Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Less Than 48 Hours for Lawmakers to Avert Government Shutdown; Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D-CA) Speaks amid Democratic In-Fighting; New York City Public School Workers Must Have COVID Vaccine By Friday. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired September 29, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:00:00]

ERICA HILL, CNN NEWSROOM: Good morning. I'm Erica Hill.

JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: And I'm Jim Sciutto.

The clock is ticking fast. Less than 48 hours from now, the U.S. government will shut down unless Congress acts. The deadline is midnight Thursday. The consequences, enormous potentially, this as the president's economic agenda is hanging by a thread and as the country is on the verge, if it goes that far, of defaulting on its debt.

HILL: It's tough to understate the massive implications this could have for the U.S. economy, really, at every angle. A shutdown means government services across the board would close, default could send market spinning, cause financial hardships for millions of Americans.

Meantime, as everyone is watching to see what happens back at the White House, President Biden today, we know, scrapping a planned trip to Chicago, planning instead or choosing rather to stay behind in Washington doing his best to salvage his economic agenda, working behind the scenes, as his own party is very publicly threatening to really derail it all.

CNN Chief Congressional Correspondent Manu Raju is up on Capitol Hill, White House Correspondent John Harwood also with us.

Manu, let's start with you. First, we know that the Senate could vote on a short-term government funding bill today to avert a shutdown. When could that vote take place?

MANU RAJU, CNN CHIEF CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: We do expect it could happen as soon as today. They do need an agreement from both sides in the Senate, all hundred senators actually to agree to allow for a vote to avoid a government shutdown.

Now, we do expect that to happen probably today because Democrats have removed the most controversial thing in there, which is to raise the national debt ceiling. Initially, the Democrats wanted to avoid a shutdown. That deadline is Thursday, midnight, 11:59 P.M., is when the money runs out for the federal government, and then that mid-October deadline, to avoid the first ever debt default.

Republicans have refused to give any votes to raise the national debt ceiling. And as a result, it's unclear how they'll resolve that. So, essentially, what Democrats have agreed to do is punt that issue and deal with it at a later date, moving closer and closer to that potentially catastrophic deadline by mid-October.

So that is uncertain how that will be dealt with yet, but, ultimately, there almost certainly will not be a government shutdown. How they get out of the default, a major question as both sides are pressing ahead on their own strategies, Republicans saying Democrats have got to do it on their own. Democrats demanding help from Republicans.

And that's significant because under the current process Democrats are moving, they need 60 votes in the U.S. Senate to move ahead, and that means ten Republicans need to break ranks. That's not going to happen at the moment. So, where it ends up still remains a major question here.

SCIUTTO: You have got the shutdown. It seems like they have a plan for that. They're working on a plan for the default. But the other issue, of course, is the president's legislative agenda beginning with infrastructure. And, John Harwood, we've heard that Senator Kyrsten Sinema, she is headed back to the White House today trying to thread this needle, right, and get to a number on the larger budget deal that everybody can be on the same page. Basic question, is there progress?

JOHN HARWOOD, CNN WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: I believe there is progress. What I'm hearing from both the White House and Capitol Hill is the belief that these repeated meetings with Sinema and Manchin are making some headway. No concrete specifics. We don't have visibility into what exactly they're talking to. But, generally speaking, presidents don't have people back to the White House over and over again if nothing is happening.

Still a long way to go, and it's complicated because what you have is this negotiation within the House Democratic caucus on the infrastructure bill versus reconciliation that cannot be settled until they get agreement from the other side of Capitol Hill from those two holdout senators, Manchin and Sinema. That's Biden's job, is to try to bring those people along so that they can reach some global accommodation that would allow them to move forward.

And I think there is some belief that it is possible that they're bringing them into a zone where that might be possible. But, of course, as Manu has indicated countless times over and over, there are many on Capitol Hill who have voiced frustration, including Speaker Nancy Pelosi and members of the progressive caucus, have expressed frustration with not knowing what the bottom lines are.

Joe Biden may know more about the bottom lines than we do or than they do, but pretty soon they're going to have to lay those on the table if they are going to avoid an outright split within the Democratic caucus.

[10:05:06] HILL: Yes, everybody anxious to see something late on the table there.

