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Interview With Rep. Mike Thompson (D-CA); Republican Arizona Audit Flops. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired September 24, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:00]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: You can find me over the weekend on Twitter @AnaCabrera.

Victor Blackwell and Alisyn Camerota take over from here. Have a great weekend.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: Hello, and welcome to NEWSROOM. I'm Victor Blackwell.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: And I'm Alisyn Camerota.

Somehow, despite the facts, the hard data and undeniable proof that Joe Biden won the election, the big lie continues. Not that we needed more evidence that 2020 was a free and fair election, but, today, that's exactly what we got.

A review of the sham audit in Arizona, which was commissioned by state Senate Republicans, revealed that President Biden actually won 99 more votes in Maricopa County than previously thought, while former President Trump earned 261 fewer votes.

BLACKWELL: Now, Republicans' hope was that the audit would back up Trump's false claims of fraud in the state.

But Biden was declared the winner in Arizona in November, and taxpayers are still now on the hook for about $425,000 to pay for this partisan project. This is also inspiring copycat audit attempts by Republicans in battleground states that President Biden won. We're talking Wisconsin and Pennsylvania, but also states that Trump actually won Florida and Texas.

CNN's Natasha Chen is joining us now from Phoenix.

Natasha, the group that ran this, Cyber Ninjas, out of Florida, they are expected to detail their report in this presentation to the Senate this afternoon. What should we expect? NATASHA CHEN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, Victor, that's about

to happen in a couple of hours.

And, as you just said, they will detail that their hand recount shows that Joe Biden had an actual little bit of a larger lead than the Maricopa County canvass, results that a lot of Trump supporters have may not like to hear. They will also be detailing some of their issues they're pointing out, sowing some doubt on the elections process without a whole lot of evidence.

And that's all going to happen in this room behind us in the state Senate. You see some people lined up there prepared to go in. But we also see a lot of people gathered now across the street. And over here in this plaza, we see signs that say Trump won, stop the steal. So this is a group that is -- has their heart set on a somehow insisting still that Trump won, even though the result here with this draft report that we got a copy of last night with their handpicked group to audit these ballots shows that is not the case.

Now, we also are hearing from this draft report that they're raising potential issues that could affect tens of thousands of ballots, but with not a lot of substantial support for that to indicate that any one of those tens of thousands actually did have an issue.

So you have responses now from the county elections officials, as well as the Board of Supervisors, including the chairman, Jack Sellers.

He says here: "As we have done before, we will correct their errors and misrepresentations about the processes they don't understand. I hope those holding on to their anger for the past 10 months will see the truth and put their energy into supporting the democratic process, instead of trying to tear it down."

In the seats that are set up right behind me, we can actually see signs on those folding chairs saying that they are reserved for the audit workers. And then just to remind you who the audit workers were, they worked with Cyber Ninjas, this group that was hired by the Arizona state Senate, Republican-led Senate.

And the Cyber Ninjas' CEO has been known to spread misinformation about election conspiracies supporting the big lie. And during the process of five months, we have seen some very strange things, like workers using U.V. lights on ballots, ostensibly looking for bamboo fibers and, the processes, the methods continuing to change.

And that's one point that the -- Maricopa County makes an issue of that makes this audit highly questionable because of its constantly changing methods, no bipartisan oversight and other issues -- Victor and Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Yes, a lot of energy we're hearing from the crowd there behind you.

I just -- the people they expected to expose the truth, as they see it, didn't come out with what they expected. And they still don't believe now Cyber Ninjas. CAMEROTA: It's so weird, because they were based at the Crazy Times Carnival.

BLACKWELL: Yes. That's exactly where they were.

CAMEROTA: So, that -- if that doesn't scream legitimacy, I don't know what does.

BLACKWELL: Should have known it from that day.

Natasha Chen, thank you.

CAMEROTA: Natasha, thank you.

Joining us now is Grant Woods. He is the former Republican attorney general of Arizona.

Mr. Woods, great to see you. It turns out that Donald Trump lost Arizona by more votes than we previously knew. Are you surprised by these results?

