Return to Transcripts main page

CNN Newsroom

Jan 6th Committee Pursues Criminal Contempt Referral for Bannon; NFL Under Pressure to Release Emails from Washington Investigation; FDA Vaccine Advisers Currently Meeting to Discuss Moderna Booster; Dr. Sanjay Gupta Sits Down with Joe Rogan; Kyrie Irving Admits He's Not Vaccinated, Team Says He Can't Play Until He Meets Eligibility Requirements. Aired 1:30-2p ET

Aired October 14, 2021 - 13:30   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[13:33:45]

ANA CABRERA, CNN HOST: We have breaking news coming from the January 6th committee investigating what happened with the insurrection.

I want to go straight to Ryan Nobles now on Capitol Hill.

What are you learning, Ryan?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Ana, this is a significant development. The January 6th Select Committee just issuing a statement in the last few minutes where they have announced that they are moving forward with a criminal contempt referral of Steve Bannon.

The former White House counsellor, who outside of the White House, had become a big proponent of the Big Lie through various media appearances.

And his support for the January 6th Stop the Steal rally which, of course, served as the prelude to the insurrection that took place here at the capitol.

Of course, Bannon was subpoenaed a few weeks ago by this committee. He was asked to submit documents last week. And then was supposed to appear today for a private deposition.

And Bannon has been very defiant, almost from the get-go. He told the committee in two separate letters that he was working with the former President Donald Trump to defend executive privilege.

And that meant that he did not have to comply with their requests. Well, the committee, obviously, feels differently.

Let me read a little bit of the statement that was issued by the committee chairman, Bennie Thompson, here in the last few minutes:

[13:35:04]

"The Select Committee will not tolerate the defiance of our subpoena, so we will move forward with proceedings to refer Mr. Bannon for criminal contempt. I've notified the Select Committee that we will convene for a business meeting Tuesday evening to vote on adopting a contempt report."

Ana, the timing of this is very important. This is a process. It's not as if Bennie Thompson can just wave his finger and Steve Bannon is then put under arrest.

What will have to happen first is what is mentioned in this statement, they will have a business meeting just of the Select Committee on Tuesday night where they will vote to adopt this referral.

It will then go to the full House of Representatives. And the House of Representatives will have to vote on it.

From there, it will be referred to the Department of Justice, who then can execute the criminal contempt charge.

So this is significant though, because it shows that the committee, as they have told us, you know, quite frequently over the past couple of days, that they are not messing around in terms of their commitment to trying to get these witnesses to comply.

Bannon has been the most vocal in his direct opposition of their requests, which is part of why you see them moving ahead in this fashion today -- Ana?

CABRERA: They warned they were going to do it and said they would do it quickly. And sounds like they are putting that into action.

Ryan Nobles, stand by.

I want to bring in Elie Honig. He's a former federal and state prosecutor, our CNN senior legal analyst.

We'll pick up on the conversation that we were having earlier, Elie, because we discussed that this was an expected move. And now that it's been done, remind us what the next steps are and how quickly this could move.

ELIE HONIG, CNN SENIOR LEGAL ANALYST: Ana, this is a powerful statement by the committee. They are not messing around. They're not playing games.

You and I discussed about 20 minutes ago that Steve Bannon was the most-likely person they would be focusing on.

So the first step in the procedure is the committee has to vote to hold Steve Bannon in contempt. And then the whole House has to vote to hold Steve Bannon in contempt.

At that point, it shifts over to the Justice Department. The decision- making, at that point, is no longer up Congress. It is to Merrick Garland.

That will be an extraordinarily important and difficult decision.

And for those wondering, why Steve Bannon? What makes him stand out?

There's a couple of things. One, he's outright defied this committee. Some of the other ones -- we've heard Kash Patel, Mark Meadows are negotiating and engaging with the committee.

Bannon's position from the beginning has been, I'm out, I'm not giving you anything.

The other thing from Steve Bannon is his legal claims and defenses are the weakest because he was not an executive branch employee at the time. So any executive privilege claim he may raise here is just completely ridiculous.

