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Trump Teases 2024 Presidential Run; Delays at Southwest Airlines; At-Home COVID Treatment. Aired 1-1:30p ET

Aired October 11, 2021 - 13:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:00:00]

JESSICA SCHNEIDER, CNN JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: "We received training on warning signs to spot insider threats. We made very sure not to display even a single one. I do not believe any of my former colleagues would suspect me if there was a future investigation."

But, of course, John, the entire time, he was in communication with this FBI undercover agent, got caught, will appear in court with his wife tomorrow.

JOHN KING, CNN HOST: Busted. Jessica Schneider, appreciate that.

Thanks for joining us today. We will see you tomorrow.

Pam Brown picks up our coverage right now.

PAMELA BROWN, CNN HOST: Hi there. I'm Pamela Brown in Washington. Ana Cabrera is off today. Great to have you along with us on this Monday.

And we want to start today with some good news. It is a big day in the pandemic fight. The first ever at-home treatment of COVID-19 is now in FDA hands. Drugmaker Merck officially submitting its antiviral pill for emergency use authorization. The company says it cuts the risk of COVID hospitalization and death by 50 percent.

Right now, the only other treatments have to be infused or injected. So it is a potential game-changer also for hospitals, this on the heels of a promising vaccination jumped, over two million Americans rolling up their sleeves over the past three days, more than 76 percent of the eligible population now at least partly vaccinated.

Let's bring in CNN senior medical correspondent Elizabeth Cohen.

Elizabeth, two big questions on this new antiviral pill. How exactly does it work? And how effective is it compared to other treatments?

ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Pamela, this pill, which is out from Merck, is really quite effective.

We haven't seen data published in a medical journal. But Merck has put out some data. So let's take a look at what those numbers say. So, Merck did a clinical trial of about more than 750 people, and they divided them in half. So, half got a placebo, which is a pill that does nothing, and half got the actual antiviral drug. When they followed the folks with the placebo over time, 45 ended up

in the hospital. So, to be clear, these are folks that had early stage COVID-19; 45 ended up in the hospital and eight died. The folks who got the actual drug, who also had early stage COVID-19, only 28 ended up in the hospital, and none of them died.

So those numbers are impressive. However, as I said, they haven't been published, and FDA and CDC experts need to really look them over. Now, there really is only one other drugs specifically for early COVID-19, in other words, folks before they get into the hospital. That's monoclonal antibodies. Those also work very well.

But as you mentioned, you either have to get an I.V. for those or you have to get shots, and it's just much more difficult. Hospitals have to set up programs. And it's much more difficult. The benefit of the pill is your doctor can just call in a prescription.

But, to be clear, neither of these treatments, COVID pill or an infusion of antibodies, neither one of them is as good as a vaccine. It is always better to prevent an illness, because you don't have to be a doctor to know that an ounce of prevention is better than a pound of cure -- Pamela.

BROWN: Exactly, because if even if you are infected with it, you could still have long-haul symptoms and so forth, even if you could take a pill to help or monoclonal antibodies.

In addition to this, cases remained steady or dropped on week to week seven-day average. This is a good trend we're seeing. Tell us more about it. What should we make of this?

COHEN: It is, indeed. So let's take a look at this map.

You will see very few states in red. Red means that COVID numbers are going up. COVID cases are going up. So it's good to see just five states; 19 states are in yellow, those are holding steady. The numbers are about the same. And 26 states, 26 states, the numbers are going down.

This is great. But, Pamela, we have kind of sort of been here before, which was in late May, early June. And then we saw what happened. This virus is very smart. And let's hope we stay where we are and it gets better, but there's no guarantees -- Pamela.

BROWN: Let's hope. We know, with this virus, there is no guarantees. You're so right. Elizabeth Cohen, thank you so much.

COHEN: Right.

BROWN: And joining us now to discuss this and more is Dr. William Schaffner, infectious diseases professor at Vanderbilt University Medical Center.

Great to see you, Dr. Schaffner.

So let's talk about this antiviral pill. How significant is it? Put it into context for us about how much it moves the needle in the fight against COVID.

