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Senators Grill Top Military Brass On Chaotic Afghanistan Pull Out; Military Testimony On Afghanistan Troop Levels Conflicts With Biden's Statements; Top General Defends Calls To China During Trump Administration; Interview With Rep. Charlie Crist (D-FL) On Conservatorship Abuse Legislation And Debt Ceiling Bill; New York Governor Signs Order To Alleviate Potential Health Care Staffing Shortages. Aired 3:30-4p ET

Aired September 28, 2021 - 15:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:30:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Milley told the Armed Services Committee that he agreed with General McKenzie that 2,500 troops should have stayed in Afghanistan.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. KENNETH FRANK MCKENZIE, U.S. CENTCOM COMMANDER: Senator, again, I won't share my personal recommendation to the President but I will give you my honest opinion and my honest opinion and view shaped my recommendation. I recommended that we maintain 2,500 troops in Afghanistan, and I also recommended earlier in the fall of 2020 that we maintain 4,500 at that time. Those are my personal views.

I also have a view that the withdrawal of those forces would lead inevitably to the collapse of the Afghan military forces and eventually the Afghan government.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK, we have so much to talk about. Let's bring in CNN global affairs analyst Susan Glasser, and retired U.S. Army Brigadier General Peter Zwack. General, I want to start with you. So that's what you heard the General say today, that they agreed that they believed and they told President Biden that 2,500 troops should stay behind in Afghanistan. That is different than what we heard President Biden tell George Stephanopoulos a few weeks ago, so here that is.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC NEWS: So, no one told -- your military advisers did not tell you, no, we should just keep 2,500 troops. It's been a stable situation for the last several years, we can do that. We can continue to do that.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: No, no one said that to me that I can recall.

(END VIDEO CLIP) CAMEROTA: General, how do we make sense of that?

PETER ZWACK, BRIGADIER GENERAL, U.S. ARMY (RET.): This is clearly a really, really complicated situation. The generals gave their best military advice to the President. And the President went on and made for his reasons and his beliefs of a separate decision. I can't get into the "eaches" between them. However, it is troubling that there was this disconnect and it was stated as such.

CAMEROTA: Yes, I mean, it's different, General, just to follow up, it's different than President Biden saying, yes, they did tell me that, I disagreed. I thought that it was getting more dangerous every day, that our troops were there. The Taliban were encroaching and I thought it was time to go. Saying, no, they didn't tell me that. That is just different and I do think that it at some point that demands an explanation.

ZWACK: Yes, I think they're different views, and I guess different perspectives in how they remember it. This is obviously an inner conversation I was not privy do. Obviously, it's all very troubling, and it is in part, I think, at the root of what landed us in this really, really difficult situation in August.

CAMEROTA: Susan, I thought that today's hearing was really fascinating because the generals didn't say no comment or I can't get into that. They pretty much gave details that we didn't know about. Here is General Milley talking about what has come out in the Bob Woodward book about how he was so concerned about President Trump's mental state and how erratically he was behaving after he lost the presidential election that General Milley felt compelled to call his Chinese counterparts to try to appease or assuage, I guess, their anxieties. Here is that moment.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEN. MARK MILLEY, JOINT CHIEFS CHAIRMAN: She was concerned and made very or made various personal references characterizing the president. I explained to her that the president is the sole nuclear launch authority and he doesn't launch them alone. And that I am not qualified to determine the mental health of the president of the United States.

The specific purpose of the October and January calls were to generate or were generated by concerning intelligence which caused us to believe the Chinese were worried about an attack on them by the United States. I am certain that President Trump did not intend to attack the Chinese, and it is my directed responsibility and it was my directed responsibility by the secretary to convey that intent to the Chinese.

My task at that time was to deescalate. My message, again, was consistent. Stay calm, steady, and deescalate, we are not going to attack you.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: Susan, he also interestingly said, the Defense Secretary at the time, Mark Esper, knew about those phone calls as did Secretary of State Pompeo, your thoughts.

SUSAN GLASSER, CNN GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, that's right, I think it's very valuable, obviously, to have this kind of Congressional hearing where we now have this sworn testimony under oath in part because there have been so many reports and so much confusion.

[15:35:00]

You know, I think General Milley stated pretty clearly something very alarming, which is that in this uncertainty after the election, there were these phone calls with his Chinese counterpart, with the Speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi who is asking him about the mental state of the President of the United States, these are needless to say not normal conversations.

