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Brett Kavanaugh Tests Positive For COVID; Interview With Fmr. Rep. Dennis Kucinich (D-OH); President Biden Heads to Capitol Hill. Aired 3-3:30p ET

Aired October 01, 2021 - 15:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[15:00:56]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: It's the top of the hour. I'm Alisyn Camerota. Thanks so much for joining me.

President Biden is expected on Capitol Hill within the hour to try to save his economic agenda. On Thursday, the Democrats failed to bring that $1.2 trillion bipartisan infrastructure deal to a vote, despite a flurry of negotiations. House Speaker Nancy Pelosi had promised there would be a vote yesterday. But then, at midnight, she announced that there was a new deadline, which is today.

Pelosi just held a meeting with her party. Some Democrats have now been floating a new number on that social safety net package of $2.1 trillion as a counteroffer to Senator Joe Manchin's $1.5 trillion top- line offer.

The leader of the House Progressive Caucus said she has yet to receive any official proposal. And she does not expect resolution soon. Despite that, the head of the House Democratic Caucus just said this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): The speaker has indicated that we're going to vote today. And I expect a vote today. And I expect that the bill will pass today.

We just need to understand that there's a commitment on the Senate side to do both in a meaningful and authentic way.

QUESTION: Have you gotten that?

JEFFRIES: And I hope I hope that that's something that we will receive in the next hour or so.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: CNN's Lauren Fox is on Capitol Hill for us.

But I want to begin with CNN's Phil Mattingly. He's at the White House.

So, Phil, the president is leaving for Capitol Hill, I guess any moment. What's his plan when he gets there?

PHIL MATTINGLY, CNN SENIOR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: You know, I think to elevate things a little bit, to be honest.

There has been such visceral intraparty warfare over the course of the last couple of days, maybe even weeks. There have been very intense negotiations behind the scenes over the course of the last 24 hours to try and hammer out some kind of framework that can unlock the votes on that infrastructure proposal and clear the pathway on that second climate and economic piece as well.

But the president really wants to talk about the idea that this is his agenda. This is what he's put on the table. And if Democrats support him and his agenda, which all have made very clear they do, this is the pathway forward.

Whatever the agreement ends up being on that framework that's currently under way, that will be the pathway to keep moving forward. And I think that's what you have heard most from White House officials about this visit. He wants to make clear to Democrats that, if they want what he's laid out, what they campaigned on, what they say what they say this support, this is the time to move forward.

This was how White House Press Secretary Jen Psaki framed things:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JEN PSAKI, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: I'm not going to make a prediction of whether there will or won't be a vote. I will leave that to Speaker Pelosi to determine when she will call a vote.

But he's making the case he believes it's the right time for him to go up there. This is -- these are his proposals. These are his bold ideas. This is his plan that he's outlined to not just rebuild our roads, our railways, and bridges and put millions of people back to work.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MATTINGLY: So, obviously, the White House being very careful on whether or not there's going to be a vote. To be clear, that's not the White House's role here.

But when you send the president to Capitol Hill, it carries meaning, it carries a lot of weight. And it sends a very clear message to the Democratic Caucus. That is exactly what the White House and Speaker Pelosi are going for with this visit.

We will know. Jen Psaki also laid out that the president is going to be hitting the road by the middle of next week again to try and sell that plan to the public. It's been something they have wanted to do for several weeks. They actually canceled a trip earlier this week because of these negotiations.

They want to not just get this across the finish line when it comes to Congress. They also want to make sure that the public knows what's going on as well. They believe that is a critical component of the steps ahead -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, so, Lauren, we just heard from Congressman Jeffries there.

He said a vote is happening today. We heard that yesterday as well, I should mention, but, more importantly, I mean, have they reached any middle ground on that larger social safety net package? We keep hearing different numbers being floated.

LAUREN FOX, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn, the short answer is no. They don't have an agreement on this so-called framework that they were trying to reach with those two moderate senators, both Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin.

[15:05:03]

One of the concerns has been, what will that top-line spending number be? And you have heard the speaker and you have heard the majority leader argue that Democrats shouldn't be so fixated on what that number is, but instead worry about what programs they're going to actually fund, whether it's paid family leave or an extended or expanded child tax credit.

But one thing is very clear from sources that I'm talking to this afternoon. They are not closer on that framework piece. There is not an announcement imminent, as the president is coming to Capitol Hill. Instead, like Phil said, this is about reminding lawmakers why they are in Congress, what the president's agenda is, and really to try to bring them back together.

The progressives and moderates have been drawing some red lines and really putting themselves in what one lawmaker told me yesterday was basically a box canyon. How do you get out of a situation where you have progressives saying they need guarantees from Senate moderates and Senate moderates saying that they aren't willing to have this vote yet, and they instead want to make sure that $1.2 trillion infrastructure bill passes in the House?