CABRERA: So if he does, you know, face these criminal contempt charges, if the DOJ does, in fact, move forward to prosecution, if a judge then, you know, moves this up to the top of the heap -- I mean, this has not been successful in the past.

We did, you know, our checking, and it looks like it was the Reagan administration the last time a member or an official was actually taken all the way through the process to trial. And then, a jury ultimately said not guilty in that particular case.

What's the likelihood that Bannon actually is held accountable here?

HONIG: These are difficult charges to make.

First of all, it is a federal criminal misdemeanor to commit contempt of Congress. The maximum punishment is one year.

Interestingly, there's actually a one-month minimum. Meaning, if you're convicted, you do have to go to prison for a month.

On the surface of it, Steve Bannon has no defense. He got served with a subpoena and he utterly defied it.

What he's going to do is raise some of the same arguments. We'll try executive privilege. His lawyer, in the letter, said he'll try attorney-client privilege. I don't see how that even begins to get any traction.

The one thing Steve Bannon does have here, that is an all-purpose bailout for him, is the Fifth Amendment.

He does have the right to take the Fifth Amendment against testifying, if he may incriminate himself, and he certainly may. Look, January 6th is under criminal investigation.

If he takes the Fifth, obviously, it looks terrible. There's a real appearance issue.

But at that point, you can't force him to testify unless you immunize him. And that's a whole other process.

But it's almost impossible to bring a criminal charge if someone has a legitimate Fifth Amendment right. So we'll see if Steve Bannon uses that countermove here.

CABRERA: Do you think that his testimony is critical to the investigation?

HONIG: Sure. He was reportedly in Trump's ear from the time of January 6th, leading up to January 6th. I mean, he's been one of Donald Trump's closest political advisers, really from before the 2016 election.

So, yes, and there's plenty of evidence that Steve Bannon was centrally involved here.

The committee said they chose Bannon for a reason. So I think that there's a reason that they have picked this fight. And there's a reason they are willing to escalate it to the next level.

CABRERA: Obviously, it sends a message, too, to other people who may be getting these subpoenas.

Elie Honig, I appreciate it. Thanks so much for being here with us.

HONIG: You bet.

[13:40:53]

CABRERA: Ryan Nobles, thanks for your reporting.

Our other story this hour, the NFL facing growing pressure to release documents from the investigation that led to Jon Gruden's resignation as head coach of the Las Vegas Raiders.

Leaked emails revealed misogynistic and racist language in correspondence with other league insiders.

Now, the Players Association wants all 650,000 emails and other documents that were part of this investigation to be made public.

The probe was initially launched to investigate what then the Washington Redskins after dozens of women accused the club of fostering an abusive and toxic workplace.

And besides crude language, "The New York Times" reporters investigators actually discovered emails containing naked pictures of Washington cheerleaders.

Joining us now is Melanie Coburn. She is a former cheerleader and squad marketing director for the Washington Football Team.

And thanks so much for being here.

MELANIE COBURN, FORMER CHEERLEADER & SQUAD MARKETING DIRECTOR, WASHINGTON FOOTBALL TEAM: Ana, thanks for having me.

CABRERA: There's been growing pressure for the NFL to be more transparent and release their documents in the investigation. So far the NFL isn't budging. Where do you think this is headed? COBURN: You know, I'm not sure. I know that there has been a lot of

backlash recently, in the last few days, since the emails have surfaced.

Obviously, I'm a part of a big organization of alumni. And a lot of these women that I worked and graced the sidelines with are devastated to hear this news.

They had no idea the extent to which these inappropriate, indecent photos of them were leaked, which in-boxes in the NFL received them, and how far these reach.

CABRERA: NFL Commissioner Roger Goodell hasn't made any public remarks since the Jon Gruden emails went out there. What message do you think his silence sends?

COBURN: I mean, we feel invisible. It's how we felt since this investigation was closed with an oral report.

