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Interview With Rep. Barbara Lee (D-CA); Infrastructure Negotiations. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired September 30, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:00]

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Top of the hour. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

In just a few minutes, we expect the House to vote on a stopgap bill to avert a government shutdown by extending government funding through December 3. That is expected to pass.

But a vote on infrastructure is still up in the air at this hour. House Speaker Pelosi maintains that she will hold a vote today. At least that's the last we heard. But whether or not the reconciliation package is tied to it is still up in the air. And we still don't know.

After being tight-lipped for weeks, moderate Senator Joe Manchin just floated a new price tag for what he's comfortable with on that package. And that is $1.5 trillion. That number is not going to satisfy progressives, who have said that they will fight tooth and nail to get everything they want in the $3.5 trillion and everything paid for in that package.

So they want child care credits, maternity leave, universal pre-K, just to name a few.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

QUESTION: Can that be done with a $1.5 trillion reconciliation package?

REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): Well, look, there's no number. I don't have a number. I don't have a number.

QUESTION: But that's the Manchin -- the number that Manchin is putting out.

JAYAPAL: Well, that's what he tells you. But that's not what ultimately is going to be the package.

[14:10:03]

QUESTION: That's what he told -- he said to Schumer.

JAYAPAL: Well, whatever. I don't have an offer in front of me.

My number is 3.5. Our number is 3.5. Somebody has a different offer, then they can put in on the table. You don't negotiate against yourself. If you go to buy a house, you don't put down an offer and then before an offer has even been put down on the table, suddenly say, OK, I'm willing to go down another $100,000.

Anybody done that? I don't think so. That's not how we negotiate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: OK, so the ball seems to be in progressives' court at the moment. Will they counteroffer? Or if this does go to a vote today, will they actually vote no on the bipartisan infrastructure plan and deliver a major defeat to President Biden?

Let's ask our experts.

Joining us live, we have CNN chief congressional correspondent Manu Raju and CNN chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins.

Manu, what's the latest? What's happening at this hour?

MANU RAJU, CNN SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, at the moment, Nancy Pelosi has not said that she will delay that vote, the infrastructure vote, in which it very much appears that progressives have enough support to sink that plan, if it were to come to a vote.

I'm told that she's still making phone calls, trying to see if you can peel off individual progressives, even though some members of her own leadership team this morning urged or said that they should not go ahead with this vote.

But the reason why they're having so much problem is a debate -- division within the caucus, the Democrats who are in the left and the ones in the center, about not just the policy, which are significant differences, but about the strategy and the timing.

Joe Manchin, you're right, revealed that $1.5 trillion number. That is far less than what the liberals want, which is $3.5 trillion. The liberals want Manchin to agree on something and have actually a passage of that larger safety net plan before agreeing to vote on the infrastructure plan.

They're concerned letting that infrastructure plan go would give away key leverage at a point in these negotiations. But Manchin earlier today, in a back-and-forth with reporters for some time, talked about that top-line price tag.

And I asked him about his conversations with the White House. He made clear he floated that number to Joe Biden, but it wasn't enough for the president.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: You say talked to Joe Biden about the $1.5 trillion number. What did he say about that?

SEN. JOE MANCHIN (D-WV): And he wants -- he really is sincere. He would like to have a lot more than that. And I said: "Mr. President, I understand that. It's just, hopefully,

you can respect" -- and he's always been so respectful.

He said: "Hey, Joe, I will never ask you to go against your convictions." He says: "I think we want a lot of the same things. We want to help children. We want to help seniors. We want to help those at the bottom of the totem pole. We want the rich to pay their fair share. Do the tax reform."

I'm all for it. We want to basically fix our drug prices to where our Medicare -- we should be able to. I have been very passionate about that.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RAJU: So the bottom line here is that this is going to take some time. Manchin said this could -- they're not close to getting an agreement.

And that is all complicating the timing of everything here, because the leadership initially wanted to move everything together. Then Pelosi suggested they would separate these two out, move the infrastructure plan first. That is not enough to satisfy the left.

So where does this go from here? Still uncertain. The betting is that she will ultimately have to delay the vote, because she does not want to bring a bill to the floor that will ultimately be killed today, so a lot more questions ahead, and a lot more uncertainty for the Biden agenda, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK.