GRANT WOODS, FORMER ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL: How about that?

[14:05:00]

Alisyn, a crazy thing happened to me, but it's happened to me like five or six times now. I was out in the downtown streets here in Phoenix, and Bill Murray came up, and he said, hey, big news, Joe Biden won Arizona. I said, yes, we knew that. You told me that yesterday and the day before and over and over and over.

(LAUGHTER)

WOODS: That's how it works around here. These guys, we have got a combination of some grifters at the top, professional grifters, these Cyber Ninjas and their ilk, who have been milking this for money.

And now they're going to other states to try to milk it. You have got some people with devious motives, some of these Republicans who realize they're not going to be able to win any other way, unless they try to rig the election. So they have said -- they have cast doubt on the electoral process.

And that is their excuse for why we need to change statutes, have new statutes to suppress the vote in certain areas. And then you got just a bunch of dummies out there who just don't know any better, and they will swallow anything, apparently.

CAMEROTA: Well, I mean, speaking of the grifters, as you call them, at the top, why didn't this sham audit just say that Donald Trump won? I mean, why didn't they just claim that they found boxes of ballots in a river or something?

WOODS: Yes, I know.

I kind of expected something goofy like that. Like, maybe at that Crazy Time Carnival, they found a couple of boxes of ballots or something, but -- over there with the carnies.

But I think their problem was, first, they are 100 percent incompetent. Let's be clear on that. The reason we know Joe Biden won is because we had the right people counting the ballots in the first place and the second place and the third place, people who knew what they were doing and were totally objective, not these knucklehead Cyber Ninjas, and who no one had ever heard of before, who have no idea what they're doing.

But I think, ultimately, they knew that even they couldn't rig the actual numbers. And so they were stuck with that. So now, in order to fulfill their duties, I'm sure they're going to cast some sort of doubt on, oh, what about this, have a bunch of mumbo jumbo jargon that none of us can understand.

That will be debunked by experts. And so that's what I see coming up, and then they will move on to the next state and, again, make money and cast doubt on the election and hope that the United States Congress doesn't do what it should do. And that is pass a voter protection act that will protect all of us from these guys trying to rig the system.

CAMEROTA: I do want to get to what's next in a minute.

But, first, have you spoken to any of your old Republican friends? Are they embarrassed that they wasted half-a-million dollars in taxpayer funds thus far and counting?

WOODS: Yes, well, my old Republican friends are -- they didn't support this in the first place. So they have been embarrassed from day one.

And that's a lot of the people who see that this -- I have always said Arizona -- I'm a native of Arizonan. Arizona has -- we have these patterns. We do great things, and then we do ridiculous things. We have great leaders, like the McCains and the Goldwaters and the Udalls, and then we have some of the biggest idiots ever elected.

So I'm striving and most of us are saying, we need more mediocrity out of Arizona. That would be nice if we could do that.

(LAUGHTER)

WOODS: So they were already embarrassed by all of this. And I think the embarrassment goes on.

CAMEROTA: So what happens next in Arizona? Is this now over? Can we all agree that Joe Biden won Arizona?

WOODS: I think so. I think they're going to have to agree to that.

I see that the former president from Mar-a-Lago has called on the Arizona attorney general to do an investigation. Of what, I don't know. He's running for office. So we will see how he responds. They could try to drag this out and again continue to cast doubt for the purpose of trying to rig the elections going forward. I think now, when even these guys say, look, Joe Biden won, I don't

know who's left to say that he didn't. He did. Get over it. Move on.

CAMEROTA: OK, I'll tell you who's left, Pennsylvania, Texas.

WOODS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: There are other states that are taking a cue from what happened in Arizona.

WOODS: Yes.

CAMEROTA: And they're trying to follow Arizona's lead. What's your message to them?

WOODS: My message to them is, wake up. People, wake up to what's going on here.

First, these Cyber Ninja-type people who don't know what they're doing in the first place, they're in it for the money, OK? So they're just trying to -- it's a grift. And there's a lot of grifters that we have been exposed to.

