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Moderna and Johnson & Johnson Booster Shots?; House Moves to Hold Steve Bannon in Contempt. Aired 2-2:30p ET

Aired October 14, 2021 - 14:00   ET

THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT. THIS COPY MAY NOT BE IN ITS FINAL FORM AND MAY BE UPDATED.

[14:00:30]

ANNOUNCER: This is CNN breaking news.

ALISYN CAMEROTA, CNN HOST: Hello, everyone. Thanks for joining us on NEWSROOM. I'm Alisyn Camerota.

VICTOR BLACKWELL, CNN HOST: I'm Victor Blackwell.

We're beginning with the breaking news in the investigation into the January 6 Capitol attack. The House select committee just announced that they will move to hold former Trump adviser Steve Bannon in criminal contempt for refusing to comply with his subpoena.

CAMEROTA: Bannon was scheduled to testify today, but his lawyer told the committee that Bannon would not provide testimony or documents until the committee reaches an agreement with former President Trump over executive privilege or until a court weighs in.

We know President Trump has been urging his loyalists to ignore the committee's subpoenas.

CNN congressional correspondent Ryan Nobles joins us now from Capitol Hill with this breaking news.

So what happens now, Ryan?

RYAN NOBLES, CNN CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Alisyn and Victor, this is the committee making good on their promise that if Steve Bannon and others did not comply with their subpoena requests, that they would move forward with a criminal contempt referral.

So the committee is scheduled to meet next Tuesday. That's where they will formally vote out this contempt referral. Then the entire House of Representatives will have to vote on it. And then it gets referred to the Justice Department to take action.

And what Bennie Thompson, the chairman of the select committee, made clear in his statement when he announced the committee's decision to move forward in this respect is that they are not going to allow their potential targets that they're looking for information from to get away with just ignoring the committee's requests, specifically when the committee asks them through subpoena.

And this is what he said -- quote -- "The select committee will not tolerate defiance of our subpoenas. So we must move forward with proceedings to refer Mr. Bannon for criminal contempt. I have notified the select committee that we will convene for a business meeting Tuesday evening to vote on adopting a contempt report."

And, of course, Bannon's defiance has been so public and so bold in some respects. He's sent the committee two letters now saying that he does not believe that he should be compelled to comply with the subpoena because he's working with the former President Donald Trump to defend executive privilege.

But that claim is pretty weak, especially when you consider that Bannon was not any part of the executive branch, where much of the information that the select committee is looking for comes from, that period of time between the election on November 3 and then, of course, the events of January 6.

So the committee, as they promised, not messing around, moving forward with this criminal contempt almost immediately after Bannon defied their subpoena -- Alisyn and Victor.

BLACKWELL: All right, Ryan, I also understand that you're getting information about the other associates who had been subpoenaed, Mark Meadows, Kash Patel, Dan Scavino. What are you learning?

NOBLES: Yes, that's right.

Remember, there were four individuals that were scheduled for depositions this week, Bannon, of course, perhaps the most high- profile, but also Mark Meadows, the former chief of staff, Dan Scavino, the deputy chief of staff, and Kash Patel, who was a DOD official at the Pentagon on the day of January 6.

The committee treating them much differently. In terms of Meadows and Patel, I'm told that their depositions have been given a short postponement is how the committee is describing it because those two are engaging with the committee. We don't know what that level of engagement is, but they are at least talking to the committee and they're trying to find some common ground where they can get the information they're looking for.

As for Dan Scavino, his is a different situation, because, as you will remember, we broke the news that they were having a difficult time serving him with a subpoena. They were only able to serve that subpoena last Friday. So, because of that delay with the subpoena, they have also delayed the date of his deposition.

Now, it's not clear when these depositions have been postponed to, but keep in mind, even though the committee has given them this grace, they have also said that they're not going to fool around. This is kind of the situation they ran into with Jeffrey Clark, the former DOJ official who they subpoenaed yesterday.

They were in negotiations with Clark to try and come to some sort of an agreement. When he didn't comply, that's when they slapped the subpoena on. So, the postponements, they're short for now, but they could become criminal contempt down the road if they don't find areas to agree on finding -- getting the information they're looking for.

BLACKWELL: All right, Ryan Nobles for us on Capitol Hill with the breaking news, thank you.

