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Deadline Day for January 6 Probe, Bannon, Patel Not Expected to Appear; Rep. Pramila Jayapal (D-WA) Says Progressives Are Holding Firm in Demands; FDA Vaccine Advisers to Vote on Moderna, J&J Boosters. Aired 10-10:30a ET

Aired October 14, 2021 - 10:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

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JIM SCIUTTO, CNN NEWSROOM: A good Thursday morning to you. It's almost Friday. I'm Jim Sciutto.

ERICA HILL, CNN NEWSROOM: I love a good Friday eve. I'm Erica Hill. Good morning.

It is also decision time for the January 6 select committee. Will lawmakers pursue criminal contempt charges now that a pair of President Trump's former aides are expected to refuse to appear for today's scheduled depositions?

CNN has learned that both Steve Bannon and former Defense Department Official Kash Patel will likely defy subpoenas which have called on them, of course, upon to testify.

SCIUTTO: Overnight, Bannon's attorney sent a letter informing the committee Bannon will not provide testimony, as he's been subpoenaed to do, or documents as of now. The lawyer saying, quote, we will comply with the directions of the courts when and if they rule on these claims of both executive and attorney/client privileges. The committee is not just buying that legal argument.

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REP. ADAM SCHIFF (D-CA): The reason why some of these witnesses, people like Steve Bannon, who have been public about their contempt for Congress, feel they can get away with it as for four years they did. Steve would never be held in contempt, never prosecuted by the Trump Justice Department. But those days are over.

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SCIUTTO: Lawmakers are also pressing forward with new subpoenas. The latest is for Jeffrey Clark. He's a former Trump DOJ official who was integral to efforts to helping then-President Trump overturn the 2020 election.

We begin in Washington. CNN Law Enforcement Correspondent Whitney Wild is there. So, Whitney, Patel is not appearing. I mean, he said he's engaging with the committee. I don't what does engaging mean if a witness is refusing a subpoena to testify.

WHITNEY WILD, CNN LAW ENFORCEMENT CORRESPONDENT: That's the question we've been asking ourselves since we saw these responses indicating they were engaging with the committee. In general, our understanding is it means that the clients are at least having conversations through counsel to the committee. However, it certainly does not mean that they are appearing for depositions, and it does not mean that they are handing over documents necessarily. So, these are all the outstanding questions at this point.

But what we know is that there is apparently a growing reluctance for these very close Trump allies to go through what's being asked of them through this subpoena without a lot of pushback. I mean, it's very clear that they're going to make this as difficult as possible for the House select committee. However, as you point out, the House select committee is prepared to move forward with an aggressive way, and that includes criminal contempt. Jim and Erica?

HILL: So, we'll be watching for that. Meantime, I know, Whitney, you also have some new information this morning about some early warnings ahead of the attack on the Capitol, ahead of the insurrection on January 6th. What were those warnings and where did they go?

WILD: Well, specifically, it was an email that was sent from a member of the FBI's the Washington Field Division to a member of the Secret Service. Basically, it was a brief summary of another briefing given by the Metropolitan Police Department. So, MPD, the local police department here, had told its law enforcement partners this is the intelligence we're working with. The hotels are booked. There are people on social media saying that -- encouraging others to come to Washington, D.C., armed.

Further, as a reminder, law enforcement partners MPD recovered eight firearms at a pro-Trump rally -- related to a pro-Trump rally, I should say, in November of 2020. There were five arrests surrounding that event. However, they also note that that was not the case in December, that it was much quieter, no firearms recovered then.

But the point here is that there was this briefing with law enforcement partners, so everybody was supposed to be on the same page. Then a member of the FBI's Washington Field Office passed that information along to another law enforcement partner.

The overall conclusion here, based on this email we have, is that they still, with all this evidence, did not identify a specific and credible threat. Now, we know that that was a severe misread of the situation, and it is one more piece of evidence to show that while law enforcement was on the same page in terms of the information they were sharing, they were very much not reading carefully.

To follow that metaphor as far as it can go, the reality is they had this information and just didn't take it seriously enough.

SCIUTTO: Let's hope they do more so next time. Whitney Wild on the Hill, thanks so much. HILL: Joining us now to discuss, Elliot Williams, CNN Legal Analyst and former Deputy Assistant Attorney General, and Errol Louis, CNN Political Commentator and Political Anchor for Spectrum News. He's also the host of the You Decide podcast. Good to see you both this morning.

Elliot, I want to start with where we're at and what we just heard from Adam Schiff, where he said, you know, in terms of Steve Bannon, he could drag this on.

