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Dems Push 10-Year Plan To Expand Education, Health And Childcare; CDC, FDA Recommend Pfizer Boosters For People At High Risk; FBI Said To Be Communicating With Informant At January 6 Riot; Bogus Arizona GOP Audit Shows Biden Won; Bogus Arizona G.O.P. Audit Shows Biden Won; Del Rio Camp Cleared, Thousands Deported To Haiti; Interview With Rep. Henry Cuellar (D-TX). Aired 7-8p ET

Aired September 25, 2021 - 19:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[19:00:31]

SUNLEN SERFATY, CNN WASHINGTON CORRESPONDENT: Hard sell on the Hill as President Biden's signature legislation hangs in the balance.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I see us in a position where failure is not an option. It is not an option.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: The big lie isn't about overturning the last election, it's about winning the next one.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The big lie. This idea of election fraud was not some passing storm for American democracy. It's the climate right now inside the Republican Party.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: A raw look at the intensive surveillance Britney Spears was under while a court-ordered conservatorship controlled her life for years.

MAX FOSTER, CNN ROYAL CORRESPONDENT: Prince Andrew officially acknowledges he's being served in a sexual assault lawsuit brought by Jeffrey Epstein accuser, Virginia Giuffre.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: I'm Pamela Brown in Washington and you are in the CNN NEWSROOM on this Saturday. Great to have you along with us tonight.

And tonight, House Speaker Nancy Pelosi is vowing that next week will be a, quote, "time of intensity." Right now lawmakers are playing politics with the nation's budget and it could all impact you directly. Monday is the Democratic leadership's self-imposed deadline for the House to vote on the bipartisan deal to fix roads and bridges, which would then open the path to the largest spending bill in U.S. history as it currently stands.

But there is a huge catch here. House leadership set Monday's deadline to appease moderates whose votes Democrats desperately need. Pelosi standing firm on that date. Progressives, though, have been threatening to sink the boat if the larger $3.5 trillion Democrats- only spending bill to expand the social safety net isn't ready to move as well. But tonight Pelosi says she wants that done this coming week as well.

Now moderate Democrats like Arizona Senator Kyrsten Sinema and Wes Virginia Senator Joe Manchin have come out against that spending bill saying it's just too expensive. But progressives have said they've already compromised with the number. It's obvious that Democrats can't afford to lose any votes with such a tight margin.

Here's Tom Foreman to explain how this huge spending plan will affect you.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

TOM FOREMAN, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): What can you buy for $3.5 trillion? High on the deliverables list is education. The American Families Plan would put $200 billion into universal pre-K, educating 3- and 4-year-olds affecting roughly five million kids.

It would provide two years of tuition-free community college for older students, with the feds picking up 75 percent of the tab, states covering the rest. There would be $82 billion for public school improvements, also more money for universities that serve minority groups including historically black colleges.

REP. DEBBIE DINGELL (D-MI): The D in Democrats is deliver. We need to deliver for the American people.

FOREMAN: There would be help with childcare, so middle to low-income families with kids under 5 would spend no more than 7 percent of their income on such services. It proposes to help low-income family save money by making the earned income tax credit permanent. And it would pump $35 billion into child nutrition, giving nine million more children free school lunches.

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): We're not leaving anything behind. So we're not passing an infrastructure bill, and then saying oh, there is no urgency to taking on climate change or immigration or any of these other things.

FOREMAN: $150 billion in grants is aimed at helping electric companies provide clean energy, $9 billion to modernize the power grid. There are rebates for consumers going more green, money for electrifying the fleet of federal vehicles and for conservation in agriculture and forestry aimed at, among other things, reducing the threat of wildfires. Critics of course are calling it an inferno of spending.

REP. TOM REED (R-NY): That contains significant tax increases on our small businesses, on individuals. It is a policy expansion using just partisan exercise of Democratic votes only.

FOREMAN: Still there is more, the bill would expand Medicare and reduce how much Obamacare users must pay. It would bolster affordable housing and put $190 billion into home and community services for the nation's growing senior population, the disabled and those who work with them.

