Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Trump Rallies With GOP Senate Candidate Herschel Walker; Interview With Georgia Lieutenant Governor Geoff Duncan (R) About Trump's Rally; GOP-Backed Election Audit Backfires In Arizona; Del Rio Migrant Camp Cleared, 2,000 Sent Back To Haiti; Outcry As Agents On Horseback Charge At Migrants; NYT: FBI Had Informant In Capitol Riot Crowd; False Positive COVID-19 Tests For Two "The View" Hosts; Jurors Resume Deliberations In R. Kelly Sex Trafficking Trial Monday. Aired 4-5p ET

Aired September 25, 2021 - 16:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[16:00:11]

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN HOST: You are live in the CNN NEWSROOM. I'm Phil Mattingly in Washington. Jim Acosta is off today.

Former president Trump returns to the campaign trail tonight in Georgia. The battleground state he lost in 2020 and where just last week in 2021, he again pressured officials to reverse that defeat, asking Georgia's secretary of state to, quote, "start the process of decertifying the election or whatever the correct legal remedy is and announce the true winner," unquote. This is the very reason some top Georgia Republicans wish the former president wasn't in the state tonight.

Now, when he takes the podium, he'll be throwing his weight behind legendary football player turned controversial GOP challenger, Herschel Walker, in the state's Senate race, but the worry is he will most likely as he just about always does ditch that plan and focus once again on the big lie. In just a moment, I'll speak to Georgia's Republican lieutenant governor about that.

But first, let's go to Perry, Georgia, with CNN senior Washington correspondent Joe Johns.

Joe, you are a veteran of many of these rallies. Tell me what you're seeing on the ground right now, what the general atmosphere is like in Perry.

JOE JOHNS, CNN SENIOR WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, it's kind of typical and this is sort of big lie central, Phil, if you think about it because Georgia's so much the epicenter of the controversy around the election with Brad Raffensperger, the secretary of state, who Trump told to find almost 12,000 votes to overturn the election in the state.

Take a look at this crowd and it will give you sort of the flavor. As I was coming in today, I talked to people, all of whom believe it was Trump who run the election here in Georgia even though Joe Biden was the clear winner. One of the things we see, and you just mentioned at the top, was a bunch of signs for Herschel Walker. He is the favorite son football player who's decided at the behest of Donald Trump to run for the Senate.

He hopes to challenge Rafael Warnock who won last time around. Of course Herschel Walker would have to get through a primary to do that. One of the big questions of course is whether Trump's support for a guy like Herschel Walker even Trump coming to the state will just do nothing more than rile up and energize Democrats as the midterm approaches.

The other thing I think is important to say that we're looking out for as we talk about Donald Trump and the big lie is that report that came out just this past week on Arizona and that bogus, if you will, indications of what happened there. Trump is expected to address the Arizona election this evening. He said so in a statement. Of course, it's not clear just how much he's going to say about Georgia because there's an investigation going on.

You know, our Sara Murray and other colleagues have reported that investigation continues to proceed a pace is the big question here in Georgia as to whether Donald Trump actually solicited a crime when he spoke with the secretary of state urging him to come up with those almost 12,000 votes -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: Yes. No shortage of issues. Joe Johns in the state former president Trump lost for the first time in 30 years for Republicans and also lost both Georgia Senate races. Thanks so much, Joe.

Let's bring in Georgia's lieutenant governor, Geoff Duncan, now.

And Lieutenant Governor, you had a warning for your party, writing in a very good CNN column this week. "This weekend, former president Trump is hosting a rally in my neck of the woods. If the legendary southern rocker Charlie Daniels were with us today, his hit song could be written as a president went down to Georgia, he was looking for a party's soul to steal."

Tonight, the former president will probably call out Georgia Republicans by name, probably you, who rejected the election lies. As I noted, that strategy went super well, 0 for 2, in January. I guess, I would start with this. Did you ever think that large portions of your party would still be embracing this today, nine plus months later?