Manu, I want to bring you back in. I think you were just able to grab House Majority Leader Steny Hoyer. Any updates, any details?

RAJU: Well, yes. They just had a private meeting with their whip team. Those are the people that actually tried to get votes over key issues in these meetings. They discussed that debt ceiling increase. In fact, I'm told from sources that Nancy Pelosi expressed some frustration at some moderate Democrats who have voted, who have vowed to actually thwart a Democratic effort to try to move the debt ceiling on their own as soon as today. So, that's still a source of tension within the Democratic caucus.

Then there's that separate vote we're just talking about, how to deal with that infrastructure bill tomorrow and whether they will have the votes to move ahead, and will progressive's threats derail that because that larger social safety net package is not moving forward.

Now, when Steny Hoyer just royal walked out of this meet meeting, I said is, that Thursday vote still happening. And he said he is hopeful that they're moving ahead. He said they are still working to try to get the votes.

So, a question about that, because the progressives have threatened to -- called for that vote to be delayed until the larger deal is negotiated between moderates. And they signed off on it along with the White House. But at the moment, Democratic leaders pressing ahead to Thursday, seeing if they can get the progressives behind that, send that infrastructure bill to Joe Biden's desk. Still a question about whether they can get there, but the Democratic leaders are trying to get their caucus in line, guys.

SCIUTTO: Wow, victory from the jaws of defeat? We'll see. John Harwood, Manu Raju, thanks very much to both of you.

Joining us now to discuss, Doug Heye, he's a Republican strategist, former Communications Director for the Republican National Committee. Doug, always good to have you on.

DOUG HEYE, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: There's an interesting dynamic here, right, because particularly on infrastructure, you actually have Republican support, right? I mean, 19 Republican senators voted for it. And you do have a lot of Republican House members who said straight up -- I mean, Adam Kinzinger, for instance, saying they don't want a government shutdown either.

Now, there's a lot in the math there because if you lose enough Democrats, right, you're not going to get enough Republicans to make up the difference.

But I wonder, do you see a scenario here where Republican votes actually help get some of these things over the finish line? HEYE: Sure, on policy, potentially so, especially on infrastructure, if we're able to get to that point this week. As you know, Jim, I worked in House leadership for 2.5 years where we had a lot of volatility with our Republican members, an emerging group called the freedom caucus. Our struggle was always to get -- which is what Democrats are dealing with now, getting to 218. That's the number of votes you need to have a majority to move anything forward.

Democrats' mission right now is to get to 218. They've got their own fractures. They can peel off some Republican votes. That will help on the initial infrastructure bill. Beyond that, they're going to be on their own.

HILL: It's interesting, we're getting some news out of a private whip meeting, and Cedric Richmond talking about the looming congressional baseball game, and using that as a metaphor about how important it is to play as a team, right, is our understanding, and to come together.

When you were dealing with that in your time in Congress, Democrats and Republicans are a little different, as we know, when it comes to coming together, even in terms of a united message sometimes. But how difficult is it to find that unity when you're dealing with a situation like that this playing out so publicly?

HEYE: Yes. Phil Mattingly tweeted earlier that the best thing Democrats could do is have Cedric Richmond pitch and hit in the baseball game tonight because he would always be a Republican killer. But I go back to a House Republican conference meeting when I heard a Republican member, a freshman Republican member, say, I didn't come here to be part of any team.

And the reality is we see this on the Republican side with the freedom caucus, we see it on the Democratic side, which I would call the House Democratic freedom caucus, is the incentive structure is to blow up the legislative process. It's why we talk about AOCs and MTGs. We don't talk about Gus Bilirakis or Peter Welch. A Republican and Democrat will accomplish things.

And so the dynamic that we're in right now reminds me a lot of 2013 when Ted Cruz was urging people House freedom caucus members to stick it to their leadership. Bernie Sanders is playing that same role right now for Democrats.

SCIUTTO: It's a great point, because we imagine this eternal fighting is new, but we've seen it. We've seen it play. By the way, it led to a shutdown.

I want to ask you this because the Republican calculation here seems to be let Democrats stew in their own juices, right, in effect here and do damage their party. And, by the way, that's true. Voters claimed the party in power.