So, Kaitlan, tell us your new reporting on how the president and his top aides are feeling about what's happening.

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Well, Jen Psaki just told reporters, Alisyn, that the president essentially has his entire schedule clear this afternoon for phone calls that need to happen, because, as Manu said, they are also still pointing here at the White House to a vote happening today, because, of course, that is what House Speaker Pelosi has said is the path that she's pursuing, though we should note no vote time has actually been put into the schedule so far.

And the facts on the ground are that they don't have the votes. And Pelosi has she won't bring a bill to the floor if it doesn't have the votes.

[15:05:03]

And so the president's strategy has been to focus precisely on two people. And that is those two moderates, Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema. And he has spoken to them at length this week. He has met with both of them in person. He talked to Senator Manchin on the phone yesterday. His aides went to Capitol Hill yesterday to meet with Senator Sinema in her office. And so there has been a lot of back-and-forth on this. And the White House has been very hesitant to say, what are the outlines that they have heard so far from Senator Manchin and Senator Sinema, though, of course, we heard from Senator Manchin himself, and he said he did inform the president about that $1.5 trillion top line.

And so you're seeing the progressives say that that is simply not enough for them. They still want to know more about what these two moderates want. But the president's main goal here is getting those two senators on board. And, clearly, right now, that is not the case, as of today, in order to meet those progressive demands so they can vote yes on that infrastructure bill today.

And so, of course, all of this is incredibly important to the president when it comes to what this is ultimately going to do for his domestic agenda. But we are seeing some of his top aides, Alisyn, tamp down expectations about a vote happening today, with the energy secretary telling CNN earlier it is not the end of the world if they don't vote on the infrastructure bill today in the White House's point of view.

CAMEROTA: OK, Manu Raju, Kaitlan Collins, thank you. Come back to us as soon as anything breaks.

We have a lot to discuss.

Joining us now CNN, chief political analyst Gloria Borger and CNN senior political commentator David Axelrod, host of "THE AXE FILES."

Great to have both of you.

Axe, I just want to start with you, because this does kind of hearken back to the Obamacare vote and all of the hand-wringing that led up to that and whether or not to go big and bold or go incremental. And I remember all those debates, and you were so closely linked to all of that.

And so what's going to happen? I mean, this is the same type of thing of, do you hold out for big and bold or do you just take a bird in the hand with this bipartisan infrastructure bill?

DAVID AXELROD, CNN SENIOR POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: You know, I'm told -- I remember when to $2 trillion or $1.5 trillion would be pretty big and bold.

All of a sudden, the biggest plans ever are not big and bold. I am very sympathetic to those who want to get as much as possible into this reconciliation bill. Progressives see this as a once-in-a- lifetime opportunity. And I think they are concerned about what happens after 2022 and whether they're going to have the ability to do some of the things that they want to do to strengthen the social safety net and to deal with climate and some of the other things that are in that bill.

But this is the legislative process. I do remember, Alisyn, 2010 and the Affordable Care Act, and there were those who said, if you cannot get a public option as part of this bill, don't do anything, let it die. And I have met so many people between then and now who were helped by that, who got coverage, whose lives were saved because of the bill that was passed.

And I would hate to have had to tell them, hey, we could have helped you, but we couldn't get everything. So we did nothing.

And I can't believe that the Democratic members, progressive or moderate, want to go to the voters in 2022 and say, hey, we could have had the biggest infrastructure bill in history, we could have had a really historic reconciliation bill filled with education and health care and climate components that would have been a real step forward, but it wasn't everything we wanted, so we decided to do nothing.

That's not a good platform, not for the president and not for them.

CAMEROTA: I mean, I hear you, David.

But I think, having just spoken to Congresswoman Cori Bush, what they would say is, what good is a new bridge if you don't have the child care at home in order to get in your car and cross that bridge to go to work?

I mean, you have heard their rationale, Gloria, time and again.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

CAMEROTA: They just think that all of this other social safety net, that they think they will be held responsible if they don't deliver on that stuff. Those are their priorities. So that's why they're dug in.

BORGER: Right. Right.

And you heard Nancy Pelosi today talk about how important all of this is to her, that she sees this, in effect, as a crowning moment of her career. But this is legislation. You can't get everything that you want. And there is one big issue here. They will sink or swim together.