GEOFF DUNCAN (R), GEORGIA LIEUTENANT GOVERNOR: No, certainly I didn't see it coming and you know, we've got an HR problem on our hands. The guy that's been fired in the building, we're still trying to get out of the building and it's a Republican problem and we're certainly going to work hard to get our best foot forward here and hopefully we can move on.

But, you know, look, Donald Trump is back in Georgia with the same old bag of tricks and my guess is he's going to continue to lie to America and to Republicans and continue to be a problem. I'm hoping that we start to wake up from this Trump fever and are able to move on. MATTINGLY: You know, there's something that happened this week that I

thought was really interesting and that was Senate Majority Leader Mitch McConnell in an interview with Politico's Burgess Everett basically said he was mostly OK with Herschel Walker, if he would become the nominee for the Republican Senate nomination.

[16:05:04]

And I thought it was really interesting because there had been a lot of talk for kind of McConnell world Republicans that Herschel Walker was a very damaged candidate if he decided to run prior to now, but it was also a really good view into this moment in time, which is Trump is about to endorse him. That will likely give him the Republican primary, but we'll see. And therefore, everybody has to coalesce behind him.

Is that what you think is going on? Is this just a strategic calculation purely for the midterms?

DUNCAN: Yes, I don't know much about Herschel Walker. I know more about his football career than I do his politics. I think that probably the majority of Georgia of Georgians are in the same boat. And look, my encouragement, if he was listening or if he would ask me, I'd say, look, you're going to need more than Donald Trump's endorsement to win an election here in Georgia. Kelly Loeffler and David Purdue are perfect examples of that.

You've got to dig deep in to the details of why we're conservatives. And that's really -- that's the side show that's happening is we're not focusing in as Republicans on what is an easy set of talking points. Joe Biden is what driving the car into the ditch every day before he finishes his coffee, and we're not talking about it.

I guarantee you tonight's little rally down there in Perry, Georgia, which is a beautiful part of the state with a lot of good conservatives, is going to be full of Donald Trump talking about all the people he doesn't like and all the people that don't believe in his little conspiracy theory, instead of talking about really what's happening in D.C. and around the country. And that's we're not taking care of the big issues.

MATTINGLY: How concerned are you that, you know, the midterms will actually give a false sense of what matters inside your party? Right? You wrote in your column that's just based on how precedent works, Republicans are in really good position in the House, probably in decent position in the Senate, and they decide that pursuing what they're pursuing right now in terms of the former president's priorities is a winning message when it's actually just the general infrastructure for midterm if you're a first term president.

DUNCAN: Yes, you know, look, I am worried. I mean, I want to win for sure. I want to have a Republican majority somewhere. We don't have it in the House or the Senate, or certainly in the White House. But we've also got to be careful what Republicans we put there. I mean, who really believes in our values and our tenets or who wants to just kick and scream and make the news like Marjorie Taylor Greene does. I hope we get a good set of Republicans that are able to put the

future on the table and really craft a plan. And that's really what my book was all about. GOP 2.0. It's about trying to lay out a plan that really reminds America why Republican values mean and matter so much and why it's the pathway forward. We've got our work cut out for us, but my gosh, we're making it harder for ourselves than it needs to be.

MATTINGLY: I want to close with this. The former president is of course under investigation in Georgia over his effort to overturn the election. You know, yesterday seven legal experts weighed in on the case, writing, quote, "We conclude that Trump's post-election conduct in Georgia leads him as substantial risk of possible state charges predicated on multiple crimes. These charges potentially include criminal solicitation to commit election fraud, intentional interference with performance of election duties, conspiracy to commit election fraud, criminal solicitation and state RICO violations."

What's your sense of things? Do you believe that the Georgia scheme we saw play out was criminal?

