Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Milley, McKenzie Say, We Assessed That 2,500-3,500 Troops Should Stay; Milley Says, Pulling U.S. Advisers Out of Afghan Army Years Ago Hurt Intel; Generals Say, If Afghan Army Fought, Kabul Likely Not in Taliban Control Yet. . Aired 10:30-11a ET

Aired September 28, 2021 - 10:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[10:30:07]

SEN. ROGER WICKER (R-MS): But further than what you mentioned, the allegation is that you told combatant commanders to report back to you. Our clear understanding is that they are not in the chain of command -- you are not in their chain of command that they report directly to the commander-in-chief through the secretary. And so to the extent that you told them to report to you, they were not in your chain of command.

Now, let me see if I can get one question in here, having taken two minutes to mention a very important objection.

General Milley, in the fall of 2020 you said an accelerated withdrawal would risk substantial gains and damage U.S. credibility. Now, when I asked eyewitnesses about U.S credibility, on July 8, President Biden said, the likelihood there is going to be Taliban overrunning everything and owning the whole country is highly unlikely. We now know he was advised actually this might happen. It turns out i was completely untrue, that statement on July 8.

Later in July, the president of United States, President Biden, says I trust the capacity of the Afghan military, better trained, better e equipped and more competent in terms of conducting the war. President Biden was wrong on that. We told our interpreters, our drivers, our friends, the people who had had our backs during this entire period of time that we would not abandon them, and that's exactly what we did.

And in an interview that's already been referred to on a network news, President Biden says, and I quote, if there's American citizens left, we're going to stay and get them all out. Two days later, the president of the United States said unequivocally said, any American who wants to come home, we'll get you out. We're going to stay and get them out. The president of the United States, our commander-in-chief, did exactly the opposite.

Now, I think you were right, General Milley, when you advised that our credibility would be damaged. Our credibility has been gravely damaged, has it not, General Milley?

GEN. MARK MILLEY, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: I think that our credibility with allies and partners around the world and with adversaries is being intensely reviewed by them to see which way this is going to go, and I think that damage is one word that could be used, yes.

WICKER: Yes, and, Secretary Austin, no question that this sends a disastrous message to China and Russia. What message does it send to our NATO allies and our other allies around the world about not only our credibility but our national resolve?

LLOYD AUSTIN, DEFENSE SECRETARY: Thanks, Senator. What the world witnessed is the United States military evacuating 124,000 people out of a contested environment in 17 days.

WICKER: Well, you testified that was a great accomplishment, our withdrawal and our evacuation. What about our credibility?

AUSTIN: As I engage my counterparts, I think our credibility remains solid. Clearly, Senator, there will be people who question things going forward, but I would say that, you know, the United States military is one that -- and the United States of America, people place great trust and confidence in, and relationships are things we have to work on continuously. We understand that and we'll continue to do that.

SEN. JACK REED (D-RI): Thank you, Senator Wicker. Senator Gillibrand, please?

SEN. KIRSTEN GILLIBRAND (D-NY): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I'm also very grateful to our service member who is committed so much over the last 20 years, and I do want to thank President Biden for taking the tough yet necessary step to stop and end an endless war, something that many of us have pushed for over the last decade.

There's obviously still a lot to do both overseas and here at home, such as ensuring that Afghan refugees are treated respectfully and responsibly both on a DOD basis, such as ensuring that they can be transitioned into their new lives in the United States. We also have the responsibility to our troops and to all Americans to make sure that we have a complete picture of what we did, accomplished and happened over the last 20 years across all the administrations.

[10:35:04]

We have to look back so that we can do better when we look forward.

One way to do better is to make sure Congress maintains and fulfills its constitutional responsibility. We have to put back into the hands of Congress the right and responsibility to declare war. What started as a mission to defeat Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and the perceived threat in Iraq expanded to 20 years of war in multiple countries with hundreds of thousands of lives lost and trillions of dollars spent. This is why I introduced the war powers reform resolution so that Congress can take back this responsibility for the benefit of our service members.

Congress must set clear and defined goals for the use of military force abroad and place a limit to how long, where, and against whom we can continue military action without a new authorization in order to finally put a stop to endless wars and prevent them in the future.