If this all goes down -- and it seems completely irrational to me that they would actually let that occur -- that, if this all goes down, they will be blamed. Infrastructure is very popular. Even though Republicans aren't voting for it, don't get me wrong, in the House, at least, on infrastructure -- they're whipping folks against it.

[15:10:02]

Democrats will be will be blamed for this. And if they don't get 3.5, but instead get $2 trillion, OK, they would get credit for that. And maybe there is a way for them to work things out on how you pay for things, or there's all kinds of compromises that they can strike.

But they haven't gotten to the point yet where they are beyond their talking points. And that is what I think Pelosi is trying to do. And David knows this better than anyone, because Nancy Pelosi was there for getting the Affordable Care Act passed.

And without her, they would have had a very rough time. And so Pelosi...

AXELROD: Wouldn't have happened.

BORGER: Right. Wouldn't have happened.

Pelosi is working this. Biden, at some point, the president at some point, I believe, has to come out and take a stand with these people and say, OK, enough, this is what we have to do, or this will be the failure of my administration. That's how much this -- how important...

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: That's so interesting.

Just one second, David, because it's so interesting that Gloria says that, because what we hear from Joe Manchin is that, well, the president said he has my back and he totally understands my conditions.

BORGER: Right.

CAMEROTA: And then we hear from Congresswoman Jayapal, well, the president has called me and said that he really respects what I'm doing and he wants this agenda.

So we really don't know where President Biden is.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: Yes, but go ahead, David.

AXELROD: Yes.

The point I wanted to make is, this shouldn't just be a beat-down on the progressives, because you do get a sense, to some degree, that Manchin, and particularly Sinema, are trying to score points here on their own political account by poking the progressives.

And instead of saying -- this thing will go if Manchin and Sinema negotiate and say, here's our bottom line, this is what we're willing to do. Probably, for the progressives, it would need to have a 2 in front of it instead of a 1.

CAMEROTA: Right.

AXELROD: But it's certainly not going to be 3.5. That's the way the legislative process works.

But they have taken the posture, particularly Sinema, we're not even going to negotiate until you pass that infrastructure bill. And there's not a lot of trust. They have taught the progressives a lesson in leverage. But the problem -- and progressives are using their own leverage. The problem, is there's not a lot of trust. And where Biden I think can be helpful is saying, all right, get people in a room and say, we can't go on like this, we need to know your bottom line. And we need to kind of reconcile those two things before we move forward.

And unless and until that happens, I think it's going to be hard to move forward.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

I want to switch gears while I have you.

So, David, you had a really interesting conversation with Monica Lewinsky for your podcast, "THE AXE FILES."

AXELROD: Yes. Yes.

CAMEROTA: And we all think we know this story. However, she revealed more about what was going on with her, including the just incredible and understandable mental health despair that she was feeling at the height of this scandal.

So let me just play this for everybody.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

MONICA LEWINSKY, ACTIVIST: I just couldn't see a way out. And I thought that maybe, maybe that was the solution, and had even asked, which is -- this is also an interesting point of just, I had asked the OIC lawyers about, what happens if I die?

And as...

AXELROD: Oh, my goodness.

LEWINSKY: Yes, as more of an adult now, I think back, how is there not a protocol? Like, that's a point where you're supposed to bring a psychologist in or something. How is that not a breaking point?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: I mean, David, it's sad, but it's not surprising to hear that she felt -- had suicidal thoughts at some times.

AXELROD: Yes, I mean, just think about it.

She was 22, I guess at that point a 24-year-old woman, and she's seized by the FBI. She's being interrogated by the Office of the Independent Counsel. And she felt like she was trapped. They were telling her she faced 27 years in prison if she didn't cooperate.

She was thinking, as she said about her family and how they would feel when all these facts of her relationship with Bill Clinton were revealed.

And I was struck. She took responsibility for our own actions, Alisyn, but she was a kid, basically, only a few years older than the president's own daughter. So -- but I should point out that the story -- that our conversation was not just about what happened to her then, but how she's transformed the pain that she went through and the public disapprobation and the bullying and all of that.

And she's turned it into a platform to fight cyber-bullying, to fight the worst aspects of social media, to rally people behind that. And in that sense, it's a very inspiring story.