DUNCAN: Well, we have told the authorities that we will continue to cooperate with their investigation as it continues, and so I don't want to get deep into that process right now, but I was deeply appalled as an elected official and also as an American to watch a sitting president at the time reach in to try to change an election outcome for one sole reason only, and that was to save face.

And unfortunately, Republicans lost at the highest levels of the ticket, but we've only got three and a half years left to do something about it. And we're either going to cry about the past or try to pave a way forward for the future and I'm going to choose to do the future part.

MATTINGLY: Definitely a very real debate inside the party. Lieutenant Governor Geoff Duncan, you can read his column on CNN.com right now. Thanks so much, sir.

DUNCAN: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: All right. Turning now to Arizona where the big lie has been dealt the big blow. The highly partisan GOP-backed election audit there, well, it's not really an audit, it's something else that's not real. But one that included inspecting ballots for, yes, bamboo fibers has not only reaffirmed President Biden's win but it actually widened its margin. Now according to the hand-recount Biden gained an additional 99 votes in Maricopa County. The former president he lost 261.

CNN's Natasha Chen has been following this so-called audit from the very beginning, she joins me now.

And Natasha, I think the biggest question is, is this it? Can people leave Maricopa now who don't live there?

NATASHA CHEN, CNN CORRESPONDENT: Well, Phil, it should be case closed, but it's not. If you saw the people out there yesterday, Trump supporters, they were wearing shirts, holding signs. Still insisting that Trump won. And they were riveted by this presentation yesterday that lasted about three hours.

Now most of this presentation was about issues that this group Cyber Ninjas raised about potential problems affecting up to tens of thousands of ballots, issues that election experts have mostly debunked at this point.

[16:10:07]

The CEO of Cyber Ninjas spent just a couple of minutes talking about the actual hand count. Here's what he said.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DOUG LOGAN, CEO, CYBER NINJAS: We take a look at the presidential race, Trump actually loses 261 votes from the official votes. Biden gains 99 and Jergenson loses 204 votes. And again, these are all, you know, very small numbers when we're talking about 2.1 million ballots. These are very small discrepancies. So we can say that the ballots that were provided to us to count in the coliseum very accurately correlate with the official canvass numbers that came through.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

CHEN: And again, the rest of the presentation for three hours was mostly focused on not only issues that they raised that have mostly been debunked, but also recommendations for a -- what he called a tighter election process. Fueling conversations now among Republicans in the state to enact potentially tougher voting laws.

Ken Matta, the information security officer for the Arizona Secretary of State's Office, told CNN that 90 percent of that presentation was inaccurate. Yet you have all of these people who attended the presentation, people who were gathered outside who are still really hung up on this big lie, and now we are seeing, as you've mentioned, other states looking into options, also, to do third party audits, and, you know, continuing this conversation to try to sow doubt in the election process and undermine confidence in those 2020 election results -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: Yes. Equal parts bizarre, absurd, and dangerous. Natasha Chen, great reporting as always. Thanks so much.

Horrifying scenes at the border. Is this behavior out of control or how Border Patrol agents are trained to respond? We'll talk to the former acting director of ICE who's also a patrol agent, next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:16:16]

MATTINGLY: Amid the grueling trek to America in the hopes of finding a better life, but now, thousands of migrants, mostly from Haiti, are camping out under a bridge, sleeping in dirt, surrounded by garbage, living without food or much water have been cleared out. Many have been moved to other processing facilities along the border. Some have voluntarily returned to Mexico. Around 2,000 were sent back to Haiti on repatriation flights.

CNN's Melissa Bell joins me now from Haiti, a country in clear upheaval. Their president was assassinated just over two months ago, and I think most -- it's my biggest question here in the States, what are these migrants returning to right now?

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT: To the very chaos where indeed more of the chaos they chose to fled many of them many years ago, Phil. Since they headed out of Haiti in six, seven, eight years ago, depending on who you speak to, the country had already been in fairly big political disagree, great deal of poverty, large amounts of violence, gang-controlled parts of Port-au-Prince. That frankly has only gotten worse. And you only need to look at the assassination of the president back in July as a sign of just how insecure this country has become.