(On-camera): Indeed this is so much spending over the next 10 years, it's possible that no one person knows everything that's in it.

[19:05:06]

All the more reason critics say there should be a lot of caution when looking at that whopping price tag.

Tom Foreman, CNN, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BROWN: And looming over this is a potential government shutdown. An unprecedented U.S. debt default with funding ending at midnight on Thursday. Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell is pushing Republicans in the Senate to not vote in favor of raising the debt limit. And while Democrats can pass it on their own they don't want to, which is why Democrats have tied the debt limit to the spending bill, hoping to get Republicans to agree to raise the debt ceiling.

So what would this mean for you? Well, if the debt limit is not raised in time, the U.S. would likely go into recession. Social Security payments could be delayed, the next monthly child tax credit payment may not be sent on time. Food stamp recipients could be left waiting for funds, troops could go unpaid. In the words of the president of the Committee for a Responsible Federal Budget, quote, "No one would be spared." That's from Maya MacGuineas.

Also, making waves in Washington tonight, a shouting match that anyone near the steps of Capitol Hill could not ignore. Democratic Congresswoman Debbie Dingell says this viral exchange with her Republican colleague Marjorie Taylor Greene Friday was not her proudest moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE (R-GA): Killing a baby up until birth is a lack of civility. It's called murder. Hey, about some order down there. Lack of civility. How about lack of laws or protecting and applauding our Constitution.

DINGELL: We have lots of laws. You should practice the basic thing you're taught in Church. Respect your neighbor.

TAYLOR GREEN: Taught in Church? Are you kidding me? Try being a Christian and supporting life.

DINGELL: You try being a Christian and try treating your colleagues decently.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So this all went down after the House passed abortion rights legislation and after an abortion rights event where an activist yelled at Marjorie Taylor Greene. Today Congresswoman Dingell talked about that heated exchange.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP) DINGELL: I asked her to be civil. Why can't she (INAUDIBLE)? So not my proudest moment but I am tired of being bullied and I have been bullied at different points in my life. And you have to show (INAUDIBLE). I don't want (INAUDIBLE) two women screaming at each other but I also want people know at some point you've got to stand up to bullies.

There is so much bullying and so much hate. She was just spewing hate and (INAUDIBLE). And look, I am not proud that I don't think we should yell at each other, I think we should respect each other and I think we should civil. I did not think it was right.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Join us tomorrow evening beginning at 6:00 Eastern when Congresswoman Dingell will be our guest. The Michigan Democrat will share her insights about the divisions on Capitol Hill and the race to avoid a government shutdown.

Well, to boost or not to boost. That is the question on a lot of people's minds right now when it comes to COVID-19 booster shots. And the CDC has weighed in with its recommendations.

CNN's Alison Kosik is in New York to walk us through this latest news. First up, Alison, who should get a booster right now?

ALISON KOSIK, CNN CORRESPONDENT: OK. So millions of Americans, Pamela, are now eligible for a third dose of the Pfizer vaccine. And as you asked who should get the booster, well, there has been controversy about this. And here is what the CDC advises.

According to the CDC, people 65 years and older and residents in long- term care settings, they should get a booster. People ages 50 to 64 years old with underlying medical conditions should get a booster.

What are examples of underlying conditions? It includes cancer, kidney disease, obesity, diabetes. So these are the kinds of conditions that could put people at risk for serious COVID cases -- Pamela.

BROWN: So who -- so, I mean, what would this mean, though? Like who would make it a booster right now? What does that mean?

KOSIK: Yes, the CDC is breaking it up into should, who should get it, who may get it

BROWN: Yes.

KOSIK: So you qualify here if you are between the ages of 18 and 49 with underlying medical conditions. And if you are between the ages of 18 and 64 years old, you're in a congregate settings like a nursing home, a prison or if you work in high-risk occupations, where you're exposed like in hospitals and grocery stores, so anyone basically at an increased risk of COVID because of where they work or the institutional settings in which they are then they may get a booster -- Pamela.

BROWN: So finally, who has to wait and for how long?