Second, there should be a comprehensive, rigorous and objective audit on the war in its entirety. Over the last 20 years, the United States spent more than $2 trillion on the war in Afghanistan and we lost thousands of American lives and tens of thousands of Afghan civilians. I commend the special inspector general for Afghan reconstruction for its independent and objective oversight of the Afghanistan reconstruction. But I do have questions beyond that.

First, General Milley, in your testimony, you said -- you mentioned that there are many lessons to be learned. What did you mean by that statement?

MILLEY: I think -- Senator, thank you. I think there's a series of strategic lessons to be learned, and I would echo some of the ones that Senator Reed mentioned early on, specific military lessons we have to take a hard look at. The United States military was tasked under the 2002 bond (ph) agreement to train, man, and equip the Afghan army. The Germans were required to train, arm and equip the Afghan police.

As we built that army and all of its components, I think that one error we may have made over time is we made them too dependent on technology, too dependent on our capabilities, we didn't take in the cultural aspects perhaps as much as we should have, and we mirror- imaged, to put it simply. I think that's a big lesson. We're going to have to take a hard look at it. And the result is when you pull contractors, you pull troops, that, I think, is one of many contributing factors, which was the rapid collapse. So, that's a big lesson.

Another one is the intel lesson that we talked about. I think that's in the military realm as well as the intelligence community realm. There's a lot of other lessons, legitimacy of the government, corruption of the government. Those sorts of things are all out there as to why that government collapsed as rapidly as it could. But those are for others to sort out. There's a specific set of military lessons we need to pull out within the military.

GILLIBRAND: I of also read -- I've read various opinion pieces. I know everyone here is deeply disturbed that the trained Afghan military did not perform as expected. I'd like your thoughts on if they had performed as expected, would we have seen a prolonged civil war? What is your estimate of what the impact of them actually fighting would have been?

MILLEY: My estimate is if they had, you know, performed as we expected them to perform, that the government would still be there, they would have probably lost significant chunks of territory, but Kabul would be there and some of the major provincial capitals. But I'd defer that. Probably you'd get a more granular view from that from General McKenzie.

GILLIBRAND: General McKenzie?

GEN. KENNETH FRANK MCKENZIE, U.S. CENTCOM COMMANDER: I think had the Afghan military fought, we would probably have seen the Kabul, the approaches to Kabul, get into the winter, still under the control of the government of Afghanistan. A lot of the outlying provinces would not have been.

But I would just note that it wasn't so much a collapse of the Afghan military as the collapse of the Afghan government writ large. Those two things happened together and they were completely linked together. So, when you consider one, I think you have to think about the other.

GILLIBRAND: Additionally in retrospect, one of the areas of debate has been whether we should have startled our evacuation earlier. And I recognize that the Kabul government asked us not to start our evacuation early. Can you speak to what you now know and whether it would have been smarter or more effective if we started to evacuate personnel a year in advance or six months in advance or any time in advance?

REED: Could I ask the senator to --

GILLIBRAND: I apologize, I didn't realize my time was expired. I'll submit that for the record.

REED: Thank you very much, Senator Gillibrand. Senator Fischer, please?

SEN. DEB FISCHER (R-NE): Thank you, Mr. Chairman. I, too, would like to thank our military men and women for their dedication to this country, for the sacrifices that they and their families make in any theater of war and make every day for us. But our exit from Afghanistan was a disaster, and the missteps that are already outlined had consequences that struck close to home.

[10:40:03]

As a Nebraskan, Corporal Daegan Page was one of the 13 service members killed in action. And we should not forget we have policy discussions here today, but let us remember the human sacrifice. We also left American citizens behind.

General Milley, in your written testimony you state a withdrawal would increase risks of regional instability, the security of Pakistan and its nuclear arsenals, a global rise in violent extremist organizations, our global credibility with allies and partners would suffer, and the narrative of abandoning the Afghans would become widespread. Would you agree that all of these things have happened over the last eight weeks or are currently happening?

MILLEY: I think in the main, yes, Senator. Most of those are probably happening right now.

FISCHER: And I hope that we see in the future military advice having more consideration by the administration on what will happen from what you and General McKenzie have said today.

MILLEY: If I may, Senator, I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that the military voice was heard and it was considered. FISCHER: It was considered but not followed, correct?

MILLEY: Presidents are elected for reasons. They make strategic decisions.