We caught up with one family who's come back still living under the shock of being returned to the very country they'd fled.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BELL (voice-over): Junior, his wife, Elianne, and their 2-year-old were deported to Port-au-Prince on Tuesday. Seven years after the couple says they left in search of a better life. They're now staying with friends. The three sharing a single bed. Not much, but more comfort than they've known for several months.

When work dried up in Brazil in June where they've been given asylum, the family headed north, through 10 countries. Some of it by bus, but much of it on foot.

Elianne, though, says that the worst was arriving in the United States. As they arrived, she says everything they had including toothpaste and soap was taken so that as they got into the prison, they had only the clothes on their backs.

She says that when they were called up, they thought they'd be freed. Instead, she says, we were shackled. Seeing my husband shackled was the worst, she explains. Then they handcuffed the women and then they put us on the plane. My baby was crying and I couldn't even hold him. And that was what made me cry.

The family gives us a tour of the neighborhood they find themselves back in. Junior says that Port-au-Prince is worse now than when they left. I asked him if it is in the insecurity that has worsened. He laughs and tells me there is no security in Haiti.

Gang violence, the assassination of the country's president and the aftermath of a 7.2 earthquake in August, just some of the dismal conditions forcing families to embark on the grueling trek to the U.S. border with Mexico. (On-camera): And yet the flights keep on coming. Seven in all arriving

here in Haiti just this Friday. Some here at (INAUDIBLE) Pass, others at the airport in Cap-Haitien in the very north of the country. The logistics, almost impossible to deal with says the International Office for Immigration, given the sheer number of people being deported.

(Voice-over): Back in a place they desperately wanted to leave. The dream of finding a better life in America ends here, back on Haitian soil with a handout of $100, a hot meal and a ride to the bus station.

FRANKLY JEAN, DEPORTEE (through translator): People are going to suffer now. There are no jobs and there is nothing here. What are those people going to do?

BELL: That's the dilemma facing thousands of migrants forced to return to a country the U.S. special envoy to Haiti called a collapsed state before he resigned on Thursday.

[16:20:03]

A small group of people turned out in Port-au-Prince to protest the deportations, a show of dissent but little help to the migrants still being flown back to Haiti. Returning to the many problems they thought they'd left behind.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BELL: Six more flights due to arrive here in Haiti, Phil, just today, and we expect that rhythm of flights to continue over the next few days. The big challenge for the NGOs now trying to coordinate those arrivals. This is a country already full of camps of internally displaced people, people who have been displaced by the sheer violence that reigns here in Haiti. The challenge now is trying to get these fresh arrivals somewhere to stay for those who don't have friends or family that can house them.

We spoke to the head of the IOM who is himself Italian, who said look, these many deportees in such a short amount of time would be a struggle for a country like Italy, where he's from. For Haiti, this is almost impossible -- Phil.

MATTINGLY: Yes. Really great reporting from the ground. Melissa Bell, thanks so much for that piece.

And joining me now is Ron Vitiello. He's the former acting director of the U.S. Immigration and Custom Enforcement, who's also the chief of the United States Border Patrol in 2017.

Ron, thanks so much for your time. First, I want to get your reaction to what we just heard in Melissa's piece. Obviously Haitians sent back to a country that's very clearly in upheaval. Look, this is a complicated time. You have the Title 42 Public Health order that's driving a lot of different things right now. But was this the right call from the Biden administration? RON VITIELLO, FORMER ACTING DIRECTOR, U.S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS

ENFORCEMENT: Well, they had to do something. The surge that we saw in Del Rio was caused by people believing that they were going to be able to come into the country and claim asylum but then be released inside the United States. And in fact that was happening probably for most of the year in places like Del Rio and across the southwest border.