DR. WILLIAM SCHAFFNER, DEPARTMENT OF PREVENTIVE MEDICINE CHAIRMAN, VANDERBILT UNIVERSITY: Well, Pamela, as Elizabeth has been saying, it opens up very large new opportunities. Think about it.

If you're diagnosed with COVID now and you're eligible for one of these monoclonal antibody treatments, you're going to have to get an appointment. You're going to have to go to a location. You will either get a series of injections or intravenous infusion of the monoclonal antibody, cumbersome and much more expensive than just calling a pharmacy, picking up your pills, and taking your pills.

[13:05:07]

Still expensive, but, nonetheless, the potential is that this benefit to prevent the development of serious disease could be spread much more widely to harder-to-reach populations. And so that's a very exciting prospect.

But I'm going to say, as Elizabeth did also, it's not as -- it's not a substitute for vaccination. Primary prevention is best, rather than treatment.

BROWN: OK, so let's talk about that a little bit more, because you have Texas gubernatorial candidate Lieutenant Colonel Allen West fighting COVID right now in the hospital. He is unvaccinated.

He has been posting about his hospitalization to countless followers. And I want to read you something he posted this morning.

He said: "Why not promote protocols such as Regeneron, monoclonal antibody infusion therapy? Why not promote budesonide -- and I totally botched the pronunciation of that" -- nebulizer treatments? Why not promote healthy over-the-counter therapies such as zinc, which I take, D3, vitamin C, hydroxychloroquine, and, yes, ivermectin? I am thankful that the medical professionals here in Medical City listened to me, not some boilerplate CDC Dr. Fauci or Texas medical board mandates."

How dangerous is that messaging?

SCHAFFNER: Well, it is, of course, because it's promoting things that are scientifically invalid, things that have been shown not to be of use.

Now, in there, there's some grains of good medicine, because, obviously, vaccination, I didn't hear about that, but the use of monoclonal antibodies clearly will reduce the risk of serious disease in high-risk patients.

So, in and amongst all of that, there's some good information, but it's just very -- all kinds of nonsense.

BROWN: Right. I want to be clear, though. He is unvaccinated. And I -- tweeted as well, I believe it was in a tweet, that the shot was dangerous, which is completely a lie. And so he's unvaccinated. He's saying that, and yet he is saying, why

not these other treatments? And part of the reason why it's better to be vaccinated, as I hear you saying, rather than just rely on these treatments once you get COVID is, first of all, they're not 100 percent effective, but also it can clog up the already strained hospitals, right?

Because you have to go to the hospital to get these treatments. So I just want to emphasize that.

I want to ask you about pregnant women too, because in the U.K. right now, unvaccinated pregnant women make up almost one-fifth of the most critically ill COVID patients, this as new study reveals the risk COVID poses to pregnancy.

Last year at a Texas hospital between March and September, 58 percent of mothers with symptomatic infections delivered in emergency circumstances. We have this data, yet pregnant women are among the least vaccinated population. How do we fix this?

SCHAFFNER: Well, I think all of our colleagues in obstetrics and gynecology have got to be even more insistent on promoting vaccination during pregnancy.

It's very important to protect the mom herself. And beyond that, we want to protect the baby, because there are data to clearly show that women who are pregnant who acquire COVID are more likely to deliver a premature baby. That's not in the best interests of that infant.

So vaccinating mom protects not only her, but her fetus and her newborn. So there's a double bonus there.

BROWN: All right, Dr. Schaffner, thank you so much.

SCHAFFNER: My pleasure.

BROWN: And we turn out to thousands of air travelers right now feeling the Southwest woes. Southwest Airlines today canceling hundreds more flights as it recovers from this weekend's scheduling mess that grounded more than 2,000 flights, fliers stranded, waiting in line for hours to try and rebook.

CNN aviation correspondent Pete Muntean joins us now from Reagan National Airport.

What a mess this is, Pete. Tell us more about what the company is saying and what you're hearing from passengers.

PETE MUNTEAN, CNN AVIATION CORRESPONDENT: Oh, a huge operational mess, Pamela.