Let's bring in now Kim Wehle. She's a former assistant U.S. attorney and a law professor at the University of Baltimore.

Kim, welcome back.

Let's start here with just your reaction to the breaking news. The chairman, vice chair had promised that they would make good on an effort to hold these people accountable if they did not comply. They have now started the process of doing it.

[14:05:06]

KIM WEHLE, FORMER ASSOCIATE INDEPENDENT COUNSEL: Well, it's absolutely vital that they take this step.

We saw during the Trump administration the power of Congress to subpoena information behalf of the American people really watered down. That was one of the first charges in the first impeachment trial, was obstruction of Congress by former President Trump.

I think, in this moment, the game is around delay, because we have a midterm coming up in about a year. Some people will argue that just by virtue of gerrymandering in response to the new census numbers that the House could go back to Republicans.

And once that happens, the wheels of the January 6 commission will probably stall. I think, if this gets to court, the argument that Steve Bannon can invoke executive privilege on behalf -- or the former president could, is weak at best.In 2014, the United States Congress passed a statute saying that it's the incumbent president, that would be Joe Biden, who has the ultimate say on executive privilege claims, not former presidents.

So unless Donald Trump could win an argument that statute itself was unconstitutional, I think this is going to see the light of day, if there is time to the court system to get it done prior to the midterms.

CAMEROTA: But, Professor, just so I understand, the committee has subpoena power, as you say, but the enforcement, I mean, it sounds like for decades, this has not been enforced effectively.

So does this have teeth?

WEHLE: Yes, it definitely does.

And I think part of it, for decades, it hasn't needed to be enforced. That is, most of the time -- I mean, I worked on the Whitewater investigation, and the grand jury subpoenaed Bill Clinton, and he worked out a deal, even a sitting president.

So what we have seen in the past few years is just complete thumbing the nose, people's nose at Congress' subpoena power and saying, listen, we're not even going to work something out. That's why we are in this moment.

But the criminal statute does exist. It's the biggest weight of the three. There could have been a civil action filed. Congress has an inherent power to call the sergeant at arms to get people to appear. The criminal action is the big one. It carries up to a year in prison. And that would be Channing Phillips, the acting attorney -- U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, that would make that call, although, of course, it would be done in conjunction with Merrick Garland.

And I should also add, listen, it's unclear if executive privilege has this crime/fraud exception attached to it that does attach to attorney-client privilege. But if there are acts in here or information relating to potential crimes -- and inciting an insurrection is a crime, interfering with the counting of Electoral College votes is a crime -- then all bets could be off for Donald Trump.

That is, that kind of an exception could eclipse any claim of executive privilege, because the Supreme Court has held that the American people get to know what's going on when it comes to crimes in the White House. And we saw this with President Nixon.

BLACKWELL: We should also point out here that, although the attorney for Bannon claims this attorney-client privilege, Steve Bannon is not an attorney. So that may not be applicable here at all.

But let's move forward on looking down the line here. Let's say that the committee recommends this criminal contempt referral, the House sends it to DOJ, and Merrick Garland pursues this case. If even Steve Bannon is convicted, that still does not guarantee that the committee will get the deposition, will get the documents that they're looking for, does it?

WEHLE: No.

And the way that would be enforced is Steve Bannon -- Bannon would have to decide whether to defy the court, because it's essentially -- getting a court order, a criminal contempt order, he would be go to jail and sit in jail until he decided to testify. We saw this in the Whitewater investigation with Susan McDougal.

And she wouldn't respond to Ken Starr's subpoena, and she served, I think, 18 months in prison for noncompliance. But the U.S. attorney would probably impanel a grand jury to make, I think, a pretty short investigation as to whether Steve Bannon was actually in defiance of a lawful subpoena out of the committee, and then would charge him.

And then there would have to be a trial. So, yes, this takes some time. And as I said, I think this is a ploy to run out the clock, so that just there isn't any time to finish this process before the midterms, and then the Democrats conceivably could lose their majority. And this would all go by the wayside, which would be a tragedy for democracy itself and the American people, frankly. CAMEROTA: But, just very quickly, isn't that what might happen here? I mean, once something gets into the court system, isn't it possible that it's slow-rolled, I mean, not intentionally, but just courts -- court cases take a long time.