This group organized and elected all to come in at the same time all at once. And you've got to feel for people who are in that situation. Anybody that's been a Border Patrol agent for more than five minutes has to come at this job with compassion. You know that when you're encountering someone and that you may have to put them into deportation proceedings, that they're going to go to some pretty terrible places.

But refugees and asylees in the United States are granted that status because they're being persecuted for their political beliefs or their religious faith, and you know, Haiti's a terrible place. The governance is horrible. I'm sure it's violent.

But that doesn't qualify most people for asylum. If you live in a bad neighborhood, it's bad and I feel for them and you have to have compassion for them, but under the law, that's not how it works. You have to show that you're being persecuted for very specific reasons to get asylum in the United States.

MATTINGLY: You know, more broadly and obviously asylum is a very specific issue and a complex issue, but, you know, the chaotic scenes that we saw at the Del Rio International Bridge, you know, including the photos of law enforcement on horseback using what the DHS secretary called aggressive tactics against migrants. We've seen the anger from local and federal officials. Vice President Kamala Harris said this. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Human beings should not be treated that way and as we all know, it also evoked images of some of the worst moments of our history where that kind of behavior has been used against the indigenous people of our country has been used against African-Americans during times of slavery.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: You were with the Border Patrol for more than three decades. Was what you saw that sparked the reaction from administration officials including the DHS secretary -- I guess, my question is, what did you see there? Is that what agents are trained to do? Was that something that was as horrific as administration officials have made it out to be? What's your read on things?

VITIELLO: They've overstated it. The president, the vice president, the secretary, the spokesperson at the White House have overstated what happened there. Those agents were given an impossible task. There were almost 10,000 people behind them and thousands more just walking across the Rio Grande River into Del Rio from Ciudad Acuna in an uncontrolled way.

They were given the task to try to put some order to that location and try and prevent people from coming in or get people to comply, which line to get in or where to stand, or go left or go right. And those agents, you know, I saw the video.

We've heard now from the guy who took the video who said he never saw anybody get struck. And so it's been overstated what those agents did. Horse patrol agents and the Border Patrol are some of the most highly trained agents in the cadre of Border Patrol. And so what we have seen is not usually seen by the public. We have 330 million people in the country.

Maybe 500,000 of us have seen a horse patrol agent in the performance of their duty. I get it. People aren't used to it, but it certainly wasn't against the law, it certainly wasn't brutal. Now, the secretary has ordered a full investigation of it. I'm just disappointed by some of the people saying that there's going to be consequences before that investigation is over, but I'm quite certain that this investigation will show that they were using the training and the tactics that they were given by the organization.

[16:25:13]

MATTINGLY: So how you're laying this out actually it brings me to my next question. You know, this isn't the first time that you've seen an image or a video elicit a visceral response from people when it comes to the border. You know, in 2018, you had the photograph of the small girl in the pink jacket crying as her mother was searched.

It became the face of the Trump separation policy. Later that year, women and children were tear gassed at a border fence near Tijuana. In 2019 a father and his 2-year-old daughter were found drowned in the Rio Grande. They were still clutching each other at the time.

And I guess the question is, are these images the harsh reality at the border right now or is there just something terribly wrong with how policy is being implemented at the moment that leads to these moments?

VITIELLO: Let's talk a little bit about the policy, but the border has always been a violent place. It's always been a place where agents and officers risk life and limb to protect us all. We have a sovereign border. We have the need and the law to help regulate what goes across that line. And so Border Patrol agents, Customs and Border Protection officers are at the ports of entry, in between the ports of entry, protecting us, and sometimes they face risks. Sometimes the worst-case scenario happens to them.

Let's talk about the policy. The policy is currently is chaos. We had a controlled border in January 19th. And now we don't. Why? Because we took the policy that was allowing people their due process, if they were in fact asylees, to claim that asylum and follow through in the due process in immigration court, but instead of being released to the United States under that policy, they were required to wait in Mexico.