This has been a very contentious week on Capitol Hill for the Democratic Party. And I think Biden is really trying to make sure that he reminds people why they all got elected in 2020. That's going to be the message up here.

The question, of course, whether or not it will resonate with Democrats, whether it will bring them together, and, ultimately, what House Speaker Nancy Pelosi does at the end of that meeting. Is she going to bring that infrastructure bill to the floor, as she promised moderates earlier this week, or will they go home this weekend, having done nothing on that front, Alisyn?

CAMEROTA: OK, Lauren Fox, Phil Mattingly, come back to us as soon as anything breaks. Thank you very much.

So, the battle of the progressives inside the Democratic Party is very familiar to my next guest. In 2010. Congressman Dennis Kucinich bucked Democratic leadership and became the last progressive holdout against voting for Obamacare because he wanted the single-payer public option.

Then, after being wooed by then President Obama -- here, the two of them are walking off Air Force One -- Dennis Kucinich changed his stance and announced his support for the Affordable Care Act on "LARRY KING LIVE."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

FMR. REP. DENNIS KUCINICH (D-OH): This is -- was a detour. If you hit a roadblock, you got a choice. You can go straight, and maybe go over a cliff or you can take a detour and eventually get to the destination that you hoped to get to.

It wasn't my way, but I'm not a my way or the highway kind of guy, Larry. I thought that, when all was said and done, I made my point, I couldn't get my way, that it was more important to see people get a chance to have some coverage, even if it's from private insurance companies, than to kill the bill.

I didn't want to be responsible for killing the bill.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CAMEROTA: And former Ohio Congressman Dennis Kucinich joins me now, along with CNN chief political analyst Gloria Borger.

Great to see both of you.

Congressman, you must be having some intense deja vu watching all of this play out, because, as we said, you were the last holdout on the Affordable Care Act. And so you didn't get what you wanted back then. You were a huge champion of the single-payer option. You didn't get it.

And so what's your advice today, right now, this hour, to progressives who are holding out for the bigger $3.5 trillion social safety net?

KUCINICH: Well, I certainly understand holding out. And I certainly understand fighting on until -- as long as you can.

I had 75 -- 74 other Democrats who said they were going to go all the way to the -- with me on a single-payer, and they all folded. So I was standing alone. And it turned out my vote was a pivotal vote.

Now, to be sure, I didn't promise President Obama anything on Air Force One. He tried to reach me later on that evening. And I knew he was calling. I didn't take his call, I had to make this decision based on what was best for my constituents.

And, frankly, in the end, I also was concerned that if I turned the tide against the Affordable Health Care Act, and it was defeated, that the Obama presidency was going to be in trouble, and that -- I had to make that decision as well.

So, for one person -- and I know what members of Congress are going through. You have to weigh what it means to your constituents. And at that moment, I had to weigh what it meant for the Obama presidency as well.

CAMEROTA: And do you, Congressman, think that's on the line here? I mean, do you think that President Biden's presidency hangs on this?

And so should progressives take a page from your book and fall in line if that's the case?

KUCINICH: Well, see, here's the thing.

The progressions aren't the only one who are parties to these negotiations. I'm glad to see there's a counteroffer coming over from the Senate to get to at least $2.1 trillion the social spending. That's good.

[15:10:03]

And someone has to take a stand for the American people to make sure that the social needs are met and we deal with these climate issues. At the same time, from my -- and, again, I'm sharing my experience. My experience was, I came to the consideration that the Obama presidency was on the line.

Could that also be true for President Biden? I think the answer is yes. At the same time, progressives have to fight on as long as they can and as hard as they can for these objectives that they have laid out. In the end, I think there will be a compromise of sorts. I think there will be people able to claim a victory.

And I have always felt it was better to claim a moral victory than a Pyrrhic one.

CAMEROTA: Gloria, this is very interesting to hear, because it sounds like some progressives who've been very vocal in the past few days see Congressman Kucinich as a cautionary tale.

I mean, they're basically saying, we have caved on other things, we have caved on police reform, we have caved on voting rights, we're not going to be fooled again.

GLORIA BORGER, CNN CHIEF POLITICAL ANALYST: Right.

And they also think that they have more leverage now than they did back in the Obama years. And that may be true. And they're trying to use their leverage now to squeeze every dollar they possibly can out of moderates and out of the Senate.

So, they're -- I understand why they're doing what they're doing. But if you look back to what Congressman Kucinich did, you wouldn't have had Obamacare. And would they now say, well, yes, maybe we shouldn't have had Obamacare? The Biden administration is trying to improve on Obamacare.