KOSIK: Well, that is a really good question. Only people who got the Pfizer vaccine for their first two shots, they're the only ones eligible for a booster shot right now. So if you got Moderna or you got Johnson & Johnson, you should not get the booster shots right now. We are still waiting on guidance.

The government will be rolling out more data and information for those who got Moderna and Johnson & Johnson. That information expected to come out in the coming weeks. Experts also still waiting on data on whether mixing and matching vaccine brand is safe and effective.

[19:10:03]

Also you should not get the booster shot right now if you've been fully vaccinated less than six months. And a booster is not approved for children under 18. It can get very confusing. You could go to the CDC Web site if you want to go run down all that or go to CNN.com. We've got a story there as well.

BROWN: Yes. Or stay right here because we have a doctor coming onto help us understand a little bit better.

KOSIK: Oh, good.

BROWN: Alison Kosik, thank you so much.

KOSIK: There you go. You got it.

BROWN: And joining us is Dr. William Schaffner, professor of infectious diseases at Vanderbilt University Medical Center.

Dr. Schaffner, thanks for joining us. So I'd like you to listen to what CDC director Dr. Rochelle Walensky said about making her decision on approving boosters for people in high-risk jobs.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. ROCHELLE WALENSKY, CDC DIRECTOR: I think you could tell by the duration of the meeting and the discussions that this was a scientific close call. In that situation it was my call to make. To the extent that people are concerned about confidence, I would they should listen to the deliberations themselves. We did it publicly. We did it transparently and we did it with some of the best scientists in the country.

(END OF VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: So Dr. Walensky split with her agency's vaccine advisors by recommending this third dose for people who are considered high-risk based on where they work even as she admits the country can't boost its way out of the pandemic. Do you agree with her decision?

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, PROFESSOR OF INFECTIOUS DISEASES, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY MEDICAL CENTER: Well, I think it was a very good decision. She expanded actually what the committee said, opening up the boosters to people who live in these congregate settings exactly as Alison said and who are in high-risk occupations. Teachers, health care providers, grocery store workers and the like.

The folks around committee debated the science, and they said, how are we going to get from here to there. And they gave Dr. Walensky a car, but she said, no, we need a bus. We need to take more people along with us. And it's just expanded the number of people who are now eligible for boosters.

As Alison said, if you've had the Pfizer vaccine and it's been six months since you've had your second dose, then check the Web site, look carefully, ask your healthcare provider if you are one of those folks who are now eligible.

BROWN: And when do we expect to learn more about those who took the Moderna vaccine or the J&J vaccine?

SCHAFFNER: Well, those companies are submitting their data. Moderna will come first. Their studies were completed first, and then will come J&J. And also as Alison said, there'll be some resolution of this question of whether we can mix and match. That is start with one sort of vaccine, get a booster with another. Not enough data yet, but many of uses are interested in that question.

BROWN: So why should people who aren't high-risk wait to get boosters?

SCHAFFNER: That's because these vaccines continue to work so well. They are keeping people out of hospital, preventing them from getting severe disease. And that was the major reason some of my colleagues on the committee were a little more concerned of, and said, yes, those folks may well need a booster down the road but not right now. They wanted to approach this more carefully, just focusing on folks who were in high-risk groups. And as I said, Dr. Walensky opened that up just a little bit.

BROWN: I wanted to just ask you, because the more we hear from vaccine skeptics, those who are still choosing not to get the vaccines, some side effects, but it doesn't really line up. They say that's why they're not getting the shots because of these potential side effects from vaccines. But those same people then take common drugs like Advil and Tylenol all the time. Yet those medications they have side effects, too.

I mean, here are some stats from PubMed.gov showing that acetaminophen, the drug that's used in Tylenol, is the leading cause for calls into poison control centers into the U.S. More than 100,000 a year along with more than 56,000 ER visits, 2600 hospitalizations and 458 deaths a year. So avoiding the vaccine because there might be side effect isn't very logical, is it?