FISCHER: I would say this committee, General, has always stressed that commanders on the ground should be listened to. Would you agree with that?

MILLEY: I would and I would tell you they were listened to. I think there's a difference between us having an opportunity to have a voice and I think it's very important that the military has a voice, but I firmly believe it's in the control of the military and I am required and the military commanders are required to give our best military advice but the decision-makers are not required in any manner, shape or form to follow that advice.

FISCHER: No, they are not. And I agree with you about civilian control of this country. But I think it is also important to realize when we continue to see missteps by an administration that's costing lives.

Secretary Austin, it's been reported right now that the Biden administration reached out to Russia about using Russian bases in the Central Asian nations bordering Afghanistan to the north for our strike assets to fly out of for the -- over-the-horizon counterterrorism missions. Is that true?

AUSTIN: Senator, this is an issue that I believe came up during our conversation that the president had with President Putin, where President Putin offered to offer -- to provide assistance.

FISCHER: But have you reached out to the Russians asking specifically to use bases?

AUSTIN: General Milley just recently had a conversation with his Russian counterpart --

FISCHER: So the reports are true that have been coming out today?

AUSTIN: I can assure you that, you know, we are not seeking Russia's permission to do anything. But I believe, and General Milley can speak for himself, but I believe he asked for clarification on what that offer was.

FISCHER: I have a number of questions which I'll need to get to with General McKenzie about over-the-horizon and the capabilities as we look to the future and what's available there. But I think it's -- what we're seeing in the reports today about asking to use Russian bases, that's just another example that we see the Biden administration -- they've really left us in a terrible position that we have to ask the Russians to be able to protect the United States from terrorists. And we have to ask them to use their installations. Thank you.

AUSTIN: I would re-emphasize, senator, we're not asking the Russians for anything.

FISCHER: But you're negotiating and trying to get these bases to be able to use their installations, because Afghanistan is a landlocked country. And when we have explanations from the military and they give examples for the over-the-horizon and use countries like Yemen and Libya and Somalia, that does not take into consideration that Afghanistan is landlocked. And we have to depend on Pakistan to give us air space to get there.

Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

REED: Thank you, Senator Fischer. Senator Blumenthal, please?

SEN. RICHARD BLUMENTHAL (D-CT): Thanks, Mr. Chairman. And I want to express my hope that this hearing is just the beginning, a first step in an in-depth analysis going not just the last ten weeks or even ten months, but ten years and longer back so that we can match the courage of the men and women of America who have sacrificed during this 20- year war, all of them, and all their families, not just in Afghanistan but around the world.

[10:45:29]

And we owe them, veterans of America, much more than we're giving them right now because they have earned it.

That in-depth analysis looking backward is essential to look forward right now to what is happening in Afghanistan with respect to Americans and our Afghan allies.

After our withdrawal, it was left to an unofficial network or coalition of veterans, NGOs, some government officials. I was involved in an effort through chartered planes and airports outside of Kabul to try to airlift on a makeshift ad hoc basis Americans and Afghan allies still there. They have targets on their back. Their situation is increasingly urgent and desperate.

And I have been frustrated by the lack of someone in charge, lines of authority, a point person. We need an evacuation czar, somebody who will provide a plan and supervise actions so that we can get out of Afghanistan, the Americans that remain there. And I will tell you, we don't have an estimate on the number because nobody is in charge right now.

So let me ask you, Secretary Austin, who at the Department of the Defense has overall responsibility with overseeing the effort to evacuate?

AUSTIN: As you know -- well, first of all, senator, thank you for -- to you and your colleagues for all that you've done to continue to help to get American citizens out of Afghanistan. The State Department -- following the departure of the military, the State Department remained engaged and continued to work to get American citizens out. And as we've seen, some 85 American citizens and 79 legal permanent residents have departed via the Kabul airport. And so that work continues on. The State Department set up a cell to continue this work and develop a mechanism. That cell is headed up by Ambassador Bass. As you may recall, Ambassador Bass was one of the senior counselors on the ground at HKIA as we were conducting the investigation.

I have a general officer that is a part of that cell, and we have reached out to -- or Ambassador Bass has reached out to veterans groups and others who may have information that can help us continue to contact and eventually evacuate American citizens and LPRs.

So, this work continues and we remain committed to continuing that work until we get out as many American citizens that are willing to come out.