[15:15:05]

She's not just the punchline to historical epic, but she is a living, breathing human being who's trying to do positive things now.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

AXELROD: And that was very impressive to me.

CAMEROTA: And, Gloria, I'm so sorry we're out of time.

But I know that you share my feeling that we're all so much more sophisticated about mental health now and about those power dynamics than we were covering that in the '90s. And it's made us all...

(CROSSTALK)

BORGER: We left her out there. We left her hanging out there alone, looking back on it, absolutely.

CAMEROTA: I agree.

Gloria Borger, David Axelrod, thank you both very much.

AXELROD: Thanks, Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: You can listen to the full conversation between David and Monica Lewinsky in an all new episode of the CNN podcast "THE AXE FILES."

OK. It's a very busy day here.

We want to go right to the negotiations on Capitol Hill and Congresswoman Barbara Lee of California joins me now.

Congresswoman, thank you for your patience. Really appreciate it. Know how busy you are today.

OK. Where are you? Because the latest thing that we have heard is that Senator Manchin has now given some details about what he's looking for in terms of the reconciliation bill. Let me just put it up for everybody. He wants the top-line number to be $1.5 trillion. I know the progressives want $3.5 trillion .He wants to begin debate October 1, in other words, doesn't feel the need, I think, for the deadline today, and wants any -- he wants to block any funds from the bill being used in until the COVID relief funds are exhausted.

Has that moved the needle for your side at all?

REP. BARBARA LEE (D-CA): Let me just say, first of all, thank you for having me.

And, remember now, we started with our original arrangement deal at over $6 million -- $6 trillion -- excuse me. We're down to $3.5 trillion.

This is a very tough negotiation, because when you look at what his proposal is, I want to know, and I haven't seen this, but what is he willing to give up? Is it child care? Is the child tax credit? Is it our climate provisions, which are going to create good union green jobs for the green industry?

Is it going to be giving up paid family leave? Is it going to be giving on housing, when we have so many unhoused people, so many low- income black and brown people yearning for a place to live? And so I don't know what he's talking about in terms of what he's willing to give up, because I have to tell you, we need good-paying jobs.

We need people to be able to work on these infrastructure projects. And we need women to be able to get back into the work force. Women can't get back into the work force, nearly two million women, because they can't afford child care.

So I'm not sure -- and we're still negotiating. I'm not sure what he's willing to give up, and who he's willing to give up. Once again, our seniors, they deserve good, quality caregiving.

CAMEROTA: Yes.

LEE: And they deserve a decent, affordable place to live. And so we have the care economy in our bill. I don't know if he's willing to give that up or not either.

CAMEROTA: So, Congresswoman, we're hearing contradictory things.

Is Speaker Pelosi still planning to have this vote on the $1.2 trillion bipartisan infrastructure bill today? Or is that now postponed because of all these negotiations?

LEE: We don't know yet. But I just have to say, I don't think -- I'm confident the votes aren't there if it's brought up.

And that's why negotiating for the president's agenda -- and, remember, this is the president's agenda. This is not the moderates or the progressive agenda. And I hope that we clear that up, because 96 percent of the Democratic Caucus supports the president's agenda.

So the speaker is a very good negotiator. I was co-chairing the Progressive Caucus when we had the Affordable Care Act before us. And I saw how she carried that over the finish line. And so I'm confident that there will be a path forward. What that path is, we will see.

CAMEROTA: Would it be helpful to hear more from President Biden about exactly what number or exactly what he would like? Since all we keep hearing is that he's meeting with Senators Sinema and Manchin, but, sometimes, they come out and make it sound as though he's supporting their position too.

LEE: Well, I have to tell you, I was in one of the meetings with President Biden last week. And he laid out his agenda, which was what he campaigned on, child tax credit.

He campaigned on child care for women, especially, who want to go back into the work force, on the climate crisis. He campaigned on the care economy, making sure our seniors have good health care and that people who take care of them have a living wage.

He talked about all of the pathways out of poverty for people who are living below the poverty line, low-wealth individuals. He talked about tax cuts for the middle class. So, I knew where he was after our meeting. I'm very confident that he's still there.

But, of course, he's in the midst of negotiations, and he's going to have to balance what he thinks he can get with what his goals were initially. And I hope that he sticks with it.

