.

I mean, these are policies that, you know, had Trump been president I imagine a lot of Democrats would be protesting. I mean, do you look at this and say there's less daylight between what we saw under Trump and Biden than you expected?

GONZALEZ: Well, what I'd say is that we should be treating every nationality on our southern border the same. I do believe we need to start removing people from our border back to their own country in an orderly, in a humane way, but we need to have a process for them to ask for asylum from their home country, from -- or their neighboring country, going to embassies and consulates around the world. The process cannot be walking 1,500 miles to our southern border and rushing the river into our communities. That just does not work.

SCIUTTO: The trouble is many, many thousands of people are still choosing to do that every month. And the numbers -- they dipped slightly in the most recent month but they're still at record levels, historically. The Biden administration has tried a lot of different approaches, right, but they don't seem to be working. Is it failing?

GONZALEZ: I think we could do a lot better. I think this system that I've been proposing about having a safe zone on the border of Guatemala and Mexico, where people can show up and ask for asylum and process their claim at that juncture, and if they actually qualify, they should be able to fly into the country, not have to make a dangerous 1,500 mile trek through Mexico to our southern border and create this immense pressure on America's southern border.

I think we need to do this humanely. We need to get it right. And we need to think about a better policy in how to do it.

I have a proposal that I intend to show to the White House, the same thing that I talked to President Trump when he was in office, about creating an asset, an area on Mexico/Guatemalan border to process these claims there. And until we have an intelligent system in place, it's going to be disorder on our border.

SCIUTTO: To that point just moments, the Mexican president said he does not want his country to become a migrant camp. Without Mexico's cooperation, that plan, I assume, doesn't fly.

GONZALEZ: Right. I'm talking about doing it on the Guatemalan border, but we also need Mexico's cooperation on this. I mean, we're all living in the same neighborhood. We need to work together. We need to figure this out.

SCIUTTO: Well, Congressman Vicente Gonzalez, we know you have got a lot of work to do in the coming days, not just on the border but also on the budget. We wish you the best of luck.

GONZALEZ: That's right. Thank you, Jim.

SCIUTTO: And thanks so much to all of you for joining us today. It's been nice sitting next to you this week here in New York.

HILL: It's been a pleasure, yes, absolutely.

SCIUTTO: A little bit of news this week.

HILL: There was just a little bit of news.

SCIUTTO: Yes, and probably some on next week too.

HILL: I think there might be. We could do it again on Monday.

I'm Erica hill. Thanks for being with us. At This Hour with Kate Bolduan starts right now.

[11:00:00]

KATE BOLDUAN, CNN AT THIS HOUR: Hello, everyone. I'm Kate Bolduan.

We are going to begin with breaking news out of the White House this hour. President Biden just wrapped up an impromptu news conference.