SCHAFFNER: Well, we don't think so. All in all we think these vaccines are remarkably safe in comparison to the illness the COVID virus which causes much more illness than do the vaccine. And of course that's the cost benefit analysis that we addressed when we make our recommendations. And the recommendations now are very clear, if you're older than 12

years of age here in the United States, (INAUDIBLE) very specific contraindication, you should be vaccinated against COVID. Still have a lot of friends and neighbors who haven't yet made that decision.

[19:15:04]

BROWN: I know a few of my own personal life who still haven't.

Dr. William Schaffner, thank you so much.

And up next, the "New York Times" obtains confidential documents revealing how the FBI had an informant in the crowd during the assault on the Capitol. Pulitzer-winning journalist Adam Goldman who covers the FBI for "The Times" joins me next with his bombshell reporting.

And Prince Andrew officially acknowledges he's been served in a sexual assault lawsuit by Jeffrey Eppstein accuser Virginia Giuffre. Our Max Foster has more from London. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Well, for the first time we are learning of an informant communicating with the FBI, not just before, not just after but specifically during the January 6th insurrection at the U.S. Capitol. The "New York Times" reports the informant told his FBI handler that someone had been shot before he left the building.

[19:20:02]

Now it's not clear if he meant Ashli Babbitt who died from a gunshot wound that day.

Joining me now is one of the reporters breaking the story, Adam Goldman of the "New York Times."

So, Adam, help us make sense of the significance of this story. What more can you tell us about this informant and the communication with the FBI?

ADAM GOLDMAN, REPORTER, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, it's our understanding that the FBI recruited this informant who was part of Proud Boys, we're describing as a Midwest chapter, in July 2020.

You know, why they reached out for this particular individual and what they needed him to do, the origins of this recruitment aren't exactly clear, but the FBI was surely talking to him as you said before January 6th, in fact during January 6th and afterwards, and the informant's position is there wasn't -- in fact there wasn't a conspiracy by the Proud Boys to sack the Capitol, to attack the Capitol. That this all seemed to happen, you know, somewhat spontaneously.

BROWN: As you know, I used to cover the FBI, informant information can sometimes be looked at as dubious or you have to be skeptical of it. How credible was this informant in terms of really providing real-time information to the FBI? How high up in the hierarchy was this person?

GOLDMAN: Well, it's not clear to us that this informant actually had links to the hierarchy of the Proud Boys. So I assume prosecutors would someday could say well, he didn't really know what was going on, right? He didn't have visibility of this conspiracy at the highest levels of the Proud Boys. But it certainly -- you know, it certainly raises questions about what he knew and that who he knew and you know why he's so adamant there wasn't a conspiracy considering he was marching on the ground with them at the time.

BROWN: And it's important to note, the conspiracy part is important because that is what -- the conspiracy case is what federal prosecutors have brought against some of the Proud Boys. So this information now we're learning through your excellent reporting contradicts what the FBI has laid forth in courts, right?

GOLDMAN: Yes, I assume. I don't know this to be true, but I'm sure that prosecutors are going to have to grapple with this fact, right? I mean, this is so-called Reagan material. Right? And it also -- you know, I can imagine other defense lawyers reading this and wondering well, did they have informants in the Three Presenters, another extremist groups that was there? Do they have informants in the Oath Keepers? And what do those informants know, right?

We don't have a clear picture of how many informants the FBI actually had in these groups. To the best of our knowledge, there was only one FBI informant on the ground and that informant was not directed. The FBI did not tell that informant to go to the Capitol. He went on his own. It was voluntary. And that's an important distinction.

BROWN: But all of this also raises questions about why the FBI didn't connect the dots before the insurrection. I mean, obviously it was a failure in terms of preventing the insurrection. Right? But they had, as you point out in your reporting, this informant since July 2020. I mean, it raises some big questions about what was the FBI doing or the communications? How seriously were they taking this?

GOLDMAN: Well, and as part of our story, we also say they had at least another informant in their Proud Boy chapter, and that chapter took part in the event of January 6th. So, you know, it does raise questions about how hard were the FBI agents, these handlers actually working their informants, trying to learn more about those events, and were they themselves taken seriously or these are just sort of one-off questions to the information, what's going to happen, oh, nothing, OK, I guess that's OK?