I just wonder the game of chicken going on here, does that win over Republican voters? I mean, is it a smart calculation on the part of Republicans? HEYE: Well, it certainly plays to their base. And I go back -- there's an old Frank Sinatra song, I've heard that song before, you're on your own, figure this out. That was Nancy Pelosi in 2018 when she told the Republican Congress and a Republican president, we're not going to help you.

[10:10:02]

The reality in politics is, if this is right, it's wrong, it's up to interpretation, obviously. But when your opponent is setting themselves on fire, you don't give them any water.

HILL: Real quickly before I let you go, how do you see this ultimately playing out?

HEYE: I don't think we're going to have a default. Everybody knows what a disaster that would be economically for the country, also globally. We could have a short-term shutdown. Remember, we've shut down the government for hours or day or two at a time without real implications. It's when you get to a week or two that you have a real problem.

Infrastructure, we'll see.

SCIUTTO: We'll see. Listen, it's such a good point because we've talked about before. And, by the way, there are enormous implications of that but are they that dumb? I mean, we'll see. Doug Heye, thanks very much.

HEYE: Congress, never bet on them.

HILL: Yes.

SCIUTTO: Still ahead, top Pentagon officials are on Capitol Hill right now facing more questions from lawmakers.

HILL: Plus, as employer vaccine mandates go into effect across the country, unvaccinated Americans really feeling the pressure as thousands are getting their shots. Some others are now facing unemployment.

And just a bit later, Britney Spears has called her conservatorship abusive, exploitive, compared her life to one of a sex trafficking. Today, that conservatorship could end. What's at stake, ahead.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:15:00]

SCIUTTO: House Speaker Nancy Pelosi moments ago left a meeting with Democratic lawmakers on their ongoing negotiation. She's giving an update now. Let's listen in.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): So we had a very productive meeting. Today is the baseball game. So our hero for baseball is Cedric Richmond. Cedric Richmond is a very important appointment of President Biden to his administration, and he came and spoke baseball using those analogies, which are very, shall we say, clear to talk about where we need to be. And it was actually -- well, we can go on if you want to talk baseball later.

The fact is that we're at a place. I spent a good deal of time in the meeting talking about the debt ceiling because we have to get that done. It would be about $15 trillion in household wealth would go down the drain. Unemployment would go up to 9 percent. It would double. It would be increased interest on car loans, credit card bills, mortgages, anything you're paying interests on. So this is something that has to be done. The fact that the Republicans are being so irresponsible is no surprise, but nonetheless, disappointing as always. So in any event, that's what we spent most of our time on, the debt ceiling.

In terms of giving people an update as to where we are, the president is negotiating, as is well known -- I keep reading it in the Daily Metropolitan Journal about that, that it is what is happening. We're hoping we can come to a place. It's not about a dollar amount. The dollar amount, as the president has said, is zero. This bill will be paid for. It's about what are the values that we share and how we prioritize them? And that's the place we will go.

I have calmness because I have confidence in our House Democrats. They care about America's working families universally. And the vision that the president has put forth is one that we share. We're the Democratic Party. We have our differences of opinion. We're not a lockstep rubber stamp party. Who would want?

RAJU: Do you believe the progressives' threat, that they're saying half the caucus will vote against this if the bill back better bill isn't moved first, it's not going to move first before Thursday? Do you buy that threat?

PELOSI: What I tried to describe to them in there in terms of time. Up until the beginning of last week, we were 3.5. I'm very proud of our members. The committees that have jurisdiction, which the 13 acted in a timely fashion to reach the September 15th goal, which everybody says is impossible, but they did. And then we had on last Saturday the plan that we would give sufficient notice so the budget committee would present their proposals, and that's what happened.

But in the meantime, there was this, oh, my God, we can't go to that number. Well, that completely sets off the timetable. So, I think that if we come to a place where we have agreement in legislative language, not just principle, in legislative language that the president supports, has to meet his standard because that's what we're supporting, then I think we'll come together.

I don't speak for them and I think they've spoken beautifully for the priorities that we have in the bill. But because we're at the mercy of the Senate and its customs and its parliamentarian and its rules, we can't bring something to the floor without the approval of the parliamentarian in order to preserve the 51 votes.