In 2014 when we had a large surge of families and children come into the border under the Obama administration, Secretary Jeh Johnson asked guys like me, what do we do about this? We put -- ICE specifically put together family residential centers so that people could have their due process. But while they were going through the immigration court system, they were being held. So they weren't being released into the United States.

January 20th, they rescinded the migrant protection protocols. Many people are being released now at the border because they have young children or they're families with children and children that are coming alone, and so the signal has gone out across the globe, these people from Haiti unfortunately were already in the hemisphere. They heard that we weren't going to do deportation flights starting in May of this year, and so they all decided to come.

And that's the chaos that you're going to have when the policies don't support control and order at the U.S.-Mexico border.

MATTINGLY: Yes, it's certainly chaotic. We've definitely seen that.

Ron Vitiello, we appreciate your time and perspective, sir. Thanks so much.

VITIELLO: Thank you.

MATTINGLY: All right. The House Select Committee investigating January 6th has just subpoenaed its first witnesses. Why they're interested in these four men specifically and what they want to ask them. Next.

You're live in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:32:29]

MATTINGLY: The FBI had an informant in the crowd that stormed the capitol on January 6th. That's according to brand new reporting from "The New York Times."

"The Times" reports that a member of the far-right group, the Proud Boys, was texting his FBI handler during the investigation -- during the assault, sorry -- giving him a glimpse of what was happening.

CNN's Sunlen Serfaty joins me from Capitol Hill.

Sunlen, what do we know about this reporting and how it can actually impact the government's case against several members of the Proud Boys?

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: It could give the Proud Boys' defense some fuel here, given their lawyers in the past had argued they had no premeditated plan to storm the capitol even though they, of course, ended up participating in it in the end.

"The Times" reporting is the first time that we have heard of real- time communication going on between an informant between the Proud Boys and FBI. Essentially a play by-by-play breakdown as the insurrection was happening. So this is significant.

"The Times" is reporting from confidential records they obtained and a source familiar.

This person, this informant describes how they met at the base of the Washington Monument, marched up to the capitol grounds. There was some deliberation whether to go in or not. They ultimately decided to in the end.

But the informant denied that they had planned storming the capitol and participating in violence.

Certainly information about the timeline of when this informant first started working with the FBI back in July 2020.

Then it was late December of 2020 when the informant started to tell the FBI about the plans for a pro-Trump rally outside the capitol, including screen grabs of chatter that was taking place online.

Now one of the lawyers of the Proud Boys got back to CNN after this "New York Times" report hit today and said that the revelation raises a lot of questions and curiosity, they say, about what the FBI was doing with regard to the Proud Boys.

And noting, this lawyer says, from their perspective, intends to confirm that the Proud Boys made a spur-of-the-moment impulse decision to enter the U.S. capitol.

Now "The New York Times," in this report, did not name the informant. A leader of the Proud Boys in the past had told CNN that they had been an informant, but it's unclear, Phil, this is the same person.

MATTINGLY: Interesting developments.

Sunlen Serfaty, thanks so much for the reporting

[16:35:58]

Meanwhile, the Select Committee investing January 6 has issued its first round of subpoenas, targeting aides and allies of Donald Trump.

The committee is requesting documents and testimony from these four men: Former White House chief of staff, Mark Meadows, former deputy chief of staff, Dan Scavino, former advisor, Steve Bannon, and Kash Patel, a former Defense Department official.

Let's discuss this with CNN senior legal analyst and former federal and state prosecutor, Elie Honig, the author of "Hatchett Man."

Elie, this is the last time we are allowed to speak until after the Ohio State game next weekend, but obviously this is important because we have viewer questions.

One viewer asks: Who has the legal power to invoke privilege, the current president or former president? ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: It's a great question. We don't

know for sure because no federal court has ever ruled on that specific issue.

But if you look at practical precedent, it's clear that the current president has to control executive privilege.