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He would never be held in contempt, never with prosecuted by the Trump Justice Department, but those days are over. That's a clear message from the congressman. But I wonder, Elliot, do you see signs that things are different under a Biden Justice Department that you will see different action from Attorney General Merrick Garland?

ELLIOT WILLIAMS, CNN LEGAL ANALYST: Quite possibly. So, Erica, what you would normally do is give the witness an opportunity to at least show up. Now, look, common sense dictates, and every indication that we have is that Steve Bannon is not going to, but it benefits Congress when they go into court eventually, if they do, to say that they called this witness in, he chose not to comply and therefore he is acting in violation of a subpoena.

So, they now have two options, a few options available. The two big ones are, number one, they can go to the Justice Department and seek a criminal penalty. Now, look, that doesn't get you the testimony. That just punishes him for breaking the law. And that's leverage that Congress could have. They can also sue him to enforce the validity of the subpoena. And they're free to take both of those steps. You sort of punish him in one sense but also try to compel him in the other sense. And you have a far more favorable Justice Department than you did before. And we'll just have to see what happens over the next six or eight hours as this is going to plays out.

SCIUTTO: Errol Louis, I am curious about where this ultimately leads, right. Because beyond those support players, the question is what did the former president attempt to do and can Congress prove it, right? In effect, they had eight hours of testimony from the former acting A.G., Jeffrey Rosen, yesterday. That's key because he's one of the officials, the rare ones here, who stood up and said, I'm not going to be a part of this. Jeffrey Clark was willing to play ball, right? And they're trying to go after him now.

But does the committee have the tools to establish via testimony and documents exactly what the president tried to do here?

ERROL LOUIS, CNN POLITICAL ANALYST: I think they can get closer, Jim. I don't know if they're ever going to get precisely what happened because this president is long experienced at delaying process so that he doesn't have to give up information until it's no longer relevant. And so this could be a year or two from now.

On the other hand, politically, that works against Donald Trump's interests, because if we wants to continue to control the Republican Party and prepare to run for president again, when we finally do inch our way toward the truth, it could really come out at an inopportune moment for him. So, one way or another, the truth is going to come out or as close as we can get to it obviously without the help of Donald Trump and with the sycophants who are going to put their own careers and legal status in jeopardy in trying to defend him.

We've seen this play out over and over again. In the end, we find out what happened. In the end, we found out what happened with a lot of the other misdeeds of that administration.

HILL: Elliot, Jim mentioned the subpoena for Jeffrey Clark, the former Justice Department official, who was willing to play ball with the president, even went so far as to draft this letter falsely claiming that the Justice Department had found evidence of voting irregularities in Georgia. What does that open him up to potentially in terms of criminal charges?

WILLIAMS: There's a few different areas of exposure for him. Number one, potential criminal charges, election-related crimes, fraud- related crimes, dishonest statements to other federal officials crimes, but also potential bar sanctions. Even if you don't rise to level of charging him with a crime -- look, the Senate Judiciary Committee just put out a report suggesting that the District of Columbia investigate his bar license, because as a lawyer, you can't make false representations in your capacity as a lawyer on a court or another body.

So, both of those things, he's certainly open up to. They are not frivolous. They would not be frivolous charges. So we'll just have to wait and see.

SCIUTTO: Errol Louis, forgive my skeptical eye here, we've been in investigation land here with Trump for half a decade now, right? And many just don't go anywhere. He's expert, as you say, stretching out the process and the people who work from him are following his lead on that. Of the many investigations, you have got January 6 but you also have Georgia, for instance, looking into possible criminal activity regarding interference in the election count there. What do you see as having the most legs, if any, frankly, of these investigations?

LOUIS: Don't forget, the investigation of the Trump Organization, and the fact that one of the top aides to Donald Trump was brought into court in handcuffs not that long ago.

SCIUTTO: But he's not named, right? His company is named in that. The former president is not named in that investigation.

LOUIS: Well, yes. But, I mean, listen, certainly, if we want to simply figure out whether or not Donald Trump personally as opposed to his administration, his presidency, his business interests and so forth, is being, I guess, targeted for accountability, yes, it may end up any old place.

[10:10:00] He certainly is expert at throwing his aides and associates under the bus in the pursuit of escaping his own personal liability or culpability.

But here, again, to the extent that we're talking about politics, if he wants to run for president as somebody who had a whole bunch of his aides to go prison, who had a lot of his aides sort of clearly lying to Congress, drawing out process, playing with the rule of law itself, frankly, in the free transfer of power during our elections, if he wants to take that to the people as a candidate in the future, that's on him.