But I was struck by the fact that General Milley was very insistent that there was nothing improper. Remember, there's been some very, very overheated rhetoric from Republicans suggesting that there was something, a gross abuse of his office in having that conversation.

I think he was very factual, but very firm in saying, look, this is a conversation that was widely known, the transcript was shared. He made a point that I haven't heard before, which is not only did Mark Esper know about the first phone call but the second phone call he shared immediately with Mark Meadows, who was then the Chief of Staff of the White House and Mike Pompeo.

My reporting has shown that that was part of what Milley referred to as "land the plane" phone calls after the election because his own advisers, Meadows, and Pompeo, were so concerned about Donald Trump and the uncertainty and instability of the U.S. government at that time.

CAMEROTA: Susan, one more question about your reporting because you have covered General Milley so much, there was this riveting moment where Congresswoman Blackburn was trying to basically, I think out him for talking to some reporters and he wasn't shying away from admitting it. So, listen to this moment.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SEN. MARSHA BLACKBURN (R-TN): General Milley, yes or no to this, did you talk to Bob Woodward or Robert Costa for their book "Peril."

MILLEY: Woodward, yes, Costa, no.

BLACKBURN: Did you talk to Carol Leonnig and Philip Rucker for their book "I Alone Can I Fix It"?

MILLEY: Yes.

BLACKBURN: Did you talk to Michael Bender for his book is "Frankly, We Did Win This Election -- The Inside Story of How Trump Lost."

MILLEY: Yes

BLACKBURN: And were you accurately represented in these books?

MILLEY: I haven't read any of the books.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CAMEROTA: I mean Senator Blackburn I think was going for a gotcha there, but it didn't seem as though General Milley was taking the bait. What did you think, Susan?

GLASSER: Well, it's very interesting, and frankly, it's very unusual in Washington. I wish there were more high-level sources in Washington who would testify under oath and simply admit that they spoke to journalists as the Chairman of The Joint Chiefs have just done, and, you know, so that takes a lot of the air out of the gotcha game.

In my observation, General Milley is someone who is not afraid as you saw to speak his mind but has a very, very firm view that there was something extraordinary and threatening that was occurring in the country in the last six months of Donald Trump's presidency.

That presented a unique set of decisions and challenges for any Chairman of the Joint Chiefs. Probably no chairman had ever faced that set of challenges that Mark Milley did in those few months. And again, the Afghanistan withdrawal is very interesting when you're also talking about it in the context of Trump.

And one other thing he said today that's very important, Alisyn, he was very critical and very pointed in making explicit how flawed he and the other generals viewed Trump's withdrawal agreement with the Taliban that was signed in February of 2020. He said that the Taliban essentially were held to nothing and the U.S. was held to a different standard and that that was the context for what we just saw in the last few months.

CAMEROTA: General Zwack, I only have a few seconds left. What was your big take away from what you heard today?

ZWACK: Yes, so I think to get right down into it, and I'm thinking of course of existential things here. General Milley, we should be really appreciative as Americans that our Chairman of the Joint Chiefs who is also the face to senior militaries include those of potentially adversaries, including China, and Russia, has a link with this counterpart. There is nothing unpatriotic or treasonous about them talking. These are nuclear tipped countries, could go into a crisis really fast, I think he did absolutely the right thing.

I have been on these staffs. I have seen them have these talks. They're frank, but eye to eye or, you know, voice to voice and critical in this really, really delicate situation.

The last thing, look at what was their perspective of the United States on 7 January? Something had to be said. I mean, it looked like we had lost our moorings and he went out to deescalate, calm things down, and that, I believe, is his job as our senior military face to both our potential adversaries also to our friends.

CAMEROTA: Susan Glasser, Peter Zwack, thank you, both, very much.

[15:40:00]

OK, now to coronavirus, new vaccine restrictions in effect for health care workers in New York, and that's moved many to get the shot but some say they won't comply. They're willing to lose their jobs, so we're going to speak to a hospital official about what's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CAMEROTA: Right now, on Capitol Hill, a Senate judiciary subcommittee is holding a hearing on so called toxic conservatorships and the need for reform.

[15:45:00]

This comes just one day before a court hearing could determine the fate of Britney Spears' conservatorship. Britney wants out of this arrangement, and her father has petitioned the court to end that 13- year conservatorship.