I was attorney general for eight years. I dealt with grifters every day. This is how they act. You would think they would go, oh, this didn't work out in Arizona. We're going to -- we're just going to go home and feel bad about what happened.

[14:10:04]

No, they're not. They never give up. They just move to the next mark. The next marks are these states that you name. And then you have got to look at the real reason why they want to do this. It's not to get to -- they're not going to show that the election wasn't what we know it was. Joe Biden won Pennsylvania, he won Michigan, he won Wisconsin, he won Georgia, he won Arizona.

Yes, and it's not going to change. But what they do in the process is what they have done here in Arizona is, they have got a group of people, a big group of people here who have a little bit of doubt now about our elections and our electoral system. That's a real shame, because, in Arizona, and in most places in the United States, we do a great job with elections.

We should be proud of that. And the best person wins. And that's what the Republican Party got to get back to. They ought to get back to, hey, we're going to win elections because we have the best ideas and the best candidates and get out of the business here of trying to challenge our democracy, question our elections, and basically rig the system.

Ultimately, they're going to pay a price for that, I hope. And I will certainly do all I can to make sure they pay the price.

CAMEROTA: We will see.

Grant Woods, thank you. Really appreciate talking to you.

WOODS: OK. All right. Good seeing you.

CAMEROTA: You too.

The House select committee investigating the insurrection issued its first round of subpoenas for documents and testimony and at least four of Trump's closest advisers, Mark Meadows, Dan Scavino, Steve Bannon, Kash Patel, have been called to testify next month.

BLACKWELL: Investigators want to know what the former president's inner circle knew about the plans that led to the Capitol attack and what decisions were made once the violence started.

Now, if those who are subpoenaed do not cooperate, here's where the committee chair told CNN's Manu Raju.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. BENNIE THOMPSON (D-MS): Well, criminal contempt is on the table. We have discussed it. And if it comes to that, there will be no reluctance at all on the committee to do it.

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: To hold them in contempt in your committee?

B. THOMPSON: Absolutely.

RAJU: That's one possibility?

B. THOMPSON: Yes, it is.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: Harry Litman is former U.S. attorney and legal affairs columnist for "The L.A. Times."

Harry, thanks for being back with us.

Let's start here just one step before we get to that criminal contempt. Any expectation? The chairman says that they're -- quote -- "not holding the opinion that they will cooperate." You think that's a fair assessment, that there will be a fight from all four, including Mark Meadows, who used to be a member of that body?

HARRY LITMAN, FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY: For sure.

And we know already that Trump is going to try as a third party. Now their legal claims, Victor, are really garbage. The executive privilege, which is the only point they could make, that's held and decided by the current administration. That's for Biden's folks to decide, and they have already said we're not going to claim it.

The drama here and the reason they're bringing out the big guns now is the possibility of a lousy claim, a spurious claim that, nevertheless, as we saw in the previous administration, in both the Mueller investigation and the impeachment, it takes time, way too much time for a lousy claim to work its way through the federal courts.

And that's going to be the dynamic. Now, the chair just said, well, we will go for criminal contempt. To do that, they need the cooperation of the Department of Justice. And you might think the department would be cooperative here, but they have a policy and an opinion that says we are not going to file criminal contempt charges in this situation against people in the executive branch anyway, including former people.

So that's the $64,000 question. Will this get gummed up in the courts, even though the claims are lousy? And will that strategy, which has succeeded in the past, again prevail?

CAMEROTA: So, just so I'm clear, Harry, it sounds like you're saying if they refuse to comply, these people who have been subpoenaed, that it would then just be a long and drawn-out court saga, and that that's what you predict will happen?

LITMAN: Right and right. And it's a real shame, Alisyn.

There's a disconnect between how long cases take and congressional subpoenas. It ought to be sped up. But in short, there are three ways to try to go to hold somebody in contempt. But if you want to go the criminal route, you need the cooperation of DOJ.