WEHLE: Absolutely.

[14:10:00]

I mean, that's a year from now. But judges do know how to make things go quickly. It's going to depend on what judge gets this case, and whether they're willing to move swiftly and how much the Bannon team can do to slow things down. He has constitutional rights when it comes to criminal prosecution.

So, absolutely, Alisyn, it could be a win in that regard. And this is why I have said many, many times the fate of American democracy is not about the next presidential election. It's about the midterms, and people should vote for those that are willing to not tolerate insurrections and the overthrow of the Constitution itself.

That is Republicans and Democrats who object to the lie that this was an invalid election and are willing to hold hands for democracy going forward.

CAMEROTA: Kim Wehle, great to talk to you. Thanks for walking us through all of this breaking news.

WEHLE: Thank you for having me, Alisyn.

BLACKWELL: Thanks, Professor.

Millions more Americans may be on the verge of becoming eligible for the next COVID shot. The FDA advisers are meeting right now to debate Moderna and Johnson & Johnson boosters.

And a fatal bow and arrow attack. Yes, a bow and arrow attack is being treated as an act of terrorism, with at least five people confirmed dead. We have got the latest for you next.

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[14:15:40]

CAMEROTA: The FDA is meeting right now on whether to authorize booster shots for the millions of Americans who got the Moderna vaccine. Tomorrow, they will debate Johnson & Johnson.

The advisers are also looking at the efficacy and safety of mixing and matching COVID vaccines.

BLACKWELL: And moments ago, President Biden reiterated his call for more Americans to get one of the vaccines, as just over half of the U.S. population is fully vaccinated.

CNN's Nick Watt is with us now. So, tell us about the FDA meeting and when we can expect a vote.

NICK WATT, CNN NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, Victor, we were expecting a vote probably some time after 4:00, but I don't know. They have been getting through the agenda pretty efficiently. So it might be sooner, lots of deep, detailed questioning.

So far, they have heard from representatives from Moderna, who say, listen, our vaccine holds up pretty well, but a booster is still beneficial, particularly with Delta around. They also heard from Israeli officials who rolled out boosters far wide and early. And those Israeli officials say, so far, safe and effective. It is going very well.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We can see you and hear you very well.

WATT (voice-over): FDA vaccine advisers meeting online for much of today, expected to vote very soon on Moderna vaccine booster shots.

DR. PETER MARKS, DIRECTOR, FDA CENTER FOR BIOLOGICS EVALUATION AND RESEARCH: The vaccine effectiveness against mild and moderate disease does appear to wane over time for the different vaccines.

WATT: Moderna is seeking something similar already authorized for Pfizer, boosters for the over-65s, all adults at high risk of severe disease and adults whose institutional or occupational exposure puts them at high risk of infection.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And what about the dose?

WATT: Third Moderna shots would be half the dose of the first and second.

The same advisers meet tomorrow to talk second shots of Johnson & Johnson, which could be a more complex discussion. The CDC would then need to sign off. Some wish all this went further.

DR. LEANA WEN, CNN MEDICAL ANALYST: A lot of people don't want to get sick. They don't want to get long-haul COVID. They also don't want to end up missing work or potentially infecting their family. And so give everybody the option to get that booster dose, I think, should actually be the recommendation.

WATT: Kyrie Irving, already benched by the Brooklyn Nets, finally confirmed:

KYRIE IRVING, BROOKLYN NETS: I chose to be unvaccinated. And that was my choice. And I would ask you all just to respect that choice. This is not a political thing here. And it's not about the NBA. It's not about any organization. It's really about my life and what I'm choosing to do.

WATT: But it's really not just about your life. Listen to this doctor in Idaho. DR. STEVEN NEMERSON, SAINT ALPHONSUS HEALTH SYSTEM: And, sadly,

today, I'm here to tell you that we have lost the war, that COVID is here to stay.

And the reason it is here to stay is because we cannot vaccinate enough of the public to fully eradicate the disease.

WATT: Hence vaccine mandates; 40 percent of TSA employees still haven't gotten the shot. They have until just before the busy Thanksgiving weekend to be fully vaccinated.

DAVID PEKOSKE, ADMINISTRATOR, TRANSPORTATION SECURITY ADMINISTRATION: You know, we are building contingency plans for if we do have some staffing shortages as a result of this, but I hope to avoid that.