With us now is Democratic Congressman Charlie Crist of Florida, he has introduced a new bill to help combat conservatorship abuse inspired by the Britney Spears controversy. Congressman, thank you very much for being here. What was it about the Britney Spears case that got your attention and caused you to jump in on this cause?

REP. CHARLIE CRIST (D-FL): Well, just the abuse that was involved in the conservatorship with her father. And the fact that I think the most heinous part of it was that an IUD had to stay inside of her. She couldn't make the decision about that herself.

That really stood out to me. And I thought she gave very compelling testimony when she was brave enough to talk about what was happening to her in this conservatorship. And if it could happen to somebody like Britney Spears, it can happen to anybody in our country. And that's what really spurred us on to do this legislation.

CAMEROTA: That's such a great point. Hers is such a high-profile case it's gotten so much attention but how widespread do you think toxic conservatorships are?

CRIST: I think far too widespread. You know, I represent a district in Tampa Bay in Florida, and, you know, we get calls about seniors that have conservatorships or guardianships as we call them in the Sunshine State. And people are getting abused all the time. So regrettably, I think it's a rampant problem. But with the passage of our legislation, we'll have an opportunity to really stem the tide on that and help people out so they don't get caught in a situation like Britney had to.

CAMEROTA: What's the biggest thing that your legislation would change about these?

CRIST: The biggest thing is that it allows for somebody who's in a conservatorship or guardianship to appeal to a court to get that private conservatorship extinguished and get a public one appointed, which would then also have caseworkers to give it oversight so that this kind of thing can't happen again.

CAMEROTA: While I have you, Congressman, I do want to ask you because you're on the House Appropriations Committee and that's the committee responsible for funding the federal government. You know that there's -- last night, Senate Republicans blocked the motion to fund government, and so this Thursday night at midnight, the government might shut down. How likely do you think that is?

CRIST: I'm an optimist, and I don't think that is going to happen. I don't think we want that to happen. Obviously, I think it was terribly irresponsible on behalf of the Republicans in the Senate to do what they did last night. That's not right. This should not be a political issue. This is an American issue about supporting our government, supporting our budget, and they did the wrong thing last night. But I think we can get to good before Thursday.

CAMEROTA: And if we don't, what are the real-world consequences?

CRIST: Well, let's all hope that we do.

CAMEROTA: Meanwhile, we have just been reporting that Speaker Nancy Pelosi is now considering separating the two bills that we've talked so much about, the $1 trillion infrastructure bipartisan bill from the 3.5 social safety net reconciliation bill. As I'm sure you know, your progressive colleagues would very much like those to be in tandem, but we're hearing that Speaker Pelosi is open to now separating them. Do you think that they should be separated?

CRIST: I think they're both very important pieces of legislation. I don't care how it is that they pass. I think both of them must pass. That's my perspective. I think that we need to do what's right for the American people. Clearly, we need new infrastructure across our country, new roads, new bridges, new rail, better ports, better seaports, but I also think that we have additional things we need to address.

For example, in Florida, the restoration of the Everglades can be part of the $3.5 trillion package. So, both of them are very important to me. I don't care if they're together or apart so long as both of them pass.

CAMEROTA: But so, you think that the infrastructure bill will pass on Thursday?

CRIST: I do think so. I do. Because we need it. America needs it, and the American people deserve it.

CAMEROTA: What about the debt ceiling? You know, Republicans have said that they are not going to help Democrats suspend it or raise it.

CRIST: Well, we need to have it, and the debt ceiling has to be risen in order for us to be able to afford the things that we need to pay for, for the American people. My God, we're in the middle of a pandemic. If now is not the time to help the American people, I don't know when is. So, I think Republicans need to get with the program and do what's right.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Charlie Crist, thank you for deal with all these issues with us today.

CRIST: Thank you, Alisyn, my pleasure.

CAMEROTA: OK, a showdown over vaccine mandates in New York. Hospitals are bracing for potential staff shortages for people who still refuse to be vaccinated. So, we'll talk about what to do next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:50:00]

CAMEROTA: As of today, all healthcare workers at New York hospitals and nursing homes must get vaccinated. Hospitals across the state were bracing for potential staffing shortages because of this mandate. But hundreds of vaccinations in the final hours before the deadline seems to have staved off that scenario.

Joining us now is Kathleen Parrinello, the Chief Operating Officer at Strong Memorial Hospital in Rochester, New York. Ms. Parrinello, thank you so much for being here. Did you see a spate of vaccinations in the past 48 hours?