BLUMENTHAL: Well, there was a point, and you can call it the eye of the storm, when the Taliban had taken over the country but really wasn't in charge when we could have evacuated a great many more Americans and our Afghan allies. The translators and others, guards, security officers, and I feel that the administration was on notice, in fact, a group of us went to the White House in the spring and urged that there be a plan for evacuation.

And, unfortunately, the withdrawal prevented there from being anybody on the ground. And in the wake of that withdrawal there was a vacuum of leadership and I would hope that there would be more effective action now to put somebody in charge and develop a plan because we know that there are many Americans, whether it's green card holders or citizens or others still there.

In Connecticut we have a resettlement organization called IRIS. (INAUDIBLE) heads it has told us. So, individuals who are still there, more than 40 in Kabul, I'm sure other organizations similarly know of such Americans who are still there.

[10:50:04]

Thank you.

REED: Thank you, Senator Blumenthal. Senator Cotton, please?

SEN. TOM COTTON (R-AR): Thank you.

General Milley, it's your testimony that you recommended 25,000 troops approximately stay in Afghanistan?

MILLEY: As I've said many times before this committee and other committees, I don't share my personal recommendations with the president. But I can tell you personal opinion and my assessment, if that's what you want.

COTTON: Yes, please.

MILLEY: Yes. My assessment was, back in the fall of '20, and it remained consistent throughout, that we should keep a steady state of 2,500, and it could bounce up to 3,500, maybe something like that, in order to move toward a negotiated, gated solution. COTTON: Did you ever present that assessment personally to President Biden?

MILLEY: I don't discuss exactly what my conversations are with a sitting president in the Oval Office but I can tell you what my personal opinion was and I am always candid.

COTTON: General McKenzie, do you share that assessment?

MCKENZIE: Senator, I do share that assessment.

COTTON: Did you ever present that opinion personally to President Biden?

MCKENZIE: I'm not going to be able to comment on those executive discussions.

COTTON: Did General Miller ever present that opinion personally to President Biden?

MCKENZIE: I think we'd best ask him. I believe that his opinion was well heard.

COTTON: Secretary Austin, President Biden last month in an interview with George Stephanopoulos said that no military leader advised him to leave a small troop presence in Afghanistan. Is that true?

AUSTIN: Senator Cotton, I believe that -- well, first of all, I know the president to be an honest and forthright man and secondly --

COTTON: It's a simple question, Secretary Austin. He said no senior military leader advised him to leave small troop presence behind. Is that true or not? Did these officers and General Miller's recommendations get to the president personally?

AUSTIN: Their input was received by the president and considered by the president, for sure. In terms of what they specifically recommended, Senator, as they just said, they're not going to provide what they recommended in confidence.

COTTON: I mean, it sounds to me -- it's shocking to me. It sounds to me like maybe their best military advice was never presented personally to the president of the United States about such a highly consequential matter.

Let me move to another recommendation they were reported to have made.

General Milley, Joe Biden has said that it was the unanimous recommendation of the Joint Chiefs that we not maintain a military presence beyond August 31st. We've heard testimony to that effect today as well. When was that unanimous recommendation sought and presented to the president?

MILLEY: Are you talking about the 31 August --

COTTON: Yes, the 31 August deadline. MILLEY: So, on 25 August, I was asked to make an assessment and provide best military advice --

COTTON: I'm sorry, my time is limited. You gave the answer I needed to hear. August 25th?

MILLEY: Correct.

COTTON: Kabul fell on August 15th.

MILLEY: That's correct.

COTTON: You were not asked before August 25th.

MILLEY: On August 25th, I was asked to provide my best military assessment as to whether we should keep military forces past the 31st.

COTTON: Secretary Austin, was anybody asked before August 25th if we should keep troops at the Kabul airport?

AUTIN: This is -- the president asked us to provide an assessment on whether or not we should extend our presence beyond August 31st. And as General Milley just said, that assessment was made. We tasked him to make that assessment on the 25th and he came back and provided his best military advice.

COTTON: Secretary, Kabul fell on August 15th. It was clear that we had thousands of Americans -- it's clear to members of this committee, we're getting phone calls, that we have thousands of Americans in Afghanistan behind Taliban lines on August 15th and it took ten days to ask these general officers? I suspect the answer might be a little different if you were asking them 16 days out, not 5 days out.