HILL: Well, I mean, I think we know how that would go if he took that to the people as a candidate because he would say it was all a lie anyway. Errol Louis, Elliot Williams, I always appreciate you both joining us. Thank you.

SCIUTTO: All right. This morning, familiar headline, negotiations ongoing on Capitol Hill over two major pieces of legislation still ongoing. Congresswoman Pramimla Jayapal, chair of the congressional progressive caucus says progressives are holding firm in their demands not to cut policies from that original proposal.

CNN Capitol Hill Reporter Melanie Zanona joins me now with more.

Melanie, I've asked you so many times. You've had answered the question many times, are they going anywhere? And is the October 31st deadline now getting wobbly?

MELANIE ZANONA, CNN CAPITOL HILL REPORTER: Well, to answer your first question, no, they're not really getting anywhere. There have been no signs of real progress or breakthroughs. They haven't even agreed on a top-line number yet, yet alone resolve this litany of policy differences that they still have.

And to answer your question about the October 31st deadline, this self-imposed deadline to wrap it up, it's looking increasingly likely that they're going to blow by it. I mean, even some Democrats are starting to soften on that. Just listen to what Pramila Jayapal, the head of the congressional progressive caucus, had to say about that.

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REP. PRAMILA JAYAPAL (D-WA): I think we're trying to work as fast as we can, but we're waiting on two people to tell us what they would agree on and what they want.

Would we like to get it done by October 31st? Of course. But we want more is to get it done, get it done right past both bills and get them to the president's desk.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ZANONA: So, look, Democrats, they are working with a sense of urgency, but they're also not trying to rush these critical decisions about how and where to cut. SCIUTTO: They do know this is a circular firing squad. Do they, politically? I mean, is there any panic within the party about the delay?

ZANONA: Yes. I mean, absolutely, especially among these frontline Democrats who are vulnerable in the next election. They still want that bipartisan infrastructure bill to pass, which is sort of just being held in limbo. But it's looking like they're talking past each other and not to each other, and I think that's where a lot of the issue is right now.

SCIUTTO: Terry McAuliffe is nervous in Virginia. Melanie Zanona, thanks very much.

ZANONA: Thank you.

HILL: All right. Still to come, right now, the FDA vaccine advisers are meeting at this very moment to discuss the data. They're going to look at whether to recommend booster shots to millions of Americans, discussing Moderna and J&J's vaccine. So, what should you be watching for? We'll take a look at that, next.

Plus, as you have likely noticed, prices are rising on just about everything, from eggs to washing machines. What is being hit with the highest price hike? That one is easy, gasoline. What you can expect at the pump moving forward.

SCIUTTO: Later this hour, tensions inside Netflix, how reporting of Netflix CEO Ted Sarandos digging on his defense of Dave Chappelle and his comedy special is causing backlash inside the company.

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HILL: Next hour, President Biden set to give an update on the administration's COVID-19 response. The White House is touting, quote, tremendous progress in its vaccine campaign, noting cases are down in large part they say due to mandates.

SCIUTTO: Right now, a meeting with FDA vaccine advisers is underway to tackle another question, that is whether to authorize booster doses of the Moderna vaccine. The panel also take a first look at data from a new NIH study that shows that mixing and matching boosters is safe and actually does create a strong immune response, gives some options there.

Here to discuss, Primary Care Physician and Public Health Specialist Saju Matthew. So good to have you on, Doctor, this morning.

Can I just ask you, before we get to the mixing and matching question, can you just give us your view on where you stand on boosters, right? Because every day, there's something new about that. I mean, the data seem to be pointing to it increases immunity and immunity wanes several months after initial full vaccination. In your view, should there be kind of coalescing of minds here to say that, yes, boosters are a good idea for general population?

DR. SAJU MATTHEW, PRIMARY CARE PHYSICIAN: Yes. Good morning, Jim. I've always been a physician that believes that we need to keep protecting those that are vaccinated. We know for a fact that with time, the vaccine immunity wanes. That's a given. That's not surprising. And with a lot of people in this country that are overweight, obesity is a pandemic as well or an epidemic in this country, we need to continue to protect them, also the immunocompromised.

And I think that the FDA's ruling, giving that opening for people that have co-morbid conditions, people 65 and older and health care workers like myself, it give us a chance to have that opportunity to discuss with our physicians about booster shots.

But, remember, while booster shots are key, Jim, the most important thing is to get the 60 million, 70 million people who have not been vaccinated, we need to get them their shot as well.

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HILL: And you've touched on this with us in the past, but in terms of that number, right, in terms of the unvaccinated, when there is so much focus on the boosters, which is an important part of the conversation, but when that is dominating the conversation, what's the impact on folks who are still vaccine hesitant that that you've found?