WATT: For cops in Chicago, the deadline is midnight tonight. Their union doesn't like it.

JOHN CATANZARA, PRESIDENT, CHICAGO FRATERNAL ORDER OF POLICE: It's safe to say the city of Chicago will have a police force at 50 percent or less for this weekend coming up.

WATT: Big picture, Joe Biden's advisers claim this:

JEFF ZIENTS, WHITE HOUSE COVID-19 RESPONSE COORDINATOR: Thanks the president's leadership on vaccination requirements, we continue to make important progress.

WATT: On average, fewer than a quarter-million Americans are now getting their first shot every day. That's down another 18 percent from just last week.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

WATT: Now, a new NIH study says that mixing and matching vaccine brands between your first doses and your booster is safe and effective. But, today, the surgeon general, a little bit of caution. He said, let's just wait. The FDA advisers are going to be talking about that. Let's see what they say.

And news just in. FDA advisers are going to meet next month to discuss that very promising antiviral pill that could be used to treat COVID- 19 -- guys.

BLACKWELL: All right, a lot on their agenda. Nick Watt, thank you.

And President Biden just touted the progress his administration is claiming they have made against the virus. They say that both daily cases and hospitalizations are down across the country.

[14:20:05]

CAMEROTA: CNN chief White House correspondent Kaitlan Collins joins us now.

So, Kaitlan, what was the president's message to the public about this?

KAITLAN COLLINS, CNN CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: He's really eager to focus on the good numbers coming out of the pandemic, of course, some of those that Nick just reviewed there, as we were looking at what the national landscape really looks like and questions about whether or not this is the final surge that they're going to see in the United States.

But, of course, Alisyn and Victor, we know that there are some bad numbers that are also still plaguing this White House when it comes to the pandemic. And chief among them is that number of 66 million people who are eligible to get the vaccine that have still not yet chosen to do so.

And so, for part of this, President Biden was talking about something that, of course, we know, is a reversal in a position he held early on when he took office, which is a vaccine requirement for companies. And, of course, that is something the Labor Department is working on. They're hoping private companies will just choose on their own to put those mandates in place.

But President Biden was talking about what this looks like, and the effect that it has on the nation.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The plan I laid out in September is working. We're headed in the right direction. We have critical work to do, but we can't let up now. My team and I are doing everything we can.

But I'm calling on more businesses to step up. I'm calling on more parents to get their children vaccinated when they are eligible. And I'm asking everyone, everyone who hasn't gotten vaccinated, please get vaccinated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

COLLINS: And one thing to note on that, remember, in September, the president had announced that the Labor Department was going to draft that emergency ruling that said companies that had 100 or more employees, private companies, had to either get them vaccinated or test them on a weekly basis.

That is a review -- a review of that rule is being conducted right now. It hasn't actually been published to the federal register yet. So it's not actually in effect yet. But the White House is hoping that, of course, because companies know it is coming down the pipeline, they will go ahead and already start implementing those requirements.

BLACKWELL: Kaitlan, you also have new reporting, I understand, about the FDA and the White House's vetting process for the next potential commissioner.

COLLINS: Yes, it's been several months, of course, since Biden took office. And still there has been no name coming from this White House on a permanent FDA commissioner, which, of course, is a critical role.

And we have seen former commissioners that held that title and heard from people within the agency that say they do feel like they need permanent leadership at the helm, because, right now, it is an acting commissioner over at the FDA, Dr. Janet Woodcock, of course.

She is someone who earns high praise from a lot of her colleagues within the FDA, but she is someone the White House did not believe could ultimately get confirmed by senators on Capitol Hill if she was picked for the job.

But we are told the president is narrowing his selection of people who were up for this job, because he does have a deadline facing him of mid-November. And so one name that has been surfaced at the White House is closely vetting at this time is Dr. Rob Califf.

He has served as the FDA commissioner previously for a short period of time under the Obama administration. And he is now a name that has surfaced once again, as they have struggled to find someone who is not only qualified for this job that they want in this role, but that can also win the support of enough senators to get confirmed for this position.

So we may see some movement on that soon. But the White House says a final decision has still not been made on an FDA commissioner.