This is not like Southwest could just flip a switch and get things back to normal right away. In fact, it's really more akin to it unplugging the operation and plugging it back in again, because it says all these problems really started to cascade on Friday. It really pins the blame here on air traffic control and weather

issues. But what's so interesting is that the Federal Aviation administration issued a rare statement saying that those were not real factors on Saturday and Sunday, when Southwest had the lion's share of its cancellations, 800 flights canceled on Saturday, 1, 100 flights canceled on Sunday, about 30 percent of Southwest's schedule overall.

So far, we have seen about 360 cancellations today, about one in every 10 flights. The point is, this is not over just yet. And in a memo to Southwest Airlines employees, the airline really describes a ripple effect of passengers and people in the wrong positions, in some cases, flight crews without hotel rooms to stay in.

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The bottom line here is that tens of thousands of passengers were stranded by this, waiting in these huge, long lines that you have seen, on hold, in some cases, for hours trying to get through to customer service. And they're not happy about this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no explanation for this problem. So I suspect that Southwest isn't being totally honest with us.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Literally couldn't even sleep last night really, just because we didn't know what was going to happen.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Started looking through, and there's just nothing, nothing, nothing for like the next few days.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MUNTEAN: In a memo to employees, Southwest describes that this was compounded by the fact that most of these problems were isolated to Florida, which is a really central part of its operation.

Southwest says it is simply trying to get things back to normal right now. But one other thing at play here, Pamela, is that the airline is a lot smaller than it was before the pandemic, about 7,000 fewer employees, just making it harder to get back to normal here.

BROWN: Right.

And it's worth noting that what Southwest is complaining about, other airlines presumably had to deal with the same thing, but they did not have -- they were not impacted in the same dramatic way as we're seeing play out right now with Southwest.

Pete, thanks so much.

And with us now is Casey Murray, President Of The Southwest Airlines Pilots Association.

Hi, Casey. Thanks for joining us. So, Southwest Airlines at first came out blaming this weekend's chaos

on air traffic control issues and weather. The FAA says there were no air traffic control issues. What is your reaction to what is going on here?

CASEY MURRAY, PRESIDENT, SOUTHWEST AIRLINES PILOTS ASSOCIATION: Well, I'm really proud of all the employees of Southwest, but especially our pilots.

Our pilots are picking up extra flying. They're out there on their days off. And it's really internal processes at Southwest, as well as I.T.

And what we haven't seen is Southwest speak to, what is going to be the solution moving forward?

BROWN: Right.

And the question is, do pilots already feel stressed and overworked, and now this? Give us insight into what's going on with them?

MURRAY: Yes, well, we're seeing sick rates in line with where they were this summer. So that's not an issue. We're seeing pickup rates. Our pilots are the most productive in the world. They're the safest in the world. And they work harder than anyone else.

And they're out there trying to serve our customers, and they're doing everything they can. So picking up on their off-days, all of that time is -- and looking back at the data this weekend, our pilots are out there doing everything they can to do just that, safely and efficiently service our customers.

BROWN: So a transcript of a video message, the company's CEO Mike Van de Ven to employees was shared with CNN.

And he said in this video: "We are still not where we want to be with staffing and, in particular, with our flight crews. We simply need more staffing cushion for the unexpected in this environment. And we are bringing new people on board every day."

Van de Ven says that he is working on this. In your view, is more hiring the answer.

MURRAY: Actually, we're actually opposed to more hiring.

They are going to have to hire some, but, for us, it is how they are scheduling us, and efficiencies that are failing within the operation and managing the network. If we can get those corrected and hear something from the company as to how that's going to be addressed, we don't have to see an overhiring situation.

It is all about revenue. We want -- we don't want the company canceling flights. We don't want the company hiring just more people to fill in an inefficient scheduling process.

BROWN: So that is what you think the issue is, the inefficient scheduling process? That is what has kind of come to a head here?

MURRAY: Yes, it's the scheduling processes. It's also I.T. and a lack of true I.T. support.

This has been going on, and we have identified some of these problems four years ago. We have seen this issue, the same issue that happened this weekend, has happened for the past two years. We saw it this summer, to a much greater degree.