KATHLEEN PARRINELLO, COO, STRONG MEMORIAL HOSPITAL, UNIV. OF ROCHESTER MEDICAL CENTER: Yes, we sure did. And I am so pleased to say that, as of today, 100 percent of our employees are either have one dose, a first dose of their vaccination or have an approved exemption.

[15:55:00]

And we had only less than 2 percent of our employees had to end employment with us last night. So, we were pleased and whereas we were disappointed to see them go, we think vaccination is extremely important. It is important to protect our co-workers, to protect our families, to protect our patients. So, we're really pleased with where we have ended up.

CAMEROTA: When you say 2 percent -- yes, but when you say 2 percent, are we talking hundreds of people? Dozens of people? How many is that?

PARRINELLO: We have 16,000 individuals in our hospital. So less than two percent of those, less than a 150 people ended their employment with us yesterday.

CAMEROTA: OK, and will that you lead you to staffing shortages, that you'll need to backfill somehow?

PARRINELLO: Yes, well that's a complicated issue. You know like every other hospital in the country we had a higher rate of vacancy at Strong Memorial Hospital this year than we've had in previous years. So, we entered this situation with a high number if vacancies which we've been actively recruiting for. Governor Hochul today issued an executive order that allows some flexibility in recruitment which will be very helpful. We can now recruit individuals from other states who have licenses

across many professional groups from other states. they can begin working immediately in our hospitals. So that will be helpful as many of our traveling companies that we contract for help with do bring us people from out of state.

CAMEROTA: I heard you say that some of the hundreds of employees who up until the past 48 hours hadn't gotten vaccinated at your hospital, they're still very scared. What were they scared of?

PARRINELLO: Yes, well, the vaccine is new, and so many individuals unlike other vaccines they've received which have been around for years, this was a new vaccine. So that was frightening for them. And I think also, the discussion about the new technology, the mRNA, was confusing for some people. And that caused them to be a little leery of getting it.

You know, fortunately, we have clinician scientists here at the medical center who participated in vaccine trials and they were just wonderful in terms of meeting with our staff, one on one, and in small groups to help educate people as to the safety and efficacy of these vaccines.

CAMEROTA: Yes, and I heard you say, that you had to do a lot of reassuring in the past days. Can you just tell us what that sounds like? I mean how did you get people past their anxiety?

PARRINELLO: Well, again, I think we used trusted sources. We were able to have many of our physician leaders and clinical nursing leaders who had knowledge about vaccine and have been vaccinated themselves. And they reassured our employees,

We had 85 percent of our employees got vaccinated right away. As soon as the vaccine came out, we provided it through the course of the late winter and spring. And 85 percent got vaccinated right away. And those individuals were very helpful talking to other members of our staff and telling them that it went fine.

They might have been a little sore or feverish particularly after a second dose, but they did well. And I think that was very, very helpful, as well as talking to some our clinicians who participated in conducting these vaccine trials.

CAMEROTA: I mean, one of the -- I guess ironic things from those of us not in the healthcare system, it's that these are people, the nurses and doctors are the people wo saw people so gravely ill. And so, they were more afraid of the new technology than they were of getting COVID and it just seemed, you know, counterintuitive.

PARRINELLO: Yes, and I will say that our physicians and many of our nurses got vaccinated very early. You know, hospitals are full of many other professionals and support workers, and so we did a lot of reassurance for a lot of those individuals that don't necessarily have medical or nursing backgrounds?

CAMEROTA; And so, bottom line, from where you sit today, would you say that vaccine mandates are effective?

PARRINELLO: I would say, yes, they are effective, and I say that because I think vaccination is so important in this country, in the world today. And many individuals got vaccinated enthusiastically because they wanted to. There were others that I think the pressure of getting vaccinated or having to end employment at a place where they like to work, did change people's minds I think in these last couple of days.

CAMEROTA: Kathleen Parrinello, really appreciate you sharing your experience with us.

PARRINELLO: Thanks for having me.

CAMEROTA: Thanks for being here.

So, we're learning new details about then President Trump's mysterious visit to Walter Reed Medical Center, this was back in November of 2019. In her new book, the former first lady's chief of staff, Stephanie Grisham, heavily implies that the trip was for a colonoscopy. She says the President Trump stayed silent because he did not want then Vice President Mike Pence to be in power.