And if you want to do the route they have normally done, you have to hold them in contempt and then they challenge it in the federal courts and we have that sometimes long, torturous route all the way up to the Supremes. That's the worry.

And that's why, by the way, they're bringing out the big artillery now. They skipped a lot of middle steps. They are on Trump's inner circle because they know -- and it's wise -- if we're going to have this fight, let's have it now. Let's not lose another week. Let's engage and fight back as best we can.

[14:15:02]

BLACKWELL: All right, let's focus on one of the members of that inner circle, Steve Bannon specifically.

LITMAN: Yes.

And there is this portion of the new book from Bob Woodward, Robert Costa, "Peril," in which they talk about Bannon's involvement leading up to the insurrection on the 6th.

This is a portion of Steve Bannon's podcast where he seemingly admits to the reporting. Watch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERT COSTA, CO-AUTHOR, "PERIL": "We need to kill the Biden presidency in the crib."

That was the phrase, based on our reporting, in that conversation. STEVE BANNON, FORMER WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: Yes, because of

his legitimacy. Just let this go, what this illegitimate regime is doing. It killed itself, OK? But we told you from the very beginning, just expose it, just expose it, never back down, never give up. And this thing will implode.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: So, clearly, it's obvious now why the committee might want to talk to Steve Bannon, if he's now admitting that on his podcast.

Legal exposure here and the significance of hearing it from Bannon himself now?

LITMAN: Yes, Bannon is not shy about these things, is he? And the other two were the ones who were in the room with Trump also.

Legal exposure, we have talked about, but, really, their mission is getting at the truth. It would be a huge achievement just to be able to show Trump knew and facilitated the insurrection.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I mean, he sounds like Macbeth there in terms of the rhetoric.

LITMAN: Yes, exactly.

CAMEROTA: Kill the baby in the crib.

LITMAN: Yes, in the crib, yes.

CAMEROTA: I mean, it's all such a violent rhetoric. I mean, this is, again, the day before the insurrection and he's putting some of this stuff out on his podcast, saying things like all hell is going to break loose.

So it will be interesting to see if the select committee can connect the dots.

Thanks.

BLACKWELL: Harry Litman, thank you so much.

LITMAN: Thank you, Victor. Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, great to see you, Harry.

So, President Biden says negotiations are now at a stalemate, pushing his economic agenda further into limbo. A key lawmaker involved in the talks is going to join us next.

BLACKWELL: And a huge day in the fight against COVID. Tens of millions of Americans are now eligible to get a booster. We have got details on who should get that third shot.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:21:37]

BLACKWELL: The president's top legislative priorities, currently threatened by his party's infighting, are now set to go before the House next week.

House Speaker Nancy Pelosi has promised that the bipartisan infrastructure bill would get a vote on Monday. We will see if that happens. But it's not clear what day that $3.5 trillion Build Back Better Act will be presented.

Now, the massive bill is at the heart of a major divide in the party.

Moderates argue that it's too costly. Progressive say it's a must in order to get their support for infrastructure. Now, President Biden acknowledged the impasse today.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Now, we're at this stalemate at the moment, and we're going to have to get these two pieces of legislation passed. Both need to be passed.

And they will have a profound impact, according to not just Joe -- not Joe Biden, but according to Wall Street, according to the IMF, according to international organizations.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BLACKWELL: My next guest is one of the moderate Democrats who met with the president Wednesday to try to bridge the gap in their party.

Congressman Mike Thompson of California is with me now.

Congressman, thanks for your time.

Let me start here. Bridging the gap, how broad is it now? How close, how far apart are the moderates, are the progressives on that top number of this reconciliation bill?

REP. MIKE THOMPSON (D-CA): Well, Victor, thanks for having me on.

I don't see it as disastrous as some are making it out to be. As you point out, I was in that meeting in the Oval Office earlier this week with a group of my colleagues from both the Senate and the House.

And my read was, everybody wants to get this done. Everyone's looking for solutions. I don't think this is any different than any other major piece of legislation. There's a lot of negotiation that goes on. There's different people who have different priorities. And we're trying to work through all of that.