I'm actually part of a group of former employees. There's 40 of us represented that -- you know, this is more than just the cheerleaders. These are people who, men and women, were mistreated and abused. There's terrible sexual harassment within that organization.

And we've had no answers. There's been no answers from the NFL. We've requested meetings. And there's no written report.

My petition I started in February has always been for transparency and accountability. We want answers. We want that report public. It deserves to be public.

These women deserve to know. The men and women of the organization, past, present and future, deserve to know the truth.

CABRERA: I know you were one of the whistleblowers. You personally feel victimized by what you experienced. What makes you most upset about all of this?

COBURN: Most upset about all of this is that there's no written report. We all relived this trauma that we've experienced over decades and all for nothing.

There was over 122 of us that came forward and participated in that investigation hoping that there would be accountability, and there hasn't been.

CABRERA: Well, the league, since their investigation did fine the Washington Football Team $10 million.

Bruce Allen, the team president, part of the email exchanges, no longer works there. He was fired before the NFL investigation was ended. Jon Gruden is out.

And owner, Daniel Snyder, agreed to have his wife take over the day- to-day operations of the team and also made recommendations related to training, diversity, recording of workplace misconduct and other issues.

That's not enough?

COBURN: A $10 million fine would be like a couple hundred dollars to me. It's a slap on the wrist for them.

He apparently voluntarily stepped back to give her the co-CEO position.

And she actually was on a podcast with Adam Schefter recently, where she basically dismissed us, called our investigation ridiculous, and just belittled us and made us feel invisible.

CABRERA: What is going to make you feel satisfied that meaningful action has been taken and that people are being held accountable?

COBURN: I think that the leadership needs to be held accountable. I think that Dan Snyder has to answer for his actions.

I think that the information in that report, based on what I know from the stories that I do know of, and my own personal stories, he should not be in a leadership position in a team within the NFL.

CABRERA: Well, I really appreciate you taking the time to speak with us. Thank you so much, Melanie Coburn, for sharing your story and your perspective on all of this.

COBURN: Thank you, Ana. I appreciate you sharing our stories.

[13:44:38]

Our own Dr. Sanjay Gupta sat down with notable vaccine skeptic, Joe Rogan. In a wide-ranging three-hour interview, Rogan explained how he almost got the vaccine but ultimately didn't. Why Rogan says he still won't get the shot. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

CABRERA: Turning now to the pandemic, and a critical meeting under way right now on boosters. Hours from now, FDA vaccine advisers will vote on whether to recommend a booster shot for the Moderna vaccine.

I'm going to get right to CNN's senior medical correspondent, Elizabeth Cohen, who's following today's meeting for us.

[13:50:01]

Elizabeth, what are we expecting?

DR. ELIZABETH COHEN, CNN SENIOR MEDICAL CORRESPONDENT: Ana, you might remember that last month, this same discussion went on about the Pfizer booster. And now, many folks who are more than six months past their second Pfizer shot are eligible for a booster.

So, the discussion today is about Moderna recipients. It's a very similar discussion with a few twists. Let's take a look at what Moderna is asking the FDA to do.

So, Moderna is asking for authorization for a half-dose booster. They say that that's plenty. That's enough. That gets antibodies going for people six months after their second shot.

But those people have to be over age 65 or have certain kinds of health conditions or have certain risky jobs or living situations.

For example, maybe they're a health care worker. That puts them at risk for contracting COVID. Maybe they live in some kind of a group nursing home or some other kind of group situation.

It's an interesting twist, also, with Moderna. It turns out that Moderna's -- the strength of Moderna's vaccine doesn't seem to wane as quickly as the strength of Pfizer's vaccine.

And so Moderna may be a victim of its own success here as it says, hey, our two vaccines really did quite well, but it did wane a bit so we would like to have boosters.

Now, I want to make one thing clear. You know, for the vast majority of people, two doses really is quite good and continues to be quite good.

This is about folks who are six months past their second dose and who fall into one of these categories -- Ana?