But this, I think, is a moment for progressives to kind of flex their muscle. And that's what they have been doing, and they haven't been bluffing. And they feel the party has always given into moderates. And I think now we are at an existential moment for the Biden agenda. And I think they also understand that, in the way that Congressman

Kucinich understood it for Obama. And so they do have to weigh these things. And I believe that, at some point, maybe tonight, they will come up with some kind of a framework that they can all live with.

I mean, I wouldn't dare predict that. But I do believe, at some point, you have to think of something greater than yourself. And I think that may come into play here when Joe Biden goes to the Hill today.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Kucinich, about that, about President Biden going to the Hill, I mean, you say you didn't promise anything to President Obama on Air Force One. I get it.

But did he use -- he must have used some powers of persuasion, some tactics on you to get you to change your mind? What do you think President Biden can do today on the Hill to get this -- all Democrats together?

KUCINICH: I probably shouldn't admit this, but what the heck.

I didn't get anything for that vote.

(LAUGHTER)

KUCINICH: But what I got was preexisting conditions were covered for my constituents, that young people up to 25 years of age would be covered under their parents' policies. I got something that I thought was helpful to my constituents.

And I also -- let me tell you what happened. I went down early in the morning the day before I made my decision. I went and sat next to Lincoln's statue in the Rotunda. It was about 7:00 in the morning. And I prayed. I prayed for some guidance. And I really wasn't sure what to do.

Nothing the president told me convinced -- because he wasn't ready to yield an inch. So I really felt he -- from my discussion with him that maybe he didn't have enough political experience to understand where -- the situation he was in. And so I was worried for his presidency and for the country.

And so I made a decision based on that. Now, every member of Congress, you don't get there without having some sense of what's right for your constituents. So I think every member will make the right choice. And I think it's quite possible you will see the infrastructure bill passed, and I think a framework will be developed.

And I think that framework will show that progressives have won a victory. But that all has to unfold right now.

(CROSSTALK)

CAMEROTA: That's an incredible story. Yes, Congressman, I appreciate you sharing, the weight that was on your shoulders as the sole person.

And, Gloria, I want to hear what you have to say. But do you think that the progressives are feeling that pressure right now? Because they see pretty dug in.

BORGER: Yes.

Yes, I think everyone up there is feeling that pressure right now because they all sink or swim together. And I think they know that. What's interesting to me is the timing of the president's visit to the Hill. He's an old Hill hand. I don't think you send a president to talk to the Democratic Caucus unless you will -- at this moment, this important moment, which will determine whether the Democrats can in fact govern as a majority, I don't think you send a president up to the Hill unless you're feeling pretty good about the fact that he's going to succeed.

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I mean, you're not going to set Joe Biden up for failure. And I think what he's going to do there, because he does have the experience that perhaps Barack Obama did not, what he's going to do there is give them his word, which he talks about an awful lot: I'm as good as my word. You know me. You have known me, et cetera, et cetera.

But I have to believe that they're feeling good about something, because you don't set a president up for a bad vote.

CAMEROTA: I only have 10 seconds left. Congressman, do you agree that they wouldn't send him up there?

KUCINICH: I agree with that.

And I think, again, the -- President Biden's agendas at risk here. I think all the Democrats are going to at some point recognize that. And I think progressives have taken a -- drawn a line, and I think they will probably benefit from it with the final outcome.

CAMEROTA: Congressman Dennis Kucinich, Gloria Borger, great conversation. Thanks so much. Really interesting insights.

BORGER: Sure.

KUCINICH: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Minutes from now, President Biden is heading to Capitol Hill as he tries to save his domestic agenda and bring together a divided Democratic Party. We have all of the minute-by-minute latest for you.

And Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh just tested positive for coronavirus. What does that mean for the start of the new court term?

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CAMEROTA: This just in. The FDA just set dates for its vaccine advisory committee to consider booster shots of the Moderna and J&J vaccines and to consider the Pfizer vaccine for kids aged 5 through 11.

So, these meetings on Moderna and J&J will take place on October 14 and 15. And then the committee will meet on the 26th of October to discuss the Pfizer vaccine for younger children. The committee will also discuss data on mix-and-match boosters.

Meanwhile, Supreme Court Justice Brett Kavanaugh has tested positive for COVID-19. He learned of his results just 24 hours before he was supposed to attend a ceremonial swearing-in event for fellow Justice Amy Coney Barrett. She previously had contracted and recovered from COVID.

Justice Kavanaugh appears to be symptom-free. Earlier this week, he competed in a three-mile Capital Challenge race.

Jessica Schneider is CNN's justice correspondent.

So, Jessica, what do we know about his condition? And the court was supposed to meet in person for the first time on Monday. And so now what?

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: Yes, a lot in flux right now, Alisyn.

The court gave us this news right before that ceremony for me Amy Coney Barrett this morning. Basically, Justice Kavanaugh had a routine test yesterday, per the court's testing protocols. It came back positive. Now, he is fully vaccinated. He's showing no symptoms.