And, you know, even during January 6th there were questions about, you know, when did the FBI actually realized that this had gone, you know, completely out of control. This is actually attack on the democracy, it was actually a domestic terrorism attack as the FBI director Chris Wray describes.

BROWN: Right. Especially given the conspiracy charges. You think OK, well, if you had informants, why didn't you see this conspiracy coming together beforehand. I mean, there's just a lot of questions beings raised through your reporting. Thank you so much, Adam Goldman.

And I just want to note, the FBI sent us this statement in response to that story. "The FBI's mission is to protect the American people and uphold the Constitution of the United States. An intelligence gathering is essential to those efforts. While the FBI standard practice is not to discuss the sources of methods, it is important to understand that sources provide valuable information regarding criminal activity and national security matters."

Well, thank you so much, Adam. We really appreciate you coming on again. Excellent reporting there. Helping us understanding a little bit more about what was going on the ground on January 6th.

Well, the Arizona audit didn't give Donald Trump the win he wanted. But it did succeed in undermining fate in our elections. Up next, former Arizona attorney general Grant Woods says it's time to investigate the people profiting from these sham audits.

You are in the CNN NEWSROOM.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[19:29:19]

BROWN: A Republican-ordered audit of the 2020 election results in Arizona restated what we already knew to be true that President Biden beat former President Trump in Maricopa County, and not only that, Trump lost by more votes than we previously thought. It should end there, right?

No, instead the review is serving as a model of sorts as Republicans crank up their efforts elsewhere. Most recently in Texas where Trump actually won by more than five points.

And what's more? The bogus audit makes a series of disputed claims about shortcomings in Arizona's election procedures. Things like ballot irregularities that could continue to sow doubt in the U.S. election system.

[19:30:00]

Joining me now, Grant Woods, a former Republican Attorney General of Arizona, who is now a Democrat. Good evening to you, Grant. You have called the sham audit a clown show, a joke. What do you say to Republicans, Republican lawmakers specifically, like Paul Gosar and Andy Biggs, two of the many lawmakers who supported this audit and the unfounded claims of fraud across the country?

GRANT WOODS, FORMER REPUBLICAN ATTORNEY GENERAL OF ARIZONA: Well, those two congressmen definitely fall into the category of clowns and jokes, there is no doubt about that. There's something wrong with those dudes. I don't know what happened to them, but they're a little -- they're not playing the full deck. That's all I can tell you there.

And this is -- the idea that they are now moving on these grifters, who have, you know, hit Arizona now for $6.7 million. Now, they're going to other states, including states that Trump won. It's part -- it's very revealing, Pamela, because it shows what they're really all about.

What they were about is -- and they continue to try -- is to try to sow enough doubt about our electoral system, about our democracy, that they can rationalize then going in and passing voter suppression laws.

If they don't have this and the truth comes out, the truth is, and I can tell you as a guy who was Arizona's Attorney General for almost a decade, there is no voter fraud in Arizona, then or now. And in most states, I would say every state, elections run very smoothly. There is not significant voter fraud in the United States.

So then you can't change the rules. There is no rationale for it.

So, you come up with these bogus, so-called audits, they're not really audits. And you throw a bunch of mumbo jumbo out there, which is what they did yesterday. They couldn't even rig the vote count. I mean, it didn't even -- it came out more for Biden.

I mean, these guys are incompetent, but they are competent in their devious ways, which is to sow doubt, so that then they can pass these laws which will suppress the vote, and then maybe they have a chance to win in '22 and in '24.

That's why I think, Pamela, it's -- the key thing, I think, for our democracy is going to come up here in the next few months, and that is that Congress needs to pass this bill that has now come forward, the compromise bill. It's a good bill, Senator Manchin did a great job on it with others, and they need to override basically these ridiculous state laws.

We can do it. Hopefully they will do it. But we'll see.

BROWN: We'll see. And I want to go back to the quote, "mumbo jumbo" you referenced. I mean, for those listening to the hearing yesterday, you know, they still tried to make it seem like well, we did see some ballot irregularities, and some Republicans I've seen have come out and say like, well, the vote count was different when they did the audit than it was than the election results by a little bit, well, Biden won a little bit more in this Arizona audit, so what do you say to them?