As one example, early in his presidency, George W. Bush got a subpoena for documents on Bill Clinton's administration. Because the idea is that the privilege protects the presidency as an office, as an institution, and not any one individual.

And even if Donald Trump somehow as the former president has a right to invoke executive privilege, it doesn't mean he wins.

If Donald Trump's going to try to challenge these subpoenas with executive privilege, he's got a serious uphill legal battle.

MATTINGLY: A lot of precedent potential here.

Another viewer asks: "If a witness refuses to testify in Congress, can they be criminally prosecuted?

HONIG: Yes, but it's easier in theory than in practice.

Congress can refer a case to DOJ to consider bringing a prosecution. There's a federal crime for contempt of Congress. It's a misdemeanor.

If we look at resent precedent, DOJ, under both political parties, has repeatedly declined to bring criminal charges.

Merrick Garland is going to have to make this decision. He's got to start thinking about that now because that could be coming his way with these four witnesses.

MATTINGLY: Our final "Cross Exam" question: Can a person take the Fifth Amendment to avoid testifying in Congress or only in a criminal trial?

HONIG: Yes. On both.

A witness can take the Fifth in Congress. I know we think about the Fifth Amendment when someone's getting arrested by police or in a criminal trial.

However, if someone testifies under oath, that can be used against him or her in a criminal prosecution.

If you look at historical precedent, lots of famous examples: Oliver North in the '80s. Kenneth Lay, founder of Enron. Most recently, Mark McGuire in the steroids hearing.

Of course, there's a political and perception issue. It looks really bad to take the Fifth.

MATTINGLY: Yes. We'll have to see. I don't think they're worried about perception sometimes, this crew.

All right, Elie, 38-17, Buckeye's, that's the prediction.

HONIG: We're going to fight you, Phil. We're going to put up a fight.

MATTINGLY: I don't doubt it.

Coming up next, the COVID scare that played out on live TV.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

[16:39:31]

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need the two of you to step off for a second.

JOY BEHAR, CO-HOST, "THE VIEW": OK. Ana and -- and -- and -- Sunny have to leave.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK.

BEHAR: And we will tell you why.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More information later. It's a tease.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MATTINGLY: Welcome back.

This was wild to watch in real time. The hosts of ABC's "The View" were moments away from interviewing Vice President Kamala Harris when two of them suddenly tested positive for the coronavirus. The scare sent the hosts scrambling on air, live.

Here's CNN's Brian Todd.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BRIAN TODD, CNN CORRESPONDENT: On the popular ABC show, "The View," today, an awkward unscripted moment for co-hosts Sunny Hostin and Ana Navarro after an exclusive interview with Vice President Kamala Harris had been promoted.

BEHAR: OK. We are back.

And there seems to be something happening here that I am not 100 percent aware of.

Can someone please apprise me of the situation?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I need the two of you to step off for a second.

BEHAR: OK. Ana and -- and -- and -- Sunny have to leave.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: OK. BEHAR: And we will tell you why.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: More information later. It's a tease.

TODD: As Hostin and Navarro made their way off set, more awkwardness.

BEHAR: So shall I introduce the vice president?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

BEHAR: OK. So, vice president -- no.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: No.

BEHAR: OK.

Shall we dance?

Let's do a tap dance.

TODD: Another commercial break. Then, host Joy Behar returned with the news.

BEHAR: So since this is going to be a major news story any minute now. What happened is that Sunny and Ana both apparently tested positive for COVID-19.

No matter how hard we try, these things happen. They probably have a breakthrough case and they'll be OK, I'm sure, because they're both vaccinated.

TODD: The vice president didn't appear until a half-hour later in the very last segment of the show. She appeared remotely and she was on for less than eight minutes.

KAMALA HARRIS (D), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Sunny and Ana are strong women and I know they're fine.

TODD: CNN's Brian Stelter reports "The View's" hosts are usually tested for COVID twice a week but that they were tested an extra time this week because of the vice president's arrival.