His wife and two daughters, they're also vaccinated. They have been tested. That came out negative. But we also know that, earlier this week, Justice Kavanaugh was with the other eight justices Monday in their private conference. That was in person.

The court did say, at that point, though, Justice Kavanaugh, he tested negative before the Monday meeting. But the positive test last night, it meant that Justice Kavanaugh and his wife stayed away from the court today. So the question is, what happens on Monday, the first day of the court's term? We're still waiting to get more information from the court about what exactly it will mean.

Of course, it's an extremely anticipated term, with hearings to come in November on gun rights, in December on abortion. Oral arguments, the first one scheduled for 10:00 Monday, it will be the first time justices are back in the courtroom in more than a year. They have been conducting all of these arguments over the phone because of COVID.

So, Alisyn, the court hasn't revealed plans yet for Justice Kavanaugh's participation. We know -- we don't know how he will participate. It's likely at this point that he won't be in the courtroom.

So, the questions are, would he dial in, maybe do it from home? That's how they have been doing it in the past, maybe from another location, but a lot of logistical questions here that the court has really been balancing for more than a year now, Alisyn, but now they will be back in the courtroom.

Things on Monday a bit complicated by Justice Kavanaugh's positive test, though -- Alisyn.

CAMEROTA: OK, Jessica Schneider, thank you for the reporting.

Ed Yong is a staff writer at "The Atlantic," and he joins me now to discuss this and so much more.

Ed, great to see you.

I know that neither you nor I are doctors. However, isn't it -- isn't there a strong likelihood that this is a false positive? And the reason I ask is because after we saw what happened at "The View," where there was all of that chaos, and then it turned out that the hosts -- it was a false positive, I mean, the fact that he that does Justice Kavanaugh, his family is doubly vaccinated, his family's doubly vaccinated, his colleagues are, it's possible.

ED YONG, "THE ATLANTIC": Sure.

What I want to -- what I would love to talk about, rather than focusing on any specific individual case, is the bigger picture of where the country is with the pandemic.

So, in the piece that I wrote recently for "The Atlantic" about how we're barreling towards the next pandemic, we do need to take this moment of opportunity not to get distracted, but to focus on shoring up our defenses against whatever might come down the line.

And we have this very rare opportunity to make America better steeled against whatever is coming next. And my concern is that that is going to vanish quickly as we proceed with -- through the year.

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CAMEROTA: OK, I do want to ask you about that.

So, basically, in your piece in "The Atlantic," you talk about how the first outbreak here in the U.S. of COVID-19 was this deadly fire alarm basically, and then we should have been -- it should have prepared us more for the Delta variant. But somehow we failed on both counts.

So what did we do wrong?

YONG: Many of the mistakes we made with Delta were the same ones that we made when the original coronavirus started spreading around the world.

We had insufficient testing. We weren't adequately prepared for a virus that was already ravaging other parts of the world to arrive in the U.S. I think a lot of that stems from hubris and complacency, but it also stems from this panic-neglect cycle that has long been occurring.

Whenever a crisis -- and then once the immediacy fades, so does our care about the problem. We can see that with Delta. It was in many ways an audition for the next pandemic, and one we failed. And it means that we do now need, even while we're thinking about boosters and vaccinations and Kavanaugh and whatever, to think about how we can better prepare against whatever comes next.

We have to do both of those things at the same time.

CAMEROTA: So, what problems do we need to fix right now, today?

YONG: I think two in particular.

One is the longstanding problem with public health in this country. It is for over a -- almost a century faced increased incredible amounts of disinvestment, so that the current structure is understaffed. It is crumbling buildings. It is archaic data systems. It needs a stable and substantial amount of money to put -- make it up to scratch.

Second, we need to understand that pandemics affect societies according to the inequities within them. And America presented COVID with huge vulnerabilities. There's no -- it's not a surprise that the virus disproportionately struck poorer people, minorities and disabled people.

That's the same pattern we saw with H1N1, swine flu, and with many epidemics before that. Unless we patch those vulnerabilities, unless we think of preparedness not just in terms of vaccines and drugs, but also in terms of things like universal health care and paid sick leave, then we're going to be equally vulnerable the next time around.

We need to understand that preparedness also involves creating a social safety net that makes our entire society, everyone in it, less susceptible.

CAMEROTA: I don't know, Ed. This sounds like a very tall order that I don't know that we -- any of this bodes well for the next pandemic, as we're still trying to just wrestle our way through this one.

But I really appreciate all of your reporting and research and sharing it with us.

Ed Yong, thank you.

YONG: Thank you.

CAMEROTA: Well, the conspiracy theorist who pushed those hideous lies about the Sandy Hook shooting is now actually being held responsible. He's going to have to pay up.

That's next.

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