REPORTER: Speaker Pelosi, if progressives are still threatening to block this bill by the end of today, can you still move forward with the vote tomorrow?

PELOSI: We take it one step at a time.

[10:20:01]

You're the one that started this.

REPORTER: Yes, (INAUDIBLE) be okay. So, two-part question, I just want to clarify what you just said. Legislative language, you want legislative language on reconciliation before you bring up the infrastructure bill, right? That's what you just --

PELOSI: As we're doing it simultaneously.

REPORTER: Yes, okay. On the debt limit, there are clearly some issues on passing the standalone today. Are those solved? Are you convinced they will be solved?

PELOSI: We'll proceed in a way -- we have to get it done. So let's -- what I always like to do is what is it we must do? Now, let's engineer back from that, and that's what we do.

RAJU: Do Manchin and Sinema need to sign off on this legislative language by tomorrow for this infrastructure vote to move forward?

PELOSI: We're not talking about a timetable on them. One of the things that I said that I can't keep a commitment that the Senate has made impossible to do, but what I've also said is we're not proceeding with anything that doesn't have agreement between the House and the Senate, and that's where we're working. I mean, we could pass a bill any time. We can pass a bill any time. If it doesn't have the support of the Senate, then where are we? We have to have something that has both sides. And the interest of the American people, first and foremost, what it means to them, as well as it's time-saving just to do it together.

REPORTER: You're not ruling out possibly delaying the vote tomorrow?

PELOSI: We will have -- I said we'll have the vote tomorrow. I'm not calling you a troublemaker, but instigator over here working for the -- the American people has clearly stated what the prerogatives are of the speaker of the House.

REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE) that you can delay it without -- unilaterally?

PELOSI: Well, the speaker has that authority, but I want it to pass. So, what we wanted to do is to pass tomorrow. And anything that's (INAUDIBLE) the hand of the speaker helps pass the bill.

RAJU: Would it helpful if Manchin and Sinema were to lay out their demands for your caucus?

PELOSI: (INAUDIBLE). They're having a values discussion with the president of the United States. I know you saw ads and all the rest, one, demands and split and all that, but this is much more amicable than you would think just watching television or reading the paper. REPORTER: Have you spoken to the president today or will you later today?

PELOSI: Yes.

REPORTER: Yes, you've already spoken with him?

PELOSI: I really do not reveal the president's schedule. But I have every confidence that we will be sharing our views on it.

RAJU: How much closer are they to an agreement with the Senate right now? Did the president indicate how his talks have gone?

PELOSI: You'll have to talk to him about that. --

REPORTER: (INAUDIBLE) might not advance in the Senate. Why and get mad at members, why twist the arms of moderates if this is not going to move anywhere?

PELOSI: What are you talking about? We have a responsibility to uphold -- to lift up the full faith and credit of the United States of America. That's what we have to do. These members have all voted for this last week. So if they're concerned about how it might be in an ad, it's already in an ad. So, let's give every confidence every step of the way that we will do that.

We cannot predicate our actions in the House on what could happen in the Senate. We can when we're coming to agreement on a bill. But in terms of this, I have no patience for people not voting for this.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Thanks everyone.

RAJU: Thank you.

SCIUTTO: Speaker of the House Nancy Pelosi giving an update on negotiations within the Democratic party on a number of steps they're going forward. They're expressing confidence and progress, including in the negotiations ongoing between President Biden and the two holdout Democratic senators, you might say, on the larger budget bill, Sinema and Manchin.

We also got this update just moments ago, and that is the Senate majority leader, Chuck Schumer, said Democrats will be introducing a continuing resolution to keep the government funded, that is, to avoid the first of the challenges, a government shutdown. And he says that the Senate could take up action on that as early as today. We'll be watching. Erica, as you know, that's just one of several challenges Democratic leaders have to handle right now.

HILL: Yes, that's for sure.

Also I want to get you at home an update on where we stand in terms of COVID. Here in New York City, public school employees now have until Friday to get their COVID vaccine. Mayor Bill de Blasio telling CNN this morning that the city is prepared for potential staffing shortages. (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOHN BERMAN, CNN ANCHOR: What are you going to do about the teachers who don't comply, when they don't show up? How are you going to handle that shortage?