[16:45:07]

A White House official says Vice President Harris, who has received two doses of the Moderna vaccine, did not interact with Sunny Hostin or Ana Navarro before the show.

But one medical expert says this could have been a close call for the vice president and speaks to the risks she and the president often face.

DR. SAJU MATHEW, PUBLIC HEALTH SPECIALIST: Anytime you are surrounded by so many different people from so many parts of the country on a daily basis, you are potentially exposed to that virus every single time. TODD: And Dr. Saju Mathew is critical of how the show handled this.

SAJU: I think the ball was dropped somewhere. Why did these anchors not know about their tests before the show began? Especially, on a day when you are interviewing Vice President Harris.

TODD (on camera): Those are among questions we posed to publicists for the view in e-mails and phone messages.

When were the tests done? Why did the hosts not learn about the results until the show was on the air live? Was there a breakdown in communication?

The publicists haven't gotten back with us, nor has Sunny Hostin.

I did reach Ana Navarro, who is also a CNN political commentator. She said she's shocked but feels great and is glad the vice president is safe.

TODD: Two sources told us CNN's Brian Stelter and Oliver Darcy that both Sunny Hostin and Ana Navarro have subsequently tested negative for COVID twice since Friday morning.

Brian Todd, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Coming up next, the fate of R. Kelly is now in the hands of a jury. We are going to take a look at some of the evidence presented during his trial, up next.

Plus, you are going to get a live look at a volcanic eruption on the Spanish island of La Palma. More on the emerging threat, next, live on the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[16:51:34]

MATTINGLY: Take a look at these incredible live pictures from the Canary Islands off the coast of West Africa. Lava spewing from this volcano in La Palma. Flight to and from the island are grounded.

The lava has destroyed hundreds of businesses and homes along with crops. Nearly 6,000 people have been forced from their homes and more evacuations may be needed. Extraordinary pictures.

Also, jurors in the R. Kelly federal trial will continue to weigh his fate when they resume deliberations on Monday.

The singer is facing racketeering and sex trafficking charges. He's accused of exploiting girls, women, and boys for decades.

CNN's Sonia Moghe has more.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE) SONIA MOGHE, CNN REPORTER: The jurors have been deliberating for four hours starting Friday afternoon. They had the task of wading through evidence and testimony from 50 witnesses in the first 21 days of the trial.

Some of the testimony they have heard has been incredibly disturbing. They've heard about sexual and physical abuse and videos of sexual encounters and humiliating acts by Kelly, some of which were received by federal agents. Some of those recordings which jurors saw as part of this trial.

Multiple women testify that were sexually abused by the singer when they were minors, young girls. They've testified that Kelly knew their ages and had sex with them anyway and, in some cases, recorded these encounters.

One woman said she was 16 years old when Kelly choked her to the point of passing out. And several women testified about chastisements or spankings that often left them bruised or bleeding, that they said were punishments.

Now, former employees of the singer and former live-in girlfriends, testified about something called Rob's Rules. Strict rules in place for dealing with his female guests.

Women said they were directed to stay in rooms and had to get permission from Kelly himself or his associates before leaving the room, even for getting food or going to the bathroom.

R. Kelly's attorneys say those rules were in place because his home was his recording studio to keep them secure.

But prosecutors say these rules were actually methods of coercion used to control his victims and to keep members of his enterprise in line.

That enterprise, prosecutors say, enabled the singer to exploit girls, boys, and young women for decades.

Now we expect these jurors to return here Monday morning to resume those deliberations.

Sonia Moghu, CNN, Brooklyn.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

MATTINGLY: Sonie, thanks for that report.

And that is going to do it for me. I'm Phil Mattingly. Jim Acosta will be back here tomorrow at 4:00 p.m. Eastern.

Pamela Brown takes over in the CNN NEWSROOM, live, after a quick break.

[16:55:38]

Have a wonderful weekend, everybody. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)