But our pilots are there picking up time, working on their days off and are doing everything they possibly can. But until the company corrects some of these issues with how they schedule and reroute pilots, flight attendants, then we're going to continue to see the same issue next week and over the holidays. And that's what we want to see avoided.

BROWN: There's been some social media chatter suggesting that this is somehow related to the airline's vaccine mandate. What is your reaction to that?

MURRAY: It's absolutely not true.

I'm a little disappointed that it took Southwest until this morning to actually say something about it. But, as I said, our sick rates are right in line with where they were this summer. And our pilot pickup rates are as high as they have ever been.

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So our pilots are out there for our customers all weekend long.

BROWN: All right, Casey Murray, thank you so much.

MURRAY: Thank you.

BROWN: And thank you all those pilots and flight attendants. That's for sure.

Lies fly, backbones bend in Iowa, as former President Trump returns to tease another run and launch new attacks on American democracy. And he did it all in front of a raucous crowd, including Senator Chuck Grassley, who rebuked Trump's dangerous behavior just months ago. That was a quick reversal.

Plus, Trump also ramping up his efforts to paint Capitol Hill rioter Ashli Babbitt as a martyr, marking her birthday in a new video and demanding a new investigation into her death.

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BROWN: It's been nearly a year since Donald Trump lost reelection by seven million votes. It has been more than nine months since his supporters our stormed the Capitol after Trump tried and failed to overturn his defeat. Despite all that, rapturous Republican grounds are still gathering for

his rallies. On Saturday in Iowa, the former president hit the campaign trail again, where he lied about 2020 again, attacked Republicans and fellow citizens again and promised to make America great again, again.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: First of all, he didn't get elected. OK, forget that.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: But some people said, oh, sir, it was COVID.

Hillary conceded. I never conceded, never.

(CHEERING AND APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: When you hear these numbers of swing states, there was no reason to concede. They should have conceded.

It was supposed to be something a little different than make America great. It was supposed to be keep America great. But America's not great right now. So we're using the same slogan, make America great again. And we may even add to it, but we will keep it, make America great again, again, because we already did it, right?

We're going to make America great again, again.

Mitch McConnell should have challenged that election, because even back then we had plenty of material to challenge that election. He should have challenged the election. Schumer would have challenged the election. But Mitch McConnell didn't have the courage to challenge the election.

He's only a leader because he raises a lot of money and he gives it to senators. That's the only thing he's got. That's his only form of leadership. He should have challenged the election.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BROWN: And just a reminder to our viewers, as I have said so many times, this was challenged in court, and more than 60 judges tossed out the cases, including Trump-appointed judges.

The election was not stolen.

I'm joined now by Bill Kristol, editor at large at The Bulwark.

Bill, nice to see you.

Let's talk about Senator Chuck Grassley, shall we? He shared the stage with Trump Saturday.

And just as a refresher, here's what Grassley said the day after the Capitol riot: "As the leader of the nation, the president bears some responsibility for the actions that he inspires, good or bad. Sadly, yesterday, he displayed poor leadership in his words and actions, and he must take responsibility."

Trump has not taken responsibility, obviously. He's using the same exact words that prompted the insurrection, saying the election was stolen. But now Grassley is OK with it? Your reaction to this?

BILL KRISTOL, DIRECTOR, DEFENDING DEMOCRACY TOGETHER: Yes, you're right, Pamela.

And the problem is Donald Trump, but the deeper problem, probably even more dangerous complement to the problem of Trump and his base, are the establishment Republicans like Chuck Grassley, who will not take responsibility for correcting the lie.

He was there on stage, right? He could have said, you know what, Mr. President? I'm a Republican. I appreciate your support. I do want to say, though, that it was wrong to -- it's wrong to deny that the election was fair and honest. It's wrong to subvert elections going forward. He won't say that. None of them will say that.

And that is more fundamental a problem -- fundamental of a problem, I think, than Trump himself going around saying this. If Trump were just saying it, and there was no political party echoing it, supporting him, taking actions at the state level to follow up on his claims, so they can subvert the election next time, then we would have a problem of an ex-president being irresponsible.