[15:20:02]

And I'm confident that he will until we get both of these bills passed.

CAMEROTA: Congresswoman, I want to switch gears to something very personal that happened on Capitol Hill today.

And that was that you and a couple of your female colleagues shared your abortion stories. You're fighting to keep abortion legal in this country. And you went public by saying that you got pregnant at 16 years old and had an abortion.

And it's really -- I mean, these stories are heartbreaking to hear what you and some of your colleagues had to go through as teenagers to make these really tough choices. And I'm just wondering how you feel about having shared your story and why it was important today.

LEE: Well, I tell you, I haven't talked about this because it's my own personal business, right? It's private. My mother and I talked. My late mother was unbelievable in her loving care of me and told me, whatever decision I made, she would support me.

What has happened -- and then, of course, as I testified, I was sent to a good friend of hers in El Paso, where I was born and raised. And she knew a very competent doctor in Mexico, but it was a back alley clinic. And I was terrified.

But I survived that. And it's really hard to talk about, because so many women, especially black women, died of abortions during that time, and I share with them it was you take quinine pills, or you sit in a hot tub of water, or a hanger, you use.

And let me tell you, what's taking place now in states like Texas, we're going to go back to those days, if, in fact, we don't stop these laws and stop allowing these people who don't believe in reproductive freedom to win these battles.

This is a personal decision between a person and their health care provider, their clergy member, their parents, whomever. And so it's not about me laying my views on somebody else or someone telling me what I should do or not do. This is about freedom. This is about reproductive freedom.

And so I had to do it. I was compelled to do it, because I worry that we're going to go back to those days that I know so well of back alley abortions, and women are going to die, and it's going to be black and brown people who are going to die.

CAMEROTA: How could you not be worried? I mean, you have lived it. And it's not as though unplanned or unwanted pregnancies go away when they pass these draconian bills. They don't. You just have to figure out what to do.

And so, having shared it, was it cathartic to share your story?

LEE: No, it was very painful, quite frankly, because I'm a private person. And that is so private. And I think that's the point. It's a personal decision. It's a private decision.

I haven't talked about it because, like my mother said, Barbara, that's your business. Nobody needs to know unless you want to.

The stigma around it. I mentioned earlier that I went to Catholic school. I was the first black cheerleader. I was on the honor roll. I played the piano, won two music scholarships. The stigma of people knowing about that about me, it was just so overwhelmingly painful.

And so it wasn't cathartic. I wrote a book and wrote about this in chapter six, because that was the most difficult chapter to write. But I have never really talked about it. But I hope that those who really do believe they can control our bodies heard us and say, look, we're not trying to tell you what to do. We just ask you not to tell us that you're going to make your decisions -- our decisions for us.

And so it was hard. And I won't say it was cathartic, but I hope that I'm able to convey to those who are listening the fact that people deserve reproductive freedom and deserve to make their own personal health decisions.

And for me to talk about it, because it's so personal for me, is a major step for me.

CAMEROTA: Congresswoman Barbara Lee, thank you for talking about all of this with us. We really appreciate it.

LEE: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: OK, happening now, the House is voting on a bill to avert a government shutdown. More on this and what Speaker Pelosi is saying about the timing on that infrastructure vote next. (COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[15:28:55]

CAMEROTA: OK, we have some breaking news.

The House is voting on a bill to avert that government shutdown by extending government funding through December 3.

So, let's get right to CNN's Manu Raju.

Manu, that vote is happening right now. What's the latest?

RAJU: Yes, and this is going to pass, expected to pass pretty easily. Right now, 94 Republicans have voted against it; 140 Democrats have voted for it. They will easily have enough votes to keep the government open only until December 3.

Remember, at midnight tonight, without a funding agreement, that this will fail, that the government will shut down if they didn't get this bill passed. But, ultimately, they were able to get a resolution here on this issue that would also provide money for disaster aid, for dealing with Afghanistan refugees.

But it would not, and very importantly, deal with raising the national debt ceiling. That had been a huge issue, still is a huge issue that has not yet been resolved between the two sides. Democrats wanted to tie this issue together to avoid a potential debt default by October 18.

But, because Republicans resisted, Democrats took out that raising of the national debt ceiling, that provision. And now they will deal with -- they will have the government funded, but they have not dealt with that very, very significant issue.

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