WOODS: Well, you know, so folks should know in Maricopa County now, the County Recorder is a Republican, the Board of Supervisors which are basically in charge there are four to one Republican. And they have called BS on this from day one. They have been unanimous on this.

And it's so bad, Pamela, that yesterday, while these guys were doing their mumbo jumbo, just making stuff up, in real time, the Maricopa County countered that with no, that's not true. Oh, they just said this, no, that's not true. Here are the real facts.

They said nothing yesterday that made any sense to the people who are the experts in the area, and that's just the point. BROWN: But I wanted to just to follow up --

WOODS: I mean, frankly --

BROWN: I just want to get to like a larger point here and that look, the election is done on such a wide scale, there will be irregularities. People will put maybe the wrong address on or things happen. Right? But that doesn't mean that all of that amounts to fraud and that so many votes were really because of fraud that someone got it past the election worker or something. You see what I'm saying --

WOODS: That's exactly right.

BROWN: Voting irregularities doesn't necessarily mean -- yes.

WOODS: Yes, that's exactly right. Right, and there are checks and balances in the system. And when they have things where people, well, they forgot to put them in -- put it in the envelope or they didn't sign it or things like that, then those people are called and you go through it and you figure it out.

I mean, Arizona has done a very good job in their elections for a long time. And I think it's shown by what went on here.

Remember, they did -- people who knew what they were doing, not the Cyber Ninja clowns who had never done this before, but real auditors came in and they did an extensive audit, and they found that Arizona's was right on the money.

Then they came in and did it again, just because there was so much you know, clamor about this. And again, they showed that it was exactly right.

So every time they've looked at it, it's just Groundhog Day around here.

[19:35:10]

WOODS: And you know, yesterday was Bill Murray's birthday, so I am excited that everyone is referencing "Groundhog Day," but enough of it, you know, you know, let's go to a new movie here.

BROWN: Let's look at the time and the money spent on this thing, though. It's not just Groundhog Day, it's like a resource suck for reaffirming something we already know. Really quick, I want to ask you.

A CNN poll found 78 percent of Republicans believe President Biden did not win the election. The G.O.P. is the party of the big lie. As a former Republican, do you see a way back?

WOODS: Yes, I think the best way back probably is you've got to -- the Republicans have been taken over really by the fringe, and then the mainstream elected officials are so scared of the friends who are now in charge that they won't stand up. They won't do the right thing. First, at some point in time, people across this country who were elected republicans are going to have to man up and woman up and tell the truth, and maybe even risk not being in office anymore because they're going to do the right thing and put their country above their party.

And if they do that, then the Republicans can come back. If they don't do that, then there's a simple answer, and that's we're just going to have to beat the hell out of them. We have to beat them in '22, we're going to have to trounce them in ''24 and then they'll get back to their old ways, hopefully, and be a principled party that put their country first rather than this authoritarian party that does everything possible to subvert our democracy, just so that they can stay in power.

BROWN: Grant Woods, thank you very much for coming on, sharing your perspective. We appreciate it.

WOODS: Thanks, Pamela.

BROWN: Well, Haitian migrants now gone from the awful conditions under a Texas bridge, but now living in limbo with their home country in shambles. What can the U.S. do to help? What will the U.S. do to help? What should the U.S. have already done?

Texas Congressman Henry Cuellar joins us next.

And join your favorite CNN anchors for a special night as they spotlight everyday people changing the world for the better, "Champions for Change" airs next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: The bridge is back open, the squalid conditions of a migrant camp now gone in the border town of Del Rio, Texas. This was the scene at the International Bridge a few hours ago, the camp was fully cleared Friday, a reversal of the conditions from just days ago. More than 15,000 migrants had gathered under the bridge waiting to be processed for asylum or entry into the United States.

The Homeland Security Department says 2,000 of them were deported back to Haiti.

CNN's Melissa Bell went to Port-au-Prince and found one young family who had gotten off the plane. They say there is nothing for them in Haiti. The situation worse than when they left seven years ago.