But, again, my time is limited. I want to move on to another matter. President Biden's botched evacuation screwed things up coming and going as it relates to Afghan refugees. We left behind thousands of Afghans who served alongside of us who were vetted and approved to come here. We brought out thousands who really have no particular connection about whom we know nothing and cannot be effectively vetted. You now have female troops who have been assaulted, you have Afghan evacuees committing sex crimes at Ft. McCoy. What are we to make of this? What steps are we taking to ensure that thousands of Afghans about whom we know nothing are not going to be a menace to our troops and our military bases and to the communities into which they have to be released?

[10:55:10]

AUSTIN: Well, Senator, I'm certainly aware of the allegations and I take the allegations very seriously. And I can assure you that our commanders at our bases have what they need to be able to protect our troops and our families that work and live at those bases. And I'm in contact with General VanHerck, the NORTHCOM commander, who has overall responsibility for the operation on a routine basis. And this is an area that he remains sighted on. COTTON: All right. I just got one final question. General Milley, I can only conclude that your advice about staying in Afghanistan was rejected. I'm shocked to learn that your advice wasn't sought until August 25th on staying past the August 31 deadline. I understand that you're the principal military adviser, that you advice, you don't decide, the president decides. But if all this is true, General Milley, why haven't you resigned?

MILLEY: Senator, as a senior military officer, resigning is a really serious thing. It's political act if I'm resigning in protest. My job is to provide advice. My statutory responsibility is to provide legal advice or best military advice to the president, and that's my legal requirement. That's what the law is.

The president doesn't have to agree with that advice. He doesn't have to make those decisions just because we're generals. And it would be an incredible act of political defiance for a commissioned officer to just resign because my advice is not taken.

This country doesn't want generals figuring out what orders we are going to accept and do or not. That's not our job. The principal civilian role in the military is absolutely -- it's critical to this republic.

In addition, just from a personal standpoint, my dad didn't get a choice to resign at Iwo Jima. And those kids there at Abbey Gate, they don't get a choice to resign. And I'm not going to turn my back on them. I'm not going to resign. They can't resign so I'm not going to resign. There's no way. If the orders were illegal, we're in a different place. But if the orders were legal from a civilian authority, I intend to carry them out.

REED: Thank you, Senator Cotton. Senator Hirono, please?

SEN. MAZIE HIRONO (D-HI): Thank you, Mr. Chairman.

Do I understand you correctly, General McKenzie and General Milley, that your personal recommendation was that the troops remain in Afghanistan, a certain number of them, beyond the August 31st deadline?

MILLEY: No, Senator. Our recommendation, this is the Joint Chiefs of Staff, this is myself included, General McKenzie, Major General Donahue, the ground tactical commander of the 82nd airborne division, and Admiral Vasely. Every single of us were in a tank. I brought them up. There was -- Secretary Austin did not show up. There's no political pressure, there's no expectation of consensus. Every one of us evaluated the military conditions at the time on the 25th, and we made a unanimous recommendation that we end the military mission in transition to a diplomatic mission.

HIRONO: Thank you. So, while you temped that you may have had the personal recommendation and I think in your case, General McKenzie, in the fall of 2020, or it might have been General Milley, that by the time we're evacuating everyone, that was not a recommendation that you personally held. MILLEY: Absolutely not. At that point on the 25th of August, no.

HIRONO: Thank you.

MILLEY: At the 25th of August, we recommended that the mission end on the 31st.

HIRONO: Thank you for that clarification.

So, the evacuation was chaotic, and, yes, we are really grateful that our military performed magnificently and evacuating over 120,000 people. But, Secretary Austin, Secretary Blinken acknowledged to my colleagues on the Senate Foreign Relations Committee that no one believed the Afghan government and military could collapse as rapidly as it did, especially in the first weeks of August. However, U.S. forces conducted at least a couple of airstrikes in the middle of July aimed at blunting the Taliban's rapid advance.

So, Secretary Austin, in July, you were aware, the DOD was aware that the situation was deteriorating rapidly by July. Why wasn't action taken to secure the Kabul airport or retake Bagram then?

AUSTIN: Thank you, Senator. You're right, the tempo picked up significantly, the Taliban continued to make advances.