CAMEROTA: OK, Kaitlan Collins, thank you very much for all of that.

Joining us now to talk about all these developments, we have Dr. Ali Khan. He's the dean at the University of Nebraska Medical Center's College of Public Health.

Dr. Khan, always great to see you.

So, for people who can't keep track of the merits of Moderna vs. Pfizer vs. J&J, when do you need to booster, which ones are being authorized, at some point soon, do you think that there will be a mixing and matching of these different vaccines?

DR. ALI KHAN, FORMER CDC OFFICIAL: Oh, absolutely.

And what FDA is doing is, it's actually catching up to policy, Alisyn, catching up to practice. So, the policy is catching up the practice. Clinicians already are working with the people across the U.S. to make sure that they get their boosters, including if they had Moderna initially or if they had J&J.

So, over the next couple of days, we will clean this all up, harmonize all of these various recommendations, and have a single consistent policy.

BLACKWELL: Speaking of harmonizing, the last time the FDA went through this process of approving a booster for Pfizer, there were resignations, there were disagreements and reversals.

What are you expecting as they look through the steps with Moderna and J&J? Because the request for Moderna is narrower here, for a specific population to get the booster.

KHAN: Correct.

And it's consistent with what eventually happened with Pfizer. It's because there isn't a whole lot of data suggesting that Moderna loses a lot of its efficacy. And so they actually have even gone with half- a-dose.

For J&J, my expectation is that, while J&J may be approved for a second dose, the FDA also will say that your second dose should be with an mRNA vaccine.

[14:25:00]

CAMEROTA: Doctor, I want to ask you about something that Republican Congressman Jim Jordan floated this week on Twitter.

He thinks that his state of Ohio should ban all vaccine mandates, meaning all of the vaccines that all of us got as children in order to go to public school. I'm talking measles, mumps, rubella, diphtheria, polio, so that we didn't die or I guess lose the function of our limbs. He wants them to get rid of all of those mandates.

Why, I guess, and what would happen if that were to go into effect?

KHAN: I can't answer the why.

But this is a Pyrrhic victory to try to deny that an initial failed response has led to over 750,000 dead Americans. We have heard versions of this with it's no worse than the flu; 98, 99 percent of people survive with this. And why stop at vaccines, right? Why drunk -- why should we not allow people to drink and drive? Why should we have child car seat requirements, right?

Why stop there if we're going to talk about undermining public health? And this is a big concern for me, is that, yes, COVID is going to be deadly for Americans. But if we undermine public health, this is going to be even deadly for Americans long term.

BLACKWELL: You know, there's a doctor from Idaho who we have coming up in the next hour who says that, effectively, we have lost the war against COVID. And now we are destined, because there aren't enough people who've gotten vaccinated, to end this disease, that we are destined to live this endemic of COVID-19.

What does that look like? Is this an annual ebb and deadly flow of surges of new cases?

KHAN: So, Victor, I think we should be clear, Idaho has lost the war, right?

So, we see what freedom looks like in Idaho, so no hospital beds. So if you're going into the hospital with or without COVID, you're more likely to die. You have to leave the state to die. And health care workers are routinely harassed every day by patients and families. So, that's what it looks like in Idaho because they don't want to get

vaccinated and they don't want to wear masks. So, until we get 68 million people vaccinated, that's what we will see happening across the U.S. And you're absolutely spot on. All of these other diseases, respiratory diseases, cause surges and waves.

And we should expect to see this also with COVID, unless we get this under control.

CAMEROTA: All right, Dr. Ali Khan, we're out of time.

Do you have a mask you want to show us?

BLACKWELL: Of course we he does.

KHAN: I have a mask you, but can you see that?

BLACKWELL: Hashtag #getvaccinated.

CAMEROTA: OK.

KHAN: There you go. Get vaccinated, America.

CAMEROTA: OK. Mask on and get vaccinated. I like the double message.

Dr. Khan, thank you very much.

BLACKWELL: Thanks, Doctor.

KHAN: Always a pleasure. Stay safe.

CAMEROTA: You too.

BLACKWELL: All right.

CAMEROTA: OK, as the Virginia governor's race tightens in these final weeks, the DNC is going all in, announcing their largest investment ever in that state.

So, what does that mean for Democrats next?

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