The mother told Melissa when they finally reached Del Rio, American authorities took away everything the family had including soap and toothbrushes.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELISSA BELL, CNN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): She says that when they were called up, they thought they'd be freed. Instead, she says we were shackled. Seeing my husband shackled was the worst, she explains. Then they handcuffed the women, and then they put us on the plane. My baby was crying, and I couldn't even hold him and that was what made me cry.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: Joining me now is Democratic Congressman Henry Cuellar, he represents a border district in South Texas below Del Rio. Congressman, thanks for coming on.

President Biden called it horrible, wrong, an embarrassment to see U.S. Border Patrol agents on horseback charging at migrants and that there will be consequences. Vice President Harris drew comparisons, you know, as well saying it was horrific. Do you agree?

REP. HENRY CUELLAR (D-TX): Well, you know, certainly we've got to give the Border Patrol the due process. You know, you can't accuse them and blame them and say they're going to pay without letting the facts in. So there is an investigation. I support the investigation.

I think everybody needs to be treated with respect and dignity, whether it's Haitians or people from El Salvador, Honduras, or any other of the 85 countries where people are coming from into the Southern border.

BROWN: I'm wondering what you think about Vice President Harris's role in all of this, and if you think she should be doing more? She has yet to visit the U.S.-Mexico border.

CUELLAR: Well, you know, it's a very difficult job, and I don't know if she asked for this job, but it was just given to her. You know, my suggestion is what President Obama did. You know, the Vice President at that time was Joe Biden. He was in charge of working with Central America. In fact, myself and Kay Granger in the appropriations, we worked with him to get the first $750 million that went to Central America, and then he had a border czar.

We've asked that a border czar be appointed, somebody that has a specialty with our due respect to the Vice President. She doesn't have that specialty. She was given that job. I don't know if she wanted it or not, but it is a very difficult job, and I think we need to have somebody with the specialization of dealing with the border.

BROWN: No, I mean it definitely is a really, really tough assignment to say the least. I mean this has been a complicated issue going on for years and years and years, but do you think she should be doing more? Do you think she should have already visited the border by now?

[19:45:17]

CUELLAR: Well, either she gets rid of that title or ask the President to get rid of that title. Or if you're given that title, then I think you need to show up.

You know, sometimes all you need to do is just show up. Show, you know, either the immigrants or the Border Patrol, or the border communities, which is something I feel that the administration has left out, the border communities and mayors, the county judges, you heard the mayor and the county judge of Del Rio, they were just under a lot of pressure, because you had in about three weeks, you had about 15,000 people that came in at that particular time.

So even if she just shows up, she might not have the knowledge, but even if she does shows up and does what Bill Clinton used to say, "I feel your pain," you know, just show up. I mean, I think that would probably send a strong message to not only the border communities, but to the immigrants, but also especially to the men and women in green and blue, that look, they're under a very difficult situation.

So it's not an easy job being a Border Patrol or somebody at the bridge, or even I.C.E. agents. I mean, look what happened in the valley. You had some Haitians that overpowered a bus driver that was transporting them or you had three I.C.E. agents that were hurt when they were transporting or even here in Laredo, I'll just say this at the minimum, there's been a lot of activity because some people don't want to be flown out of the United States.

But out of the 15,000, Pamela, that were there in Del Rio, about 2,800 have been flown out to Haiti, and then about 12,300 have been released into the United States, 12,300 have been released. They want to ask for asylum, but with all due respect, political assassination, earthquakes don't count for a reason to come under the asylum.

I think the people that were flown out should have been sent to where they had residence. For some of them, for many years, were living in Chile or Brazil, but then they decided to come here for either a pull factor or push factor.

BROWN: I want to ask you about what this has been doing in your own party. You are very clear that you believe the Vice President should show up, she should go to the border. We should know she has been to Central America. She has not visited the border.