CABRERA: And there are other questions regarding whether you can mix and match booster shots. There's new research on this, right? What do we know, and how soon could we get some guidance on that?

COHEN: There is. Well, hopefully, there will be guidance soon because, if Moderna gets permission to do boosters, and then this discussion tomorrow about Johnson & Johnson boosters, that's a lot of people. So there will be a lot of discussion about mixing and matching.

Here's what happened with this study. This was a study done by the National Institutes of Health. It was a relatively small study, just over 450 people.

What they found is that folks who originally got Johnson & Johnson, they actually got a better response if they had a Pfizer or Moderna booster.

In other words, getting Johnson & Johnson first and then a booster with Pfizer or Moderna seemed to be better than getting Johnson & Johnson both times.

Folks who got Pfizer or Moderna the first time around, it seems that they did well with any booster -- Ana?

CABRERA: Elizabeth Cohen, thank you very much for sharing all of that.

COHEN: Thanks.

Podcast host, Joe Rogan, who has come under fire for criticizing the COVID vaccine, now says he almost got one.

Our chief medical correspondent, Dr. Sanjay Gupta, sat down with Rogan for more than three hours on Rogan's podcast.

Rogan says he had an appointment to get the shot but, in the two weeks before he got it, the J&J vaccine was put on pause over concerns about blood clots. That made him nervous. He decided not to do it.

He did admit to Dr. Gupta that he thinks it's a good idea for vulnerable people to get vaccinated. But he's worried about the lack of long-term data for kids.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. SANJAY GUPTA, CNN CHIEF MEDICAL ANALYST: The only way we can know long-term stuff is with the passage of time.

JOE ROGAN, PODCAST HOST: That's terrifying for parents.

GUPTA: Well, it is.

ROGAN: The idea that your son could get vaccinated and, most likely, he would have been fine if he got COVID and that your son could catch myocarditis and have permanent heart problems.

GUPTA: Well, I don't know that we can say the person will be fine if they get COVID, Joe.

ROGAN: A young boy?

(CROSSTALK)

ROGAN: Most young boys with no --

(CROSSTALK)

GUPTA: When you say, "fine," you mean what? They're not going to die?

ROGAN: Like me. I had COVID. I'm fine.

GUPTA: Yes, you look like you're a strong as an ox. Yes, I give you that.

But you know, you get these teenagers who will have these long COVID naps. You get --

(CROSSTALK)

ROGAN: What does that mean?

GUPTA: Just they're tired all the time. They get these sort of long- hauler-type symptoMs. Less so in kids.

But you know, when you talk about 33 percent of people having persistent symptoms that last months, I just feel like we define -- I think we're allowed to have a nuanced conversation about this. (END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA:: Joe Rogan had his own bout with COVID in August.

He asked Sanjay why people with natural immunity should get vaccinated. And Sanjay shared data from a recent study that shows unvaccinated people who already had COVID were more than twice as likely to be reinfected as those who had the shot.

So again, the guidance, all the advice out there from medical experts is everybody who is eligible should get vaccinated, including people who have been previously infected.

Brooklyn Nets superstar, Kyrie Irving, is speaking out and for the first time confirming he has not been vaccinated. Until now, the seven-time all-star wouldn't publicly disclose his vaccination status.

But earlier this week, Irving's team said he wouldn't be allowed to play or even practice until he meets local vaccine requirements in New York City.

[13:55:00]

Here's what he said on Instagram Live.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KYRIE IRVING, BROOKLYN NETS BASKETBALL PLAYER: Don't believe that I'm retiring. Don't believe that, you know, I'm going to give up this game for a vaccine mandate.

What would you do? You know, if you felt uncomfortable going into the season, when you were promised that you would have exemptions or that you didn't have to be forced to get the vaccine?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CABRERA: Again, Kyrie Irving, still not vaccinated.

Thank you so much for being with us today. See you back here tomorrow at 1:00 p.m. Eastern.

The news continues next with Alisyn and Victor.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

[14:00:00]