MAYOR BILL DE BLASIO (D-NEW YORK CITY, NY): We have a lot of substitute teachers, a lot of young people in particular who want to go into the teaching profession, who are ready, willing and able, who are vaccinated, who are going to take those roles immediately.

Now, look, I want to say to any teacher, if at first they don't get vaccinated and then they think better of it, they are ready to do the right thing, of course, we're going to welcome them back.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

[10:25:05]

SCIUTTO: CNN Chief Medical Correspondent Dr. Sanjay Gupta joins us now. All right, we're seeing vaccine mandates in a number of places now. What is the expected impact of this for New York teachers? I mean, are we beginning to see that these mandates move people, that they work?

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I think there's pretty good evidence on that. We've seen that among private sector organizations, but also among health care workers. I mean, people are often surprised. We've talked about this before, that there are a significant percentage of health care workers that don't get these vaccines. So, it's not just a particular group of people.

Let me show you something about the flu shot. I think this is always instructive. Again, talking about health care workers, flu shot going back to the 2019-2020 flu season. Overall vaccination rates about 81 percent, which, again, that might surprise people when they hear that. This is among health care workers. But look at the breakdown to your question about mandates versus not. In those places that had a requirement, closer to 94, 95 percent, versus 70 percent if there wasn't.

So, it does make a difference. It can take time, as Mayor de Blasio was saying, sometimes people will take a little longer to get their vaccinations as a result of this, but it does make a difference.

HILL: There's also this new polling out which I found really interesting from Axios looking at parents. 44 percent of parents with children ages 5 to 11 say they are likely to get their kids vaccinated once that vaccine is authorized for the age group. I mean, it's fairly even split as we look at that, but well below half. Are you surprised at all by those numbers, Sanjay?

GUPTA: No, I'm not surprised, in part because, whenever these polling numbers are done before the vaccine is actually authorized for a particular group of people, they always are more hesitant in terms of people actually being willing to get it. So, they do change once there's some authorization.

But I think it's safe to say, if you look overall at the breakdown of this country, first of all, we're talking about 90 percent of the population, roughly 5 to 11-year-olds. They're less likely to get sick, they are less likely to become infected, less likely to spread. So, I think that's probably adding to this hesitation as well.

I think what people are starting to hear increasingly though is that even if kids are less likely to get sick, they can, and even if they have mild illness, those symptoms can last a long time, these sort of long-hauler-type symptoms even in young people, studies coming out about that. And also that children can be a source spread, even though less likely, it can be an issue.

What we're talking about is, again, 9 percent of the population, if only half of them get it, that's 4.5 percent of the population. So, it may not make a huge difference to the country overall but certainly within schools and within those particular communities.

SCIUTTO: All right. This poll had some concerning results on public trust in President Biden to provide accurate COVID-19 info. Now, 45 percent of those polls say they trust the president. That's down 13 points, from 58 percent in January. Why? Why do you think that is?

GUPTA: I think that there's been times when the messages have been a bit muddled. I mean, talking about boosters most recently, people saw this play out. This always plays out. But people don't often get to see it, hearing from the White House first that everyone is going to get boosters, FDA saying not so fast, CDC having their advisory committee give a different message than what the director gave. I think it confuses people to some extent, even among health care workers. I've been talking to a lot of my colleagues about this.

I think also part of what's going on now is that people are sensing this is less of a risk for them overall, even though the numbers are high, still, they are coming down, same with hospitalizations. But I think people have moved on to some extent from thinking about this as big a risk, and that might also be undermining some of the confidence. They say, well, not so much a risk and we're hearing about mandates, how do we reconcile these two things can lead to an erosion of trust.

HILL: Dr. Sanjay Gupta, we don't have to worry about trusting you, my friend. That's the good news. I appreciate it, as always. Thank you.

GUPTA: I'm here for you. Thank you.

HILL: We know you are.

Just ahead, top Pentagon officials now back on Capitol Hill today, this time in front of House lawmakers. They have their chance to question officials about the evacuation from Afghanistan. We are live, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[10:30:00]