MATTHEW: Yes. Good morning, Erica. I do worry about that quite a bit because it's almost like the unvaccinated, they want to kind of hide behind the cover of this conversation about vaccinating the already vaccinated, boosting them. And I think what ends up happening is sometimes we lose focus on the fact that until we get the 60 million people vaccinated, we're not going to crush this virus.

I give this analogy all the time at work, Erica, which is you're not going to go into a war zone without wearing a vest. The vest protects your heart and your lungs, even if there are gunshot wounds, I may get a gunshot wound to my leg, but if I can protect my heart and my lungs, I will survive. That is how a vaccine works.

And a lot of people who are anti-vaxxers or vaccine hesitant always say, well, Dr. Matthew, you still can get an infection if you're vaccinated. True, but these breakthrough infections are mild. So, we still need to focus on the unvaccinated.

SCIUTTO: The trouble is that vest, as you describe it, has been politicized to the point where politicians will say this is an issue of freedom. You don't have to wear that vest walking into the firefight, right? You don't have to get the vaccine in the midst of a pandemic.

Folks have been trying for months to convince those people. And if that rock doesn't move, what do you do? Where are we left? Are we left with living with this going forward, right, that we've lost the chance to crush it? MATTHEW: Right. I mean, that's a good point, Jim. And I'm telling you, I'm not giving up. I know people will listen to me on T.V., like, Dr. Matthew, aren't you tired of talking about the unvaccinated? No, I'm not because it's the unvaccinated that is going to keep pulling us behind. We're the only country in the world, Jim, that has free, safe, and effective vaccines and the FDA is talking right now, as we have this conversation, about mixing and matching, which will also make it much easier for people to get vaccinated.

So, we need to use this opportunity to crush this virus heading into winter, where the virus tends to misbehave, and with the holidays around the corner, listen, I'm not going to get tired of convincing the unvaccinated that they must get vaccinated.

HILL: And all of that starts with a conversation, right? So, our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta actually sat down for a three-hour conversation with Podcast Host Joe Rogan, and they tackled a number of these issues of the many that really stood out to us.

I just want to have you listen to this moment, because I think it's important to get an answer on this. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE ROGAN, PODCAST HOST: You know what I think you should do? I think you should get vaccinated and then get sick.

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: What?

ROGAN: This is why. Because then you got -- the vaccine protects you from a bad infection and then you get COVID so then you get the robust immunity that's imparted from having the actual disease itself, which is far more complex and comprehensive than you're getting from the vaccine that targets one specific protein, right?

GUPTA: You can make that argument, I think.

ROGAN: Yes, so that's the move. Get vaccinated, let it wane and hang around with a bunch of dirty people.

GUPTA: For you, Joe Rogan.

ROGAN: Yes.

GUPTA: You says you had it. So, not get one shot of the vaccine?

ROGAN: No.

GUPTA: Why not?

ROGAN: Because I have better immunity than I would if I was vaccinated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

HILL: Can you clear that up, Dr. Matthew? Does someone who has had and recovered from coronavirus have better immunity than a person who's had even just one shot of the vaccine?

MATTHEW: Yes. So, let me try to clarify that. First of all, kudos to Dr. Gupta for showing up in the Lion's Den. I think that was very brave of him. We must approach and talk to people that don't necessarily agree with us.

So, when it comes to natural immunity, Erica, this is the deal. There is absolutely no doubt that you have some protection. But the problem is we don't know how long that protection lasts. Studies show that the vaccine actually jumpstarts the antibodies so you get a robust response, you get a much higher antibody level, and the vaccine also protects you from a wide variety of variants.

So, while, you know, he is right that a natural infection will give you some natural immunity, you don't want to get this virus. Even after you're vaccinated, you want to be safe because getting COVID has more consequences than just dying and being hospitalized.

We talk about one-third of people who have COVID that have long COVID, you know, long haulers, and I see them at work. Their heart rate goes up, they have brain fog. So we're always focusing on death, dying, and hospitalization, but there's a completely different side of patients who are suffering, who are going to be handicapped and disabled from long COVID.

HILL: Dr. Saju Matthew, always great to have you with us, thank you.

MATTHEW: Thank you.

[10:25:00]

SCIUTTO: Still ahead this hour, as President Biden tries to right the ship on supply chain issues, Americans are facing rising prices on a whole bunch of stuff, children's shoes to gasoline. What's happening specifically with gas prices, that's next.

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SCIUTTO: This morning President Biden is facing more pressure from U.S. Business leaders to take more steps to address the global supply chain crisis.

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It affects all of us.