This particular bill is monumental. It's transformational. It's one of the biggest pieces of legislation that I have ever worked on and will be one of the most important pieces of legislation to pass the conference in a long time.

BLACKWELL: It certainly will be.

M. THOMPSON: So it's understandable...

BLACKWELL: Congressman...

M. THOMPSON: ... that it's going to take a while to get to an end product.

BLACKWELL: Understood.

So what's your ceiling? If $3.5 trillion is too high, what's your ceiling?

M. THOMPSON: Well, I don't know that I want to state a number. I think we need to recognize that, first of all, all of the programs that are in the bill currently are all good. They all help the American people.

I think what we're trying to figure out now is, which one of them deliver the most bang for the buck the quickest?

BLACKWELL: OK.

M. THOMPSON: And I think that that will drive the number, rather than chasing a number.

BLACKWELL: So you say don't chase a number.

You tweeted out, for people who are trying to understand the meaning that you had with the president, read this piece by "The Wall Street Journal." Sources inside that meeting said that the moderates wanted it below $3 trillion. Is that an accurate number, that it just has to come below $3 trillion? Does that represent your position?

M. THOMPSON: I believe that everybody in that meeting -- I don't think a number -- as a matter of fact, I know no one stated their number.

[14:25:00]

Folks talked about their priorities. Folks talked about the need to include provisions that can get put into place and address the needs of the American people quickly. But there were there no numbers that were mentioned.

BLACKWELL: OK.

So, Speaker Pelosi has also said, let's not focus on the number. Let's focus on the content of the bill.

You were quoted as saying, everybody wants this to happen. We have all got priorities.

What doesn't make your list? What are you willing to say, this has got to come out? I see the smile, because you know what I'm trying to get to. If you're trying to pare this bill down, something has to come out. What should come out, Congressman Thompson?

M. THOMPSON: Well, Victor, I would prefer to state it in a different way.

BLACKWELL: OK.

M. THOMPSON: I want to make sure that we do a number of things well.

And if we do that, and we deliver for the American people, I think that this is going to be a great success. Now, I have my priorities.

BLACKWELL: But, Congressman -- Congressman, that is, respectfully, very vague.

What specifically -- to say that you want to do a number of things and do them well. What specifically? Because the dollar number, the dollar amount is connected to a program. It's connected to universal pre-K. It's connected to many of the social structure programs that we have discussed.

Which ones have to come out to get you below $3.5 trillion?

M. THOMPSON: I will tell you the ones that need to stay in.

We need to have universal paid medical leave, and we need to have child care. We need to make sure that we continue with our tax cut to families with -- working families with children. The child tax credit has been extremely successful. It's helping people right now.

We need to make sure the GREEN Act the legislation that I wrote that focuses on renewable energy, that needs to stay in, yes.

BLACKWELL: Congressman, I get that, but nobody's arguing over what needs to stay. This isn't a fight of what can we all agree upon? It's about, what can we decide can come out to make sure it gets passed?

Last thing. Do you believe that Speaker Pelosi will keep her promise and there will be a vote on Monday for that infrastructure bill? And if there is not a vote on Monday, will you still support moving forward on the talks on the $3.5 trillion bill?

M. THOMPSON: I have every confidence that we're going to pass both bills.

As far...

BLACKWELL: Will there be a vote on, though, is the question?

M. THOMPSON: I don't know. I don't run the floor. That's the majority leader that runs the floor.

But I'm less concerned as to when we vote and more concerned about passing both of these bills, which I believe will do.

BLACKWELL: All right, Congressman Mike Thompson, Democrat from California, thank you, sir. M. THOMPSON: Thank you, Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right.

So, if you are eligible to get a COVID vaccine booster, the president says that you should do it now. The CDC director is now breaking with advisers to her agency and echoing Biden's call.

CAMEROTA: And, as the crisis continues at the border, Homeland Security Secretary Alejandro Mayorkas will face questions any minute now.

So we will take you live to the White House.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)