She's been in this role for many months now. You say it would be smart to have a border czar. But this border situation is exposing rifts in your party. Listen to Congresswoman Maxine Waters.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MAXINE WATERS (D-CA): I am unhappy and I'm not just unhappy with the cowboys who were running down Haitians and using their reins to whip them. I'm unhappy with the administration. What the hell are we doing here? What we witnessed was worse than what we witnessed in slavery.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And you have other Democrats weighing in on this, Democratic Senator Mazie Hirono, you know, pushing back on this. You also had Beto O'Rourke pushing back on this.

I mean, some Democrats have been really outspoken, saying that they were not happy to say the least of what was going on with those Haitian migrants. Why is there so much disagreement within your own party about this?

CUELLAR: Well, look, first of all, we should have never, never been in this situation. We should have never been in this situation at all. And this is why back on December 11th of 2020, I called the transition team. This is why a week after the Inauguration of President Biden, which I supported. I support the President. But I think the way he is handling the border, he is listening to the wrong people with all due respect, because I've talked to some of those people.

He is listening to the wrong people. We should have never been in this situation of what, you know, what we're seeing right now. We should have never been in this situation.

I warned them since December 11th of 2020, and a week afterwards, week after week, I would call them, but they kept saying, everything is okay. Everything is okay. Everything is okay.

I saw this buildup of people that were coming in since last year and I tried to warn the administration, but again, you know, they're listening to too much in my opinion to the immigration activists. They need to listen to other people and listen to the border communities, the judges, the mayors that we have down here.

They need to listen and not get in this situation that we are seeing ourselves and it is pulling people left and right. You know, it really is pulling people left and right because of what we're seeing and I just -- you know, I just -- it is very unfortunate. I like the President. I support the President, but he is listening to the wrong people. He is listening to the wrong people when it comes to immigration.

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BROWN: And it's interesting you said, you knew about this since December. There was a D.H.S. official who said -- told reporters of migrants' arrival came as a surprise. So, it just raises all sorts of questions about the-disconnect here and we'll continue trying to press for answers on all this.

Congressman Henry Cuellar, thank you so much.

CUELLAR: Thank you so much.

BROWN: Well, Prince Andrew officially acknowledges he's been served in a sexual assault lawsuit brought by Virginia Giuffre. A look at what this means for the case, up next.

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[19:55:17]

BROWN: Britain's Prince Andrew officially acknowledging he has been served in a sexual assault lawsuit brought by Virginia Giuffre. Now, she is the woman who claims she was forced to have sex with him at the home of Jeffrey Epstein when she was just 17. CNN's Max Foster has more from the U.K. MAX FOSTER, CNN LONDON CORRESPONDENT: Pam, this is a real breakthrough for Virginia Giuffre and her legal team because they've long struggled to engage Prince Andrew in this case, and his legal team have now officially acknowledged that he has been served papers allowing the case to continue.

And if the judge signs off on this, he will have until the 29th of October to respond or potentially face a default judgment.

Now, the central allegation here is that Prince Andrew sexually assaulted Giuffre, starting when she was 17 in three separate locations, including London and New York. She says she was trafficked to Prince Andrew by Jeffrey Epstein.

Now, in the past, Prince Andrew has always denied these allegations. We'll have to wait to see how he responds to this latest set of allegations. He may choose to challenge the legality of the case, the jurisdiction of the U.S. Court. All of that will be due in this response by the 29th of October -- Pam.

BROWN: All right, Max Foster, thanks for that report.

And we're following breaking news in Montana, an Amtrak train derails. The first images from the scene just coming in. What we know right after this quick break.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

BROWN: Breaking news coming into the CNN NEWSROOM. A train has derailed in Montana by the Canadian border. We understand it's on the Amtrak line. That services travel to the Seattle area. No word yet on how many cars are involved or anyone is hurt, but you see here, it looks pretty bad.

Stay with CNN to get the very latest.

And a heads up for tomorrow, former F.D.A. Commissioner, Dr. Scott Gottlieb joins us live. We're going to ask him about booster, shots for kids, vaccinated and the unvaccinated, how close we are to ending this pandemic and to look at his new book on defeating the next one.

I'll see you again tomorrow night starting at six Eastern. "Champions for Change" is next.

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