But now we have a problem of a whole political party signing on to a lie and acting on behalf of that lie going forward.

BROWN: Here's what is so frightening, I think, is that, by being silent and staying on the sidelines and then supporting him, you're basically complicit in what can happen as a result.

And we saw what could happen with the insurrection, right? That -- it was a violent insurrection on the U.S. Capitol Building. And yet it seems as though now there is this effort by Republicans, including Chuck Grassley, now to just kind of try to sweep that under the rug, but the lie continues, and there's no pushback to him.

And we now know that Trump was personally involved in trying to pull off a bloodless coup, pressuring the DOJ nine times, pressuring Georgia officials. That's what we know. But after everything, he not only has a political career. It's thriving.

His 53 percent favorability rating in Iowa is the highest he has ever scored there. What does that tell you?

KRISTOL: No, you're right. It's not just the insurrection on the 6th. It's what -- January 6. It's what Trump did between November 3 and January 6, trying to pressure state officials.

Now some state legislatures have made such pressure more likely, not less. Trying to establish that the state legislature is going to overturn the votes of the citizens of the state, that's now becoming more respectable in Republican circles to advocate. And there are plenty of candidates running for governor and for secretary of state, Republican candidates in various primaries around the country, who are now explicitly in favor of state legislators having that power.

[13:25:19]

So I think it's gotten more dangerous, not less. At one point I would add to the very good point you make is, among conservative commentators, I would say, respectable places, "The Wall Street Journal," "National Review," columnists for "The New York Times," it's kind of unfashionably -- unfashionable to be too alarmed about this.

It's kind of uncool to say, you know what? We have a real problem here of possible election subversion, and people need to rally against this, pass legislation, call it out, ask leaders to step forward. Oh, no, it's only -- it's just Trump being Trump, and a little bit of Republican senators being a little quiet, but don't get too alarmed.

BROWN: Yes.

KRISTOL: That's now kind of the fashionable position among an awful lot of conservatives who aren't really pro-Trump, but they're certainly against being too alarmed about what's happening.

And I think that's also very dangerous.

BROWN: But what I say to those people is, you were saying that as well when Trump was saying all of this about the election in 2020, before it happened: Hey, if it's -- if I lose, it's because it's rigged. And you were saying, oh, that's just Trump being Trump.

And then there was an insurrection, right?

KRISTOL: And we know what he tried to do with the Justice Department and the Defense Department.

BROWN: And now we're finding out all the moves he was making behind the scenes to try to get his DOJ to subvert the election.

So to those people who are saying, oh, this is Trump being Trump, we already know what can happen, right? And you have experts that are saying -- that worked with Trump. And I just interviewed Fiona Hill yesterday, a former adviser to Trump on Russia, who said that, essentially, that could just be a dress rehearsal and that democracy is done if he runs again in 2024 because of the concerns of what's going to happen with future elections.

It is not something that should be swept under the rug.

But, quickly, I do want to ask while we have you here, what do you make of this tight race for governor in Virginia and how the candidates' respective links to Biden and Trump are factoring in, because you have thrown your support behind McAuliffe in Virginia?

KRISTOL: Right. And I think a lot of -- some Republicans in Virginia, some of whom voted for Biden, because they couldn't abide Trump, want to tell themselves that Glenn Youngkin, the Republican gubernatorial candidate, isn't like Trump.

He won't really distance himself from Trump, but he's not going to be like Trump. And, again, I think that's a kind of wishful thinking, where I just think, personally, you have to draw a line at people who will not denounce the election subversion, because it's not just about telling the truth about the past. It's about the future.

BROWN: It's about the future. And we didn't even get to the number two in the House, Republican Steve Scalise, not admitting yesterday that the election wasn't stolen. 7

Bill Kristol, thank you for that discussion. Appreciate it.

KRISTOL: Thanks, Pamela.

BROWN: Well, she was shot and killed by police as she stormed the U.S. Capitol with a violent mob. So why is former President Trump working so hard to paint Ashli Babbitt as a martyr?

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